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test of thermal pad on AMD

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May 16, 2004 6:25:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Lots of talk here recently about thermal pads and what is better etc. I've
seen big drops in temp's ditching the thermal pads and just using plain 'ol
white HS compound instead. Others claim you'll only see a minor change
so...

I just bought a Barton 2500+ on a chaintech 7NIF2 board for by brother. It
was a retail chip with a factory HSF. I just put it on as supplied and when
I booted it up, the idle temp was right at 50C in the bios. Seemed kinda
high but MBM5 said 40C so figured it was OK.

After I got it all set up, the system was pretty noisy from the fans so
wanted to try to quiet it down some. Removed the fan grills, added some
10ohm 1W resistors to the case fan and PSU fan etc. Rechecked and the CPU
temp was the same but now the CPU fan was the loudest one.

So I took the factory HS off and removed the pad. It wasn't like intel's
pad, more like a gooey piece of cheeze? Anyway removed the pad and sanded
the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I know HS compound
likes a smooth surface. The pad was so thick this didn't matter. After I
reinstalled the HS with plain white compound, the idle temp was 11C less,
down at 39C in the bios and 29C in MBM5. Now I could add a resistor to the
CPU fan, drop the RPM 1000 RPM and still is cooler (43C) than it was with
the pad and MUCH quieter!

So anyone installing a retail AMD chip, my advice is to ditch the pad, sand
the bottom of the HS on a piece of glass and throw on some white HS
compound and stay cool/quiet.
--

Stacey

More about : test thermal pad amd

Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 16, 2004 6:59:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Stacey <fotocord@yahoo.com> writes:
>I just bought a Barton 2500+ on a chaintech 7NIF2 board for by brother. It
>was a retail chip with a factory HSF. I just put it on as supplied and when
>I booted it up, the idle temp was right at 50C in the bios. Seemed kinda
>high but MBM5 said 40C so figured it was OK.

I've got the same but with ECS N2U400-A board. Room temp was 18C,
BIOS said cpu was about 48C, no case fans, side off the case. I
turned a big room fan against the open side of the case and it
dropped to the lower 40's. Those are about the same as my AMD 2000
with a Vantec TMD Aeroflow and the white goop.

>So I took the factory HS off and removed the pad. It wasn't like intel's
>pad, more like a gooey piece of cheeze?

Instructions said mine was a phase change material, water clear,
looked less than 1mm thick of rubber cement. Trying to get that
clip on the heat sink latched down was impressive, Even with a
screwdriver to apply pressure I couldn't get it to latch. Then
someone banged on the door and I had to move the case. The heat
sink fell off in the process. When I saw this the second time the
material had changed to a dark grey looking material with a big
impression in it where I had been applying all the pressure. I
wasn't sure whether it was one-time-only or not but I went ahead
and got up on the table with the screwdriver and REALLY applied the
pressure, along with prying the edge of the clip to let it slip
into place. Finally it popped on there.

>So anyone installing a retail AMD chip, my advice is to ditch the pad,
>sand the bottom of the HS on a piece of glass and throw on some white
>HS compound and stay cool/quiet.

I didn't notice the bottom of the sink being rough. Maybe I just
didn't look closely enough. What did you use for polishing compound?

But I think I'm leaning in the direction of a big house fan that
will be ducted to drive air through the cases.

While I was doing all this, and listening to the old house fan
roaring away, the house down the street caught fire. That reminded
me of an old fan a friend and I had mounted in a window decades ago
to pump the hot august air out of the house. The fan made a lot
of noise and fortunately we happened to be in the kitchen looking
at it when it went up in flames.

Does anyone know of a relatively cheap smoke detector like device
BUT it will switch off maybe 1000 watts of power when it thinks
that something has caught fire? I'm surprised that there isn't
something like that out there that I've seen. I'm really not wanting
to come home some evening and discover that a fan failed, burned,
and took the whole place with it.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 16, 2004 8:16:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Sun, 16 May 2004 02:25:31 -0400, Stacey <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Lots of talk here recently about thermal pads and what is better etc. I've
>seen big drops in temp's ditching the thermal pads and just using plain 'ol
>white HS compound instead. Others claim you'll only see a minor change
>so...
>
>I just bought a Barton 2500+ on a chaintech 7NIF2 board for by brother. It
>was a retail chip with a factory HSF. I just put it on as supplied and when
>I booted it up, the idle temp was right at 50C in the bios. Seemed kinda
>high but MBM5 said 40C so figured it was OK.
>
>After I got it all set up, the system was pretty noisy from the fans so
>wanted to try to quiet it down some. Removed the fan grills, added some
>10ohm 1W resistors to the case fan and PSU fan etc. Rechecked and the CPU
>temp was the same but now the CPU fan was the loudest one.
>
>So I took the factory HS off and removed the pad. It wasn't like intel's
>pad, more like a gooey piece of cheeze? Anyway removed the pad and sanded
>the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I know HS compound
>likes a smooth surface. The pad was so thick this didn't matter. After I
>reinstalled the HS with plain white compound, the idle temp was 11C less,
>down at 39C in the bios and 29C in MBM5. Now I could add a resistor to the
>CPU fan, drop the RPM 1000 RPM and still is cooler (43C) than it was with
>the pad and MUCH quieter!
>
>So anyone installing a retail AMD chip, my advice is to ditch the pad, sand
>the bottom of the HS on a piece of glass and throw on some white HS
>compound and stay cool/quiet.

