Turbulent flow is better than laminar flow to cool warm su..

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Here are some interesting webpages that should convince
you that turbulent flow is better for cooling than laminar flow:

Let's start with a source a homebuider would
appreciate - http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/

A quote from the above webpage:

"Turbulent air cools better.
Say, for sake of argument, you have a simple tube
with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls air from
one side of the tube, and blows into the other.
If you have a hot component on the exhaust side
of the fan, it will be more efficiently cooled
than on the intake side. This is because the air
on the exhaust side of the fan is more turbulent.
For lack of a better explanation, the loops and
whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface
pick up more heat. The effective surface area of
the object is increased. (Actually, it was explained
to me by saying the effective surface area of the
air is increased.) The total volume of airflow
remains the same, but turbulent air just cools better."

If you want to pay more than $100 for a book or
monograph on heat transfer, you can find a multitude
of very academic books on turbulent flow and heat
transfer. Here's a blurb about one in the following
webpage -
http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion
of liquids and gases playing the role of the heat-
transfer medium in thermal systems. The complexity
of turbulent flow and the importance of hydrodynamics
and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation
by the Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of
this problem was directly linked with the determination
of the reaction of flow in the boundary layer to the
effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included
elevated degree of turbulence of the external flow as
well as strong acceleration and turbulization of flow
near the wall by surface roughness. The material in
this volume shows that it is possible to control the
efficiency of turbulent transfer when the vortical
structure of the turbulent flow is known."

You think this investigation of augmentation of
turbulent flow is to *reduce* heat transfer? I don't
think so. But read the book to be sure. :)

And here's a nice little webpage -
http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html . It's about
water cooling, but it applies to air cooling as well.
Here's a quote from it:

"Boundary Layers
When there is fluid flow across a surface, a velocity
boundary layer must develop. If the flow is in the
'laminar' flow regime, then the flow velocity in the
fluid at the surface is zero. A boundary layer is
formed, within which the shear stresses and velocity
gradients are large. At sufficient distance from the
surface, these same shear stresses and velocity gradients
become negligible."

"The problem, then, is this (simplistically): When
atoms/molecules strike the surface, they take on the
velocity of the surface (zero) and, to an extent, the
temperature of the surface. If these atoms/molecules
were to simply "get out of the way" to be replaced by
other (colder) atoms/molecules, then we could imagine
a great deal of heat being carried away."

"In addition to the velocity boundary layer, if there
is heat being carried away, then there must also be a
thermal boundary layer. Whereas the velocity boundary
layer was characterized by shear and velocity gradients,
the thermal boundary layer is characterized by temperature
gradients and heat transfer."

"Laminar, Transition and Turbulent
For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to
get the heat energy out into the flowing coolant.
Turbulence will do this for us."

"At low flow velocities, we can visualize 'streamlines'
along which the particles of the fluid actually move,
and transport is dominated by diffusion. However, as
the flow velocity becomes larger and larger, fluctuations
and irregularities will force the flow to become turbulent.
In between the extremes of laminar flow and turbulent flow,
we have a transition region where diffusion and turbulent
mixing are of about equal importance. Finally, in the
turbulent portion of the flow, transport is dominated by
turbulent mixing."


Need something more explicit? Try downloading this
..pdf document:
http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf

Here is a quote:

"In engineering applications, turbulence often displays apparent
differences from laminar flows. Comparatively speaking, turbulent
flows often lead to higher transport rate of momentum, energy and
mass than laminar flows. These features are widely made use of in
energy systems in industry. For example, turbulence enhancers such
as ribs are added to cooling systems of turbine blades and micro-
electronic devices to create more turbulent motions so that the
overall heat transfer efficiency can be improved."


There's a whole lot more, especially if you want to pay
for the information, but you get the idea -

Turbulent flow is better than laminar flow for cooling warm surfaces.

*TimDaniels*
 
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"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote in message
news:9LydnaPXg7OjilHd4p2dnA@comcast.com...
> Here are some interesting webpages that should convince
> you that turbulent flow is better for cooling than laminar flow:
snip

But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
only turbulant.
Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
heatsink will be turbulant.
b
 
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"Battleax" wrote:
>
> But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
> only turbulant.
> Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
> heatsink will be turbulant.


