Wooden case for PC. Should I?

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
5.25 bays.

So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
mentioned?

-Jer
94 answers Last reply
More about wooden case
  1. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    I realize there may be some compromises (particularly the power
    supply), though now that I'm getting this feedback I didn't realize
    about the other hazards.

    The power supply is a problem, but the drives, motherboard, risers(for
    additional cards and low profile), and others can be doeable. Besides
    a power supply...a hard drive is about an inch high. So I'd say 2
    inches high would be generous for air to get in and out. But may I
    remind everyone that I'm not looking at creating a fancy wooden box or
    gaming computer. Its just a simply little computer for browsing the net
    and running average applications.

    But the more I think about this the more I'm thinking of looking some
    more to find a manufactured case instead. If I can find that h340g
    case, but could accept a regular ATX motherboard. I guess I can live
    with that.

    -jer
  2. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    The FCC may have something to say about your wooden case. Computers tend to
    generate RF signals that they would broadcast if it were not for the
    shielding provided by their metal cases. You may interfere with your
    neighbors' cordless phones, etc.


    DaveW


    <rjerry@myway.com> wrote in message
    news:1125004157.756714.135050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    > wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    > examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    > natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    > metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
    >
    > Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    > aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
    > these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    > dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    > motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    > obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    > 5.25 bays.
    >
    > So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    > mentioned?
    >
    > -Jer
    >
  3. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    rjerry@myway.com wrote:

    > I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    > wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    > examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    > natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    > metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

    A fire isn't likely but it wouldn't meet U.L. safety.

    Also, wood is not an EMI shield.

    >
    > Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    > aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case.

    Good luck on making wood walls and braces thinner than stamped metal.

    > I can't stand
    > these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    > dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    > motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    > obsolete(low demand I guess).

    A homebuilt case will be just as 'obsolete' as any other.

    > I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    > 5.25 bays.

    You need to try making a layout of the things you want to put in it and see
    just how hard it is to cram that many devices in a 'slim' case.

    >
    > So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    > mentioned?
    >
    > -Jer
    >
  4. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    <sigh>

    there's always something, now the FCC is pouting. After they built the
    typewriter....it should've stopped there. damn those Eniac engineers!!
  5. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    rjerry@myway.com wrote:
    > I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    > wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    > examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    > natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    > metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
    >
    > Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    > aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
    > these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    > dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    > motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    > obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    > 5.25 bays.
    >
    > So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    > mentioned?
    >
    > -Jer
    >
    I've seen it done a few times in different styles although trying for
    that low a profile is going to force you into some design compromises.
    If I were doing it I'd take the time to adhere some thick metal foil
    (probably copper) to the inside of the wood for RF shielding and a bit
    of heat protection. If you really want to get serious about downsizing
    without compromising too much and you have the technical chops you might
    like Commell's new board which is fast and super-compact.

    http://www.commell.com.tw/News/News/News_20050422_LV-673.htm

    This board has IDE support for 2 optical drives, SATA for your hard
    drives, dual gigabit lan, USB 2, video and audio with relatively high
    performance, and the list goes on and on. It supports 16x PCIe if you
    want a high-performance video gaming card too. All that in a MB that
    measures 170mm X 170mm (6.7" square)
    --
    John McGaw
    [Knoxville, TN, USA]
    http://johnmcgaw.com
  6. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On 25 Aug 2005 14:09:17 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

    >I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    >wooden computer case is a good idea

    No, it's not good because it costs more and takes a long
    time. But, if you want one anyway and like the result then
    THAT is good.

    > or a fire hazard

    Computers don't generally catch on fire, but if it did, yes
    that's a fire hazzard... it's your call.

    >I've seen some
    >examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    >natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    >metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

    Maybe just putting some veneer on a metal case?

    >
    >Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    >aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
    >these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    >dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    >motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    >obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    >5.25 bays.
    >
    >So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    >mentioned?


    How did you plan on cooling it? You can't make a case no
    larger, with significantly thicker panels, then stuff yet
    another drive into it. IMO, it's highly advisable to make
    it at least thick enough to allow an 80mm diameter fan(s),
    as it creates a _LOT_ of noise trying to cool modern parts
    with sub-80mm fans.

