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Wooden case for PC. Should I?

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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 6:09:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
5.25 bays.

So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
mentioned?

-Jer

More about : wooden case

Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 7:09:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

I realize there may be some compromises (particularly the power
supply), though now that I'm getting this feedback I didn't realize
about the other hazards.

The power supply is a problem, but the drives, motherboard, risers(for
additional cards and low profile), and others can be doeable. Besides
a power supply...a hard drive is about an inch high. So I'd say 2
inches high would be generous for air to get in and out. But may I
remind everyone that I'm not looking at creating a fancy wooden box or
gaming computer. Its just a simply little computer for browsing the net
and running average applications.

But the more I think about this the more I'm thinking of looking some
more to find a manufactured case instead. If I can find that h340g
case, but could accept a regular ATX motherboard. I guess I can live
with that.

-jer
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 8:01:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

The FCC may have something to say about your wooden case. Computers tend to
generate RF signals that they would broadcast if it were not for the
shielding provided by their metal cases. You may interfere with your
neighbors' cordless phones, etc.


DaveW


<rjerry@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1125004157.756714.135050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
> wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
> examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
> natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
> metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
>
> Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
> aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
> these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
> dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
> motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
> obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
> 5.25 bays.
>
> So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
> mentioned?
>
> -Jer
>
Related resources
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 8:49:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

rjerry@myway.com wrote:

> I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
> wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
> examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
> natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
> metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

A fire isn't likely but it wouldn't meet U.L. safety.

Also, wood is not an EMI shield.

>
> Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
> aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case.

Good luck on making wood walls and braces thinner than stamped metal.

> I can't stand
> these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
> dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
> motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
> obsolete(low demand I guess).

A homebuilt case will be just as 'obsolete' as any other.

> I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
> 5.25 bays.

You need to try making a layout of the things you want to put in it and see
just how hard it is to cram that many devices in a 'slim' case.

>
> So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
> mentioned?
>
> -Jer
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 9:35:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

<sigh>

there's always something, now the FCC is pouting. After they built the
typewriter....it should've stopped there. damn those Eniac engineers!!
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 9:58:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

rjerry@myway.com wrote:
> I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
> wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
> examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
> natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
> metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
>
> Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
> aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
> these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
> dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
> motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
> obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
> 5.25 bays.
>
> So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
> mentioned?
>
> -Jer
>
I've seen it done a few times in different styles although trying for
that low a profile is going to force you into some design compromises.
If I were doing it I'd take the time to adhere some thick metal foil
(probably copper) to the inside of the wood for RF shielding and a bit
of heat protection. If you really want to get serious about downsizing
without compromising too much and you have the technical chops you might
like Commell's new board which is fast and super-compact.

http://www.commell.com.tw/News/News/News_20050422_LV-67...

This board has IDE support for 2 optical drives, SATA for your hard
drives, dual gigabit lan, USB 2, video and audio with relatively high
performance, and the list goes on and on. It supports 16x PCIe if you
want a high-performance video gaming card too. All that in a MB that
measures 170mm X 170mm (6.7" square)
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 1:52:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2005 14:09:17 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

>I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
>wooden computer case is a good idea

No, it's not good because it costs more and takes a long
time. But, if you want one anyway and like the result then
THAT is good.

> or a fire hazard

Computers don't generally catch on fire, but if it did, yes
that's a fire hazzard... it's your call.

>I've seen some
>examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
>natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
>metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

Maybe just putting some veneer on a metal case?

>
>Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
>aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
>these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
>dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
>motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
>obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
>5.25 bays.
>
>So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
>mentioned?


How did you plan on cooling it? You can't make a case no
larger, with significantly thicker panels, then stuff yet
another drive into it. IMO, it's highly advisable to make
it at least thick enough to allow an 80mm diameter fan(s),
as it creates a _LOT_ of noise trying to cool modern parts
with sub-80mm fans.

You'd also be doing a lot of work towards a case with very
little potential unless you're looking at using a custom
power supply, as even a mATX supply itself is about 2.5"
thick, ignoring that it then has to rely on a tiny pusher
fan on the rear and that it'd leave you 0" thick panels
above or below the PSU.