You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
have no intake fan.
Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
moving air.

*TimDaniels*
 
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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:58:37 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>Here are some interesting webpages that should convince
>you that turbulent flow is better for cooling than laminar flow:
>

LOL, it's a new trend in usenet...
"I will win my argument by posting the same topic over and over again".
 
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"kony" wrote:
> "Timothy Daniels"> wrote:
>
> >Here are some interesting webpages that should convince
> >you that turbulent flow is better for cooling than laminar flow:
> >
>
> LOL, it's a new trend in usenet...
> "I will win my argument by posting the same topic over and over again".


I won the argument where no one reads - at the bottom of a long thread.
This is for people who just read the top.

*TimDaniels*
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "Battleax" wrote:
>
>>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
>>only turbulant.
>>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
>>heatsink will be turbulant.
>
>
>
> You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
> at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
> have no intake fan.
> Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
> PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
> These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
> moving air.
>
> *TimDaniels*

http://www.equipmentprotectionmagazine.com/eprints/UAF.htm

Air-Moving /Air-Straightening

..
..
..
Many ventilation systems generate turbulent flow at the inlet when air
rapidly enters the enclosure while being sliced by fan blades, then is
forced to turn sharp corners. This turbulence creates noise, slows the
airflow before exiting, and reduces effective cooling. Air straightening
decreases the vortices and input power, increases downstream velocity, and
maintains velocity over greater distances. This prevents large vortices
from forming and distributes the pressure drop more uniformly across the
chassis. The air filter media itself plays a major role in keeping airflow
laminar.
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "Battleax" wrote:
>
>>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
>>only turbulant.
>>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
>>heatsink will be turbulant.
>
>
>
> You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
> at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
> have no intake fan.
> Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
> PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
> These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
> moving air.
>
> *TimDaniels*

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hJfM7Wv6A3cJ:www.nmbtc.com/pdf/forum/engineering_101.pdf+turbulence+laminar+flow+enclosure+cooling+electronics&hl=en

"Intake Or Exhaust?

Designers have the choice of mounting a fan to exhaust warm air from, or
blow cool air into, an enclosure. Theoretically, the same volume of air is
used to dissipate heat. However in real applications, each arrangement has
advantages and disadvantages. Air that is drawn into the fan flows
laminarly. Laminar flow allows for a uniformly distributed airflow velocity
in the enclosure. This is important in eliminating stagnant air and hot
spots. Air exhausted from the fan is turbulent. Heat dissipation in a
turbulent airflow can be up to double that of a laminar flow with the same
volumetric flow rate. But, the turbulent airflow region near a fan exhaust
is limited. Developing a well defined air flow path through the whole
enclosure is essential. Vents should be at least 50 percent larger in area
than the fan opening. Care must be taken to eliminate air recirculation in
a fan. Ninety percent, or more, of the airflow can be lost because of
recirculation problems. Baffles may be used to eliminate recirculation of
the same air. The airflow path will always take the path of least resistance."

---------------------------------
Note that since the downstream turbulent region created by an active fan
beating the hell out of the air is considered "limited" it's down right
minuscule for a passive vent hole.
 
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"David Maynard" wrote:
> Timothy Daniels wrote:
>
> > "Battleax" wrote:
> >
> >>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
> >>only turbulant.
> >>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
> >>heatsink will be turbulant.
> >
> >
> >
> > You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
> > at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
> > have no intake fan.
> > Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
> > PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
> > These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
> > moving air.
> >
> > *TimDaniels*
>
> http://www.equipmentprotectionmagazine.com/eprints/UAF.htm
>
> Air-Moving /Air-Straightening
>
> Many ventilation systems generate turbulent flow at the inlet when air
> rapidly enters the enclosure while being sliced by fan blades, then is
> forced to turn sharp corners. This turbulence creates noise, slows the
> airflow before exiting, and reduces effective cooling. Air straightening
> decreases the vortices and input power, increases downstream velocity, and
> maintains velocity over greater distances. This prevents large vortices
> from forming and distributes the pressure drop more uniformly across the
> chassis. The air filter media itself plays a major role in keeping airflow
> laminar.