    You'd also be doing a lot of work towards a case with very
    little potential unless you're looking at using a custom
    power supply, as even a mATX supply itself is about 2.5"
    thick, ignoring that it then has to rely on a tiny pusher
    fan on the rear and that it'd leave you 0" thick panels
    above or below the PSU.

    H340G is about 3 3/4" tall and you've already noted only one
    drive bay, BUT if you did without the floppy drive and
    modified that rack a little to improve airflow through the
    area you might be able to fit a 2nd drive in it, though for
    optimal results you'd probably ned to increase the air
    intake on the front bezel some too... that case was
    engineered back when systems (including HDDs) didn't produce
    as much heat as today.

    You could of course put veneer on it, but I suspect that
    when all is said and done, you'd have spent a lot of time on
    a system that is too limiting because it requires use of
    relatively low heat parts. IMO, you should consider making
    it bigger... make a nice endtable or filecabinet with the
    system built into the base of it.
  7. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On 25 Aug 2005 14:09:17 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

    >I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    >wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    >examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    >natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    >metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
    >
    >Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    >aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
    >these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    >dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    >motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    >obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    >5.25 bays.
    >
    >So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    >mentioned?
    >
    >-Jer

    http://forum.ozcasemodz.com/viewtopic.php?t=310

    Some zany modder and pix of his wooden homemade case

    -T-
  8. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On 25 Aug 2005 14:09:17 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

    >I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    >wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    >examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    >natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    >metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
    >
    >Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    >aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
    >these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    >dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    >motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    >obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    >5.25 bays.
    >
    >So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    >mentioned?
    >
    I built one years ago round an old 486.
    By far the simplest method is to use an existing case and simply strip
    the outer panels off. These are then replaced with wood.
    In my case ( 'scuse pun ) I used varnished ply - and each wooden panel
    was lined with a sheet of copper foil.

    I can't see how you're going to meet your 'slim' criteria though,
    wood's just plain too bulky a material.

    I would say that the only advantage in using wood is the aesthetic one
    - and in order to meet that ( and not have the machine end up looking
    like a plumber's toolbox ) you have to spend a great deal of time on
    the finish.

    Another factor to bear in mind is the heat. There's a minimal fire
    risk ( I've had valve amps built with wooden cases..and none of them
    ever erupted into flames..and they got significantly hotter than a
    computer ), but the big problem is warpage. This effectively limits
    you to using good quality ply for the case, which will withstand the
    thermal variances better than solid wood.

    All in all I'd say that wooden computer cases are perhaps best suited
    to those situations where looks are more important than size or
    functionality - and even then you might be better off just buying a
    decent cabinet to stash your machine in.

    Regards,


    --
    Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
    www.shwoodwind.co.uk
    Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
  9. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On 25 Aug 2005 15:09:09 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

    >I realize there may be some compromises (particularly the power
    >supply), though now that I'm getting this feedback I didn't realize
    >about the other hazards.
    >
    >The power supply is a problem,

    Then focus on it first, there is no point in getting rest
    spec'd one way then finding you had to redesign it all.


    >but the drives, motherboard, risers(for
    >additional cards and low profile), and others can be doeable. Besides
    >a power supply...a hard drive is about an inch high. So I'd say 2
    >inches high would be generous for air to get in and out.

    2" high internal cavity would work (or should that be
    "woodwork"), providing you don't stack the drives, leaving
    1/2" unobstructed area above and below. With two drives,
    there is no way to make that work AND have the 15 x 10"
    dimensions you wanted.

    Pick the system components you want to use, acquire them,
    then lay them out. You can then find the minimal internal
    dimensions possible for this case.


    >But may I
    >remind everyone that I'm not looking at creating a fancy wooden box or
    >gaming computer. Its just a simply little computer for browsing the net
    >and running average applications.
    >
    >But the more I think about this the more I'm thinking of looking some
    >more to find a manufactured case instead. If I can find that h340g
    >case, but could accept a regular ATX motherboard. I guess I can live
    >with that.


