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Arctic Silver 5 application?

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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 5:55:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Do the same rules apply to a P4 processor compared to say an AMD FX-55?

You read reviews and they say spread an even layer over the entire surface
of CPU, then the Arctic Silver website says put a small (pea size) glob
right in the center of the CPU and allow the pressure of the heatsink
mounted on top of the CPU to do the spreading.

So which is it?

http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions....

More about : arctic silver application

Anonymous
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a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 6:25:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Richard Dower" <richarddower@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cps867$sqm$1@kermit.esat.net...
> Do the same rules apply to a P4 processor compared to say an AMD FX-55?
>
> You read reviews and they say spread an even layer over the entire surface
> of CPU, then the Arctic Silver website says put a small (pea size) glob
> right in the center of the CPU and allow the pressure of the heatsink
> mounted on top of the CPU to do the spreading.
>

If you use the "pea size glob in the middle method", I think
it's very difficult to get the paste to spread out evenly, and
the paste will usually be pushed to one side or another.
So I spread it out into an even layer with my finger covered
with a thin Ziploc, and it works fine (CPU temp. for my
Opteron 146 is 35 degrees C).

-- Bob Day
Anonymous
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a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 6:45:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Bob Day" <xxxxxxx@yyyyyyy.com> wrote in message
news:JNhwd.5959$eO5.4547@trndny08...
> "Richard Dower" <richarddower@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cps867$sqm$1@kermit.esat.net...
>> Do the same rules apply to a P4 processor compared to say an AMD FX-55?
>>
>> You read reviews and they say spread an even layer over the entire
>> surface
>> of CPU, then the Arctic Silver website says put a small (pea size) glob
>> right in the center of the CPU and allow the pressure of the heatsink
>> mounted on top of the CPU to do the spreading.
>>
>
> If you use the "pea size glob in the middle method", I think
> it's very difficult to get the paste to spread out evenly, and
> the paste will usually be pushed to one side or another.
> So I spread it out into an even layer with my finger covered
> with a thin Ziploc, and it works fine (CPU temp. for my
> Opteron 146 is 35 degrees C).
>
> -- Bob Day
>
>

Interesting, so Arctic Silver are wrong?...has anyone tried the Arctic
Sliver method and later removed the heatsink from the CPU to see if in fact
the paste spread out in a circular fashion as pictured in the instructions
for AS5?
Anonymous
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a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 6:48:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

The assumption of using a pea-size glob is that:
o The heatsink has uniform clamping pressure
o The heatsink is uniform in dimensions & machining
o Thus the compound will spread over time to cover the entire die/IHS

I'm not sure clamping is necessarily that uniform, particularly as we
are talking about a liquid which that self-wetting in such a thin layer.
The "end-state" over time may be, but it is not uncommon to lift a
heatsink with compound used and find a dry patch underneath (that
is more likely with the large Intel IHS surface area than an AMD die).

The key thing is:
o Two metal surfaces only make absolute contact at 3-points
o Everywhere else the metal surfaces are uneven & full of voids
o Voids are filled with air - which is a very poor conductor
o Filling voids with a heatsink compound improved conduction
o Heatsink compound is a poor conductor - just better than air

So more heatsink compound is not better - it needs to be thin or
you are (slightly) increasing the overall thermal resistance.

Artic silver is good, however unless you are overclocking I would
be tempted to put the $ into the going for DDR400 vs DDR333, or a
better hard drive brand (Seagate arguably over Maxtor) for example.

To spread it around, find an old plastic bag, cut a corner off and put
your finger in it - then spread the compound around thinly - but not
so much as to leave bare metal parts of the die showing as a result.

So treat it as "less is more".
--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.dorothybradbury.co.uk for quiet Panaflo fans
Anonymous
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a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 8:59:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

> Interesting, so Arctic Silver are wrong?...has anyone tried the Arctic
> Sliver method and later removed the heatsink from the CPU to see if in fact
> the paste spread out in a circular fashion as pictured in the instructions
> for AS5?