That's definitely an argument for not using a fan to blow into the case
after the air that has already gone through a grating, isn't it?

*TimDaniels*
 
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"David Maynard" wrote:
> Timothy Daniels wrote:
>
> > "Battleax" wrote:
> >
> >>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
> >>only turbulant.
> >>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
> >>heatsink will be turbulant.
> >
> >
> >
> > You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
> > at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
> > have no intake fan.
> > Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
> > PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
> > These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
> > moving air.
> >
> > *TimDaniels*
>
>
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hJfM7Wv6A3cJ:www.nmbtc.com/pdf/forum/engineering_101.pdf+turbulence+laminar+flow+enclosure+cooling+electronics&hl=en
>
> "Intake Or Exhaust?
>
> Designers have the choice of mounting a fan to exhaust warm air from, or
> blow cool air into, an enclosure. Theoretically, the same volume of air is
> used to dissipate heat. However in real applications, each arrangement has
> advantages and disadvantages. Air that is drawn into the fan flows
> laminarly. Laminar flow allows for a uniformly distributed airflow velocity
> in the enclosure. This is important in eliminating stagnant air and hot
> spots. Air exhausted from the fan is turbulent. Heat dissipation in a
> turbulent airflow can be up to double that of a laminar flow with the same
> volumetric flow rate. But, the turbulent airflow region near a fan exhaust
> is limited. Developing a well defined air flow path through the whole
> enclosure is essential. Vents should be at least 50 percent larger in area
> than the fan opening. Care must be taken to eliminate air recirculation in
> a fan. Ninety percent, or more, of the airflow can be lost because of
> recirculation problems. Baffles may be used to eliminate recirculation of
> the same air. The airflow path will always take the path of least resistance."
>
> ---------------------------------
> Note that since the downstream turbulent region created by an active fan
> beating the hell out of the air is considered "limited" it's down right
> minuscule for a passive vent hole.


Air that has reached the exhaust fan will always be turbulent for many
reasons, not the least of which are the CPU fan, the GPU fan, and the
obstacle laden paths through the case. What must also be provided
with turbulent air flow are the components near the intake - the hard
drive(s) and upstream PCI cards. You can blow into the intake with
a fan (the noisy and costly way), or you can provide multiple holes
punched in the case (the quiet and cheap way).

*TimDaniels*
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "David Maynard" wrote:
>
>>Timothy Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Battleax" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
>>>>only turbulant.
>>>>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
>>>>heatsink will be turbulant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
>>> at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
>>> have no intake fan.
>>> Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
>>> PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
>>> These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
>>> moving air.
>>>
>>>*TimDaniels*
>>
>>http://www.equipmentprotectionmagazine.com/eprints/UAF.htm
>>
>>Air-Moving /Air-Straightening
>>
>>Many ventilation systems generate turbulent flow at the inlet when air
>>rapidly enters the enclosure while being sliced by fan blades, then is
>>forced to turn sharp corners. This turbulence creates noise, slows the
>>airflow before exiting, and reduces effective cooling. Air straightening
>>decreases the vortices and input power, increases downstream velocity, and
>>maintains velocity over greater distances. This prevents large vortices
>>from forming and distributes the pressure drop more uniformly across the
>>chassis. The air filter media itself plays a major role in keeping airflow
>>laminar.
>
>
>
> That's definitely an argument for not using a fan to blow into the case
> after the air that has already gone through a grating, isn't it?

The point is that inlet 'turbulence' is not helpful, regardless of what
creates it.

Or, put in the inverse negative, as you seem to prefer, if one were trying
to induce inlet turbulence then a fan, especially eschewing those laminar
airflow filters they're trying to sell, would be a hell of a lot more
effective than any 'theory' regarding vent hole turbulence.




> *TimDaniels*
 
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"David Maynard" wrote:
> The point is that inlet 'turbulence' is not helpful, regardless of what
> creates it.
>
> Or, put in the inverse negative, as you seem to prefer, if one were trying
> to induce inlet turbulence then a fan, especially eschewing those laminar
> airflow filters they're trying to sell, would be a hell of a lot more
> effective than any 'theory' regarding vent hole turbulence.


Tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc. I'm sure they'd
welcome your secrets about inexpensive cooling methods.

