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Death to nerds? An open response to MAMEDev

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August 25, 2005 7:41:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

This is in response to an article that has been posted on
http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and Pokerom
collector...

I too read the article on the guys site, I am divided like you on the
options (and motives) of the article. It was cleverly written to at
least elicit SOME sympathy from all but the most negative reader.

The butterfly analogy.
Whereas here Haze (MAMEDev) has given an excellent and thorough analogy
to the situation, I feel he has missed an important aspect, to me at
least. Here goes. MAMEDev want the butterfly to look as natural as
possible, the lamers want superfly, however a majority of the MAME fans
out there are just greatful to be able to see the Butterfly as it once
was. However, everywhere you look where MAMEDev post, all you see is
"Damn we dont need users, sod all of em, wanting this and wanting
that..." Because you get nagged or whinged about it not being a Monarch
Enhanced 2006 version does not mean that we all feel that way, and we'd
be grateful if you'd all remember that before generalising about whether
we all want enhanced butterflies or not.

The excitement of emulation
Well I cant speak for the rest of the group, but some of the sparkle has
gone, not because we arent seeing more classics emulated, its because of
this continual and unabating negativity eminated from certain parts of
the MAME community. Its like a cancer. Chill out and ignore the rotten
apples. You wouldnt be getting a hard time if you stopped insulting a
large part of MAME's demographic.

So whats the problem here?
My only comment that I could think to make in a contructive way, is
maybe the reason you dont get feedback from the hardware vendors, is
because they dont want it to seem like they are legitimising MAME, in
case they want to enforce their IP at any time.

Hiscore.dat
Get rid of it already! Sheesh, you've already made it abundantly clear
both your contempt for this DAT file and single mindedness in ignoring
users wishes. If I were you, I would have removed it long ago.

Lets talk about target audience...
OK, I will go along with the falacy that MAME is primarily aimed at ROM
repairers (forgetting the legality of that! for a moment). Whether you
like it or not (and you seem to not) 99% of MAME's users us it to play
games. Personally I think that it is quite rediculous to try and
re-invent MAME toward any other goal, and not expect a backlash from
these said users. I believe you honestly believe what you are saying,
but I think it is MAMEDev, that have dropped the ball here... You can
have your accuracy, you can have your 100% total control, but dont try
and make gamers look like lying theives and try and get the holier than
tho' attitutde, it wouldnt have worked for MAME 0.1 and it wont work for
MAME 0.100.

In addition...

Samples should go. Using the 'if we leave it as it is, it wont get
fixed' reasoning, along with the 'MAME is about documentation' then
samples should go. To say it portays an accurate representation of the
game is to legitimise the enhanced butterfly theorum... :-)

Backgrounds. Mmmm... Look accurate, but its hardly an accurate
representation of what the game did is it? It should go. Same goes for
bezels... all fluff which has no bearing on the accurate emulation of
the original machine.

History.dat - If MAME is about helping people restore their property,
why the hell do they need a DAT file telling them about their game?
Should go.

In addition... If it *is* about historically and accurately representing
a machine in its native environment, then why have disclaimer screens?
I know why you have them, but its not about playing the games is it, so
why have them? You'll be inundate with bug reports you say? but, but
but its not about playing them... surely?

I dont mean to come across as totally negative, and in some respects,
this letter only conveys the negative aspects of MAME. MAME is indeed
wonderful. I've used it since day one, i've followed the changes, both
code wise, and politically. Parts of it were indeed caustic, however
the letter was sincere. Please, do not publicly deride game players.
Dont tie us all with the same brush. You are going to get 'wankers'
demanding/moaning. Ignore them. YOU may not think its about the
gamers, but WE do. As you dont care about US, why should WE care about
YOU? The answer is we should care about each other.

And now a positive comment...
Since MAMEDev's formation, and the way the project is now handled, great
strides have been made in the development of this emulator, both in
accuracy and driver numbers. The abolition of Testdrivers (good!), the
more ernest leaning towards legitimate development, have all been good.
I meant it when I said the DAT's should go, along with the samples.

