Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Can AC fans be used inside cases?

Last response: in Systems
Share
December 4, 2004 3:19:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?

More about : fans inside cases

Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 4, 2004 3:19:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Obviously 120 VAC wire outside of power supply violates
human safety principles. It can also result in hardware
damage. Furthermore you have not mentioned other important
facts such a wire size meaning potential building fire
problems. The AC fan does nothing that conventional DC fans
already accomplish. Furthermore, why do you need more air
flow. Too much airflow can even create hardware failures.
One 80 mm DC fan is more than sufficient for most every PC.
Do the numbers. Even a second fan provides insignificant
improvement. Just more reasons to question your AC fan
solution.

Phisherman wrote:
> I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
> reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
> supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
> run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 4, 2004 3:19:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman wrote:

> I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
> reason these could not be used inside a case?

Safety concerns aside, no reason whatsoever. +12v is just handier
(and safer) in computers. PSUs for idustrial mainframes have used
AC fans for decades.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 4, 2004 4:17:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote in message news:<8e02r0delnqfk23pju7a3oiqgibt0sb4mj@4ax.com>...

> I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
> reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
> supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
> run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?

High voltage is reason enough to avoid trying this, but not
understanding high voltage construction practices should completely
rule it out. The ARRL Handbook, available at any library, has
chapters about electrical safety and proper construction practices

You need wire with insulation rated for 600 volts (zip cord is fine),
and you have to keep this insulation from being pierced by sharp
objects, such as the rough edges found in almost every computer case.
Smooth these off if they pass near the wiring, taking care not to let
metal filings get into the electronic circuitry and create shorts. If
you can't smooth them, cover the wires with split looming. Rough
edges can instead be covered with plastic or rubber edging, provided
it can't possibly come off.

Connections must be secure and cover any exposed high voltage. Nylon
connectors are good for this, but cover them with heatshrink tubing
after crimpling them because the crimpling tool often pierces the
nylon.

The AC power cord for the fans has to pass through a hole in the
computer case, and that hole must have a nylon strain relief in it to
prevent the wiring from being pierced or pulled out. Do not
substitute a rubber grommet for a good strain relief. I'd prefer a
chassis-mount fuse holder inline with the fans, even if they're
inherently protected from shorts (may be labelled "impedance
protected"), but its connections must be covered with 2 layers of
heatshrink. It's possible an improperly installed fuse holder could
create more hazards than it's meant to protect.

I hope you're not thinking of getting the high voltage from inside the
power supply.

Because of the hazard and possible need of a second AC power cord, I'd
rather use low voltage DC fans, especially since no home computer
needs more than 2 case fans anyway.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 4, 2004 5:32:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote in message news:<8e02r0delnqfk23pju7a3oiqgibt0sb4mj@4ax.com>...
> I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
> reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
> supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
> run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?

In theory, you'll introduce some 60Hz electromagnetic field inside the
case. I don't think this will be strong enough to interfere with your
computer's operation as the innards of a PC are mostly low-impedance
circuits which are lees susceptible to EMI than high-impedance
circuits. Just try it out and see. It may be a good idea to keep the
wires as far away as practicable from the video and audio sections.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 4, 2004 5:34:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote in message news:<8e02r0delnqfk23pju7a3oiqgibt0sb4mj@4ax.com>...
> I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
> reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
> supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
> run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?

In theory, you'll introduce some 60Hz electromagnetic field inside the
case. I don't think this will be strong enough to interfere with your
computer's operation as the innards of a PC are mostly low-impedance
circuits which are less susceptible to EMI than high-impedance
circuits. Just try it out and see. It may be a good idea to keep the
wires as far away as practicable from the video and audio sections.
December 4, 2004 1:31:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"do_not_spam_me" <do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:101710fa.0412040117.1df16972@posting.google.com...
> Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote in message
> news:<8e02r0delnqfk23pju7a3oiqgibt0sb4mj@4ax.com>...
>
>> I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
>> reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
>> supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
>> run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?
>
> High voltage is reason enough to avoid trying this, but not
> understanding high voltage construction practices should completely
> rule it out. The ARRL Handbook, available at any library, has
> chapters about electrical safety and proper construction practices
>
> You need wire with insulation rated for 600 volts (zip cord is fine),
> and you have to keep this insulation from being pierced by sharp
> objects, such as the rough edges found in almost every computer case.
> Smooth these off if they pass near the wiring, taking care not to let
> metal filings get into the electronic circuitry and create shorts. If
> you can't smooth them, cover the wires with split looming. Rough
> edges can instead be covered with plastic or rubber edging, provided
> it can't possibly come off.
>
> Connections must be secure and cover any exposed high voltage. Nylon
> connectors are good for this, but cover them with heatshrink tubing
> after crimpling them because the crimpling tool often pierces the
> nylon.
>
> The AC power cord for the fans has to pass through a hole in the
> computer case, and that hole must have a nylon strain relief in it to
> prevent the wiring from being pierced or pulled out. Do not
> substitute a rubber grommet for a good strain relief. I'd prefer a
> chassis-mount fuse holder inline with the fans, even if they're
> inherently protected from shorts (may be labelled "impedance
> protected"), but its connections must be covered with 2 layers of
> heatshrink. It's possible an improperly installed fuse holder could
> create more hazards than it's meant to protect.
>
> I hope you're not thinking of getting the high voltage from inside the
> power supply.
>
> Because of the hazard and possible need of a second AC power cord, I'd
> rather use low voltage DC fans, especially since no home computer
> needs more than 2 case fans anyway.

