Thoughts. . . (Warning: Philosophical content)

We (the wifer and I) recently acquired March of the Penguins and were talking about how much we already knew about penguins due to a tertiary course in Ornithology and David Attenborough's Life Of Birds series (which we also have on DVD).

Wikipedia attributes the following quote to Attenborough:

That and some of the things I've read here recently lead me to the following hypothesis:

Agnostics and atheists observe the negative, the suffering to support or conclude there is, for all intents and purposes, no God; whereas apologists see the positive, the good and support or conclude there is, for all intents and purposes, God.

Much in the same way, persons have challenged their or other's convictions with the phrase: why do bad things happen to good people? I ask: Why do good things happen to bad people?

First of all, I disagree with your (implicit) lumping together Agnostics and atheists, just because they do not believe in your concept of God. Being agnostic is quite different from being an atheist.

Secondly, I disagree that religious people always look at the positive in order to justify their faith. The Bible, and the Islam as well, are full of warnings of what ill will befall upon you when you stray from the designated path of faith. In personal observations I have made, the more strict certain religious convictions are, the less joyfull or open to beauty many people become, in fact they scare each other into keeping to the true faith (or else....).

No. But its not a case of me trying to justify God's existence. Despite my use of the term "evidence", I used the term loosely with a pejorative overtone.

I dont agree with that, Mac. I think you're interpreting certain atheistic movements a certain way with that perspective; faith and religion, in a spiritual/religious context, are not synonymous to me and atheism, despite some who claim to be part of an "atheists movement", is not a faith based religion. I dont have faith in an atheistic creed, I simply do not believe in God and therefore when it comes to census time I'm "classified" as an atheist.

My "loose" use of the word evidence was evidently a poor choice. For me its most certainly not an issue of evidence as much as an issue of existential belief.

I understand clearly the difference between an Agnostic and an Atheist; I apologise for the use of the word 'evidence' as I can see it was a trifle flippant and ambiguous on my part to do so.

That freaky lady that dessecrates the funerals of our soldiers believes her "faith" is solid Yet she is as negative as you can get.

The K.K.K. also invokes their faith in Jesus to spread hate & negitivity.

I do believe in some form of diety although have no clear hypothesis on the nature of this diety.

I also believe all monotheistic religons worship the same god they just quabble over the nature in which that one god should be recognized,again creating negitivity.

"Bomber & Pike" Atheist or Agnostic which ever you choose seem to me {at least here in these pages} to be very positive people. I rarely agree with Pike but have to give him kudos for having a generally positive outlook.

It would be better in my opinion for all children to be void of religous "reconing" for their actions... Then the little Catholic kids wouldn't grow up hating the Jews for Murdering their "Savior" {The Mel Gibsonesq Message}, Or the Muslims hate the Jews for dessecrating their temple and vice versa. The age of reason should be advanced with longer life spans to allow a kid to grow up a kid. The age of 14 seems like a good place to start opening their minds to the various faiths & let them make their own decisions rather then force feeding them what their great great grandfathers believed so "Thats what you are and Thats That!"

Jesus Christ did focus on the positive [Referring on the 8 beattitudes],whereas the old testiment [referring to the 10 commandments] focused on the negative "Rath of fire & brimstone" and all that jazz.

Creationisim misses some key points... Dinosaurs, other planets & solar systems and the ever evolving species which inhabit this planet.
If god Created Adam & Eve as evolved humans then where did all the neanderthal stone spear heads & axes & such come from??

Jus' My 2 Cents....

I think your generalizing with that statement. Furthermore, true atheists and agnostics seldom use that argument.

I have, however, seen many people who've "had bad things happen to them" use that exact argument. This evidence is purely anecdotal, but my niece was raped by her bus driver 3 years ago. Before she was raped she was very religious. After she was raped she was all of a sudden an atheist. And she used the "if there was a god he would never have let me been raped" argument.

Now, of course, she believes in God.

In my humble opinion, those who use the "suffering" argument are not true atheists. Atheists use logic and evidence to prove their points, not philosophical arguments like "there is no god because billions of people are suffering."

Just my thoughts... ;-) Good topic BTW.

[quote="mpjesse"]

For me the argument that suffering and a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god are mutually exclusive IS logical, and is therefore a perfectly valid reason for a lack of belief.
I consider myself an atheist and I use that argument.

I disagree. Even if there were a God, where is it written or said that "God" should end suffering? No where. You're supposed to pray to God to end suffering- which in and of itself is illogical.