You may feel that you have the final say with MAME, and you do. But
bear in mind that a lot of us consider it 'our' emulator (however
wrongly) and it is in fact you that has been entrusted with its care. I
hope one day the MAMEdev and the gamers can be reconciled. Dont forget,
part of the point of MAME is to preserve history, and if no one played
it, no one illegally obtained ROMs, and if MAME was deleted from every
hard disk, it would have failed in its mission.

Peace... long live MAME!

--
MCR
MAME(tm) - History In The Making
www.pleasure-dome.org.uk

More about : death nerds open response mamedev

Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:57:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

MCR wrote:
> This is in response to an article that has been posted on
> http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
> inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and Pokerom
> collector...
>
> I too read the article on the guys site, I am divided like you on the
> options (and motives) of the article. It was cleverly written to at
> least elicit SOME sympathy from all but the most negative reader.

Agreed. Regardless of your point of view, it was refreshingly well-written.
>
> The butterfly analogy.
> Whereas here Haze (MAMEDev) has given an excellent and thorough analogy
> to the situation, I feel he has missed an important aspect, to me at
> least. Here goes. MAMEDev want the butterfly to look as natural as
> possible, the lamers want superfly, however a majority of the MAME fans
> out there are just greatful to be able to see the Butterfly as it once
> was. However, everywhere you look where MAMEDev post, all you see is
> "Damn we dont need users, sod all of em, wanting this and wanting
> that..." Because you get nagged or whinged about it not being a Monarch
> Enhanced 2006 version does not mean that we all feel that way, and we'd
> be grateful if you'd all remember that before generalising about whether
> we all want enhanced butterflies or not.

How about the "Playboy" analogy?
The photographers who take the wonderful pictures for Playboy are most
certainly *NOT* perverts, are they? No, of course not. They are
professionals would be just as happy snapping photos of bowls of fruit
or various wildlife instead of voluptuous, nude females. The fact that
people can get aroused and toss off to them is just "a nice side effect"
of their efforts.

But... if all of that masturbation was somehow upsetting to the
photographers (because after all, it might be insulting to their true
artistic intentions), don't you think they would simply stop publishing
the photos?

Think about it.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 2:48:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

Jeff-B wrote:

> How about the "Playboy" analogy?
> The photographers who take the wonderful pictures for Playboy are most
> certainly *NOT* perverts, are they? No, of course not. They are
> professionals would be just as happy snapping photos of bowls of fruit
> or various wildlife instead of voluptuous, nude females. The fact that
> people can get aroused and toss off to them is just "a nice side
> effect" of their efforts.

I was wondering where the airbrushing (which is really, really obvious in a
lot of their photos) went in this analogy?

I suppose you could draw parallels between that and the hiscore/history DAT
files...

D.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 2:55:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

MCR wrote:

> Hiscore.dat
> Get rid of it already! Sheesh, you've already made it abundantly
> clear both your contempt for this DAT file and single mindedness in
> ignoring users wishes. If I were you, I would have removed it long
> ago.
> In addition...
>
> Samples should go. Using the 'if we leave it as it is, it wont get
> fixed' reasoning, along with the 'MAME is about documentation' then
> samples should go. Backgrounds. Mmmm... Look accurate, but its hardly an
> accurate
> representation of what the game did is it? It should go. Same goes
> for bezels... all fluff which has no bearing on the accurate
> emulation of the original machine. History.dat - If MAME is about helping
> people restore their property,
> why the hell do they need a DAT file telling them about their game?
> Should go.
>
> In addition... If it *is* about historically and accurately
> representing a machine in its native environment, then why have
> disclaimer screens? I know why you have them, but its not about
> playing the games is it, so why have them? You'll be inundate with
> bug reports you say? but, but but its not about playing them...
> surely?