    Why regular ATX? There is no reason to believe mATX is
    going away sooner than full ATX.. in fact mATX is very very
    common right now, as most of the lower-cost OEM boxes are
    using them.
  10. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <1125004157.756714.135050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
    says...
    > I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    > wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    > examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    > natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    > metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
    >
    > Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
    > aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
    > these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
    > dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
    > motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
    > obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
    > 5.25 bays.
    >
    > So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
    > mentioned?
    >
    THere's a company making alot of money selling wooden cases, mice and
    keyboards.

    Do it.


    --
    Conor

    The child is grown, the dream is gone.
    I have become comfortably numb. - Pink Floyd
  11. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On 2005-08-25, rjerry@myway.com <rjerry@myway.com> wrote:
    > I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    > wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    > examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    > natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    > metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

    I have one at home I built about 6 months ago. It is constructed out of
    half inch mahagony - if that catches fire something was seriously wrong
    in the first place. It is also about 7 inches high - I wanted something
    that looked like a 1940's wireless set. Works fine but for a 2 1/2 inch
    enclosure wood wouldn't be the first material of choice. As others have
    indicated, maybe veneer is a better bet. I remember a product called
    'microwood' from a few years ago that was almost paper-thin wood veneer
    with a self stick backing. That would probably be your best bet for
    this.


    --
    Andrew Smallshaw
    andrews@sdf.lonestar.org
  12. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Andrew Smallshaw wrote:

    > On 2005-08-25, rjerry@myway.com <rjerry@myway.com> wrote:
    >
    >>I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
    >>wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
    >>examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
    >>natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
    >>metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
    >
    >
    > I have one at home I built about 6 months ago. It is constructed out of
    > half inch mahagony - if that catches fire something was seriously wrong
    > in the first place.

    Of course. But the point to safety standards is to prevent something
    'seriously wrong' from turning into a serious disaster. I.e. A burnt
    computer is one level of 'serious' but a burnt house is quite another.

    Having said that, the odds of (thick solid) wood catching fire from a
    computer failure is pretty low because the high power components are
    supposed to be current limited.

    > It is also about 7 inches high - I wanted something
    > that looked like a 1940's wireless set. Works fine but for a 2 1/2 inch
    > enclosure wood wouldn't be the first material of choice. As others have
    > indicated, maybe veneer is a better bet. I remember a product called
    > 'microwood' from a few years ago that was almost paper-thin wood veneer
    > with a self stick backing. That would probably be your best bet for
    > this.
    >
    >
  13. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    DaveW writes:

    > The FCC may have something to say about your wooden case. Computers tend to
    > generate RF signals that they would broadcast if it were not for the
    > shielding provided by their metal cases.

    I haven't noticed any interference from modern PCs, even with the case
    open, and even with other devices held right next to the case.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  14. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    David Maynard writes:

    > Of course. But the point to safety standards is to prevent something
    > 'seriously wrong' from turning into a serious disaster. I.e. A burnt
    > computer is one level of 'serious' but a burnt house is quite another.

    Just treat the wood to make it fire-resistant. And use an Intel
    processor so that it doesn't melt if the fan fails.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Mxsmanic wrote:

    > DaveW writes:
    >
    >
    >>The FCC may have something to say about your wooden case. Computers tend to
    >>generate RF signals that they would broadcast if it were not for the
    >>shielding provided by their metal cases.
    >
    >
    > I haven't noticed any interference from modern PCs, even with the case
    > open, and even with other devices held right next to the case.

    You may not but it can and does happen, although I'd be suspicious about
    claims it affected the neighbors.

    >
    > --
    > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  16. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Mxsmanic wrote:

    > David Maynard writes:
    >
    >
    >>Of course. But the point to safety standards is to prevent something
    >>'seriously wrong' from turning into a serious disaster. I.e. A burnt
    >>computer is one level of 'serious' but a burnt house is quite another.
    >
    >
    > Just treat the wood to make it fire-resistant.

    That would help but it would probably be easier to use a metal liner and
    that solves the EMI situation as well.