You're right, the original TIM is horrible, but also consider that the
original TIM may take several days to reach max efficiency, and heatsink
surface may vary... none are what I'd call "great" but some a lot rougher
than others. Everyone should get good results following your method but
some may see less drop in temp than you did.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 17, 2004 1:43:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Stacey wrote:

> Anyway removed the pad and sanded
> the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I know HS compound
> likes a smooth surface.

What grit sandpaper did you use?

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo
May 17, 2004 1:43:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

sooky grumper wrote:

> Stacey wrote:
>
>> Anyway removed the pad and sanded
>> the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I know HS compound
>> likes a smooth surface.
>
> What grit sandpaper did you use?
>

Started with 120, then 220 then 400. Put the sandpaper on some fairly thick
glass to make sure it was flat. It doesn't have to be polished, just
smooth.
--

Stacey
May 17, 2004 3:30:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

~misfit~ wrote:

> Stacey wrote:

>
> Not a fair test. The pad needs a few days of hard work to heat up and
> squeeze out the excess material. If you'd run SETI for a week with the
> pad, checked temps, then tried goo it would have been valuable data, as it
> is, it's junk science.
> --


It ran 24/7 for 2 days, how long does it need to run to -start- working
right?

BTW have you ever looked at the surface on the bottom of the newer HS's they
give you in the retail box? Looks like it was surfaced with a 40 grit
grinder.

--

Stacey
May 17, 2004 7:34:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I did something similar with my Intel 2.4B processor. Before I lapped the
stock HS, I checked it with a straight-edge, and there was a considerable
concavity (is that a word) in the center of the HS. After lapping the HS,
and replacing the TIM with Arctic Silver 3, the temps dropped by about 10
degrees. This was on a unit that had been running for several weeks prior
to my hacking around on it.

Clint

"~misfit~" <misfit61nz@yahoomung.co.nz> wrote in message
news:9TUpc.6137$XI4.218470@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Stacey wrote:
> > Lots of talk here recently about thermal pads and what is better etc.
> > I've seen big drops in temp's ditching the thermal pads and just
> > using plain 'ol white HS compound instead. Others claim you'll only
> > see a minor change so...
> >
> > I just bought a Barton 2500+ on a chaintech 7NIF2 board for by
> > brother. It was a retail chip with a factory HSF. I just put it on as
> > supplied and when I booted it up, the idle temp was right at 50C in
> > the bios. Seemed kinda high but MBM5 said 40C so figured it was OK.
> >
> > After I got it all set up, the system was pretty noisy from the fans
> > so wanted to try to quiet it down some. Removed the fan grills, added
> > some 10ohm 1W resistors to the case fan and PSU fan etc. Rechecked
> > and the CPU temp was the same but now the CPU fan was the loudest one.
> >
> > So I took the factory HS off and removed the pad. It wasn't like
> > intel's pad, more like a gooey piece of cheeze? Anyway removed the
> > pad and sanded the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I
> > know HS compound likes a smooth surface. The pad was so thick this
> > didn't matter. After I reinstalled the HS with plain white compound,
> > the idle temp was 11C less, down at 39C in the bios and 29C in MBM5.
> > Now I could add a resistor to the CPU fan, drop the RPM 1000 RPM and
> > still is cooler (43C) than it was with the pad and MUCH quieter!
> >
> > So anyone installing a retail AMD chip, my advice is to ditch the
> > pad, sand the bottom of the HS on a piece of glass and throw on some
> > white HS compound and stay cool/quiet.
>
> Not a fair test. The pad needs a few days of hard work to heat up and
> squeeze out the excess material. If you'd run SETI for a week with the
pad,
> checked temps, then tried goo it would have been valuable data, as it is,
> it's junk science.
> --
> ~misfit~
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 17, 2004 8:41:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Stacey wrote:

> Lots of talk here recently about thermal pads and what is better etc. I've
> seen big drops in temp's ditching the thermal pads and just using plain 'ol
> white HS compound instead. Others claim you'll only see a minor change
> so...
>
> I just bought a Barton 2500+ on a chaintech 7NIF2 board for by brother. It
> was a retail chip with a factory HSF. I just put it on as supplied and when
> I booted it up, the idle temp was right at 50C in the bios. Seemed kinda
> high but MBM5 said 40C so figured it was OK.
>
> After I got it all set up, the system was pretty noisy from the fans so
> wanted to try to quiet it down some. Removed the fan grills, added some
> 10ohm 1W resistors to the case fan and PSU fan etc. Rechecked and the CPU
> temp was the same but now the CPU fan was the loudest one.
>
> So I took the factory HS off and removed the pad. It wasn't like intel's
> pad, more like a gooey piece of cheeze? Anyway removed the pad and sanded
> the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I know HS compound
> likes a smooth surface. The pad was so thick this didn't matter. After I
> reinstalled the HS with plain white compound, the idle temp was 11C less,
> down at 39C in the bios and 29C in MBM5. Now I could add a resistor to the
> CPU fan, drop the RPM 1000 RPM and still is cooler (43C) than it was with
> the pad and MUCH quieter!
>
> So anyone installing a retail AMD chip, my advice is to ditch the pad, sand
> the bottom of the HS on a piece of glass and throw on some white HS
> compound and stay cool/quiet.

I replaced a customers XP 1800+ with a 2200+ the other day and the cpu
temp at idle went from 60C to 45C

--
-Luke-
If cars had advanced at the same rate as Micr0$oft technology, they'd be
flying by now.
But who wants a car that crashes 8 times a day?
Registered Linux User #345134
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 17, 2004 8:41:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

amd's web site recommends pads, not grease.

If grease is better, why are they recommending pads?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 17, 2004 8:41:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I'm glad this topic came up. I wanted to ask all of you if you've
ever seen a degadation in performance of AMD's thermal pads. I built
an Athlon XP 2200 in April 2003 using the stock HSF and pad along with
standard case fans and no overclocking, and it's been 24/7 ever since.

A year ago the idle temp ranged between 30-40 deg C depending on the
ambient room temp, and full sustained load temp of 47 at most. Now in
the past month or two the idle temp tends to hang aroung 40-45 and the
full load temp has gone up to 52.

I cleaned out the case and HSF fins of dust multiple times and it
didn't make a difference. The fan RPMs are still reporting 4000 rpm
in the BIOS so I don't think it's the fan.

Is there a limitation in the life of AMD's thermal pads? I have fears
that it's thermal transfer properties are going to break down
completely. Should I remove the HSF and pad, sand it smooth, and use
some Artic Silver?

Thanks for any comments.


On Mon, 17 May 2004 16:41:46 +0800, "beav AT wn DoT com DoT au" <"beav
AT wn DoT com DoT au"> wrote:

>Stacey wrote:
>
>> Lots of talk here recently about thermal pads and what is better etc. I've
>> seen big drops in temp's ditching the thermal pads and just using plain 'ol
>> white HS compound instead. Others claim you'll only see a minor change
>> so...
>>
>> I just bought a Barton 2500+ on a chaintech 7NIF2 board for by brother. It
>> was a retail chip with a factory HSF. I just put it on as supplied and when
>> I booted it up, the idle temp was right at 50C in the bios. Seemed kinda
>> high but MBM5 said 40C so figured it was OK.
>>
>> After I got it all set up, the system was pretty noisy from the fans so
>> wanted to try to quiet it down some. Removed the fan grills, added some
>> 10ohm 1W resistors to the case fan and PSU fan etc. Rechecked and the CPU
>> temp was the same but now the CPU fan was the loudest one.
>>
>> So I took the factory HS off and removed the pad. It wasn't like intel's
>> pad, more like a gooey piece of cheeze? Anyway removed the pad and sanded
>> the bottom of the HS smooth, it was pretty rough and I know HS compound
>> likes a smooth surface. The pad was so thick this didn't matter. After I
>> reinstalled the HS with plain white compound, the idle temp was 11C less,
>> down at 39C in the bios and 29C in MBM5. Now I could add a resistor to the
>> CPU fan, drop the RPM 1000 RPM and still is cooler (43C) than it was with
>> the pad and MUCH quieter!
>>
>> So anyone installing a retail AMD chip, my advice is to ditch the pad, sand
>> the bottom of the HS on a piece of glass and throw on some white HS
>> compound and stay cool/quiet.
>
>I replaced a customers XP 1800+ with a 2200+ the other day and the cpu
>temp at idle went from 60C to 45C
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 12:00:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Don Taylor wrote:
> Does anyone know of a relatively cheap smoke detector like device
> BUT it will switch off maybe 1000 watts of power when it thinks
> that something has caught fire? I'm surprised that there isn't
> something like that out there that I've seen. I'm really not wanting
> to come home some evening and discover that a fan failed, burned,
> and took the whole place with it.

