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Can't burn CDs

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February 5, 2005 1:47:09 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec Easy
Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a CD-R, I can't
format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all goes well but at
1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output device during the burn cycle
with all files skipped whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is
this a hardware problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?

Thanks

Vince

Vince
--
vince

More about : burn cds

Anonymous
February 5, 2005 4:27:19 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Hi Vince.
I have two machines at this moment on my desk. Both similar Hp8700 series.
One works fine with burning using Adaptec software and the other one works
intermittently. On this "bad" one, it seems to work all the time burning
mp3 to CDRW using MusicMatch Jukebox, but it does take quite a bit longer to
access the disks than what I consider normal. I'm going to change out the
CDRW drive as the likely cause of errors in Adaptec and one other program.
But clean your drive(s) first and try unused CDRW's to test with. Then you
may want to check out other software for testing out your CDRW drive also.
With regards to capacity of CD disks, I wouldn't go over 610MB on a 650MB
disk. Just something I kind of remember about overhead writing.
B.rgds,
Kevin
"vince" <vince@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2E104A4D-DF91-4F67-9E7E-771F3AE27BF0@microsoft.com...
> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec Easy
> Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a CD-R, I can't
> format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all goes well but at
> 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output device during the burn
cycle
> with all files skipped whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is
> this a hardware problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>
> Thanks
>
> Vince
>
> Vince
> --
> vince
February 5, 2005 6:44:28 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

These things are touchy at times. I did have Adaptec 4, but I upgraded to
Roxio 6 via eBay (a lot cheaper) and I now have no problems at all. I have
recently backed up all my mp3's as *data* to a lot of CD's and I filled most
of them to the 699 or 700 meg mark without any problems.

Did you check to see what type of blank CD's your writer will work with?
Dumb question, I know.....but I found with Adaptec 4, that those with a blue
or silver coating on the recording side worked just fine (Verbatim or Sony,
for instance).....Kodac Gold would not record at all.

Good luck......Heather

"vince" <vince@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2E104A4D-DF91-4F67-9E7E-771F3AE27BF0@microsoft.com...
> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec Easy
> Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a CD-R, I can't
> format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all goes well but at
> 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output device during the burn
cycle
> with all files skipped whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is
> this a hardware problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>
> Thanks
>
> Vince
>
> Vince
> --
> vince
Related resources
February 5, 2005 6:44:29 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Heather (and Kevin):

Thanks for you info. I'll try the cleaner.
Heather: The latter is not an issue I think, because while I had some
intermittent problems with various CD-R types up until 6 months ago (Except
for CD-RWs), they mostly worked. Now however nothing works!

Vince

"Heather" wrote:

> These things are touchy at times. I did have Adaptec 4, but I upgraded to
> Roxio 6 via eBay (a lot cheaper) and I now have no problems at all. I have
> recently backed up all my mp3's as *data* to a lot of CD's and I filled most
> of them to the 699 or 700 meg mark without any problems.
>
> Did you check to see what type of blank CD's your writer will work with?
> Dumb question, I know.....but I found with Adaptec 4, that those with a blue
> or silver coating on the recording side worked just fine (Verbatim or Sony,
> for instance).....Kodac Gold would not record at all.
>
> Good luck......Heather
>
> "vince" <vince@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:2E104A4D-DF91-4F67-9E7E-771F3AE27BF0@microsoft.com...
> > I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec Easy
> > Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a CD-R, I can't
> > format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all goes well but at
> > 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output device during the burn
> cycle
> > with all files skipped whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is
> > this a hardware problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Vince
> >
> > Vince
> > --
> > vince
>
>
>
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 7:07:14 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

It's unusual to hear that there were problems with Kodak Gold's. They have
always been the best performers for me. I am disappointed that they seem to
have gone out of the "CD" business.


"Heather" <figgs@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:u5rzyN8CFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Did you check to see what type of blank CD's your writer will work with?
> Dumb question, I know.....but I found with Adaptec 4, that those with a
blue
> or silver coating on the recording side worked just fine (Verbatim or
Sony,
> for instance).....Kodac Gold would not record at all.
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 10:14:41 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How much
ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely sure
that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as a
virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.

I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of burning
a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x without a
problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x. I
still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my system
from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in memory
(Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x burn
from time to time and succeed.

BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.


vince wrote:
> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
February 5, 2005 11:29:45 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

(Answering Ogg here re two emails......getting lazy, grin.)

The *gold problem* sort of baffled the tech at Staples as well, but to test
it, he gave me a couple of Verbatim CD's and they worked just fine. So he
agreed that it had to be the Kodak Gold.

Mine is a Samsung CD-RW and it is 4 years old. Used to work just fine with
Adaptec 4......but I ran into a snag copying something last Spring and
bought the Roxio 6 Basic version.....what a difference!! I also have
CloneCD and MusicMatch, but have only used CloneCD once or twice and haven't
bothered with MM.

My Samsung writer is 8x4x32....and it records at 8X. Due to some buffering
drops, I dropped down to 4X on one....but I backed up all my mp3's as *data*
at 8 and they recorded just fine.

Heather

"Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:IAaNd.25247$Ck1.2073548@news20.bellglobal.com...
> It's unusual to hear that there were problems with Kodak Gold's. They
have
> always been the best performers for me. I am disappointed that they seem
to
> have gone out of the "CD" business.
>
>
> "Heather" <figgs@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:u5rzyN8CFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Did you check to see what type of blank CD's your writer will work with?
> > Dumb question, I know.....but I found with Adaptec 4, that those with a
> blue
> > or silver coating on the recording side worked just fine (Verbatim or
> Sony,
> > for instance).....Kodac Gold would not record at all.
>
>
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 4:37:22 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Ogg wrote :-

> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
> impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted.

I have a 'client' who (still) uses MSBackup with Adaptec4 - DirectCD on an
old Win98 box and uses CD-R's as the backup media. The reason he uses CD-R's
is that they are much cheaper than CD-RW's - and he scraps them when they
are full and 'out of date'.

The point I'm trying to make is that DirectCD (v.4 at least) requires (and
allows) CD-R's to be formatted (as with CD-RW's) so that they can be used
for packet writing.

Each CD-R (two are used alternately) allows (him) about two weeks worth of
daily backups before they're full - and as each backup uses exactly the same
name, 'overwriting' hides the previous backup session and the process can
continue until each of the CD's are full. Note that it doesn't actually
delete the previous session, it just makes it 'invisible' and inaccessible.
The latest session (on any disk) being the only one that can be seen.

Anyway, this CD-R packet writing setup has been keeping his backup regime
running for the past 4 or 5 years, which included a major HDD failure and
came into its own when we were able to completely restore all of his data.

Mart


"Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
> impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How
> much
> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely
> sure
> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as a
> virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>
> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
> burning
> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x without a
> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x. I
> still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my system
> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in
> memory
> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x burn
> from time to time and succeed.
>
> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>
>
> vince wrote:
>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
>> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
>> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
>> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
>> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
>> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
>> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>
>
February 6, 2005 4:37:23 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Interesting, Mart. I confess I don't know all that much about this writing
to CD stuff other than general backups and the odd music CD for the car
player. I use CD-R's. I do have a rewritable CD here that I got from my
bud just north of you in Dumfries, but haven't used it.....so it has to be
formatted?? Something I didn't know.

Cheers from a warmer Brampton......Figgs

"Mart" <mart(NoSpam)@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ebcaox%23CFHA.1392@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Ogg wrote :-
>
> > Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
> > impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted.
>
> I have a 'client' who (still) uses MSBackup with Adaptec4 - DirectCD on an
> old Win98 box and uses CD-R's as the backup media. The reason he uses
CD-R's
> is that they are much cheaper than CD-RW's - and he scraps them when they
> are full and 'out of date'.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that DirectCD (v.4 at least) requires (and
> allows) CD-R's to be formatted (as with CD-RW's) so that they can be used
> for packet writing.
>
> Each CD-R (two are used alternately) allows (him) about two weeks worth of
> daily backups before they're full - and as each backup uses exactly the
same
> name, 'overwriting' hides the previous backup session and the process can
> continue until each of the CD's are full. Note that it doesn't actually
> delete the previous session, it just makes it 'invisible' and
inaccessible.
> The latest session (on any disk) being the only one that can be seen.
>
> Anyway, this CD-R packet writing setup has been keeping his backup regime
> running for the past 4 or 5 years, which included a major HDD failure and
> came into its own when we were able to completely restore all of his data.
>
> Mart
>
>
> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
> > impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How
> > much
> > ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely
> > sure
> > that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as a
> > virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
> >
> > I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
> > burning
> > a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x without
a
> > problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x.
I
> > still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my
system
> > from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in
> > memory
> > (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x
burn
> > from time to time and succeed.
> >
> > BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
> >
> >
> > vince wrote:
> >> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
> >> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
> >> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
> >> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
> >> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
> >> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
> >> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 4:37:23 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Mart wrote:

> Anyway, this CD-R packet writing setup has been keeping his backup
> regime running for the past 4 or 5 years, which included a major HDD
> failure and came into its own when we were able to completely restore
> all of his data.