    > And use an Intel
    > processor so that it doesn't melt if the fan fails.

    What about a molten northbridge, or any of the other myriad components?

    >
    > --
    > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  17. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    ok. I've thought about it some more and this is my current design.

    I will use wood only as asthetics, but the main material of the
    computer will be out of aluminum sheets(not sure how thick). That is
    what a computer case is typically made out of, correct? The wood, if
    desired, will be added on top of the aluminum material. My only problem
    is that "I've never done this before", well...with aluminum that is.
    Great learning experience, but *could* be a b--- to pull off. But
    simplicity is the key here. My main question is:

    1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
    torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
    auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
    mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
    compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
    twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
    TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
    metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
    casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
    better?
    And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
    of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!

    2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
    Some of the risers are pretty pricey!

    3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
    hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
    pressure from the monitor?

    I hope these are the only issues that I need to alert myself to. I want
    this project to be very simple. I've been taking my pretty time here
    about how I want to build this computer and what I want for a computer.
    And now I have the image of the custom case, in my head, and I've made
    the design so utterly simple. But now I need to know about the 3
    concerns that mentioned above. comments?

    you guys have been very helpful with all your posts. I didn't think I
    would get this much feedback. thanks a bunch.

    -jer
  18. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    ok. I've thought about it some more and this is my current design.

    I will use wood only as asthetics, but the main material of the
    computer will be out of aluminum sheets(not sure how thick). That is
    what a computer case is typically made out of, correct? The wood, if
    desired, will be added on top of the aluminum material. My only problem
    is that "I've never done this before", well...with aluminum that is.
    Great learning experience, but *could* be a b--- to pull off. But
    simplicity is the key here. My main question is:

    1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
    torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
    auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
    mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
    compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
    twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
    TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
    metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
    casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
    better?
    And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
    of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!

    2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
    Some of the risers are pretty pricey!

    3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
    hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
    pressure from the monitor?

    I hope these are the only issues that I need to alert myself to. I want
    this project to be very simple. I've been taking my pretty time here
    about how I want to build this computer and what I want for a computer.
    And now I have the image of the custom case, in my head, and I've made
    the design so utterly simple. But now I need to know about the 3
    concerns that mentioned above. comments?

    you guys have been very helpful with all your posts. I didn't think I
    would get this much feedback. thanks a bunch.

    -jer
  19. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <1125206405.032575.322910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
    says...

    > 1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
    > torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
    > auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
    > mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
    > compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
    > twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
    > TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
    > metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
    > casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
    > better?
    > And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
    > of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!
    >
    > 2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
    > Some of the risers are pretty pricey!
    >
    > 3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
    > hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
    > pressure from the monitor?

    1) Buy a cheap ass case instead of using ally. Drill out the rivets and
    keep the motherboard tray,the HDD/floppy drive cage and cut out the
    section that the expansion cards go into.

    2) Because you've cut out the expansion card section, this won't be an
    issue.

    3) Use beams. THey don't need to be very thick.


    --
    Conor

    The child is grown, the dream is gone.
    I have become comfortably numb. - Pink Floyd
  20. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    kony writes:

    > Perhaps, but did GPUs of that era do so?

    GPUs of that era didn't require fans, and so they would not overheat.

    I believe many current GPUs have thermal shutdown, especially those
    with fans.

    > I'm not trying to discount
    > the usefulness of a thermal shutdow, but rather putting it
    > in perspective that plenty of people do have systems of that
    > era or older that continue to run fine without a CPU thermal
    > shutdown feature.

    If the CPU doesn't require a fan, or if the system is mostly idle most
    of the time, they may get away with it indefinitely.

    > The AMD CPU died from failure of another subsystem. Would
    > any CPU survive from a signifant failure of the voltage
    > regulation subsystem? Usually yes because of the typical
    > nature of such failures, but still they have no protection
    > from it. The focus should always be on the failure point
    > before the CPU and you've made no mention at all of any fans
    > to avoid.

    The AMD CPU didn't come with a fan. The Intel processors do.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  21. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:07:54 +0200, Mxsmanic
    <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

    >kony writes:
    >
    >> Perhaps, but did GPUs of that era do so?
    >
    >GPUs of that era didn't require fans, and so they would not overheat.