H340G is about 3 3/4" tall and you've already noted only one
drive bay, BUT if you did without the floppy drive and
modified that rack a little to improve airflow through the
area you might be able to fit a 2nd drive in it, though for
optimal results you'd probably ned to increase the air
intake on the front bezel some too... that case was
engineered back when systems (including HDDs) didn't produce
as much heat as today.

You could of course put veneer on it, but I suspect that
when all is said and done, you'd have spent a lot of time on
a system that is too limiting because it requires use of
relatively low heat parts. IMO, you should consider making
it bigger... make a nice endtable or filecabinet with the
system built into the base of it.
August 26, 2005 7:10:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2005 14:09:17 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

>I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
>wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
>examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
>natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
>metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
>
>Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
>aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
>these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
>dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
>motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
>obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
>5.25 bays.
>
>So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
>mentioned?
>
>-Jer

http://forum.ozcasemodz.com/viewtopic.php?t=310

Some zany modder and pix of his wooden homemade case

-T-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 10:25:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2005 14:09:17 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

>I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
>wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
>examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
>natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
>metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
>
>Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
>aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
>these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
>dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
>motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
>obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
>5.25 bays.
>
>So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
>mentioned?
>
I built one years ago round an old 486.
By far the simplest method is to use an existing case and simply strip
the outer panels off. These are then replaced with wood.
In my case ( 'scuse pun ) I used varnished ply - and each wooden panel
was lined with a sheet of copper foil.

I can't see how you're going to meet your 'slim' criteria though,
wood's just plain too bulky a material.

I would say that the only advantage in using wood is the aesthetic one
- and in order to meet that ( and not have the machine end up looking
like a plumber's toolbox ) you have to spend a great deal of time on
the finish.

Another factor to bear in mind is the heat. There's a minimal fire
risk ( I've had valve amps built with wooden cases..and none of them
ever erupted into flames..and they got significantly hotter than a
computer ), but the big problem is warpage. This effectively limits
you to using good quality ply for the case, which will withstand the
thermal variances better than solid wood.

All in all I'd say that wooden computer cases are perhaps best suited
to those situations where looks are more important than size or
functionality - and even then you might be better off just buying a
decent cabinet to stash your machine in.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 6:12:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2005 15:09:09 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

>I realize there may be some compromises (particularly the power
>supply), though now that I'm getting this feedback I didn't realize
>about the other hazards.
>
>The power supply is a problem,

Then focus on it first, there is no point in getting rest
spec'd one way then finding you had to redesign it all.


>but the drives, motherboard, risers(for
>additional cards and low profile), and others can be doeable. Besides
>a power supply...a hard drive is about an inch high. So I'd say 2
>inches high would be generous for air to get in and out.

2" high internal cavity would work (or should that be
"woodwork"), providing you don't stack the drives, leaving
1/2" unobstructed area above and below. With two drives,
there is no way to make that work AND have the 15 x 10"
dimensions you wanted.

Pick the system components you want to use, acquire them,
then lay them out. You can then find the minimal internal
dimensions possible for this case.


>But may I
>remind everyone that I'm not looking at creating a fancy wooden box or
>gaming computer. Its just a simply little computer for browsing the net
>and running average applications.
>
>But the more I think about this the more I'm thinking of looking some
>more to find a manufactured case instead. If I can find that h340g
>case, but could accept a regular ATX motherboard. I guess I can live
>with that.


Why regular ATX? There is no reason to believe mATX is
going away sooner than full ATX.. in fact mATX is very very
common right now, as most of the lower-cost OEM boxes are
using them.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 7:13:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <1125004157.756714.135050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
says...
> I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
> wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
> examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
> natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
> metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
>
> Any thoughts? Should I be concerned? My main reason for building one is
> aesthetics AND primarily because I want a slim pc case. I can't stand
> these bulky , metal, geeky cases. I would like to build one at the
> dimension of 15"(width)x2.5"(height)x10"(deep). I've seen micro-ATX
> motherboards and cases, but I'm finding out that they may go
> obsolete(low demand I guess). I like the AOPEN h340g, but I need TWO
> 5.25 bays.
>
> So back to wooden cases. Good or bad? suggestions about anything I
> mentioned?
>
THere's a company making alot of money selling wooden cases, mice and
keyboards.