Cheap smoke alarm with a relay? Maybe you'd want some help with keeping the
relay contacts connected - I suspect it would eat batteries. The other
concern is of course fail safety... no point in having a battery open
circuit the relay - when the battery runs out, it'll close again.

Besides, if the thing is on fire, there seems little point in switching it
off. Kind of a bit late?

Ben
--
I'm not just a number. To many, I'm known as a String...
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 12:00:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Ben Pope" <spam@hotmail.com> writes:
>Don Taylor wrote:
>> Does anyone know of a relatively cheap smoke detector like device
>> BUT it will switch off maybe 1000 watts of power when it thinks
>> that something has caught fire?
....
>Cheap smoke alarm with a relay? Maybe you'd want some help with keeping the
>relay contacts connected - I suspect it would eat batteries. The other
>concern is of course fail safety... no point in having a battery open
>circuit the relay - when the battery runs out, it'll close again.

>Besides, if the thing is on fire, there seems little point in switching it
>off. Kind of a bit late?

I was thinking that cutting off the power might help stop feeding the
fire as the fan was going up in flames.

I actually observed this happen with a house fan a few decades ago.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 12:51:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 17 May 2004 12:36:13 -0700, motts@nospam.com wrote:

>
>I'm glad this topic came up. I wanted to ask all of you if you've
>ever seen a degadation in performance of AMD's thermal pads. I built
>an Athlon XP 2200 in April 2003 using the stock HSF and pad along with
>standard case fans and no overclocking, and it's been 24/7 ever since.
>
>A year ago the idle temp ranged between 30-40 deg C depending on the
>ambient room temp, and full sustained load temp of 47 at most. Now in
>the past month or two the idle temp tends to hang aroung 40-45 and the
>full load temp has gone up to 52.
>
>I cleaned out the case and HSF fins of dust multiple times and it
>didn't make a difference. The fan RPMs are still reporting 4000 rpm
>in the BIOS so I don't think it's the fan.
>
>Is there a limitation in the life of AMD's thermal pads? I have fears
>that it's thermal transfer properties are going to break down
>completely. Should I remove the HSF and pad, sand it smooth, and use
>some Artic Silver?

Yes, if you suspect that the TIM isn't working effectively you "COULD"
take the 'sink off, thoroughly clean off original pad material (petroleum
solvet works well for this, but do not scrape with a metal object). If
you then find the 'sink bottom to be rough you might mildly lap it with
fine-grit sandpaper (at least 320 grit or finer for the final pass).

If you lack any polishing compound then any generic thermal compound or
especially arctic alumina will polish it up some... not as good as many
polishing compounds, but "good enough", and the residue is even
beneficial, doesn't need thoroughly cleaned off but if it remains in the
tiny crevaces of the metal it's a GOOD thing.

However, it is not necessary to use arctic silver. With a heatsink having
a good surface the difference in using arctic silver isn't significant.

On the other hand, a full load temp of 52C is not too hot, it should still
be completely stable. There are also other reasons why the temp might
read differently, for example a bios update can change the temp offset
used by the bios and immediately show a temp difference similar to what
you've seen. If you were overclocking it would be more of a concern but
it may not be worth the bother to do anything at 52C.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 12:51:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Thanks for the response. Maybe I should leave it alone. I know that
the 52 is not considered hot since AMD's spec sheets say 90 as a max,
and the machine has always been completely stable. I was just
concerned that the change is an indicator of pad breakdown and I'm
scared that it will breakdown completely. I never updated the BIOS
since there were no updates from the MB manufactuer in the past year.
This is strictly some kind of breakdown occurring in the pad and/or
HSF. I never touched the CPU/HSF after I built the machine, other
than spraying air at it to blow out the dust from the fan blades and
fins.