*TimDaniels*
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "David Maynard" wrote:
>
>>Timothy Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Battleax" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
>>>>only turbulant.
>>>>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
>>>>heatsink will be turbulant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
>>> at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
>>> have no intake fan.
>>> Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
>>> PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
>>> These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
>>> moving air.
>>>
>>>*TimDaniels*
>>
>>
> http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hJfM7Wv6A3cJ:www.nmbtc.com/pdf/forum/engineering_101.pdf+turbulence+laminar+flow+enclosure+cooling+electronics&hl=en
>
>>"Intake Or Exhaust?
>>
>>Designers have the choice of mounting a fan to exhaust warm air from, or
>>blow cool air into, an enclosure. Theoretically, the same volume of air is
>>used to dissipate heat. However in real applications, each arrangement has
>>advantages and disadvantages. Air that is drawn into the fan flows
>>laminarly. Laminar flow allows for a uniformly distributed airflow velocity
>>in the enclosure. This is important in eliminating stagnant air and hot
>>spots. Air exhausted from the fan is turbulent. Heat dissipation in a
>>turbulent airflow can be up to double that of a laminar flow with the same
>>volumetric flow rate. But, the turbulent airflow region near a fan exhaust
>>is limited. Developing a well defined air flow path through the whole
>>enclosure is essential. Vents should be at least 50 percent larger in area
>>than the fan opening. Care must be taken to eliminate air recirculation in
>>a fan. Ninety percent, or more, of the airflow can be lost because of
>>recirculation problems. Baffles may be used to eliminate recirculation of
>>the same air. The airflow path will always take the path of least resistance."
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Note that since the downstream turbulent region created by an active fan
>>beating the hell out of the air is considered "limited" it's down right
>>minuscule for a passive vent hole.
>
>
>
> Air that has reached the exhaust fan will always be turbulent for many
> reasons, not the least of which are the CPU fan, the GPU fan, and the
> obstacle laden paths through the case. What must also be provided
> with turbulent air flow are the components near the intake - the hard
> drive(s) and upstream PCI cards. You can blow into the intake with
> a fan (the noisy and costly way), or you can provide multiple holes
> punched in the case (the quiet and cheap way).

The whole POINT is that inlet 'turbulence' is USELESS and only serves to
reduce the airflow.


>
> *TimDaniels*
>
 
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"David Maynard" wrote:
> The whole POINT is that inlet 'turbulence' is USELESS
> and only serves to reduce the airflow.


OK, we'll have to start from the beginning, again.
Start with these:
http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/
http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html
http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html
http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf


The conclusions: Turbulence aids the transfer of heat between
a surface and the fluid flowing over it.

*TimDaniels*
 
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:35:24 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>"David Maynard" wrote:
>> Timothy Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > "Battleax" wrote:
>> >
>> >>But this is totally irrelevant. There is no laminar airflow in a computer,
>> >>only turbulant.
>> >>Any air that gets moved by a fan will be turbulant, any air flowing over a
>> >>heatsink will be turbulant.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > You are thinking of a computer that has a fan blowing INTO it
>> > at the front. Most PCs move air by an EXHAUST fan, and they
>> > have no intake fan.
>> > Most warm components have no dedicated fan, e.g. hard drive,
>> > PCI boards, all non-CPU/GPU chips, resistors, diodes, etc.
>> > These all need cooling, and turbulence improves the effect of
>> > moving air.
>> >
>> > *TimDaniels*
>>
>> http://www.equipmentprotectionmagazine.com/eprints/UAF.htm
>>
>> Air-Moving /Air-Straightening
>>
>> Many ventilation systems generate turbulent flow at the inlet when air
>> rapidly enters the enclosure while being sliced by fan blades, then is
>> forced to turn sharp corners. This turbulence creates noise, slows the
>> airflow before exiting, and reduces effective cooling. Air straightening
>> decreases the vortices and input power, increases downstream velocity, and
>> maintains velocity over greater distances. This prevents large vortices
>> from forming and distributes the pressure drop more uniformly across the
>> chassis. The air filter media itself plays a major role in keeping airflow
>> laminar.
>
>
> That's definitely an argument for not using a fan to blow into the case
> after the air that has already gone through a grating, isn't it?
>
>*TimDaniels*

