Grounding the motherboard.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
again.
I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a plastic/acrylic
case. He has already gone through two Motherboards and was told that
he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If just
certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
should be tied to the PS.

V/R
Greg Wejrowski
10 answers Last reply
More about grounding motherboard
  1. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    Wedge wrote:

    > I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
    > again.
    > I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a plastic/acrylic
    > case. He has already gone through two Motherboards

    What does "gone though two motherboards" mean? They failed for some reason?

    When you say plastic/acrylic case, do you mean the whole thing is plastic,
    or just a window? Or a metal frame inside with the outside acrylic?

    > and was told that
    > he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
    > he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If just
    > certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
    > should be tied to the PS.

    Well, there are two main reasons for the motherboard grounds: ESD (static
    discharge) protection and EMI (noise) reduction.

    For minimal ESD protection you'd want to ground the two motherboard
    mounting screws on either side of the rear I/O area (the place where
    outside ESD could enter). PCI end plates should also be grounded. All of
    those should go back to the 'chassis' ground at the PSU. (Is there any
    metal in the thing?)

    EMI is problematic since, with an acrylic case, you've pretty much
    abandoned EMI containment when it comes to TV/Radio interference, or
    anything else electronic nearby.

    The other layer of EMI containment is to prevent things inside the computer
    from interfering with itself (which reduces outside interference too, of
    course). To that end the remainder of the motherboard mounting holes are
    normally grounded to the metal back plate it's mounted on which, in turn,
    is chassis grounded. Frankly, I'd suggest you use a metal back plate since;
    who cares what the rear of the motherboard looks like? Then ground the back
    plate to the PSU. That takes care of the ESD connection mentioned above and
    provides some EMI protection. If the mounting plate is 'isolated', meaning
    no chassis metal there to mount it to, the chassis connection to the PSU
    should be from the corner nearest the rear I/O area so ESD discharge goes
    directly (not across the plate) to the PSU chassis ground (PSU is
    internally earthed).

    I.E.

    Chassis Ground
    /--------------\
    ------------------------ ---------
    | | I/O area | | PSU |
    | | | | |
    | ----------| ---------\
    | | --- plug earth
    | Motherboard |
    ------------------------

    I'd use braided copper ground strap.
    For examples: http://www.amgndsys.com/

    The floppy, CD, and hard drive(s) should also be chassis grounded.


    >
    > V/R
    > Greg Wejrowski
  2. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    "Wedge" <wedge@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
    news:4d551e52.0411290942.66639672@posting.google.com...
    > I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
    > again.
    > I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a plastic/acrylic
    > case. He has already gone through two Motherboards and was told that
    > he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
    > he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If just
    > certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
    > should be tied to the PS.
    >
    > V/R
    > Greg Wejrowski

    Greg, I wonder what they mean, as the PS ground is connected to the MB
    through the 20 pin socket.
    Maybe they want the PS case wired to the MB.
    JPS
  3. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    David Maynard <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10qn988s1tamqfa@corp.supernews.com>...
    > Wedge wrote:
    >
    > > I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
    > > again.
    > > I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a plastic/acrylic
    > > case. He has already gone through two Motherboards
    >
    > What does "gone though two motherboards" mean? They failed for some reason?
    >
    > When you say plastic/acrylic case, do you mean the whole thing is plastic,
    > or just a window? Or a metal frame inside with the outside acrylic?
    >
    > > and was told that
    > > he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
    > > he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If just
    > > certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
    > > should be tied to the PS.
    >
    > Well, there are two main reasons for the motherboard grounds: ESD (static
    > discharge) protection and EMI (noise) reduction.
    >
    > For minimal ESD protection you'd want to ground the two motherboard
    > mounting screws on either side of the rear I/O area (the place where
    > outside ESD could enter). PCI end plates should also be grounded. All of
    > those should go back to the 'chassis' ground at the PSU. (Is there any
    > metal in the thing?)
    >
    > EMI is problematic since, with an acrylic case, you've pretty much
    > abandoned EMI containment when it comes to TV/Radio interference, or
    > anything else electronic nearby.
    >
    > The other layer of EMI containment is to prevent things inside the computer
    > from interfering with itself (which reduces outside interference too, of
    > course). To that end the remainder of the motherboard mounting holes are
    > normally grounded to the metal back plate it's mounted on which, in turn,
    > is chassis grounded. Frankly, I'd suggest you use a metal back plate since;
    > who cares what the rear of the motherboard looks like? Then ground the back
    > plate to the PSU. That takes care of the ESD connection mentioned above and
    > provides some EMI protection. If the mounting plate is 'isolated', meaning
    > no chassis metal there to mount it to, the chassis connection to the PSU
    > should be from the corner nearest the rear I/O area so ESD discharge goes
    > directly (not across the plate) to the PSU chassis ground (PSU is
    > internally earthed).
    >
    > I.E.
    >
    > Chassis Ground
    > /--------------\
    > ------------------------ ---------
    > | | I/O area | | PSU |
    > | | | | |
    > | ----------| ---------\
    > | | --- plug earth
    > | Motherboard |
    > ------------------------
    >
    > I'd use braided copper ground strap.
    > For examples: http://www.amgndsys.com/
    >
    > The floppy, CD, and hard drive(s) should also be chassis grounded.
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > V/R
    > > Greg Wejrowski