Ok.. Atleast he was able to confirm that the backup was viable and reliable,
then power to him. But personally I would not trust the DirectCD (UDF)
method of storing important data as system files. UDF is usually intended
for manual drag-n-drop file copies to disc.
And I am still perplexed to hear about formatting CD-R's.

I wonder if your client would accomplish the same result by simply writing
to the CD-R's in multiple data sessions instead.
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 11:53:20 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Heather wrote :-

> ... I do have a rewritable CD ....
> so it has to be formatted??

Yes or no <g> It only needs formatting if you intend to use it for packet
writing.

If you just want to use it as a "CD-R" then you don't format it. BUT, being
a CD-RW, you can erase it at a later time and re-use it, of course.

Mart


"Heather" <figgs@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:uCrwnS$CFHA.3728@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Interesting, Mart. I confess I don't know all that much about this
> writing
> to CD stuff other than general backups and the odd music CD for the car
> player. I use CD-R's. I do have a rewritable CD here that I got from my
> bud just north of you in Dumfries, but haven't used it.....so it has to be
> formatted?? Something I didn't know.
>
> Cheers from a warmer Brampton......Figgs
>
> "Mart" <mart(NoSpam)@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:ebcaox%23CFHA.1392@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Ogg wrote :-
>>
>> > Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
>> > impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted.
>>
>> I have a 'client' who (still) uses MSBackup with Adaptec4 - DirectCD on
>> an
>> old Win98 box and uses CD-R's as the backup media. The reason he uses
> CD-R's
>> is that they are much cheaper than CD-RW's - and he scraps them when they
>> are full and 'out of date'.
>>
>> The point I'm trying to make is that DirectCD (v.4 at least) requires
>> (and
>> allows) CD-R's to be formatted (as with CD-RW's) so that they can be used
>> for packet writing.
>>
>> Each CD-R (two are used alternately) allows (him) about two weeks worth
>> of
>> daily backups before they're full - and as each backup uses exactly the
> same
>> name, 'overwriting' hides the previous backup session and the process can
>> continue until each of the CD's are full. Note that it doesn't actually
>> delete the previous session, it just makes it 'invisible' and
> inaccessible.
>> The latest session (on any disk) being the only one that can be seen.
>>
>> Anyway, this CD-R packet writing setup has been keeping his backup regime
>> running for the past 4 or 5 years, which included a major HDD failure and
>> came into its own when we were able to completely restore all of his
>> data.
>>
>> Mart
>>
>>
>> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> > Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
>> > impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How
>> > much
>> > ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely
>> > sure
>> > that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as
>> > a
>> > virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>> >
>> > I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
>> > burning
>> > a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x
>> > without
> a
>> > problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x.
> I
>> > still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my
> system
>> > from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in
>> > memory
>> > (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x
> burn
>> > from time to time and succeed.
>> >
>> > BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>> >
>> >
>> > vince wrote:
>> >> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
>> >> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
>> >> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
>> >> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
>> >> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
>> >> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
>> >> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 2:00:11 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the same way
you would a floppy.
Roxio's Easy CD Creator and Ahead's InCD both provide this option.
I always recommend CD-R's and not CD-RW's base on price and, if you know how
a CD-RW works, you would question the long-term reliability.
I can buy at least 4 CD-R's for the price of one CD-RW.

"Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
> impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How
> much
> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely
> sure
> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as a
> virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>
> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
> burning
> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x without a
> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x. I
> still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my system
> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in
> memory
> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x burn
> from time to time and succeed.
>
> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>
>
> vince wrote:
>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
>> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
>> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
>> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
>> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
>> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
>> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>
>
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 9:23:59 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

> I wonder if your client would accomplish the same result by simply
> writing to the CD-R's in multiple data sessions instead.