I was at Fry's yesterday looking at new HSF assemblies and considering
some of the simpler ones, but they are all so large that I'm not sure
if they'll fit. The only way to test them is to actually install them
and if it turns out they don't fit then I'll be forced to go back to
the stock HSF and follow your procedure below.


On Mon, 17 May 2004 20:51:33 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>Yes, if you suspect that the TIM isn't working effectively you "COULD"
>take the 'sink off, thoroughly clean off original pad material (petroleum
>solvet works well for this, but do not scrape with a metal object). If
>you then find the 'sink bottom to be rough you might mildly lap it with
>fine-grit sandpaper (at least 320 grit or finer for the final pass).
>
>If you lack any polishing compound then any generic thermal compound or
>especially arctic alumina will polish it up some... not as good as many
>polishing compounds, but "good enough", and the residue is even
>beneficial, doesn't need thoroughly cleaned off but if it remains in the
>tiny crevaces of the metal it's a GOOD thing.
>
>However, it is not necessary to use arctic silver. With a heatsink having
>a good surface the difference in using arctic silver isn't significant.
>
>On the other hand, a full load temp of 52C is not too hot, it should still
>be completely stable. There are also other reasons why the temp might
>read differently, for example a bios update can change the temp offset
>used by the bios and immediately show a temp difference similar to what
>you've seen. If you were overclocking it would be more of a concern but
>it may not be worth the bother to do anything at 52C.
May 18, 2004 2:18:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

motts@nospam.com wrote:

>
> Is there a limitation in the life of AMD's thermal pads? I have fears
> that it's thermal transfer properties are going to break down
> completely. Should I remove the HSF and pad, sand it smooth, and use
> some Artic Silver?
>


That's what it sounds like. I was shocked at how course the finish was on
the HS, very little of the surface would ever touch the die prior to
sanding it smooth. I'd guess it would work as well now with no thermal
compound as it did with the original surface finish and their pad.
--

Stacey
May 18, 2004 2:23:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

~misfit~ wrote:

> Stacey wrote:

>
>> BTW have you ever looked at the surface on the bottom of the newer
>> HS's they give you in the retail box? Looks like it was surfaced with
>> a 40 grit grinder.
>
> Yep, they're pretty rough alright.
>

Maybe that's the real reason why they are saying not to use paste anymore?
The retail HS's are so rough it wouldn't work?

Seriously, I would bet a lapped HS would cool as well as this rough one did
with a pad. But no, I'm not going to test that on this machine. :-)

--

Stacey
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 2:51:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 17 May 2004 15:11:21 -0700, motts@nospam.com wrote:

>
>Thanks for the response. Maybe I should leave it alone. I know that
>the 52 is not considered hot since AMD's spec sheets say 90 as a max,
>and the machine has always been completely stable. I was just
>concerned that the change is an indicator of pad breakdown and I'm
>scared that it will breakdown completely. I never updated the BIOS
>since there were no updates from the MB manufactuer in the past year.
>This is strictly some kind of breakdown occurring in the pad and/or
>HSF. I never touched the CPU/HSF after I built the machine, other
>than spraying air at it to blow out the dust from the fan blades and
>fins.
>
>I was at Fry's yesterday looking at new HSF assemblies and considering
>some of the simpler ones, but they are all so large that I'm not sure
>if they'll fit. The only way to test them is to actually install them
>and if it turns out they don't fit then I'll be forced to go back to
>the stock HSF and follow your procedure below.
>

If it's going to worry you or if you see a continual decline in thermal
transfer, that is, ever-increasing temp, then it may be worthwhile to
remove 'sink, lap and use compound just for that piece of mind. Although
previously I wrote that Arctic Silver isn't necessary, there is a benefit
to synthetic compounds in general, that in long term use on hot small CPU
cores they tend to stay mixed, not separating so readily as silicone based
compound can. Generally with a heatsink using silicone compound and a
very hot CPU with such small core area (Athlon or Duron) I'd plan to
reapply compound every 18 months or so, but certainly it depends how hot
it gets... some of my boxes run full load for hours on end and certainly
generate more heat than others.

As for the Frys heatsinks, there are no Frys here and i"m not familiar
with their selection but in general it's good to buy biggest 'sink that
will fit, one that accepts an 80x25mm fan. Larger metal surface area
(will an all copper bottom) allows lower CFM airflow, in conjunction with
the large fan, can result in quieter operation, longer fan lifespan, and
often a longer interval between cleaning.