    Yes, there were common video cards in the earlier Athlon era
    that used fans... not all, but not all now, either.


    >
    >I believe many current GPUs have thermal shutdown, especially those
    >with fans.
    >
    >> I'm not trying to discount
    >> the usefulness of a thermal shutdow, but rather putting it
    >> in perspective that plenty of people do have systems of that
    >> era or older that continue to run fine without a CPU thermal
    >> shutdown feature.
    >
    >If the CPU doesn't require a fan, or if the system is mostly idle most
    >of the time, they may get away with it indefinitely.
    >
    >> The AMD CPU died from failure of another subsystem. Would
    >> any CPU survive from a signifant failure of the voltage
    >> regulation subsystem? Usually yes because of the typical
    >> nature of such failures, but still they have no protection
    >> from it. The focus should always be on the failure point
    >> before the CPU and you've made no mention at all of any fans
    >> to avoid.
    >
    >The AMD CPU didn't come with a fan. The Intel processors do.

    ?

    Both manufacturers sold retail and oem (bare) product. Buy
    an OEM Intel CPU and you don't get a fan either- same diff.
  22. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <11h4gie7mnshca@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...

    > I'm not thinking of fan failure and other 'normal' failures as those are
    > catered for. It's the 'unexpected' kind that make for unforeseen problems.
    >
    In that case, all computers are in the same boat.


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  23. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <njt3h1hvg5q3mpbfeiq8n21c738fq0fhou@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    says...

    > I agree. But having some sort of protection in the CPU is an extra
    > layer of security. All fans fail eventually, and I assume the MTBF of
    > a CPU is greater than even that of the best fans (?).

    However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.

    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  24. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <8cr4h1le923bs5p8nuc7lgi66rqmac0kqj@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    says...

    > GPUs of that era didn't require fans, and so they would not overheat.
    >
    ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
    regularly overheated in arcade machines.

    >
    > The AMD CPU didn't come with a fan. The Intel processors do.
    >
    So do AMD Retail.


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  25. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On 27 Aug 2005 23:01:34 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

    >ok. I've thought about it some more and this is my current design.
    >
    >I will use wood only as asthetics, but the main material of the
    >computer will be out of aluminum sheets(not sure how thick). That is
    >what a computer case is typically made out of, correct? The wood, if
    >desired, will be added on top of the aluminum material. My only problem
    >is that "I've never done this before", well...with aluminum that is.
    >Great learning experience, but *could* be a b--- to pull off. But
    >simplicity is the key here. My main question is:
    >
    >1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
    >torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
    >auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
    >mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
    >compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
    >twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
    >TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
    >metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
    >casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
    >better?
    >And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
    >of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!

    I'd give up on the idea of welding ali...about the best you can do I
    soft-solder it using a specialised solder and a rather poisonous flux.
    It won't be a neat job either, or cheap.
    Using a resin compound isn't likely to work either, not without
    substantial bracing.
    Unless you have access to an accurate bending machine, I'd advise
    sticking to flat plates.

    >
    >2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
    >Some of the risers are pretty pricey!
    >
    >3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
    >hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
    >pressure from the monitor?

    At a rough guesstimate you'd need 5mm ali unsupported.
    Best bet would be to include cross beams ( you'll need beams anyway to
    form the inner matrix of the case.
    >
    >I hope these are the only issues that I need to alert myself to. I want
    >this project to be very simple. I've been taking my pretty time here
    >about how I want to build this computer and what I want for a computer.
    >And now I have the image of the custom case, in my head, and I've made
    >the design so utterly simple. But now I need to know about the 3
    >concerns that mentioned above. comments?

    You know what I'd be inclined to do?
    Adapt a case design for something else.
    I'm sitting here looking at an old Akai cassette deck - the case is in
    brushed ali, and all that would be needed to mod it would be to remove
    and replace the front and rear.
    The rear would be easy - just rip the back off an old desktop pc.
    The front could be cut from wood - and about the only other mod
    required would be a beam across the top to stiffen it.