This would mean the client would have to look for an alternative to using
MSBackup.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP
mike.maltby@gmail.com


Ogg <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote:

> Ok.. Atleast he was able to confirm that the backup was viable and
> reliable, then power to him. But personally I would not trust the
> DirectCD (UDF) method of storing important data as system files. UDF
> is usually intended for manual drag-n-drop file copies to disc.
> And I am still perplexed to hear about formatting CD-R's.
>
> I wonder if your client would accomplish the same result by simply
> writing to the CD-R's in multiple data sessions instead.
February 6, 2005 9:32:30 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

This is a straight copy/paste from the first page of the current (well, one
sub-build back) of InCD's Help file:

InCD uses only rewritable discs (CD-RW, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW, DVD-RW). Discs
which can only be written to once (CD-R, DVD+R or DVD-R) cannot be used with
InCD.



Shane


"Richard Goh" <me@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:cu5lvb02np8@enews2.newsguy.com...
> Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the same way
> you would a floppy.
> Roxio's Easy CD Creator and Ahead's InCD both provide this option.
> I always recommend CD-R's and not CD-RW's base on price and, if you know
> how
> a CD-RW works, you would question the long-term reliability.
> I can buy at least 4 CD-R's for the price of one CD-RW.
>
> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
>> impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How
>> much
>> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely
>> sure
>> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as a
>> virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>>
>> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
>> burning
>> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x without
>> a
>> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x. I
>> still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my
>> system
>> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in
>> memory
>> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x
>> burn
>> from time to time and succeed.
>>
>> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>>
>>
>> vince wrote:
>>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
>>> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
>>> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
>>> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
>>> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
>>> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
>>> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>>
>>
>
>



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MFTZ453JE:J]=[PD<%F^QW=FY;.:R2Z#U.RB?F\ASF1$=WFRN?#<`""<(=6D'
M!HH'`H:!)(,"!@$&( B.?0B2BP<(!6Y(`YH@`IV?CQX`5IH"C9Z@H067G@4%
2J".J`[5;L%-_9[<Q?L$2$0`[
`
end
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 9:50:52 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Shane

I have Roxio Easy CD Creator installed.
I have just slipped a brand new CD-R into the writer.
Right-clicked the drive, and clicked format,
(not expecting anything to happen).

Formatting took maybe half a second.

I right-clicked a file > send to > drive D,
the file was copied to the CD-R, I was able to open it
and then I was able to delete it!

Dragged another file from the desktop onto the shortcut
to my D drive, no problem!

Opened the file, and altered the contents, and saved it.
Copied the file from the CD-R onto my desktop, looked at
it's properties 'Archive'

The CD-R seems to behave exactly as I would expect only a CD-RW
to behave.

Somebody been pulling the wool over our eyes?

Gob-smacked!!!

George Gee


*Shane* has posted this message:

> This is a straight copy/paste from the first page of the current
> (well, one sub-build back) of InCD's Help file:
>
> InCD uses only rewritable discs (CD-RW, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW,
> DVD-RW). Discs which can only be written to once (CD-R, DVD+R or
> DVD-R) cannot be used with InCD.
>
>
>
> Shane
>
>
> "Richard Goh" <me@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:cu5lvb02np8@enews2.newsguy.com...
>> Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the
>> same way you would a floppy.
>> Roxio's Easy CD Creator and Ahead's InCD both provide this option.
>> I always recommend CD-R's and not CD-RW's base on price and, if you
>> know how
>> a CD-RW works, you would question the long-term reliability.
>> I can buy at least 4 CD-R's for the price of one CD-RW.
>>
>> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's
>>> generally impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be
>>> formatted. How much
>>> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make
>>> absolutely sure
>>> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such
>>> as a virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>>>
>>> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
>>> burning
>>> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x
>>> without a
>>> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is
>>> 4x. I still have the original 256meg ram only. The only
>>> difference in my system
>>> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded
>>> in memory
>>> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an
>>> 8x burn
>>> from time to time and succeed.
>>>
>>> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>>>
>>>
>>> vince wrote:
>>>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with
>>>> Adaptec Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the
>>>> latter on a CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in
>>>> the layout all goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error
>>>> in the output device during the burn cycle with all files skipped
>>>> whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware
>>>> problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 10:13:09 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