    There is NO METAL at all in the case. Its all acrylic.
    When I said he went through two mother boards I ment he has either
    broke two or had two defective ones sent from the factory.. Either way
    he is on the his third motherboard.
    He didn't keep the manual that came with the case. (claims one wasn't
    in the box), but I would think that the case manufacture would include
    a note about grounding the computer parts and maybe (hey you can wish)
    they would even include some grounding straps/cables.

    Here is what we did so far and I will see him again at Christmas to
    help pretty things up. We took aluminum wire and tied all the brass
    standoffs together then ground 4 of these standoffs to the PS chassis.
    I thought about taking some measurements and then making a grounding
    harness out of braided copper and some washers, or checking prices
    from the website provided above.

    I forgot about grounding the drives and such.. I'm thinking he'd be
    better off just getting new METAL case. He just started going to LAN
    parties and wanted a plactic case to save on weight. I'm thinking the
    extra 5 or 10 pounds will do him some good.

    V/R
    Greg Wejrowski
  4. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    yes i have always been told to make sure to ensure a good ground on drives
    but figured that the steel drive cage would do nicely
    i would use thin copper between the mount holes and drives kinda hiding it
    also could do this under the MoBo using brass stand offs since you cant see
    through the mobo shouldn't interfere with the visuals
    you will have to adhere it some how and keep it tight to the acrilic/plexi
    good luck


    David Maynard <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote in
    news:10qn988s1tamqfa@corp.supernews.com:

    > Wedge wrote:
    >
    >> I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
    >> again.
    >> I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a plastic/acrylic
    >> case. He has already gone through two Motherboards
    >
    > What does "gone though two motherboards" mean? They failed for some
    > reason?
    >
    > When you say plastic/acrylic case, do you mean the whole thing is
    > plastic, or just a window? Or a metal frame inside with the outside
    > acrylic?
    >
    >> and was told that
    >> he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
    >> he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If just
    >> certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
    >> should be tied to the PS.
    >
    > Well, there are two main reasons for the motherboard grounds: ESD
    > (static discharge) protection and EMI (noise) reduction.
    >
    > For minimal ESD protection you'd want to ground the two motherboard
    > mounting screws on either side of the rear I/O area (the place where
    > outside ESD could enter). PCI end plates should also be grounded. All of
    > those should go back to the 'chassis' ground at the PSU. (Is there any
    > metal in the thing?)
    >
    > EMI is problematic since, with an acrylic case, you've pretty much
    > abandoned EMI containment when it comes to TV/Radio interference, or
    > anything else electronic nearby.
    >
    > The other layer of EMI containment is to prevent things inside the
    > computer from interfering with itself (which reduces outside
    > interference too, of course). To that end the remainder of the
    > motherboard mounting holes are normally grounded to the metal back plate
    > it's mounted on which, in turn, is chassis grounded. Frankly, I'd
    > suggest you use a metal back plate since; who cares what the rear of the
    > motherboard looks like? Then ground the back plate to the PSU. That
    > takes care of the ESD connection mentioned above and provides some EMI
    > protection. If the mounting plate is 'isolated', meaning no chassis
    > metal there to mount it to, the chassis connection to the PSU should be
    > from the corner nearest the rear I/O area so ESD discharge goes directly
    > (not across the plate) to the PSU chassis ground (PSU is internally
    > earthed).
    >
    > I.E.
    >
    > Chassis Ground
    > /--------------\
    > ------------------------ ---------
    > | | I/O area | | PSU |
    > | | | | |
    > | ----------| ---------\
    > | | --- plug earth
    > | Motherboard |
    > ------------------------
    >
    > I'd use braided copper ground strap.
    > For examples: http://www.amgndsys.com/
    >
    > The floppy, CD, and hard drive(s) should also be chassis grounded.
    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >> V/R
    >> Greg Wejrowski
    >
    >


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  6. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    The primary purpose of grounding is human safety. Chassis
    are often metal to avoid EMC problems. Metal creates a
    complication; exposed metal must then connectio to safety
    ground in circuit breaker box. How we make that connection is
    defined by other problems that can be created when connecting
    safety ground to metal chassis.