Is there a logical reason for a "God" to end or prevent suffering? It's a bit of a paradox because even Christians don't know what the hell their God is or what he's supposed to do.

If I remember right according to the bible, it says that satan actually rules on the earth right now. So I guess people should actually blame him not God.

Yes but if "God," existed, he could pwn the crap out of "Satan."

I believe ya' missed Deigo's ,Pollacks , Cossaks & Huns....

And to The nOOb.[]Die you infantesimal Rabbit pellet disguised as a full sized turd[/]

Edit to fit on one line

twice even

Yes but if "God," existed, he could pwn the crap out of "Satan."

In that case, wasn't it Michael that was sent to fight Satan instead of God? hmm. According to legend, yes.

Grammar.

An English professor wrote the words, "woman without her man is nothing" on the blackboard and directed the students to punctuate it correctly.
The men wrote: "Woman, without her man, is nothing."

The women wrote: "Woman! Without her, man is nothing."

Methodists, originally, formed to read the Bible and come back to meet every few months, even years, to discuss their interpretations of the Bible.
Thus, the name of Methodists. They met regularly to talk about the Bible. The founder of the religion believed that the Bible was full of Human Errors in recording and that the only true way to interpret the Bible was through philosophy.

Now, I've been to many methodists churches.. well, 3. I found they all preached their own agenda, their own ideas, and shunned people who went to other churches. When I spoke to regulars about attending other churches, Lutheran, Christian, Non-denominational, they didn't respond very well. They believe one should only attend one church and be done with it.

I believe that with current teachings of religions based on higher powers or dieties, they preach being close minded.

A very popular minister in Grand Rapids, Michigan, has a book out called "Velvet Elvis" which goes on to questions every thing about the Bible. This guy preaches on Sunday yet he turns around and writes a book questioning the Bible?

That's a sermon I want to go check out. That's an open enough mind for me to make me want to go check out what message he brings to everyone.

Science is religions' worst enemy.

First of all, I disagree with your (implicit) lumping together Agnostics and atheists, just because they do not believe in your concept of God. Being agnostic is quite different from being an atheist.

Secondly, I disagree that religious people always look at the positive in order to justify their faith. The Bible, and the Islam as well, are full of warnings of what ill will befall upon you when you stray from the designated path of faith. In personal observations I have made, the more strict certain religious convictions are, the less joyfull or open to beauty many people become, in fact they scare each other into keeping to the true faith (or else....).Any religious fanatic that is willing to blow themselves up is hardly in fear of anything.

I can assure you, as an atheist, the birth of my 3 daughters was no less an
amazing experience as what you've had.

As for atheists seeing the bad, that's so untrue as to be a sin...

My second daughter died after about 3 hrs. But in that, I see only good. We
wanted 2 kids. Had she not died I wouldn't have my little Emily!

Im glad Columbus didnt listen to educated civillization.

You're wrong on that Dwells. I would be offended if I was lumped in the category of 'agnostic' simply because a believer felt that the end result was the same for agnostic and atheistic believers.

Congratulations to you and yours on your second child's birth. I sincerely hope all goes well.

The only thing in life is to enjoy the fruits of labor.

right you are

Odd. He strikes me as being sad.

This is you being better! Wow, glad I didn't know you before this!

i don't know who said it (sounds like George Carlin or Bill Hicks) but the quote "giving birth is no more a miracle than taking a crap" popped into my head when i read that.

maybe I'll change my mind when I have kids...



Anyone else find it frightening when someone says that without belief there would be no reason to steer clear of sex, drugs, theft, violence etc? (apart from the fact that the first two aren't really that bad)

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

Why because carbon dating might be off a thousand years give or take when we're talking in millions of years???

Dude please step back into reality for a min. & look at what you posted...

Then whom do you suppose made those stone tools.. Leprechauns??, Nessie or Sasquatch maybe??

You can be sad and positive. And forlorn does try to be positive in his sadness. Sometimes the road back from depression or similar situations is hard, and he's trying to keep a positive outlook.

Mike.

9lb 13oz, 22in. 6:25 PM (23:25 GMT)

Welcome Xanthine Eric Cavanaugh to the world.

Anyway, like I said-- or tried to say-- its perspective. We have the exact same evidence, just a different interpetation. Grand Canyon: a little water over a long period of time, or a huge amount of water over a short period of time? Plate tectonics: moving slowly over a long period of time, or moved very quickly over a short period of time?

Either something or someone is in control or not. We exist for a reason or not.

Or, at any rate, I can always apply the old outdoorsman axiom: It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.