    If you looked long enough you might even find one of those old 70's
    decks that were lined with solid mahogany ( Pioneer made a few of
    these ).
    They're not much smaller than a modern mini-tower though...

    Regards,


    --
    Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
    www.shwoodwind.co.uk
    Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
  26. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor wrote:

    > In article <11h4gie7mnshca@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    >
    >
    >>I'm not thinking of fan failure and other 'normal' failures as those are
    >>catered for. It's the 'unexpected' kind that make for unforeseen problems.
    >>
    >
    > In that case, all computers are in the same boat.

    In that something can go wrong with any of them, yes. Never said otherwise.
  27. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor wrote:

    > In article <njt3h1hvg5q3mpbfeiq8n21c738fq0fhou@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    > says...
    >
    >
    >>I agree. But having some sort of protection in the CPU is an extra
    >>layer of security. All fans fail eventually, and I assume the MTBF of
    >>a CPU is greater than even that of the best fans (?).
    >
    >
    > However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    > high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    > itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    >

    Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with. In which case 'crawling'
    is better than crashing.
  28. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    kony writes:

    > Both manufacturers sold retail and oem (bare) product. Buy
    > an OEM Intel CPU and you don't get a fan either- same diff.

    Well, the cheapo PCs I bought had an AMD processor, but the fan looked
    generic, and the heatsink might have been as well. The boxed Intel
    processors I bought to build replacements for the cheapos included
    fans.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  29. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor writes:

    > ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
    > regularly overheated in arcade machines.

    The arcade machines were poorly ventilated.

    > So do AMD Retail.

    I don't know what SonBook used to build their cheapo PC, but it had a
    very cheap generic sleeve-bearing fan that failed within a week or so
    (as did its replacement).

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  30. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor writes:

    > However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    > high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    > itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.

    Would you rather that it overheat and suffer permanent damage instead?

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  31. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...

    > > However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    > > high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    > > itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    > >
    >
    > Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.

    Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  32. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor wrote:
    > In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    >
    >
    >>>However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    >>>high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    >>>itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    >>>
    >>
    >>Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.
    >
    >
    > Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
    >
    >

    Actually, no. Unless you have inadequate cooling.
  33. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <tfg6h1ptnqbfn59598ii8r1ascnlapos95@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    says...
    > Conor writes:
    >
    > > ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
    > > regularly overheated in arcade machines.
    >
    > The arcade machines were poorly ventilated.
    >
    REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
    square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  34. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor wrote:

    > In article <tfg6h1ptnqbfn59598ii8r1ascnlapos95@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    > says...
    >
    >>Conor writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>>ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
    >>>regularly overheated in arcade machines.
    >>
    >>The arcade machines were poorly ventilated.
    >>
    >
    > REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
    > square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.
    >
    >

    If they overheated, then yes.
  35. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <7ig6h1pgv269udnbforou5l8ic1jovu8d7@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    says...
    > Conor writes:
    >
    > > However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    > > high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    > > itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    >
    > Would you rather that it overheat and suffer permanent damage instead?
    >
    Athlon64 runs alot cooler than a P4.

    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  36. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:14:01 +0200, Mxsmanic
    <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Conor writes:
    >
    >> However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    >> high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    >> itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    >
    >Would you rather that it overheat and suffer permanent damage instead?


    The underlying theme here should be that not *everyone*
    should be designing systems... and no, I'm not pointing
    fingers at any particular newsgroup participants, rather a
    sweeping declaration that any *desktop* system with a P4
    that ends up throttling needs rethought, sound not be left
    running beyond the first moment the design is tested and
    shown to be ineffective of sustaining a full load running
    state.
  37. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor writes:

    > REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
    > square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.

    Sounds poorly ventilated to me. How many fans, and where, and what
    was the path and volume of the airflow inside?

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  38. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor writes:

    > Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.

    The processor should never overheat with its own heatsink and fan if
    ambient temperature is within spec and ambient air can easily get to
    the CPU fan. Obviously if you install it in a hermetically sealed box
    it will overheat with or without a fan.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  39. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor writes:

    > Athlon64 runs alot cooler than a P4.