Do it.


--
Conor

The child is grown, the dream is gone.
I have become comfortably numb. - Pink Floyd
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 8:18:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On 2005-08-25, rjerry@myway.com <rjerry@myway.com> wrote:
> I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
> wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
> examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
> natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
> metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.

I have one at home I built about 6 months ago. It is constructed out of
half inch mahagony - if that catches fire something was seriously wrong
in the first place. It is also about 7 inches high - I wanted something
that looked like a 1940's wireless set. Works fine but for a 2 1/2 inch
enclosure wood wouldn't be the first material of choice. As others have
indicated, maybe veneer is a better bet. I remember a product called
'microwood' from a few years ago that was almost paper-thin wood veneer
with a self stick backing. That would probably be your best bet for
this.


--
Andrew Smallshaw
andrews@sdf.lonestar.org
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 11:50:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Andrew Smallshaw wrote:

> On 2005-08-25, rjerry@myway.com <rjerry@myway.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm building a computer (very vanilla) and wanted to know if building a
>>wooden computer case is a good idea or a fire hazard. I've seen some
>>examples of wooden cases, but I don't know...it just doesn't seem
>>natural to build one out of wood. I've thought that perhaps putting
>>metal plates inside the case could make it much safer.
>
>
> I have one at home I built about 6 months ago. It is constructed out of
> half inch mahagony - if that catches fire something was seriously wrong
> in the first place.

Of course. But the point to safety standards is to prevent something
'seriously wrong' from turning into a serious disaster. I.e. A burnt
computer is one level of 'serious' but a burnt house is quite another.

Having said that, the odds of (thick solid) wood catching fire from a
computer failure is pretty low because the high power components are
supposed to be current limited.

> It is also about 7 inches high - I wanted something
> that looked like a 1940's wireless set. Works fine but for a 2 1/2 inch
> enclosure wood wouldn't be the first material of choice. As others have
> indicated, maybe veneer is a better bet. I remember a product called
> 'microwood' from a few years ago that was almost paper-thin wood veneer
> with a self stick backing. That would probably be your best bet for
> this.
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 4:59:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

DaveW writes:

> The FCC may have something to say about your wooden case. Computers tend to
> generate RF signals that they would broadcast if it were not for the
> shielding provided by their metal cases.

I haven't noticed any interference from modern PCs, even with the case
open, and even with other devices held right next to the case.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 5:00:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard writes:

> Of course. But the point to safety standards is to prevent something
> 'seriously wrong' from turning into a serious disaster. I.e. A burnt
> computer is one level of 'serious' but a burnt house is quite another.

Just treat the wood to make it fire-resistant. And use an Intel
processor so that it doesn't melt if the fan fails.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 10:35:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mxsmanic wrote:

> DaveW writes:
>
>
>>The FCC may have something to say about your wooden case. Computers tend to
>>generate RF signals that they would broadcast if it were not for the
>>shielding provided by their metal cases.
>
>
> I haven't noticed any interference from modern PCs, even with the case
> open, and even with other devices held right next to the case.

You may not but it can and does happen, although I'd be suspicious about
claims it affected the neighbors.

>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 10:40:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mxsmanic wrote:

> David Maynard writes:
>
>
>>Of course. But the point to safety standards is to prevent something
>>'seriously wrong' from turning into a serious disaster. I.e. A burnt
>>computer is one level of 'serious' but a burnt house is quite another.
>
>
> Just treat the wood to make it fire-resistant.

That would help but it would probably be easier to use a metal liner and
that solves the EMI situation as well.

> And use an Intel
> processor so that it doesn't melt if the fan fails.

What about a molten northbridge, or any of the other myriad components?

>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 28, 2005 2:20:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

ok. I've thought about it some more and this is my current design.