    Black wires from power supply are logic ground for
    motherboard and peripherals. Notice an adjective before each
    ground. All grounds are unique. And all grounds connect back
    to the breaker box - for human safety. How we interconnect
    those grounds can cause or avoid other problems.

    As described, there is no reason for the missing chassis
    ground to cause hardware failure. Such comments are more
    typically from one who sees something different - and assumes
    that is sufficient to blame the something different. Some
    people have little comprehension of ground. For example, many
    fail to understand the number one reason why we inteconnect
    the different grounds - human safety.

    Every ground connection required by motherboard and
    peripherals - a logic ground or DC ground - is provided by
    multiple black wires in power connectors. If these become
    disconnected or missing when computer is powered (computer is
    powered anytime the power cord connects to wall receptacle
    even when it appears off), then damage can result; especially
    to peripherals that use multiple voltages (+5 and +12 - the
    red and yellow wires). Acrylic chassis may have created
    static electicity that could damage hardware. But no chassis
    ground does not cause hardware failure.

    Wedge wrote:
    > There is NO METAL at all in the case. Its all acrylic.
    > When I said he went through two mother boards I ment he has either
    > broke two or had two defective ones sent from the factory.. Either way
    > he is on the his third motherboard.
    > He didn't keep the manual that came with the case. (claims one wasn't
    > in the box), but I would think that the case manufacture would include
    > a note about grounding the computer parts and maybe (hey you can wish)
    > they would even include some grounding straps/cables.
    >
    > Here is what we did so far and I will see him again at Christmas to
    > help pretty things up. We took aluminum wire and tied all the brass
    > standoffs together then ground 4 of these standoffs to the PS chassis.
    > I thought about taking some measurements and then making a grounding
    > harness out of braided copper and some washers, or checking prices
    > from the website provided above.
    >
    > I forgot about grounding the drives and such.. I'm thinking he'd be
    > better off just getting new METAL case. He just started going to LAN
    > parties and wanted a plactic case to save on weight. I'm thinking the
    > extra 5 or 10 pounds will do him some good.
    >
    > V/R
    > Greg Wejrowski
  7. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    On 30 Nov 2004 07:58:47 -0800, wedge@bluemarble.net (Wedge) wrote:

    > He just started going to LAN parties and wanted a plactic
    > case to save on weight.

    Yeah, I'm sure that's the real reason.

    Has he factored in the added weight of the cold cathode lights,
    fan LEDs and the water cooling rig with the UV-reactive tubing?
  8. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    Wedge wrote:
    > David Maynard <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10qn988s1tamqfa@corp.supernews.com>...
    >
    >>Wedge wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
    >>>again.
    >>>I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a plastic/acrylic
    >>>case. He has already gone through two Motherboards
    >>
    >>What does "gone though two motherboards" mean? They failed for some reason?
    >>
    >>When you say plastic/acrylic case, do you mean the whole thing is plastic,
    >>or just a window? Or a metal frame inside with the outside acrylic?
    >>
    >>
    >>>and was told that
    >>>he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
    >>>he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If just
    >>>certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
    >>>should be tied to the PS.
    >>
    >>Well, there are two main reasons for the motherboard grounds: ESD (static
    >>discharge) protection and EMI (noise) reduction.
    >>
    >>For minimal ESD protection you'd want to ground the two motherboard
    >>mounting screws on either side of the rear I/O area (the place where
    >>outside ESD could enter). PCI end plates should also be grounded. All of
    >>those should go back to the 'chassis' ground at the PSU. (Is there any
    >>metal in the thing?)
    >>
    >>EMI is problematic since, with an acrylic case, you've pretty much
    >>abandoned EMI containment when it comes to TV/Radio interference, or
    >>anything else electronic nearby.
    >>
    >>The other layer of EMI containment is to prevent things inside the computer
    >>from interfering with itself (which reduces outside interference too, of
    >>course). To that end the remainder of the motherboard mounting holes are
    >>normally grounded to the metal back plate it's mounted on which, in turn,
    >>is chassis grounded. Frankly, I'd suggest you use a metal back plate since;
    >>who cares what the rear of the motherboard looks like? Then ground the back
    >>plate to the PSU. That takes care of the ESD connection mentioned above and
    >>provides some EMI protection. If the mounting plate is 'isolated', meaning
    >>no chassis metal there to mount it to, the chassis connection to the PSU
    >>should be from the corner nearest the rear I/O area so ESD discharge goes
    >>directly (not across the plate) to the PSU chassis ground (PSU is
    >>internally earthed).
    >>
    >>I.E.
    >>
    >> Chassis Ground
    >> /--------------\
    >> ------------------------ ---------
    >> | | I/O area | | PSU |
    >> | | | | |
    >> | ----------| ---------\
    >> | | --- plug earth
    >> | Motherboard |
    >> ------------------------
    >>
    >>I'd use braided copper ground strap.
    >>For examples: http://www.amgndsys.com/
    >>
    >>The floppy, CD, and hard drive(s) should also be chassis grounded.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>V/R
    >>>Greg Wejrowski
    >
    >
    > There is NO METAL at all in the case. Its all acrylic.