    The processor has to run well within spec; the actual temperature
    isn't very important.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  40. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:55:03 +0200, Mxsmanic
    <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Conor writes:
    >
    >> Athlon64 runs alot cooler than a P4.
    >
    >The processor has to run well within spec; the actual temperature
    >isn't very important.


    That's true, BUT there's also a practical maximum amount of
    heat that can be removed from a small core with an
    air-cooler. Since air-coolers are still the cheapest way
    known to get the job done, we see Intel's P4 pushing the
    limits, requiring systems to be set up with more attention
    to actual cooling requirements... an attention often not
    provided.
  41. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    kony writes:

    > That's true, BUT there's also a practical maximum amount of
    > heat that can be removed from a small core with an
    > air-cooler. Since air-coolers are still the cheapest way
    > known to get the job done, we see Intel's P4 pushing the
    > limits, requiring systems to be set up with more attention
    > to actual cooling requirements... an attention often not
    > provided.

    Systems have had poor cooling for years, as the example of arcade
    games shows (Z-80s don't get that warm!). Conversely, a P4 is fine as
    long as it's cooled properly.

    I don't think the trend towards ever-increasing cooling requirements
    is a good one, but since faster processors encourage software bloat,
    and software bloat in turn requires faster processors, it's hard to
    see how the trend will be stopped. If water cooling becomes
    commonplace the cost of computers is going to go up and their
    reliability is going to go down, and the average user isn't really
    going to gain much in exchange for this.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  42. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <vt77h158vn7ut7b5prk3ad8mdvfgr04807@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    says...
    > Conor writes:
    >
    > > REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
    > > square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.
    >
    > Sounds poorly ventilated to me. How many fans, and where, and what
    > was the path and volume of the airflow inside?
    >
    Have you ever seen an 80's arcade videogame?


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  43. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <11h72lpov40qp48@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    > Conor wrote:
    > > In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    > >
    > >
    > >>>However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    > >>>high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    > >>>itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.
    > >
    > >
    > > Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Actually, no. Unless you have inadequate cooling.
    >
    >
    Go look on the web...plenty of examples on reputable gamers sites.
    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  44. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor wrote:
    > In article <11h72lpov40qp48@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    >
    >>Conor wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
    >>>>>high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
    >>>>>itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>
    >>Actually, no. Unless you have inadequate cooling.
    >>
    >>
    >
    > Go look on the web...plenty of examples on reputable gamers sites.

    So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
  45. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <0087h1dgmmqjlqirffu9oaffafnugki3js@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
    says...
    > Conor writes:
    >
    > > Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
    >
    > The processor should never overheat with its own heatsink and fan

    Which is precisely why Intel tried to introduce the BTX form factor
    when they realised what a pup they had with the 3GHz+ P4. Ever seen the
    heatsink and fan arrangement for one of those?


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  46. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    In article <11h9p257iasrsc0@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...

    > So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
    >
    Nope. Plenty of examples with Intels own heatsink and fan working on a
    test bench, i.e not even in a case.


    --
    Conor

    "You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
    Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
  47. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor wrote:

    > In article <11h9p257iasrsc0@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    >
    >
    >>So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
    >>
    >
    > Nope. Plenty of examples with Intels own heatsink and fan working on a
    > test bench, i.e not even in a case.

    You making these arbitrary declarations doesn't mean any more than the last
    reported sighting of Elvis.
  48. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:28:14 +0100, Conor
    <conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote:

    >In article <11h9p257iasrsc0@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
    >
    >> So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
    >>
    >Nope. Plenty of examples with Intels own heatsink and fan working on a
    >test bench, i.e not even in a case.


    Part of the problem with test benches is increased
    recirculation of 'sink exhaust. Both Intel and AMD have
    specified rear chassis exhaust fans behind the 'sink for
    good reason. Even so, yes you do have to have all your
    ducks lined up in a row to keep one cool enough, unlike
    yesteryears' systems where the CPU stayed cool enough
    despite poor system setup.
  49. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

    Conor writes:

    > Have you ever seen an 80's arcade videogame?

    Not the inside.

    --
    Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
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