So my home PC with 4 HDD's, 2 Opticals, high end graphics card, Athlon
XP3200, 1024Mb ram etc only needs 2 case fans eh?

SteveH
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 4, 2004 7:43:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

If you have any doubts, then put up the numbers yourself.
One 80 mm fan of about 25 or 30 CFM is sufficient. Two fans
operating in series maintains airflow should any one fan
fail. do_not_spam_me posted accurately - and in
contradiction to popular myth. What myth purveyors must do to
promote their myths? Fear and avoid numbers. Do the numbers
if in doubt.

Another point that do_not_spam_me could have included.
The zip cord to fan must be large enough to trip a breaker box
20 amp breaker during a short circuit - without creating
fire. Fan's power cord must be 18 AWG or heavier. So much
easier to install a DC fan - to avoid these engineering
complications.

Also not mentioned is how to control those AC fans from
power switch. Even more complex.

AC fan proposal has one positive attribute. It exposes so
many technical facts we never learned when assembling
computers with DC fans. Readers here probably learned
engineering reasons for using DC fans.

SteveH wrote:
> So my home PC with 4 HDD's, 2 Opticals, high end graphics card, Athlon
> XP3200, 1024Mb ram etc only needs 2 case fans eh?
>
> SteveH
December 5, 2004 5:11:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41B22F73.7EFBEE40@hotmail.com...
> If you have any doubts, then put up the numbers yourself.
> One 80 mm fan of about 25 or 30 CFM is sufficient. Two fans
> operating in series maintains airflow should any one fan
> fail. do_not_spam_me posted accurately - and in
> contradiction to popular myth. What myth purveyors must do to
> promote their myths? Fear and avoid numbers. Do the numbers
> if in doubt.
>
How is it you know how many fans are sufficient for my PC? You don't know
how warm the room I hve the PC in is, the CPU temperatures and the heat all
the other components in my PC generate.
What I do know is that if I slow the fans in my PC down to their minimum
settings (or indeed disconnect them) the CPU overheats and I get lockups
etc.
And yes, I do have a more than adequate, correctly fitted heatsink on my
CPU.

SteveH
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 5, 2004 5:11:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Put up some numbers. It is not rocket science.

SteveH wrote:
> How is it you know how many fans are sufficient for my PC? You
> don't know how warm the room I hve the PC in is, the CPU
> temperatures and the heat all the other components in my PC generate.
> What I do know is that if I slow the fans in my PC down to their
> minimum settings (or indeed disconnect them) the CPU overheats and I
> get lockups etc. And yes, I do have a more than adequate, correctly
> fitted heatsink on my CPU.
December 5, 2004 3:35:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41B2A5E9.A278A55A@hotmail.com...
> Put up some numbers. It is not rocket science.
>
> SteveH wrote:
>> How is it you know how many fans are sufficient for my PC? You
>> don't know how warm the room I hve the PC in is, the CPU
>> temperatures and the heat all the other components in my PC generate.
>> What I do know is that if I slow the fans in my PC down to their
>> minimum settings (or indeed disconnect them) the CPU overheats and I
>> get lockups etc. And yes, I do have a more than adequate, correctly
>> fitted heatsink on my CPU.

I don't need to do theoretical calculations to tell me how many fans I need
running. The heat sensors in my CPU and case can tell me that.
You'll be telling me I need a 3.5 digit multimeter next.

And please don't top post.

SteveH
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 5, 2004 6:50:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"SteveH" <steve.hough@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<Wlgsd.29686$up1.7386@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
> "do_not_spam_me" <do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com> wrote in message

> no home computer needs more than 2 case fans anyway.
>
> So my home PC with 4 HDD's, 2 Opticals, high end graphics card,
> Athlon XP3200, 1024Mb ram etc only needs 2 case fans eh?