I will use wood only as asthetics, but the main material of the
computer will be out of aluminum sheets(not sure how thick). That is
what a computer case is typically made out of, correct? The wood, if
desired, will be added on top of the aluminum material. My only problem
is that "I've never done this before", well...with aluminum that is.
Great learning experience, but *could* be a b--- to pull off. But
simplicity is the key here. My main question is:

1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
better?
And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!

2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
Some of the risers are pretty pricey!

3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
pressure from the monitor?

I hope these are the only issues that I need to alert myself to. I want
this project to be very simple. I've been taking my pretty time here
about how I want to build this computer and what I want for a computer.
And now I have the image of the custom case, in my head, and I've made
the design so utterly simple. But now I need to know about the 3
concerns that mentioned above. comments?

you guys have been very helpful with all your posts. I didn't think I
would get this much feedback. thanks a bunch.

-jer
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 28, 2005 3:01:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

ok. I've thought about it some more and this is my current design.

I will use wood only as asthetics, but the main material of the
computer will be out of aluminum sheets(not sure how thick). That is
what a computer case is typically made out of, correct? The wood, if
desired, will be added on top of the aluminum material. My only problem
is that "I've never done this before", well...with aluminum that is.
Great learning experience, but *could* be a b--- to pull off. But
simplicity is the key here. My main question is:

1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
better?
And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!

2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
Some of the risers are pretty pricey!

3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
pressure from the monitor?

I hope these are the only issues that I need to alert myself to. I want
this project to be very simple. I've been taking my pretty time here
about how I want to build this computer and what I want for a computer.
And now I have the image of the custom case, in my head, and I've made
the design so utterly simple. But now I need to know about the 3
concerns that mentioned above. comments?

you guys have been very helpful with all your posts. I didn't think I
would get this much feedback. thanks a bunch.

-jer
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 28, 2005 5:30:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <1125206405.032575.322910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...

> 1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
> torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
> auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
> mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
> compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
> twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
> TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
> metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
> casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
> better?
> And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
> of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!
>
> 2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
> Some of the risers are pretty pricey!
>
> 3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
> hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
> pressure from the monitor?

1) Buy a cheap ass case instead of using ally. Drill out the rivets and
keep the motherboard tray,the HDD/floppy drive cage and cut out the
section that the expansion cards go into.

2) Because you've cut out the expansion card section, this won't be an
issue.

3) Use beams. THey don't need to be very thick.


--
Conor

The child is grown, the dream is gone.
I have become comfortably numb. - Pink Floyd
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 8:07:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> Perhaps, but did GPUs of that era do so?

GPUs of that era didn't require fans, and so they would not overheat.

I believe many current GPUs have thermal shutdown, especially those
with fans.

> I'm not trying to discount
> the usefulness of a thermal shutdow, but rather putting it
> in perspective that plenty of people do have systems of that
> era or older that continue to run fine without a CPU thermal
> shutdown feature.

If the CPU doesn't require a fan, or if the system is mostly idle most
of the time, they may get away with it indefinitely.

> The AMD CPU died from failure of another subsystem. Would
> any CPU survive from a signifant failure of the voltage
> regulation subsystem? Usually yes because of the typical
> nature of such failures, but still they have no protection
> from it. The focus should always be on the failure point
> before the CPU and you've made no mention at all of any fans
> to avoid.

The AMD CPU didn't come with a fan. The Intel processors do.

--
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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 8:41:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:07:54 +0200, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> Perhaps, but did GPUs of that era do so?
>
>GPUs of that era didn't require fans, and so they would not overheat.

Yes, there were common video cards in the earlier Athlon era
that used fans... not all, but not all now, either.



>
>I believe many current GPUs have thermal shutdown, especially those
>with fans.
>
>> I'm not trying to discount
>> the usefulness of a thermal shutdow, but rather putting it
>> in perspective that plenty of people do have systems of that
>> era or older that continue to run fine without a CPU thermal
>> shutdown feature.
>
>If the CPU doesn't require a fan, or if the system is mostly idle most
>of the time, they may get away with it indefinitely.
>
>> The AMD CPU died from failure of another subsystem. Would
>> any CPU survive from a signifant failure of the voltage
>> regulation subsystem? Usually yes because of the typical
>> nature of such failures, but still they have no protection
>> from it. The focus should always be on the failure point
>> before the CPU and you've made no mention at all of any fans
>> to avoid.
>
>The AMD CPU didn't come with a fan. The Intel processors do.