George,

In which case it would appear that you are using DirectCD rather than
EasyCD since EasyCD does not support packet writing or drag and drop.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP
mike.maltby@gmail.com


George Gee <george.nomaps@ntlworld.xom> wrote:

> Shane
>
> I have Roxio Easy CD Creator installed.
> I have just slipped a brand new CD-R into the writer.
> Right-clicked the drive, and clicked format,
> (not expecting anything to happen).
>
> Formatting took maybe half a second.
>
> I right-clicked a file > send to > drive D,
> the file was copied to the CD-R, I was able to open it
> and then I was able to delete it!
>
> Dragged another file from the desktop onto the shortcut
> to my D drive, no problem!
>
> Opened the file, and altered the contents, and saved it.
> Copied the file from the CD-R onto my desktop, looked at
> it's properties 'Archive'
>
> The CD-R seems to behave exactly as I would expect only a CD-RW
> to behave.
>
> Somebody been pulling the wool over our eyes?
February 6, 2005 10:19:25 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

George,

I must look into this further. I know you can format a CDRW in ISO/Joliet
with Nero. I don't know how it is with Roxio, but you can't install InCD
without also having Nero, so maybe there's not perceived to be a point in
enabling InCD to use CDRs. And maybe earlier builds could?

Possibly there's a difference between Nero 5x and 6x, as the latter has many
companion apps, most of which I haven't bothered exploring. However whether
any of them enable drag and drop operations to UDF formatted CDR, I don't
know.

Don't have time right now though.


Shane


"George Gee" <george.nomaps@ntlworld.xom> wrote in message
news:%23w99$yHDFHA.2232@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Shane
>
> I have Roxio Easy CD Creator installed.
> I have just slipped a brand new CD-R into the writer.
> Right-clicked the drive, and clicked format,
> (not expecting anything to happen).
>
> Formatting took maybe half a second.
>
> I right-clicked a file > send to > drive D,
> the file was copied to the CD-R, I was able to open it
> and then I was able to delete it!
>
> Dragged another file from the desktop onto the shortcut
> to my D drive, no problem!
>
> Opened the file, and altered the contents, and saved it.
> Copied the file from the CD-R onto my desktop, looked at
> it's properties 'Archive'
>
> The CD-R seems to behave exactly as I would expect only a CD-RW
> to behave.
>
> Somebody been pulling the wool over our eyes?
>
> Gob-smacked!!!
>
> George Gee
>
>
> *Shane* has posted this message:
>
>> This is a straight copy/paste from the first page of the current
>> (well, one sub-build back) of InCD's Help file:
>>
>> InCD uses only rewritable discs (CD-RW, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW,
>> DVD-RW). Discs which can only be written to once (CD-R, DVD+R or
>> DVD-R) cannot be used with InCD.
>>
>>
>>
>> Shane
>>
>>
>> "Richard Goh" <me@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>> news:cu5lvb02np8@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>> Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the
>>> same way you would a floppy.
>>> Roxio's Easy CD Creator and Ahead's InCD both provide this option.
>>> I always recommend CD-R's and not CD-RW's base on price and, if you
>>> know how
>>> a CD-RW works, you would question the long-term reliability.
>>> I can buy at least 4 CD-R's for the price of one CD-RW.
>>>
>>> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>>> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's
>>>> generally impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be
>>>> formatted. How much
>>>> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make
>>>> absolutely sure
>>>> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such
>>>> as a virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>>>>
>>>> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
>>>> burning
>>>> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x
>>>> without a
>>>> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is
>>>> 4x. I still have the original 256meg ram only. The only
>>>> difference in my system
>>>> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded
>>>> in memory
>>>> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an
>>>> 8x burn
>>>> from time to time and succeed.
>>>>
>>>> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> vince wrote:
>>>>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with
>>>>> Adaptec Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the
>>>>> latter on a CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in
>>>>> the layout all goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error
>>>>> in the output device during the burn cycle with all files skipped
>>>>> whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware
>>>>> problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>
>
>
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 10:39:02 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Hi Mike & Shane

Ok, the fog is beginning to lift!
On ejecting the disc, a dialogue box appears, and informs me:

The CD you just ejected from drive (D:)  is readable in all CD-R/CD-RW drives
running DirectCD. It is not readable on CD-ROM dives.

So, to make a CD-R disc that is readable on *any* CD drive, then it
needs to be *burned* using EasyCD or InCD.