Right, unless the case fans are set up wrong (blowing in the wrong
direction) or are too small (5" may be needed) or the system is
overclocked. The only additional need may be a duct to bring outside
air to CPU fan.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 5, 2004 8:35:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Odie Ferrous <odie_ferrous@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41B2C63B.952E2EF0@hotmail.com>...

> Heat is a computer's worst enemy.

I thought it was Gog the Luddite Giant on one of his computer-stomping
rampages. Fun fact: His fallen arches allow him to crush far more
computers per stomp than can other giants with similar size feet.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 5, 2004 11:28:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Your numbers then say only one chassis fan is required. But
then a simple calculation demonstrates what most every system
requires.

Don't insult others by bottom posting to make posts
difficult to read. Wading through old and now irrelevant
information is both intentionally and obviously wasteful. Or
learn what top poster do - be tolerant of the intolerant - and
ignore their misguided bottom posting.

You asked how I know what your system needs. No problem. I
kindly asked for the appropriate information. Provide the
numbers. Instead you will attack me with your intolerant
bottom posting rhetoric? Shame on you. No wonder you will
never learn from your question. It requires you to provide
numbers. Apparently that is a little too difficult? Please
learn respect, provide numbers so your original question can
be answered, and top post to make your posts readable.

SteveH wrote:
> I don't need to do theoretical calculations to tell me how many
> fans I need running. The heat sensors in my CPU and case can tell
> me that. You'll be telling me I need a 3.5 digit multimeter next.
>
> And please don't top post.
>
> SteveH
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 5, 2004 11:42:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Sometimes memory is defective. Those with engineering
backgrounds will heat memory chips to be uncomfortable to
touch. Defective memory suddenly demonstrates its defects.
But some like SteveH install more fans to 'fix' the defect.
That proves that more fans are necessary? Of course not. It
proves that people like SteveH never learned basic electronic
principles. They just know some hardware works better with
more fans.

Best way to find defective memory - memory that will fail
even more often prematurely? Heat it with a hairdryer on
high. If memory fails, is failure due to heat? Of course not
(but don't tell SteveH). Failure is due to defective and
'slowly getting worse' memory. Heat is how we find defective
ICs. More fans are how 'those who know better - damn the
engineers' fix defective hardware.

SteveH wrote:
> Indeed. I've got 4 hdd's, 2 opticals, Gig of ram, high end Nvidia
> card etc in a Xaser III case. And as I said to w_tom, I don't
> need to do sums to see the effects of heat! I admit. I could do
> without all the fans, coz I could do without the noise, but as
> I'm not interested in watercooling, this is the price you pay.
> As you say, to generalise on how much cooling people need
> (especially without knowing individual circumstances) is arrogant
> in the extreme.
>
> SteveH
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 6, 2004 12:49:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> Your numbers then say only one chassis fan is required. But then a
> simple calculation demonstrates what most every system requires.
>
> Don't insult others by bottom posting to make posts difficult to read.
> Wading through old and now irrelevant information is both intentionally
> and obviously wasteful. Or learn what top poster do - be tolerant of
> the intolerant - and ignore their misguided bottom posting.

RFC 1855
(quote)
If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context.
(/quote)



http://www.alt-html.org/index.html#usenet -- Brucie's alt.html General
Information

http://www.html-faq.com/faq.php?clue=topposting -- alt.html FAQ reference
on posting methods

http://fmf.fwn.rug.nl/~anton/topposting.html -- Why is Bottom-posting
better than Top-posting

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html -- Jukka Korpela presents
Tobias Brox's Bottom vs. top posting and quotation style on Usenet

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wijnands/nnq/nquote.html -- news.newusers.questions FAQ

http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html -- Netmeister: "How do I
quote correctly in Usenet"

http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/ -- "How not to look like an
idiot", What do you mean "my reply is upside-down"?

http://www.windfalls.net/ukrm/postinghelp.html -- "Suggestions on how to post"

http://www.topfloor.com/pr/communities/ch3.htm -- TopFloor Publishing:
Online communities - Participating effectively

http://fmf.fwn.rug.nl/~anton/topposting.html -- Anton Smit: "Why is
Bottom-posting better than Top-posting

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/g.mccaughan/g/remarks/uquote.... -- G.McCaughan:
The advantages of Usenet's quoting conventions

http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting.html -- Richard
Kettlewell: Quoting Style

http://www.estreetjournal.com/cgi-local/dir/dir.cgi/Com...
-- Netiquette links

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/part1/ -- "rules" for posting
to usenet

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/zen/zen-1.0_6.html -- zen and the art
of the internet (usenet section)

http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/ -- Dan's Mail Format Site: Quoting,
Replying, and Forwarding


<snip>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 6, 2004 7:07:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:41B3B907.8C5506C9@hotmail.com:

> Sometimes memory is defective.