I said something similar in a previous post. If you're going to document the
games then you don't need to emulate them - either *document* them on paper,
or simulate them. Either way, nobody gets to play the games, and nobody gets
sued or makes money off the MAME team's efforts.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?G14123DAB

I thought this idea would have some merit... Honest :-)

D.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 5:47:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

MCR wrote:
> This is in response to an article that has been posted on
> http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
> inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and Pokerom
> collector...
SNIP

We agree on a great many things that have been discussed over the years
in this group, but why do you care what about MameDev's opinion of us
mortals? Why seek acceptance from them? I for one an glad for all the
items you want removed to create a neat Ethical Mame. Those games
without the samples would not feel right to me. I wish the sounds were
generated accurately (and they will be one day), but they are close
enough for now.

--
FSogol
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 7:50:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

Hi,

> I said something similar in a previous post. If you're going to document the
> games then you don't need to emulate them

I think you do.

Otherwise you will never know whether you guessed right in the multitude
of places where you have to guess on stuff.

Simulation would prove an alternative but you have to have the system
running, ideally playable, to again check what you've found. And that
is _way_ beyond current systems.

So MAMEDev could emulate to perfection in secrecy and then release their
findings in form of PDF-Files and screenshots. Nobody of the public would
be able to test or compare against real machines. And it would be no fun
for the developers. Sourcecode to a driver in a framework as MAME provides
it is much richer in content than any resulting paper-document could be.

To witness check out the many occasions where people conduct "virtual
experiments". Like patching old games, even making new ones, or plugging
freshly dumped ROMs into different boards to prove that the hardware had
been cloned...

Ciao, MM
--
Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn. +49 228 624013.
http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 10:59:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

Olivier Galibert's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through
his body were:
> On 2005-08-25, MCR <mark.coleman10@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Backgrounds.
> What would be even cooler would be svg[1] versions of them though.
> That way it would be possible to print them again with good quality.

Hey, I make SVG images for using on my vinyl plotter. If SVG support was
made for backgrounds, I'd make SVG versions for the different bezels and
backgrounds.
August 26, 2005 12:16:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

FSogol wrote:
> MCR wrote:
>
>> This is in response to an article that has been posted on
>> http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
>> inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and Pokerom
>> collector...
>
> SNIP
>
> We agree on a great many things that have been discussed over the years
> in this group, but why do you care what about MameDev's opinion of us
> mortals? Why seek acceptance from them? I for one an glad for all the
> items you want removed to create a neat Ethical Mame. Those games
> without the samples would not feel right to me. I wish the sounds were
> generated accurately (and they will be one day), but they are close
> enough for now.
>
Sorry, perhaps I wasnt being clear. The open letter was a response to
something that was written at Haze's site. I agree with those changes
too, and MAMEDev will do what MAMEDev will do, however I dont believe
that we are 'mortals' (implying that they are somehow better). The
difference between say, Haze and myself is Haze dedicates his skills and
time to MAME, I cannot (I dont have the skills). This does not make him
better than me.

The reason for the letter was a vein hope that they may stop with their
negative attitude to common users and at least acknowledge that the
noisy minority do not represent the silent majority.

--
MCR
MAME(tm) - History In The Making
www.pleasure-dome.org.uk
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 12:16:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

MCR wrote:
> FSogol wrote:
>
>> MCR wrote:
>>
>>> This is in response to an article that has been posted on
>>> http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
>>> inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and
>>> Pokerom collector...
>>
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>> We agree on a great many things that have been discussed over the
>> years in this group, but why do you care what about MameDev's opinion
>> of us mortals? Why seek acceptance from them? I for one an glad for
>> all the items you want removed to create a neat Ethical Mame. Those
>> games without the samples would not feel right to me. I wish the
>> sounds were generated accurately (and they will be one day), but they
>> are close enough for now.
>>
> Sorry, perhaps I wasnt being clear. The open letter was a response to
> something that was written at Haze's site. I agree with those changes
> too, and MAMEDev will do what MAMEDev will do, however I dont believe
> that we are 'mortals' (implying that they are somehow better). The
> difference between say, Haze and myself is Haze dedicates his skills and
> time to MAME, I cannot (I dont have the skills). This does not make him
> better than me.
>
> The reason for the letter was a vein hope that they may stop with their
> negative attitude to common users and at least acknowledge that the
> noisy minority do not represent the silent majority.
>
I know what you were saying (and Mortals is their attitude, not mine),
but I'm asking why do you care? Why is it important to have their
acceptance/respect?