Thanks

George Gee


*Mike M* has posted this message:

> George,
>
> In which case it would appear that you are using DirectCD rather than
> EasyCD since EasyCD does not support packet writing or drag and drop.
> --
> Mike Maltby MS-MVP
> mike.maltby@gmail.com
>
>
> George Gee <george.nomaps@ntlworld.xom> wrote:
>
>> Shane
>>
>> I have Roxio Easy CD Creator installed.
>> I have just slipped a brand new CD-R into the writer.
>> Right-clicked the drive, and clicked format,
>> (not expecting anything to happen).
>>
>> Formatting took maybe half a second.
>>
>> I right-clicked a file > send to > drive D,
>> the file was copied to the CD-R, I was able to open it
>> and then I was able to delete it!
>>
>> Dragged another file from the desktop onto the shortcut
>> to my D drive, no problem!
>>
>> Opened the file, and altered the contents, and saved it.
>> Copied the file from the CD-R onto my desktop, looked at
>> it's properties 'Archive'
>>
>> The CD-R seems to behave exactly as I would expect only a CD-RW
>> to behave.
>>
>> Somebody been pulling the wool over our eyes?
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 11:28:34 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Hi George,

One small correction:

> So, to make a CD-R disc that is readable on *any* CD drive, then it
> needs to be *burned* using EasyCD or InCD.

Make that EasyCD or Nero. InCD is Ahead's equivalent of DirectCD.
--
Mike


George Gee <george.nomaps@ntlworld.xom> wrote:

> Hi Mike & Shane
>
> Ok, the fog is beginning to lift!
> On ejecting the disc, a dialogue box appears, and informs me:
>
> The CD you just ejected from drive (D:)  is readable in all CD-R/CD-RW
> drives running DirectCD. It is not readable on CD-ROM dives.
>
> So, to make a CD-R disc that is readable on *any* CD drive, then it
> needs to be *burned* using EasyCD or InCD.
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 11:43:50 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Mike

Correct, thanks for the heads up.

Also, as Mart points out in his post, if data is deleted from a formatted
CD-R,
it does not free up disc space, whereas it does with a CD-RW.

George Gee


*Mike M* has posted this message:

> Hi George,
>
> One small correction:
>
>> So, to make a CD-R disc that is readable on *any* CD drive, then it
>> needs to be *burned* using EasyCD or InCD.
>
> Make that EasyCD or Nero. InCD is Ahead's equivalent of DirectCD.
> --
> Mike
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 1:12:21 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Absolutely correct Mike!

MSBackup permits an automated (scheduled) backup which, without
intervention, uses the same 'batch' name. Hence as Mike implied, MSBackup to
a CD-R allows the backup to 'overwrite' the previous batch with new one of
the same name. Multiple data sessions was/is not a feasible alternative for
this application.

Mart


"Mike M" <No_Spam@Corned_Beef.Only> wrote in message
news:o lTsLkHDFHA.3728@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> I wonder if your client would accomplish the same result by simply
>> writing to the CD-R's in multiple data sessions instead.
>
> This would mean the client would have to look for an alternative to using
> MSBackup.
> --
> Mike Maltby MS-MVP
> mike.maltby@gmail.com
>
>
> Ogg <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok.. Atleast he was able to confirm that the backup was viable and
>> reliable, then power to him. But personally I would not trust the
>> DirectCD (UDF) method of storing important data as system files. UDF
>> is usually intended for manual drag-n-drop file copies to disc.
>> And I am still perplexed to hear about formatting CD-R's.
>>
>> I wonder if your client would accomplish the same result by simply
>> writing to the CD-R's in multiple data sessions instead.
>
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 1:27:12 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

> Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the same way
> you would a floppy.

Not quite! - Because you cannot *delete* (or re-format) a packet written
file on a formatted CD-R, you can only to write to it, until it is full.
Therefore, you cannot consider a CD-R exactly the same as a floppy disk.
Hence, 'life-time' may not necessarily be a factor in your choice, however
once written-to, then the read life should be 'normal' for a CD-R.

On the other hand, by using a formatted CD-RW, then sure, you can *delete*
and write files and reformat, ad-infinitum throughout the life of the media.