I was prepared to follow your argument until you sidestepped with this.

The issue at hand is


1. Does hardware last longer with better cooling? Yes/No?

2. Do all variations of "home" computers just need two fans for adequate
cooling? Yes/No? (Take into account Owners environment eg Tropics + amount
of equipment stuffed into one box)

If you can answer yes or no to both of the above questions without going
off on a tangent I will be pleasantly surprised?

PS Why are server rooms so cold?

--
Lordy
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 6, 2004 7:09:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:41B3B5AC.D7CC81E5@hotmail.com:

> Don't insult others by bottom posting to make posts
> difficult to read.

QED.

--
Lordy
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 6, 2004 8:46:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
>

1. Heat dramatically reduces the life span of most components found
within a computer.
2. Stop detracting from 1. above.
3. You have no further constructive arguments, and are now trolling.
4. See 1. above. Read it 10 times.



Odie
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 6, 2004 8:48:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com (do_not_spam_me) :
>"SteveH" <steve.hough@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<Wlgsd.29686$up1.7386@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
>> "do_not_spam_me" <do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
>> no home computer needs more than 2 case fans anyway.
>>
>> So my home PC with 4 HDD's, 2 Opticals, high end graphics card,
>> Athlon XP3200, 1024Mb ram etc only needs 2 case fans eh?
>
>Right, unless the case fans are set up wrong (blowing in the wrong
>direction) or are too small (5" may be needed) or the system is
>overclocked. The only additional need may be a duct to bring outside
>air to CPU fan.
What if it is not a home computer? Some people use computers to do things
other than play games and post stupid messages on the internet.

To the original poster, I have used AC fans and have not had a problem.
However due to the 'unusual' configurations, I cannot say that they will
work for you.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 6, 2004 7:25:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Numbers that involve heat are required. Things like thermal
conductivity, energy consumption, fan parameters, etc. All
numbers that relate system operation and heat - as is the
topic.

SteveH wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41B3C185.BC729A95@hotmail.com...
>> Well then put up some numbers from your machine and we shall
>> see how many fans are necessary. Your keyboard does have
>> numbers on it?
>
> And as I said above, what numbers are you you talking about? I
> presume you can read?
>
> SteveH
December 6, 2004 7:58:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote:

>I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
>reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
>supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
>run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?

They will work just fine.

Below article may help

http://www.dansdata.com/hx45fan.htm

Andy
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b ) Power supply
December 7, 2004 1:55:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 16:58:42 +0100, "Andy@nospam.co.uk"
> <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote:
>
>I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
>reason these could not be used inside a case?

> >Below article may help
> >
> >http://www.dansdata.com/hx45fan.htm
> >
> >Andy
>
> Good hands-on article. Thanks Andy. I plan on using gauge #14 Romex
> wire with a fuse in the connection box.

#14 Romex is not only overkill for just fans but also may be less safe
than other wiring because of the connections. You'll get the nicest
setup with an IEC type power entry receptacle consisting of an on-off
switch, power cord receptacle, and fuse holder in a single package,
such as one of these: www.mouser.com/catalog/620/708.pdf. But you may
find it cheaper to just buy a separate receptacle, switch, and fuse
holder.
December 7, 2004 4:44:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 16:58:42 +0100, "Andy@nospam.co.uk"
<me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote:
>
>>I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
>>reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
>>supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
>>run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?
>
>They will work just fine.
>
>Below article may help
>
>http://www.dansdata.com/hx45fan.htm
>
>Andy

Good hands-on article. Thanks Andy. I plan on using gauge #14 Romex
wire with a fuse in the connection box.
December 7, 2004 2:30:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 16:58:42 +0100, "Andy@nospam.co.uk"
><me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Phisherman <nobody@noone.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I have several Panaflow AC fans, powerful and quiet. Is there any
>>>reason these could not be used inside a case? I realize the power
>>>supply could not be used, so I'd have to tap in the power supply or
>>>run a separate power line into the case. Has anyone tried this?
>>
>>They will work just fine.
>>
>>Below article may help
>>
>>http://www.dansdata.com/hx45fan.htm
>>
>>Andy
>
>Good hands-on article. Thanks Andy. I plan on using gauge #14 Romex
>wire with a fuse in the connection box.

Glad it helps, I am from UK so not really used to the AWG sizes, I would
use something in the 0.2mm stranded range suitable for lighting with a
rating of 3amps at 240v.

Agreed about the fuse, no harm in that at all.

Andy
!