?

Both manufacturers sold retail and oem (bare) product. Buy
an OEM Intel CPU and you don't get a fan either- same diff.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 12:14:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <11h4gie7mnshca@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...

> I'm not thinking of fan failure and other 'normal' failures as those are
> catered for. It's the 'unexpected' kind that make for unforeseen problems.
>
In that case, all computers are in the same boat.



--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 12:15:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <njt3h1hvg5q3mpbfeiq8n21c738fq0fhou@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
says...

> I agree. But having some sort of protection in the CPU is an extra
> layer of security. All fans fail eventually, and I assume the MTBF of
> a CPU is greater than even that of the best fans (?).

However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.

--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 12:16:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <8cr4h1le923bs5p8nuc7lgi66rqmac0kqj@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
says...

> GPUs of that era didn't require fans, and so they would not overheat.
>
ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
regularly overheated in arcade machines.

>
> The AMD CPU didn't come with a fan. The Intel processors do.
>
So do AMD Retail.


--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 12:41:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On 27 Aug 2005 23:01:34 -0700, rjerry@myway.com wrote:

>ok. I've thought about it some more and this is my current design.
>
>I will use wood only as asthetics, but the main material of the
>computer will be out of aluminum sheets(not sure how thick). That is
>what a computer case is typically made out of, correct? The wood, if
>desired, will be added on top of the aluminum material. My only problem
>is that "I've never done this before", well...with aluminum that is.
>Great learning experience, but *could* be a b--- to pull off. But
>simplicity is the key here. My main question is:
>
>1.> HOW do I weld aluminum together? I've thought of either using a
>torch or maybe better yet that mixing compound that you usually find at
>auto part stores. But I don't know how strong that stuff will be. I
>mean if I drop this casing will it break? My experience with those
>compounds is that they do not hold up well when it comes to two metals
>twisting against each other. I know what ya'll are thinking..."DON'T
>TWIST THE CASE!". But seeing how little torque I applied to the two
>metals...makes me wonder how good of a adhesion there will be for a
>casing. Perhaps you know of a good compound or would torching work
>better?
>And to give you an idea of my casing design, just imagine square sheets
>of aluminum...welded together to form a box. I know...revolutionary!

I'd give up on the idea of welding ali...about the best you can do I
soft-solder it using a specialised solder and a rather poisonous flux.
It won't be a neat job either, or cheap.
Using a resin compound isn't likely to work either, not without
substantial bracing.
Unless you have access to an accurate bending machine, I'd advise
sticking to flat plates.

>
>2.> anybody know of a place where I can buy affordable riser cards?
>Some of the risers are pretty pricey!
>
>3.> if I put a monitor over this case, will thick aluminum be enough to
>hold it up? Or should I put a beams underneath to spread out the
>pressure from the monitor?

At a rough guesstimate you'd need 5mm ali unsupported.
Best bet would be to include cross beams ( you'll need beams anyway to
form the inner matrix of the case.
>
>I hope these are the only issues that I need to alert myself to. I want
>this project to be very simple. I've been taking my pretty time here
>about how I want to build this computer and what I want for a computer.
>And now I have the image of the custom case, in my head, and I've made
>the design so utterly simple. But now I need to know about the 3
>concerns that mentioned above. comments?

You know what I'd be inclined to do?
Adapt a case design for something else.
I'm sitting here looking at an old Akai cassette deck - the case is in
brushed ali, and all that would be needed to mod it would be to remove
and replace the front and rear.
The rear would be easy - just rip the back off an old desktop pc.
The front could be cut from wood - and about the only other mod
required would be a beam across the top to stiffen it.

If you looked long enough you might even find one of those old 70's
decks that were lined with solid mahogany ( Pioneer made a few of
these ).
They're not much smaller than a modern mini-tower though...