--
FSogol
August 26, 2005 12:33:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

FSogol wrote:
> MCR wrote:
>
>> FSogol wrote:
>>
>>> MCR wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is in response to an article that has been posted on
>>>> http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
>>>> inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and
>>>> Pokerom collector...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>>
>>> We agree on a great many things that have been discussed over the
>>> years in this group, but why do you care what about MameDev's opinion
>>> of us mortals? Why seek acceptance from them? I for one an glad for
>>> all the items you want removed to create a neat Ethical Mame. Those
>>> games without the samples would not feel right to me. I wish the
>>> sounds were generated accurately (and they will be one day), but they
>>> are close enough for now.
>>>
>> Sorry, perhaps I wasnt being clear. The open letter was a response to
>> something that was written at Haze's site. I agree with those changes
>> too, and MAMEDev will do what MAMEDev will do, however I dont believe
>> that we are 'mortals' (implying that they are somehow better). The
>> difference between say, Haze and myself is Haze dedicates his skills
>> and time to MAME, I cannot (I dont have the skills). This does not
>> make him better than me.
>>
>> The reason for the letter was a vein hope that they may stop with
>> their negative attitude to common users and at least acknowledge that
>> the noisy minority do not represent the silent majority.
>>
> I know what you were saying (and Mortals is their attitude, not mine),
> but I'm asking why do you care? Why is it important to have their
> acceptance/respect?
>

Because, whether I like it or not, I care about the MAME community, and
as such I feel it is important to foster good relations with the
MAME(tm) maintainers. Whether this is important to everyone or not is a
matter of perspective I suppose. Are you saying that you like being
identified as a parasite or leech on MAMEDev's back?


--
MCR
MAME(tm) - History In The Making
www.pleasure-dome.org.uk
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 12:33:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

MCR wrote:
> FSogol wrote:
>
>> MCR wrote:
>>
>>> FSogol wrote:
>>>
>>>> MCR wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is in response to an article that has been posted on
>>>>> http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
>>>>> inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and
>>>>> Pokerom collector...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SNIP
>>>>
>>>> We agree on a great many things that have been discussed over the
>>>> years in this group, but why do you care what about MameDev's
>>>> opinion of us mortals? Why seek acceptance from them? I for one an
>>>> glad for all the items you want removed to create a neat Ethical
>>>> Mame. Those games without the samples would not feel right to me.
>>>> I wish the sounds were generated accurately (and they will be one
>>>> day), but they are close enough for now.
>>>>
>>> Sorry, perhaps I wasnt being clear. The open letter was a response
>>> to something that was written at Haze's site. I agree with those
>>> changes too, and MAMEDev will do what MAMEDev will do, however I dont
>>> believe that we are 'mortals' (implying that they are somehow
>>> better). The difference between say, Haze and myself is Haze
>>> dedicates his skills and time to MAME, I cannot (I dont have the
>>> skills). This does not make him better than me.
>>>
>>> The reason for the letter was a vein hope that they may stop with
>>> their negative attitude to common users and at least acknowledge that
>>> the noisy minority do not represent the silent majority.
>>>
>> I know what you were saying (and Mortals is their attitude, not mine),
>> but I'm asking why do you care? Why is it important to have their
>> acceptance/respect?
>>
>
> Because, whether I like it or not, I care about the MAME community, and
> as such I feel it is important to foster good relations with the
> MAME(tm) maintainers. Whether this is important to everyone or not is a
> matter of perspective I suppose. Are you saying that you like being
> identified as a parasite or leech on MAMEDev's back?

Nah, I seldom care what others think. If I am a parasite for using a
program that they created to play games, what are they? They didn't
create those games. Aren't they leeching off the work Atari and
Williams put into games? (I don't believe so, but that's what name
calling brings, but I'm sure in their minds, my statement proves their
points).