    Yes. That's what I figured, but ya never know ;)

    > When I said he went through two mother boards I ment he has either
    > broke two or had two defective ones sent from the factory.. Either way
    > he is on the his third motherboard.

    I suggest there's something else wrong other than just the case as it
    should run, regardless. The 'metal' is not needed for the basic electrical
    operation and, in fact, one of the 'debug' tools when one has a problematic
    motherboard is to remove it from the case (people sometimes get the
    standoffs in the wrong place and that causes the motherboard to not
    function if it contacts one where it's not supposed to).

    Has be built a computer before?

    > He didn't keep the manual that came with the case. (claims one wasn't
    > in the box), but I would think that the case manufacture would include
    > a note about grounding the computer parts and maybe (hey you can wish)
    > they would even include some grounding straps/cables.

    One would think so but most cases come with no instructions. The builder is
    expected to already have the requisite knowledge and skills. Well, that's
    probably what they would say. A cynic must say it's because they're cheap
    and unprofessional.


    > Here is what we did so far and I will see him again at Christmas to
    > help pretty things up. We took aluminum wire and tied all the brass
    > standoffs together then ground 4 of these standoffs to the PS chassis.
    > I thought about taking some measurements and then making a grounding
    > harness out of braided copper and some washers, or checking prices
    > from the website provided above.

    Running individual wires is not the same as a metal backplate and won't
    provide the EMI reduction as, for EMI, it isn't simply a matter of
    'connecting' them; the metal plate is 'what does it'.

    If you're not going to use a metal plate then run a ground strap from the
    two I/O area standoffs, as I mentioned, to the PSU and leave the others
    unconnected.

    But we're not talking work vs non working here. The ESD protection is
    simply for that and if there is no ESD discharge to protect from then it
    doesn't matter. EMI protection is to reduce interference with other
    devices. Internal interference often takes the form of noise in the audio
    from display and/or disk activity and external is, of course, noise in TVs,
    radios, and cordless telephones.

    Radiated EMI in the reverse direction, from external sources, can cause
    erratic PC behavior but you don't usually see that in a normal home
    environment.

    > I forgot about grounding the drives and such.. I'm thinking he'd be
    > better off just getting new METAL case. He just started going to LAN
    > parties and wanted a plactic case to save on weight.

    Fascinating. I understand the weight consideration but had never thought of
    an acrylic case for that purpose and I'm not sure it helps all that much,
    especially after all the components are installed, but none of the acrylics
    I see provide a weight spec to go by so I can't really say.

    But, for example, I built a 'slim' PC for an HTPC (idea was to make it
    about the size of a 'normal' VCR) and the case was light as a feather empty
    BUT, after it was all together I had a real small box that felt like it was
    made of solid lead, rather that a large box with a small lead brick in it.
    Quite impressive, actually. Almost like a 'trick' case. "My, what a cute
    little PC. <pick it up> HOLY HANNAH! What the heck did you put IN there?
    gold bars?" hehe (not suitable for LAN parties, btw)

    I'm just not sure a small savings in case weight it all that noticeable
    even if an acrylic case would be lighter than, say, an aluminum case (I
    have my doubts).

    However, as I mentioned above, I can't imagine it's the case that's causing
    the problem with getting the motherboards to run.


    > I'm thinking the
    > extra 5 or 10 pounds will do him some good.

    You can always add lead bricks, or gold bars ;)

    >
    > V/R
    > Greg Wejrowski
  9. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    w_tom wrote:

    > The primary purpose of grounding is human safety.

    That's true for the typical earthed AC 'appliance' but it's not the only
    reason for grounding in electronics (ESD and EMI protection being two
    others) and one can easily make a PC with no earth ground. Pick up a
    notebook some time.

    > Chassis
    > are often metal to avoid EMC problems. Metal creates a
    > complication; exposed metal must then connectio to safety
    > ground in circuit breaker box.