LOL, no, it's an argument that if there wasn't a fan then the ventilation
system wouldn't move the air at all, and that the goal is maintaining
needed flow rate with minimal noise ratio. In other words, minimize the
impedance to flow, not be elimination of the fan but of passive obstacles.
The filter is an exception, since it keeps system clean and enviroment
hospitable.
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "David Maynard" wrote:
>
>>The point is that inlet 'turbulence' is not helpful, regardless of what
>>creates it.
>>
>>Or, put in the inverse negative, as you seem to prefer, if one were trying
>>to induce inlet turbulence then a fan, especially eschewing those laminar
>>airflow filters they're trying to sell, would be a hell of a lot more
>>effective than any 'theory' regarding vent hole turbulence.
>
>
>
> Tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc. I'm sure they'd
> welcome your secrets about inexpensive cooling methods.

No one needs to "tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc." because
they already know how to design proper airflow, and your 'vent hole
turbulence' theory ain't a part of it.

All you're doing by ignoring the literature is proving my analogy about how
you'd be still claiming the Pacific Ocean is a sand desert even after
having your head shoved into it.
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "David Maynard" wrote:
>
>>The whole POINT is that inlet 'turbulence' is USELESS
>>and only serves to reduce the airflow.
>
>
>
> OK, we'll have to start from the beginning, again.
> Start with these:
> http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/
> http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html
> http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html
> http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf
>
>
> The conclusions: Turbulence aids the transfer of heat between
> a surface and the fluid flowing over it.
>
> *TimDaniels*
>

Get this through your thick head: The turbulence created by 'vent holes'
doesn't extend into the case far enough to cool a damn thing other than the
stupid vent holes, and none of your articles say otherwise. So if you're
all fired worried about 'hot' vent holes then, by all means, drill a ton of
them.

If, however, you're concerned with cooling other things, like the CPU,
motherboard components, and hard drives then you're going to have to find
some other means for creating the desired turbulence THERE, where the heat is.

Of course, you first have to get air TO them, before you can expect
turbulence THERE, and the stupid vent holes are a flow restriction but,
unfortunately, they're the cheapest EMI shielding solution.
 
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"David Maynard" wrote:
> No one needs to "tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc."
> because they already know how to design proper airflow, and
> your 'vent hole turbulence' theory ain't a part of it.


Then why do they use multiple holes instead of a wire grill
at their air intakes? One big hole with a wire grill would flow
more air and block EMI, but would produce less turbulence
than the holes. But yet they use the multiple holes of various
sizes and a plastic fascia to cover them - which requires
the incoming air to make right angle turn - just the thing to
cause turbulence. Educated engineers designed this. I
wonder why?


> All you're doing by ignoring the literature....


What literature?

*TimDaniels*
 
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"David Maynard" goes 'round the bend:
> Get this through your thick head: The turbulence created by 'vent holes'
> doesn't extend into the case far enough to cool a damn thing other than the
> stupid vent holes, and none of your articles say otherwise. So if you're
> all fired worried about 'hot' vent holes then, by all means, drill a ton of
> them.


Why a ton? A dozen should suffice.


> If, however, you're concerned with cooling other things, like the CPU,
> motherboard components, and hard drives then you're going to have to find
> some other means for creating the desired turbulence THERE, where the heat is.


And why ignore the hard drive(s)? Are they unimportant? How about
the PCI cards? Don't they have chips that need cooling, too? And
unless you have a motherboard that has a dedicated shrouded fan,
it needs turbulence as well to scrub down among the surface-mounted
components. For some reason, you think that turbulence generated
at the intake somehow dissipates in the one or two seconds that it
takes to get to the motherboard, and that only laminar flow exists
at that point. Like I said in another thread, that's the molasses theory
of air flow - i.e. the belief that air has the same degree of viscosity
as that of molasses. But air is *not* as viscous as molasses, and
turbulence *does* last - certainly longer than the time that it takes
to transit the interior of a PC case. But... it's not as easy to measure
or discern as turbulence, and one who has built up a belief in the
insignificance of turbulence would certainly dismiss it.