As for the community, I like the one here just fine. When I need help
or a recommendation, you or David, or even Skids (who I've always given
a hard time), helps out. If I request a file, Cordata or someone
uploads in in minutes. Why should I care if OG or Haze hate my guts?

My prediction: Mame goes private sometime in the next 2 years.


--
FSogol
August 26, 2005 1:38:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

FSogol wrote:
8<-------------
> Nah, I seldom care what others think. If I am a parasite for using a
> program that they created to play games, what are they? They didn't
> create those games. Aren't they leeching off the work Atari and
> Williams put into games? (I don't believe so, but that's what name
> calling brings, but I'm sure in their minds, my statement proves their
> points).

This is what I mean by MAMEDev alienating the community. This is not
something that I like seeing, however justified either way. Me and
MAMEDev havent always seen eye to eye, but that is because I, like you,
will not boost any ego's or pander to them.

> As for the community, I like the one here just fine. When I need help
> or a recommendation, you or David, or even Skids (who I've always given
> a hard time), helps out. If I request a file, Cordata or someone
> uploads in in minutes. Why should I care if OG or Haze hate my guts?

This is part of what I am saying. When they 'piss off' the users,
irrispective of whether they care or not, can not be a good thing.

> My prediction: Mame goes private sometime in the next 2 years.
>
>

With the source freely available up to the previous version? Worse case
scenario, MAME dies and someone else takes over the mantle. This can
mean that they make illegal builds, add warez games etc. And MAMEDev
old and new get tied with the same brush as petty-pirates (Quite ironic!).
--
MCR
MAME(tm) - History In The Making
www.pleasure-dome.org.uk
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:15:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

On 2005-08-25, FSogol <FSogol@nospamplease.org> wrote:
> Why should I care if OG or Haze hate my guts?

Hate requires way too much energy to waste on a simple rom collector ;-)


> My prediction: Mame goes private sometime in the next 2 years.

Not a chance. None. Look at it from our point of view, and you'll
see why.

OG.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:28:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

On 2005-08-25, MCR <mark.coleman10@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> This is what I mean by MAMEDev alienating the community.

Do you feel like you're part of the same community than the whining
neogeo kiddies and others of that kind?

> Me and MAMEDev havent always seen eye to eye, but that is because I,
> like you, will not boost any ego's or pander to them.

Remember that no matter how handy the term is, there really is no such
thing as Mamedev-the-organization. It's just a bunch of people, a
little short of a hundred or so, each with his own opinion on pretty
much everything. Between here and the boards you'll get the opinions
of RB, Aaron, Haze, Tour, Guru and a bunch of others and if you look
closely you'll see they're very different on a number of aspects.
Including where it comes to the attitude towards the diverse
categories of users.

And in any case, at least from my point of view, disagreeing is
perfectly normal and healthy. It's when it becomes nonfunny
insults[1] that it becomes boring.

OG.

[1] Quality insults can be quite fun, don't you think ? :-)
August 26, 2005 6:24:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

Olivier Galibert wrote:
> On 2005-08-25, MCR <mark.coleman10@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>This is what I mean by MAMEDev alienating the community.
>
>
> Do you feel like you're part of the same community than the whining
> neogeo kiddies and others of that kind?

No I dont, I see myself as a user, that is grateful for what I get.
Sometimes I find that a release has something of interest to me. This
can be with added drivers or something like the changing of a core
function. To be honest OG, I am not that keen on Neo-geo, or games with
more than 16 colours :-) These idiots that whine should not be taken as
the views of the majority of MAME users. I do realise that MAMEs
demographic is diverse, and I accept that there are idiots amongst the
ranks, but that doesnt mean that I have to be labelled with them does
it? Merely because I am a user, or as Guru said (l)user.

> Remember that no matter how handy the term is, there really is no such
> thing as Mamedev-the-organization. It's just a bunch of people, a
> little short of a hundred or so, each with his own opinion on pretty
> much everything. Between here and the boards you'll get the opinions
> of RB, Aaron, Haze, Tour, Guru and a bunch of others and if you look
> closely you'll see they're very different on a number of aspects.
> Including where it comes to the attitude towards the diverse
> categories of users.