Mart


"Richard Goh" <me@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:cu5lvb02np8@enews2.newsguy.com...
> Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the same way
> you would a floppy.
> Roxio's Easy CD Creator and Ahead's InCD both provide this option.
> I always recommend CD-R's and not CD-RW's base on price and, if you know
> how a CD-RW works, you would question the long-term reliability.
> I can buy at least 4 CD-R's for the price of one CD-RW.
>
> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally
>> impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted. How
>> much
>> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make absolutely
>> sure
>> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such as a
>> virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>>
>> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
>> burning
>> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x without
>> a
>> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is 4x. I
>> still have the original 256meg ram only. The only difference in my
>> system
>> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded in
>> memory
>> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an 8x
>> burn
>> from time to time and succeed.
>>
>> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>>
>>
>> vince wrote:
>>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with Adaptec
>>> Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the latter on a
>>> CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in the layout all
>>> goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error in the output
>>> device during the burn cycle with all files skipped whether a small
>>> 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware problem or should
>>> I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 2:55:53 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Shane (and George), you may now be starting to make a different but none the
less, valid point.

But my initial reply was to discount Ogg's assertion that "Formatting a CD-R
disc makes no sense. I would believe it's generally impossible anyway.
Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be formatted." by describing a real,
working situation.

I pointed out that it was/is possible AND I gave an example of where and how
packet writing - using a formatted CD-R - is still in current use, to
illustrate my argument. However, time, software and hardware has moved on
somewhat since they were introduced. The application (MSBackup) was at the
time an ideal candidate (and maybe the only practicable candidate?) for
using CD-R's in this manner.

However, particularly with the introduction of XP (which may also depend on
bundled burning software) and with the general reputation of unreliability
of using packet written disks, especially between OS's and often just
between PC's and even between CD-ROM's, then software manufacturers appear
to have 'modified' their more recent packages, viz: Nero's InCD.

Now that's a whole new ball-game for discussion. (or not <g>)

So I'm neither advocating or decrying the practice of formatting CD-R's for
packet writing, just pointing out that it can, and has been done.

Mart


"Shane" <arthursixpence@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:36n90bF5211alU1@individual.net...
> George,
>
> I must look into this further. I know you can format a CDRW in ISO/Joliet
> with Nero. I don't know how it is with Roxio, but you can't install InCD
> without also having Nero, so maybe there's not perceived to be a point in
> enabling InCD to use CDRs. And maybe earlier builds could?
>
> Possibly there's a difference between Nero 5x and 6x, as the latter has
> many companion apps, most of which I haven't bothered exploring. However
> whether any of them enable drag and drop operations to UDF formatted CDR,
> I don't know.
>
> Don't have time right now though.
>
>
> Shane
>
>
> "George Gee" <george.nomaps@ntlworld.xom> wrote in message
> news:%23w99$yHDFHA.2232@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Shane
>>
>> I have Roxio Easy CD Creator installed.
>> I have just slipped a brand new CD-R into the writer.
>> Right-clicked the drive, and clicked format,
>> (not expecting anything to happen).
>>
>> Formatting took maybe half a second.
>>
>> I right-clicked a file > send to > drive D,
>> the file was copied to the CD-R, I was able to open it
>> and then I was able to delete it!
>>
>> Dragged another file from the desktop onto the shortcut
>> to my D drive, no problem!
>>
>> Opened the file, and altered the contents, and saved it.
>> Copied the file from the CD-R onto my desktop, looked at
>> it's properties 'Archive'
>>
>> The CD-R seems to behave exactly as I would expect only a CD-RW
>> to behave.
>>
>> Somebody been pulling the wool over our eyes?
>>
>> Gob-smacked!!!
>>
>> George Gee
>>
>>
>> *Shane* has posted this message:
>>
>>> This is a straight copy/paste from the first page of the current
>>> (well, one sub-build back) of InCD's Help file:
>>>
>>> InCD uses only rewritable discs (CD-RW, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW,
>>> DVD-RW). Discs which can only be written to once (CD-R, DVD+R or
>>> DVD-R) cannot be used with InCD.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Shane
>>>
>>>
>>> "Richard Goh" <me@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>> news:cu5lvb02np8@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>>> Formatting a CD-R makes a lot of sense. You can then use it the
>>>> same way you would a floppy.
>>>> Roxio's Easy CD Creator and Ahead's InCD both provide this option.
>>>> I always recommend CD-R's and not CD-RW's base on price and, if you
>>>> know how
>>>> a CD-RW works, you would question the long-term reliability.
>>>> I can buy at least 4 CD-R's for the price of one CD-RW.
>>>>
>>>> "Ogg" <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:rkdNd.27218$Ck1.2100171@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>>>> Formatting a CD-R disc makes no sense. I would believe it's
>>>>> generally impossible anyway. Only a CD-RW disc is designed to be
>>>>> formatted. How much
>>>>> ram does your hp system have? If 256meg or less, then make
>>>>> absolutely sure
>>>>> that you are not running any other programs in the background (such
>>>>> as a virus scan, or internet) while the burn is taking place.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a for year old LG 12x8x32x (which means that it is capable of
>>>>> burning
>>>>> a CD-R at 12x). Funny thing.. it USED to be able to burn at 12x
>>>>> without a
>>>>> problem. Now.. 4 years later, the best I can achieve reliably is
>>>>> 4x. I still have the original 256meg ram only. The only
>>>>> difference in my system
>>>>> from 4 years ago until now is that I have far more programs loaded
>>>>> in memory
>>>>> (Avg, ICS are the biggest resource hogs I guess). I might risk an
>>>>> 8x burn
>>>>> from time to time and succeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW.. As you, I too primarily use Adaptec 4.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> vince wrote:
>>>>>> I'm using a CD-WriterPlus on an HP 8766 millenium system with
>>>>>> Adaptec Easy Creator 4/Adaptec CD Wizard. If I try to use the
>>>>>> latter on a CD-R, I can't format the disc; if I use the former, in
>>>>>> the layout all goes well but at 1X,2X or 4X I always get an error
>>>>>> in the output device during the burn cycle with all files skipped
>>>>>> whether a small 150 kb file or the full 650 Mb. Is this a hardware
>>>>>> problem or should I try reloading the Adaptec Software?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 5:50:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