> Of course, you first have to get air TO them, before you can expect
> turbulence THERE, and the stupid vent holes are a flow restriction but,
> unfortunately, they're the cheapest EMI shielding solution.


Cheaper would be one big hole with a wire grill instead of multiple
punched holes and a complex plastic fascia. Yet the big manufacturers
who can afford to do cut-'n-try design work and who can afford to
hire real college-educated engineers go with multiple holes and the
complex fascia. Hmmm... maybe they know something the homebrew
crowd doesn't know...

*TimDaniels*
 
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:34:28 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>"David Maynard" wrote:
>> The point is that inlet 'turbulence' is not helpful, regardless of what
>> creates it.
>>
>> Or, put in the inverse negative, as you seem to prefer, if one were trying
>> to induce inlet turbulence then a fan, especially eschewing those laminar
>> airflow filters they're trying to sell, would be a hell of a lot more
>> effective than any 'theory' regarding vent hole turbulence.
>
>
> Tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc. I'm sure they'd
> welcome your secrets about inexpensive cooling methods.
>
>*TimDaniels*

"Inexpensive" being the key word here... it's not that it's better, just
simplier and cheaper. They do not increase the complexity or cost when it
isn't necessary to keep the system operational as-shipped.
 
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"kony"
> > Tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc. I'm sure
> > they'd welcome your secrets about inexpensive cooling
> > methods.
> >
> >*TimDaniels*
>
> "Inexpensive" being the key word here... it's not that it's better,
> just simplier and cheaper. They do not increase the complexity
> or cost when it isn't necessary to keep the system operational
> as-shipped.


And why do they go to the trouble of making holes big enough
to stick a finger or pen into and then add a plastic fascia to keep
those fingers and pens out? Why don't they put a wire grill over
one big hole? Maybe because the holes and the fascia make
for real nice intake turbulence?

*TimDaniels*
 
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"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote in message
news:rf-dneVZS49poFLdRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>
> Then why do they use multiple holes instead of a wire grill
> at their air intakes? One big hole with a wire grill would flow
> more air and block EMI, but would produce less turbulence
> than the holes. But yet they use the multiple holes of various
> sizes and a plastic fascia to cover them - which requires
> the incoming air to make right angle turn - just the thing to
> cause turbulence. Educated engineers designed this. I
> wonder why?

Because it's a lot cheaper to punch holes than to make a seprate screen and
attach it.
 
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"Battleax" offered:
> Because it's a lot cheaper to punch holes than to make
> a seprate screen and attach it.


And the fancy 3-dimensional molded fascia? Is
that cheap to make and attach, too? It wouldn't be
needed with a wire grill over just one big hole...

*TimDaniels*
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:

> "David Maynard" wrote:
>
>>No one needs to "tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc."
>>because they already know how to design proper airflow, and
>>your 'vent hole turbulence' theory ain't a part of it.
>
>
>
> Then why do they use multiple holes instead of a wire grill
> at their air intakes?

I already told you why, and posted the EMI specs to prove it.

> One big hole with a wire grill would flow
> more air and block EMI,

It costs more.

> but would produce less turbulence
> than the holes. But yet they use the multiple holes of various
> sizes and a plastic fascia to cover them - which requires
> the incoming air to make right angle turn - just the thing to
> cause turbulence. Educated engineers designed this. I
> wonder why?

Because it's the least costly solution that's sufficient to the task.


>>All you're doing by ignoring the literature....
>
>
>
> What literature?

The literature I've posted, that you keep snipping out, because it
contradicts your 'religion' of 'vent hole turbulence'.

>
> *TimDaniels*
 
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:26:49 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>"kony"
>> > Tell it to Dell, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, etc. I'm sure
>> > they'd welcome your secrets about inexpensive cooling
>> > methods.
>> >
>> >*TimDaniels*
>>
>> "Inexpensive" being the key word here... it's not that it's better,
>> just simplier and cheaper. They do not increase the complexity
>> or cost when it isn't necessary to keep the system operational
>> as-shipped.
>
>
> And why do they go to the trouble of making holes big enough
> to stick a finger or pen into and then add a plastic fascia to keep
> those fingers and pens out?