I didnt factor that in of course. To be honest, what I read on MAME.NET
from a few high profile dev's I assume to be 'the official line'. I
know in the past you and I havent always agreed, but where it differs is
I respect what you do, and do not complain because <insert game here>
doesnt work. I suppose the reason I assume that you are an organisation
is because of the www.mamedev.org url, and because a few dev's are very
vocal online.. I saw it (wrongly) as an official spokesperson.

> And in any case, at least from my point of view, disagreeing is
> perfectly normal and healthy. It's when it becomes nonfunny
> insults[1] that it becomes boring.

I hope so. And I hope that our disagreements wont just be seen as me
being arguementative for the sake of it, or you being seen as being
defensive. If I can make one DEV see that normal users are indeed
'normal' then my posting wouldnt have been in vain.

> OG.
>
> [1] Quality insults can be quite fun, don't you think ? :-)

Indeed they are, as long as in context they are seen as funny!

Respect.


--
MCR
MAME(tm) - History In The Making
www.pleasure-dome.org.uk
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:01:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

It's much easier to add the proper sound if you already have sample
support. The samples show you what you need to hook to, what the
overall design looks like and what it should probably sound like when
finished. The skill set that you need to emulate sound is not
necessarily the same as the one to figure out the cpu interface and
even if it is it's just easier to save a step.

I would guess any games w/o samples are probably due to a lack of good
samples.
August 26, 2005 10:44:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

* Olivier Galibert Wrote in alt.games.mame:

>> Samples should go.
>
> Samples go when we start implementing discrete simulation for a given
> game. Removing them before that time is stupid.

Curious about this point. Since MAME is not about playing the games,
how does a sample help with the emulation/documentation aspect?

If the game does not have emulated sound, why not just leave it out
until it IS emulated? Arent there already a number of games with no
sound emulation AND no sample set?

Is that simply because the samples are not available?

--
David
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 3:13:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:41:38 GMT, MCR <mark.coleman10@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>This is in response to an article that has been posted on
>http://haze.mameworldREMOVETHIS.info/ #, it is not intended as
>inflamatory, it is just a letter from a MAME user, a gamer and Pokerom
>collector...
>
>I too read the article on the guys site, I am divided like you on the
>options (and motives) of the article. It was cleverly written to at
>least elicit SOME sympathy from all but the most negative reader.
>
>The butterfly analogy.
>Whereas here Haze (MAMEDev) has given an excellent and thorough analogy
>to the situation, I feel he has missed an important aspect, to me at
>least. Here goes. MAMEDev want the butterfly to look as natural as
>possible, the lamers want superfly, however a majority of the MAME fans
>out there are just greatful to be able to see the Butterfly as it once
>was. However, everywhere you look where MAMEDev post, all you see is
>"Damn we dont need users, sod all of em, wanting this and wanting
>that..." Because you get nagged or whinged about it not being a Monarch
>Enhanced 2006 version does not mean that we all feel that way, and we'd
>be grateful if you'd all remember that before generalising about whether
>we all want enhanced butterflies or not.
>

We don't need / want specific groups of users. The article
differentiates between these groups. Those using MAME as a way to
avoid paying for things, those using MAME to make profits out of
selling either MAME itself, supported ROMsets, or operating
pay-per-play cabs in a commercial environment, and those who seem to
want to dictate to us what we should / should not be doing with the
project as if they were in charge of it without even understanding why
MAME exists and our goals.

>The excitement of emulation
>Well I cant speak for the rest of the group, but some of the sparkle has
>gone, not because we arent seeing more classics emulated, its because of
>this continual and unabating negativity eminated from certain parts of
>the MAME community. Its like a cancer. Chill out and ignore the rotten
>apples. You wouldnt be getting a hard time if you stopped insulting a
>large part of MAME's demographic.
>

A large part of why we insult them comes from the problems they cause
us. Two wrongs don't make a right etc. but venting our frustration in
the hope that maybe they start to understand one or two things about
MAME along the way seems neccessary.