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 12:55:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor wrote:

> In article <11h4gie7mnshca@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
>
>
>>I'm not thinking of fan failure and other 'normal' failures as those are
>>catered for. It's the 'unexpected' kind that make for unforeseen problems.
>>
>
> In that case, all computers are in the same boat.

In that something can go wrong with any of them, yes. Never said otherwise.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 12:56:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor wrote:

> In article <njt3h1hvg5q3mpbfeiq8n21c738fq0fhou@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
> says...
>
>
>>I agree. But having some sort of protection in the CPU is an extra
>>layer of security. All fans fail eventually, and I assume the MTBF of
>>a CPU is greater than even that of the best fans (?).
>
>
> However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
> high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
> itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
>

Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with. In which case 'crawling'
is better than crashing.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 11:12:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> Both manufacturers sold retail and oem (bare) product. Buy
> an OEM Intel CPU and you don't get a fan either- same diff.

Well, the cheapo PCs I bought had an AMD processor, but the fan looked
generic, and the heatsink might have been as well. The boxed Intel
processors I bought to build replacements for the cheapos included
fans.

--
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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 11:13:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor writes:

> ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
> regularly overheated in arcade machines.

The arcade machines were poorly ventilated.

> So do AMD Retail.

I don't know what SonBook used to build their cheapo PC, but it had a
very cheap generic sleeve-bearing fan that failed within a week or so
(as did its replacement).

--
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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 29, 2005 11:14:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor writes:

> However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
> high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
> itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.

Would you rather that it overheat and suffer permanent damage instead?

--
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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 12:08:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...

> > However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
> > high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
> > itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
> >
>
> Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.

Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.


--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 12:08:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor wrote:
> In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
>
>
>>>However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
>>>high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
>>>itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
>>>
>>
>>Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.
>
>
> Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
>
>

Actually, no. Unless you have inadequate cooling.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 12:10:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <tfg6h1ptnqbfn59598ii8r1ascnlapos95@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
says...
> Conor writes:
>
> > ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
> > regularly overheated in arcade machines.
>
> The arcade machines were poorly ventilated.
>
REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.


--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 12:10:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor wrote:

> In article <tfg6h1ptnqbfn59598ii8r1ascnlapos95@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
> says...
>
>>Conor writes:
>>
>>
>>>ROFLMAO. 6502 and Z80 CPUS didn't need fans or heatsinks and they
>>>regularly overheated in arcade machines.
>>
>>The arcade machines were poorly ventilated.
>>
>
> REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
> square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.
>
>

If they overheated, then yes.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 12:10:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <7ig6h1pgv269udnbforou5l8ic1jovu8d7@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
says...
> Conor writes:
>
> > However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
> > high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
> > itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
>
> Would you rather that it overheat and suffer permanent damage instead?
>
Athlon64 runs alot cooler than a P4.

--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 5:06:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:14:01 +0200, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

>Conor writes:
>
>> However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
>> high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
>> itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
>
>Would you rather that it overheat and suffer permanent damage instead?


The underlying theme here should be that not *everyone*
should be designing systems... and no, I'm not pointing
fingers at any particular newsgroup participants, rather a
sweeping declaration that any *desktop* system with a P4
that ends up throttling needs rethought, sound not be left
running beyond the first moment the design is tested and
shown to be ineffective of sustaining a full load running
state.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 5:53:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor writes:

> REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
> square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.

Sounds poorly ventilated to me. How many fans, and where, and what
was the path and volume of the airflow inside?

--
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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 5:54:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor writes:

> Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.

The processor should never overheat with its own heatsink and fan if
ambient temperature is within spec and ambient air can easily get to
the CPU fan. Obviously if you install it in a hermetically sealed box
it will overheat with or without a fan.

--
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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 5:55:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor writes:

> Athlon64 runs alot cooler than a P4.

The processor has to run well within spec; the actual temperature
isn't very important.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 5:55:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:55:03 +0200, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

>Conor writes:
>
>> Athlon64 runs alot cooler than a P4.
>
>The processor has to run well within spec; the actual temperature
>isn't very important.