That's just it, they don't "go to the trouble of...".
They just use same simple, time-proven design and minimal parts as always,
and follow Intel & AMD guidelines. Those guidelines include power supply,
rear case fan, but not vent hole turbulence.

Additionally, if that "holes big enough to stick a finger or pen into" was
their idea of good turbulence, they why don't they make all of their cases
with similar hole size? Many OEM cases do not have holes large enough to
put a finger or pen in, but some do... There is no optimization towards
hole turbulence. In fact, many OEM cases were simply selected from
designs of case manufacturers with custom faceplates, a duct on power
supply or rear fan, etc... no frame changes, just "snap on" parts added.

> Why don't they put a wire grill over
> one big hole? Maybe because the holes and the fascia make
> for real nice intake turbulence?

Why don't they put a NiMH battery changer on the front of every case or a
neon dancing turtle on top?
Because there isn't enough demand for that either.

Even intel, in their revised BTX design guide, has specifically mentioned
moving away from the age-old passive-hole design.

"the air channel and chassis vent should be designed so that there is
minimal impedance to airflow from outside the chassis to the defined
interface." (Section 3.3.3).

They spent a fair amount of time testing that, are they completely wrong
too?

If you want to believe your hole theory, so be it. I'm perfectly happy
letting you believe you have optimal cooling... if you do end up having
problems you might want to rethink your theory. That's all the time I
care to spend on case holes, no need for another long thread like the last
one.
 
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"kony" wrote:
> "Timothy Daniels" wrote:
> > And why do they go to the trouble of making holes
> > big enough to stick a finger or pen into and then
> > add a plastic fascia to keep those fingers and pens out?
>
> That's just it, they don't "go to the trouble of...".
> They just use same simple, time-proven design and minimal
> parts as always, and follow Intel & AMD guidelines.


The complex and distinctive fascias on the various name
brand PCs are "simple", "time-proven" and "minimal"?
Does Intel and AMD really design these in secret and
sell them to Dell, HP, Gateway and the rest? Of course
not! They are products of engineering experimentation
and design, and not just to keep fingers out.


> Those guidelines include power supply,
> rear case fan, but not vent hole turbulence.


So? Do you think for a moment that Dell, HP, Gateway,
et. al. depend on Intel and AMD to tell them how to
design their cases so that Intel's and AMD's components
get adequately cooled? Intel's and AMD's "guidelines"
are for homebuilders who don't have the facilities to
experiment with turbulence generating structures. It's
quite probably the case that Dell, HP, Gateway, et. al.
know *more* about providing adequate cooling at low
cost than does Intel and AMD because that is what
Dell, HP, Gateway, et. al. *do* for a living, while Intel and
AMD make *their* living by designing and manufacturing chips.



> Additionally, if that "holes big enough to stick a finger
> or pen into" was their idea of good turbulence, they why
> don't they make all of their cases with similar hole size?


That's because different size holes produce different size
vortices and air flow. Remember "cut-'n-try"? Each
PC model's interior is different from that of other models,
and thus their air flow and turbulence needs are different.


> Even intel, in their revised BTX design guide, has specifically
> mentioned moving away from the age-old passive-hole design.


Great. They get their turbulence from intake fans. It's costlier,
but it increases air flow by putting fans in series and the smaller
form factor demands a smaller fan than can be put on the back
of a BTX case. For BTX, it makes sense.


> "the air channel and chassis vent should be designed so that there is
> minimal impedance to airflow from outside the chassis to the defined
> interface." (Section 3.3.3).


Since there is no a priori way to specify a degree of turbulence,
especially to a homebuilder, they deal only with air flow rate.
What alternative do they have? Would you appreciate advice
to set up a cooling lab to experiment with size and number and
placement of intake holes? Unless you have the budget of Dell,
HP, Gateway, et. al., all you can deal with is how big a fan
you might need.


> They spent a fair amount of time testing that, are they completely
> wrong too?


How could the writer(s) of such a guideline specify how to
generate the optimal degree of turbulence? The most that
they could specify in a set of "guidelines" is to "flow as much
air as you can, dude". And so simple bulk air flow is thrown
at the problem like a blunt object. Great. It gets the job done -
but at the expense of a bigger fan, a faster fan, or even *more*
fans, and with the expense of greater noise.

*TimDaniels*