>In addition... If it *is* about historically and accurately representing
>a machine in its native environment, then why have disclaimer screens?
>I know why you have them, but its not about playing the games is it, so
>why have them? You'll be inundate with bug reports you say? but, but
>but its not about playing them... surely?
>

Understanding, spreading of correct information, to hinder those who
do try and operate MAME in a cabinet. A bug report indicates an error
in our emulation, if we are already aware of errors in our emulaiton
we don't want to be flooded with reports. If we're not aware of
problems then they can be useful for us to improve the emulation. You
don't have a point.

I think everything else has been answered. I'll leave it at that.
August 27, 2005 8:03:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

Well, I went and read the referenced article and here's my piece on
it...

I, for one, use the hiscore.dat file as I like to keep my high
scores so I can try hard to beat them in the future. I do understand
however that this isn't true to most machines. In my case though, my
PC doesn't wait in Galaga mode all the time :) 

As for the butterfly analogy, I like it. I'm not looking for a new
super version of an old game. I'm more than happy to be able to pull
up a game from my past and play it. I'm even happy to see that some of
the screen glitches are there. Makes me feel like I'm sitting on a
tall stool in front of a stand up machine in the local arcade (that's
LONG since gone). Hell, the MAME team has provided emulation to run
games I've never seen before and will probably never play but I have
the ROM's for them all the same. If there's a game I see and wish to
play that tells me it's not emulated entirely correctly or doesn't
work at all, who am I to complain? I could always go on a hunt for an
arcade that has the original machine. I find it best to just wait and
see if it's fixed in the next release or two. These guys want to make
it work, that's part of why the dumped the ROMs to begin with.

Anyone who's trying to make money with a MAME cabinet needs to be
shot. The people who just want more and more need to realize they
could have nothing. Me, I'm more than happy with what I've been given.

Thank you for providing me a piece of the past...
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 12:38:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.mame (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:03:47 GMT, Psycho <psycho@tbcia.net> wrote:

> Well, I went and read the referenced article and here's my piece on
>it...
>
> I, for one, use the hiscore.dat file as I like to keep my high
>scores so I can try hard to beat them in the future. I do understand
>however that this isn't true to most machines. In my case though, my
>PC doesn't wait in Galaga mode all the time :) 
>
> As for the butterfly analogy, I like it. I'm not looking for a new
>super version of an old game. I'm more than happy to be able to pull
>up a game from my past and play it. I'm even happy to see that some of
>the screen glitches are there. Makes me feel like I'm sitting on a
>tall stool in front of a stand up machine in the local arcade (that's
>LONG since gone). Hell, the MAME team has provided emulation to run
>games I've never seen before and will probably never play but I have
>the ROM's for them all the same. If there's a game I see and wish to
>play that tells me it's not emulated entirely correctly or doesn't
>work at all, who am I to complain? I could always go on a hunt for an
>arcade that has the original machine. I find it best to just wait and
>see if it's fixed in the next release or two. These guys want to make
>it work, that's part of why the dumped the ROMs to begin with.
>
> Anyone who's trying to make money with a MAME cabinet needs to be
>shot. The people who just want more and more need to realize they
>could have nothing. Me, I'm more than happy with what I've been given.
>
> Thank you for providing me a piece of the past...

I'm also an 80's gamer that feels basically the same way. In fact, if
MAME devolpement stopped now I'd still be totally happy with what I
have and what's been accomplished. Its already enough to keep me happy
long into the future.

We're getting to the stage now where a lot of the games approaching
emulation stage overlapped the time when strong home consoles were
available. Thats when arcade games started using a lot of wacky
proprietary controls to compete, stuff that makes them not translate
well to standard joystick/button setups (does anyone play Prop-Cycle
in MAME?). Maybe this is where many MAME developers will get their
wish of just being a ROM archive, because I doubt most people have any
intention of putting triple monitors, a model fishing pole, fiberglass
jet ski, or soccer ball on a tether on their MAME cabs.

Tim
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