AMD designates what's called a "keep out zone", which is the area around
the CPU socket in which manufacturer of motherboard should avoid placement
of any components that interfere with heatsinks meeting same keep out zone
specification. Generally most 'sinks do meet this, with notable exception
of Thermalright SLK-900 and possibly others with wing-like fins, possibly
the Zalmans also. A careful measurement of the board should determine if
a 'sink will fit, you can get specs on the 'sink measurement at it's
manufacturer's website or many online vendors. In some situations I'll
get a 'sink knowing it's barely too big and simply take a hacksaw,
grinder, or dremel tool to the conflicting area on the 'sink, as I really
like to use biggest 'sink possible within reason, due to aforementioned
benefit of allowing selection of optimal fan.

Still, with your 'sink having degraded performance yet still keeping CPU
at 52C, you should be content with that heatsink, there's no benefit to
lower CPU temp unless you want to push the theoretical limits of CPU
lifespan and try to use it for a couple decades or longer.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 5:26:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 17 May 2004 19:32:46 -0500, dont@agora.rdrop.com (Don Taylor)
wrote:

>"Ben Pope" <spam@hotmail.com> writes:
>>Don Taylor wrote:
>>> Does anyone know of a relatively cheap smoke detector like device
>>> BUT it will switch off maybe 1000 watts of power when it thinks
>>> that something has caught fire?
>...
>>Cheap smoke alarm with a relay? Maybe you'd want some help with keeping the
>>relay contacts connected - I suspect it would eat batteries. The other
>>concern is of course fail safety... no point in having a battery open
>>circuit the relay - when the battery runs out, it'll close again.
>
>>Besides, if the thing is on fire, there seems little point in switching it
>>off. Kind of a bit late?
>
>I was thinking that cutting off the power might help stop feeding the
>fire as the fan was going up in flames.
>
>I actually observed this happen with a house fan a few decades ago.

Why not just put a solenoid valve on a fire extinguisher and connect that
to the fire alarm?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 5:26:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

kony <spam@spam.com> writes:
>Don Taylor wrote:
>>"Ben Pope" <spam@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>Don Taylor wrote:
>>>> Does anyone know of a relatively cheap smoke detector like device
>>>> BUT it will switch off maybe 1000 watts of power when it thinks
>>>> that something has caught fire?
>>>Besides, if the thing is on fire, there seems little point in switching it
>>>off. Kind of a bit late?
>>I was thinking that cutting off the power might help stop feeding the
>>fire as the fan was going up in flames.
>>I actually observed this happen with a house fan a few decades ago.

>Why not just put a solenoid valve on a fire extinguisher and connect that
>to the fire alarm?

I'm trying to get somewhere in that direction. Since I think we would
agree that the probability of fire is very small but we want the
probability it will successfully work if there is a fire to be very
high then I'm a little hesitant to believe in a hobby-modification
project to make this work. I am still looking at all the possible
solutions to this though. Thanks
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 7:35:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

~Aart wrote:
> amd's web site recommends pads, not grease.
>
> If grease is better, why are they recommending pads?

Less likely to bugger it up with a simple pad...


--
remove the underscores to unmung the email address...
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 3:34:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Stacey" <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2gqpnbF54e7dU1@uni-berlin.de...
> ~misfit~ wrote:
>
> > Stacey wrote:
>
> >
> > Not a fair test. The pad needs a few days of hard work to heat up and
> > squeeze out the excess material. If you'd run SETI for a week with the
> > pad, checked temps, then tried goo it would have been valuable data, as
it
> > is, it's junk science.
> > --
>
>
> It ran 24/7 for 2 days, how long does it need to run to -start- working
> right?
>
> BTW have you ever looked at the surface on the bottom of the newer HS's
they
> give you in the retail box? Looks like it was surfaced with a 40 grit
> grinder.