"Mike M" wrote in message ...
> > I wonder if your client would accomplish the same result by simply
> > writing to the CD-R's in multiple data sessions instead.
>
> This would mean the client would have to look for an alternative to using
> MSBackup.

Ah... so true! Further to this, I was not aware that MSBackup supported
CDs. I tried MSBackup on an XP system, and the CD-drive selection kept
generating "Device not ready." But using Nero worked just fine. But...
maybe if I had formatted the cd-r disc then it might have worked?
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 12:03:46 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

MSBackup will only write to CDs using packet software (for example InCD or
DirectCD) but cannot span CDs meaning that the size of the backup is
restricted to what can be written to a single CD.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP
mike.maltby@gmail.com


Ogg <sorry-nopam-wanted@anywhere.com> wrote:

> Ah... so true! Further to this, I was not aware that MSBackup
> supported CDs. I tried MSBackup on an XP system, and the CD-drive
> selection kept generating "Device not ready." But using Nero worked
> just fine. But... maybe if I had formatted the cd-r disc then it
> might have worked?
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 10:54:36 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Just to add to this interesting pot of info:

For more info you might want to have a look at Mike Richter's primer on CD
writing and specifically his section on UDF
http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/primer/udf.htm.

Mike Maltby 3/20/2003

--
Jack E. Martinelli 2002-05 MS MVP for Shell/User / DTS
Help us help you: http://www.dts-L.org/goodpost.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/protect/defaul...
Your cooperation is very appreciated.
------
"Mart" <mart(NoSpam)@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:e8r8BsJDFHA.3120@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

<SNIP>
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 4:34:12 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Too right, Jack. I always have a copy of both Mike Richter's and Andy
McFadden's reference 'tomes' (bibles?) near to hand.

They make excellent bed-time reading <g>

Mart


"Jack E Martinelli" <jemartin_DELETE@NO_SPAM_gis.net> wrote in message
news:o GRCZ1dDFHA.1496@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Just to add to this interesting pot of info:
>
> For more info you might want to have a look at Mike Richter's primer on CD
> writing and specifically his section on UDF
> http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/primer/udf.htm.
>
> Mike Maltby 3/20/2003
>
> --
> Jack E. Martinelli 2002-05 MS MVP for Shell/User / DTS
> Help us help you: http://www.dts-L.org/goodpost.htm
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/protect/defaul...
> Your cooperation is very appreciated.
> ------
> "Mart" <mart(NoSpam)@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:e8r8BsJDFHA.3120@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
!