    A typical PC case is earthed but that is certainly not a 'universal
    requirement' for everything. It is only a requirement when the 'exposed'
    metal can also come into contact with dangerous voltages and double
    insulation is one way to avoid it. Another is to simply not have any
    dangerous voltages present and you will note that your typical battery
    powered portable device has no 'ground' going back to some circuit breaker box.


    > How we make that connection is
    > defined by other problems that can be created when connecting
    > safety ground to metal chassis.

    I have no idea why you want to give the impression there is some
    'mysterious' set of "other problems." For a typical PC the PSU is
    internally earthed and automatically earths the case when it's bolted in.
    Story over.


    > Black wires from power supply are logic ground for
    > motherboard and peripherals. Notice an adjective before each
    > ground. All grounds are unique. And all grounds connect back
    > to the breaker box - for human safety.

    They do in a PC because that is the simple and inexpensive way but, again,
    it is not a 'universal requirement' of electronics. The already mentioned
    portable devices are one example but another is medical equipment, whose
    electronics are electrically isolated from the AC line.

    'Connecting' grounds is so current can flow between them and that is not
    always desirable. Transformers are one means to separate electrical
    systems. Optical isolation is another. And analog flying capacitor inputs
    are another where the thing being measured and the measuring device have no
    common electrical connection whatsoever.

    "Human safety" is only one piece of this pie. An important piece, to be
    sure, but, nevertheless, not the whole pie.

    > How we interconnect
    > those grounds can cause or avoid other problems.

    How come you never mention what these mysterious "other problems" are?

    Again, as with the PSU and case, the design issues involved are taken care
    of by the designers and an ATX motherboard is designed to be bolted into a
    metal ATX case fitted with an ATX PSU. As such, "we" (the user) do not
    (normally) decide the "how" to "interconnect those grounds."

    Greg has an unusual situation because he has a non-standard, unusual, case
    but there's no reason to needlessly confuse everyone with these
    mysteriously unspecified "other problems."

    > As described, there is no reason for the missing chassis
    > ground to cause hardware failure. Such comments are more
    > typically from one who sees something different - and assumes
    > that is sufficient to blame the something different. Some
    > people have little comprehension of ground. For example, many
    > fail to understand the number one reason why we inteconnect
    > the different grounds - human safety.
    >
    > Every ground connection required by motherboard and
    > peripherals - a logic ground or DC ground - is provided by
    > multiple black wires in power connectors. If these become
    > disconnected or missing when computer is powered (computer is
    > powered anytime the power cord connects to wall receptacle
    > even when it appears off), then damage can result; especially
    > to peripherals that use multiple voltages (+5 and +12 - the
    > red and yellow wires). Acrylic chassis may have created
    > static electicity that could damage hardware. But no chassis
    > ground does not cause hardware failure.
    >
    > Wedge wrote:
    >
    >>There is NO METAL at all in the case. Its all acrylic.
    >>When I said he went through two mother boards I ment he has either
    >>broke two or had two defective ones sent from the factory.. Either way
    >>he is on the his third motherboard.
    >>He didn't keep the manual that came with the case. (claims one wasn't
    >>in the box), but I would think that the case manufacture would include
    >>a note about grounding the computer parts and maybe (hey you can wish)
    >>they would even include some grounding straps/cables.
    >>
    >>Here is what we did so far and I will see him again at Christmas to
    >>help pretty things up. We took aluminum wire and tied all the brass
    >>standoffs together then ground 4 of these standoffs to the PS chassis.
    >> I thought about taking some measurements and then making a grounding
    >>harness out of braided copper and some washers, or checking prices
    >>from the website provided above.
    >>
    >>I forgot about grounding the drives and such.. I'm thinking he'd be
    >>better off just getting new METAL case. He just started going to LAN
    >>parties and wanted a plactic case to save on weight. I'm thinking the
    >>extra 5 or 10 pounds will do him some good.
    >>
    >>V/R
    >>Greg Wejrowski
  10. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

    wedge@bluemarble.net (Wedge) wrote:

    >I'm sure this is answered in google somewhere, but I'm going to ask
    >again.
    >I have a nephew that is building a computer and has a
    plastic/acrylic
    >case. He has already gone through two Motherboards

    Why not get an ordinary metal case.

    Good luck.


    and was told that
    >he needed to ground the PS to the Motherboard. If this is true, does
    >he need to ground "all" the stand offs or just certain ones. If
    just
    >certain ones need to be grounded, how would one know which ones
    >should be tied to the PS.
    >V/R
    >Greg Wejrowski
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