The fit and finish of AMD retail heatsinks is not great. The heatsink that
came with a recent XP3200+ does not even have have a copper slug inserted
into the aluminum heatsink. Lapping with wet/dry sandpaper up to 800 grit
brought load temperatures down to 50-52°C, using ASIII, with the standard
60mm 3200RPM fan.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 7:42:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:bepia018e7rrqgpsg5713hjci7jf34ecjo@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 17 May 2004 19:32:46 -0500, dont@agora.rdrop.com (Don Taylor)
> wrote:
>
> >"Ben Pope" <spam@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>Don Taylor wrote:
> >>> Does anyone know of a relatively cheap smoke detector like device
> >>> BUT it will switch off maybe 1000 watts of power when it thinks
> >>> that something has caught fire?
> >...
> >>Cheap smoke alarm with a relay? Maybe you'd want some help with keeping
the
> >>relay contacts connected - I suspect it would eat batteries. The other
> >>concern is of course fail safety... no point in having a battery open
> >>circuit the relay - when the battery runs out, it'll close again.
> >
> >>Besides, if the thing is on fire, there seems little point in switching
it
> >>off. Kind of a bit late?
> >
> >I was thinking that cutting off the power might help stop feeding the
> >fire as the fan was going up in flames.
> >
> >I actually observed this happen with a house fan a few decades ago.
>
> Why not just put a solenoid valve on a fire extinguisher and connect that
> to the fire alarm?
Such measures are applied in industrial installations (like in electricity
cabinets of large machines in a factory - where water sprinklers are not a
wise anti-flame option). In non electrical / non chemical environements
water sprinklers remotely and automaticly switched open (for EE guys, open
means there's a current of water) by a relay connected to the fire / heat
alarm. Im sure there are trip-switches that also disconnect elevators and
such when there's a building fire...
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 7:50:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 17 May 2004 15:24:12 -0400, "~Aart" <bogus@nowhere.net> wrote:

>amd's web site recommends pads, not grease.
>
>If grease is better, why are they recommending pads?
>

another factor here in AMD recommending against "grease" is the
electrical conductivity of the silver-based compounds, easily squeezed
(or intentionally over-applied) onto the conductive pads for "L"
points and/or topside resistive and capacitive components near the die

comments?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 8:42:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"FoneClone" wrote:
> "~Aart" wrote:
>
> >amd's web site recommends pads, not grease.
> >
> >If grease is better, why are they recommending pads?
> >
>
> another factor here in AMD recommending against "grease" is the
> electrical conductivity of the silver-based compounds, easily squeezed
> (or intentionally over-applied) onto the conductive pads for "L"
> points and/or topside resistive and capacitive components near the die
>
> comments?

Yes, this comment from the makers of Arctic Silver in regards to the FALSE claim of electrical
conductivity with their product:

"Not Electrically Conductive:
Arctic Silver 5 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity.
(While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 5 should be kept
away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. While it is not electrically conductive, the compound is
very slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridges two close-proximity electrical
paths.)"

Jon
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 18, 2004 9:01:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 15:50:10 GMT, FoneClone <connected@offthehook.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 17 May 2004 15:24:12 -0400, "~Aart" <bogus@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>>amd's web site recommends pads, not grease.
>>
>>If grease is better, why are they recommending pads?
>>
>
>another factor here in AMD recommending against "grease" is the
>electrical conductivity of the silver-based compounds, easily squeezed
>(or intentionally over-applied) onto the conductive pads for "L"
>points and/or topside resistive and capacitive components near the die
>
>comments?

AMD specifies the simplest, specific solution that is adequate for the
task. Given the large variations in assembler skill and experience there
is a vast number of ways someone (if left to their own methods) "could"
cause problems.... I've even heard of people mistakenly using epoxy then
pulling the core apart the next time they removed the 'sink. With AMD
specifying a fixed constant they have reduced the risk of damage, as much
as reasonably possible.

Remember that they are not concerned about "optimal", only (proven)
adequate cooling. AMD provides a 'sink and interface that is adequate
if chassis airflow and ambient temp is reasonable. People report 55C CPU
temp but that is not too hot for a CPU running at stock speed. Through
more effort the CPU temp may be lowered to 40C, but without specific
reason for doing so it was just a waste of time. However there are good,
specific reasons for doing so, for example if the thermal interface is
more efficient then it allows somewhat lower airflow, lower
noise/wear/dust for same resulting CPU temp... so for that example the
goal wasn't even lower temp, just quieter operation with temp remaining
within margin for stability. Another reason may be overclocking, but
that's a whole topic in itself.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 20, 2004 3:54:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:01:18 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>...
>Remember that they are not concerned about "optimal", only (proven)
>adequate cooling. AMD provides a 'sink and interface that is adequate
>if chassis airflow and ambient temp is reasonable. People report 55C CPU
>temp but that is not too hot for a CPU running at stock speed. Through
>more effort the CPU temp may be lowered to 40C, but without specific
>reason for doing so it was just a waste of time. However there are good,
>specific reasons for doing so, for example if the thermal interface is
>more efficient then it allows somewhat lower airflow, lower
>noise/wear/dust for same resulting CPU temp... so for that example the
>goal wasn't even lower temp, just quieter operation with temp remaining
>within margin for stability. Another reason may be overclocking, but
>that's a whole topic in itself.