That's true, BUT there's also a practical maximum amount of
heat that can be removed from a small core with an
air-cooler. Since air-coolers are still the cheapest way
known to get the job done, we see Intel's P4 pushing the
limits, requiring systems to be set up with more attention
to actual cooling requirements... an attention often not
provided.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 10:39:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> That's true, BUT there's also a practical maximum amount of
> heat that can be removed from a small core with an
> air-cooler. Since air-coolers are still the cheapest way
> known to get the job done, we see Intel's P4 pushing the
> limits, requiring systems to be set up with more attention
> to actual cooling requirements... an attention often not
> provided.

Systems have had poor cooling for years, as the example of arcade
games shows (Z-80s don't get that warm!). Conversely, a P4 is fine as
long as it's cooled properly.

I don't think the trend towards ever-increasing cooling requirements
is a good one, but since faster processors encourage software bloat,
and software bloat in turn requires faster processors, it's hard to
see how the trend will be stopped. If water cooling becomes
commonplace the cost of computers is going to go up and their
reliability is going to go down, and the average user isn't really
going to gain much in exchange for this.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 12:57:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <vt77h158vn7ut7b5prk3ad8mdvfgr04807@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
says...
> Conor writes:
>
> > REally? 12" square PCB mounted on a board in a cabinet that is 2ft
> > square by 5ft high and only a monitor in mounted about a foot above it.
>
> Sounds poorly ventilated to me. How many fans, and where, and what
> was the path and volume of the airflow inside?
>
Have you ever seen an 80's arcade videogame?


--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 12:58:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <11h72lpov40qp48@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
> Conor wrote:
> > In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
> >
> >
> >>>However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
> >>>high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
> >>>itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.
> >
> >
> > Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, no. Unless you have inadequate cooling.
>
>
Go look on the web...plenty of examples on reputable gamers sites.
--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 12:58:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor wrote:
> In article <11h72lpov40qp48@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
>
>>Conor wrote:
>>
>>>In article <11h64vvho2plfad@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>However it has been proven in the P4 that if you run an app that has a
>>>>>high CPU utilisation such as some 3D games, the CPU will throttle
>>>>>itself when it gets hot and bring the system to a crawl.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Only if you have inadequate cooling to begin with.
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Actually, no. Unless you have inadequate cooling.
>>
>>
>
> Go look on the web...plenty of examples on reputable gamers sites.

So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 1:00:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <0087h1dgmmqjlqirffu9oaffafnugki3js@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
says...
> Conor writes:
>
> > Actually, with Intels own heatsink and fan.
>
> The processor should never overheat with its own heatsink and fan

Which is precisely why Intel tried to introduce the BTX form factor
when they realised what a pup they had with the 3GHz+ P4. Ever seen the
heatsink and fan arrangement for one of those?



--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 4:28:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <11h9p257iasrsc0@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...

> So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
>
Nope. Plenty of examples with Intels own heatsink and fan working on a
test bench, i.e not even in a case.


--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 4:28:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor wrote:

> In article <11h9p257iasrsc0@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
>
>
>>So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
>>
>
> Nope. Plenty of examples with Intels own heatsink and fan working on a
> test bench, i.e not even in a case.

You making these arbitrary declarations doesn't mean any more than the last
reported sighting of Elvis.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 4:31:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:28:14 +0100, Conor
<conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote:

>In article <11h9p257iasrsc0@corp.supernews.com>, David Maynard says...
>
>> So there are plenty of examples with inadequate cooling.
>>
>Nope. Plenty of examples with Intels own heatsink and fan working on a
>test bench, i.e not even in a case.


Part of the problem with test benches is increased
recirculation of 'sink exhaust. Both Intel and AMD have
specified rear chassis exhaust fans behind the 'sink for
good reason. Even so, yes you do have to have all your
ducks lined up in a row to keep one cool enough, unlike
yesteryears' systems where the CPU stayed cool enough
despite poor system setup.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 9:51:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Conor writes:

> Have you ever seen an 80's arcade videogame?

Not the inside.

--
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!