I just put a thermalright heatsink and 92mm panaflo high speed fan on
an amd64 2800 (1.8ghz). Can you say overkill ? LOL. Luckily the
Aopen AK86-L motherboard does have silent tek that monitors cpu
temperature and can automatically adjust the cpu fan speed. The
latest bios also enables cool n quiet technology. I get sub 30C idle
temps and turn down the fan to about 80% with just the silent tek.
Haven't played with the cool and quiet yet, but not bad for plain
white goop.
May 21, 2004 3:32:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> Through
> more effort the CPU temp may be lowered to 40C, but without specific
> reason for doing so it was just a waste of time. However there are good,
> specific reasons for doing so, for example if the thermal interface is
> more efficient then it allows somewhat lower airflow, lower
> noise/wear/dust for same resulting CPU temp...

That was my goal. After tweaking the heatsink I was able to drop the fan
speed 1000 RPM with no cooling problems.
--

Stacey
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 31, 2004 4:50:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

> Such measures are applied in industrial installations (like in electricity
> cabinets of large machines in a factory - where water sprinklers are not a
> wise anti-flame option). In non electrical / non chemical environements
> water sprinklers remotely and automaticly switched open (for EE guys, open
> means there's a current of water) by a relay connected to the fire / heat
> alarm. Im sure there are trip-switches that also disconnect elevators and
> such when there's a building fire...
>

Seen a LOT of panels/Other for the Nuclear & PetroChem industry's (cant say
I ever seen any automated fire ext kit for a sole peice of electronics)..

In reality, If something is allowed to get hot enough to burn your house
through an electrical fault (dead short) then it means that the consumer
unit is not properly set up. Once a fire is started removing electricity
(for most things that we have) will not stop the fire. Normally IF there is
a fire you would combat the whole area and not just the specific fire point
of detection (speaking about automated fire systems here).

But I would need to wonder HOW his pc burning (probably have 5-10 fuses
before it gets to the power strip) will spread to other things in the house.

Metal (normally metal) cases generally dont burn well, nor does the things
inside of a case.

My suggestion, Get proper electrical wiring.
May 31, 2004 4:50:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:50:45 +0100, "rstlne" <.@text.news.virgin.net>
wrote:


>
>But I would need to wonder HOW his pc burning (probably have 5-10 fuses
>before it gets to the power strip) will spread to other things in the house.
>
>Metal (normally metal) cases generally dont burn well, nor does the things
>inside of a case.
>
>My suggestion, Get proper electrical wiring.
>

I read an article about the accumulation of cat5 wire in office
buildings as successive occupants add their own cables, but leave the
old stuff in place. Apparently the insulation on the wires spreads
fires all over the place. I guess they need better insulation fire
ratings.

a bit off topic, just a FYI ;) 
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 31, 2004 4:08:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.amd.thunderbird,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"rstlne" <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote in message
news:ljvuc.595$cs4.259@newsfe4-gui...
> > Such measures are applied in industrial installations (like in
electricity
> > cabinets of large machines in a factory - where water sprinklers are not
a
> > wise anti-flame option). In non electrical / non chemical environements
> > water sprinklers remotely and automaticly switched open (for EE guys,
open
> > means there's a current of water) by a relay connected to the fire /
heat
> > alarm. Im sure there are trip-switches that also disconnect elevators
and
> > such when there's a building fire...
> >
>
> Seen a LOT of panels/Other for the Nuclear & PetroChem industry's (cant
say
> I ever seen any automated fire ext kit for a sole peice of electronics)..
>
> In reality, If something is allowed to get hot enough to burn your house
> through an electrical fault (dead short) then it means that the consumer
> unit is not properly set up. Once a fire is started removing electricity
> (for most things that we have) will not stop the fire. Normally IF there
is
> a fire you would combat the whole area and not just the specific fire
point
> of detection (speaking about automated fire systems here).
Electrical fault can also be an arc - which means there's an ongoing spark
and heat source. Generally speaking, most of electrical components are in
some way or another flame retraded (all PCBs have UL-94 V-0 marking),
electric outlets should be FR-HIPS or melamine, cables are (intrinsically)
flame retarded PVC etc...
>
> But I would need to wonder HOW his pc burning (probably have 5-10 fuses
> before it gets to the power strip) will spread to other things in the
house.
>
> Metal (normally metal) cases generally dont burn well, nor does the things
> inside of a case.
Aluminum burns like hell(fire) ;-) steel (or copper) doesn't. Think about
airplane burning - it's not just the fuel, it's the whole fuselage.
>
> My suggestion, Get proper electrical wiring.
Agreed. And standard components (UL, CE, TUV marks)
>
>
!