Yes, Arctic Silver is wrong. No, I haven't used their product, but
if you put a glob of paste in the middle of the surface and just
press the heatsink onto the processor, you will never get an equal
coverage. Even if it squeezes out on the corners all around and
makes a mess, it will be thicker in the center. More probably, it
will not make it to the edges all around, resulting in only
partial contact of the heatsink with the CPU.
Anonymous
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a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 9:05:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Just wanted to say that I always enjoy your posts, Dorothy. They
are reliable and practical. You know a lot (unlike me :-).
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 16, 2004 9:23:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Richard Dower" <richarddower@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cps867$sqm$1@kermit.esat.net...
> Do the same rules apply to a P4 processor compared to say an AMD FX-55?
>
> You read reviews and they say spread an even layer over the entire surface
> of CPU, then the Arctic Silver website says put a small (pea size) glob
> right in the center of the CPU and allow the pressure of the heatsink
> mounted on top of the CPU to do the spreading.
>
> So which is it?
>
> http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions....
>

Spread it with a credit card, like spreading jelly on toast. Kazaam.
Anonymous
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December 17, 2004 12:39:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

> Just wanted to say that I always enjoy your posts, Dorothy.
> They are reliable and practical. You know a lot (unlike me :-).

I've often received a CPU with enough heatsink compound on it,
the surrounding CPU epoxy, the socket, and indeed components
to probably keep half the PC builders on the planet heavy.

I suspect they used a railway coal-wagon filling machine, sort of
placed PCs underneath it - pulling the lever and running away.

Either that or someone got fed up trying to cool Prescotts...
"How about it we fill the case with the stuff, does that help?"

Perhaps it's application according to Greenspanism, head of
the USA Fed Reserve who recently renamed the flipping of
burgers as no longer service jobs, but manufacturing. That
and someone paid by the quantity of compound deployed.


Wonder what the peak (beyond thermal design power) of the
dual cores will be... so far looks like 2x P4s stuck in the same
package, albeit clocked lower, but what local thermal mgt?
Interesting... cooling by Pratt-&-Whitney v RollsRoyce,
could make for some interesting case fan grills...
.... people no longer satisfied with stealing VW badges
are now resorting to removing large prestiage car radiators.

Hmm, thought the overclocking groups were already there!
--
Dorothy Bradbury
December 17, 2004 12:39:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I've often received a CPU with enough heatsink compound on it,
> the surrounding CPU epoxy, the socket, and indeed components
> to probably keep half the PC builders on the planet heavy.
I suspect they used a railway coal-wagon filling machine, sort of
> placed PCs underneath it - pulling the lever and running away

What? most if not all commercially built machines are with a piece of
tape(or an amount coverable by a plastic sheet ) rather than goo. You can't
possibly be inferring that this glopping was done by other than the
amateurs. I doubt the average pc builder has an assembly line with a
glopper.

Either that or someone got fed up trying to cool Prescotts...
> "How about it we fill the case with the stuff, does that help?"

Hmm we seemed to have forgotten all about he AMD furnaces of lore, where
most of this 'extra' cooling originated..

Clone of Al? Bipolar other? scitzo personality?

"Dorothy Bradbury" <dorothy.bradbury@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hgnwd.673$hX.244@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> > Just wanted to say that I always enjoy your posts, Dorothy.
> > They are reliable and practical. You know a lot (unlike me :-).
>
> >
>.
>
> >
> Perhaps it's application according to Greenspanism, head of
> the USA Fed Reserve who recently renamed the flipping of
> burgers as no longer service jobs, but manufacturing. That
> and someone paid by the quantity of compound deployed.
>
>
> Wonder what the peak (beyond thermal design power) of the
> dual cores will be... so far looks like 2x P4s stuck in the same
> package, albeit clocked lower, but what local thermal mgt?
> Interesting... cooling by Pratt-&-Whitney v RollsRoyce,
> could make for some interesting case fan grills...
> ... people no longer satisfied with stealing VW badges
> are now resorting to removing large prestiage car radiators.
>
> Hmm, thought the overclocking groups were already there!
> --
> Dorothy Bradbury
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 12:43:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Better heatsinks are not perfectly flat. A properly
designed heatsink is shaped to apply maximum pressure at the
point of heat transfer - at the center where heat transfer
occurs. I have even seen pressure charts for pressure at the
various locations of a CPU top heatsink interface - but only
from more responsible heatsink manufacturers. If using a pea
sized glob, then a properly machined heatsink would force
excess thermal compound away from the center; so that more
heatsink makes direct contact with CPU.

No thermal compound is better than too much (assuming a
properly designed heatsink). No thermal compound will not
cause CPU overheating even in a 100 degree F room. That means
the minimally acceptable heatsink will proudly admit to a
'degree C per watt' number. No number provided? Then expect
the worst and use thermal compound to fix the defective
heatsink.

Dorothy Bradbury wrote:
> The assumption of using a pea-size glob is that:
> o The heatsink has uniform clamping pressure
> o The heatsink is uniform in dimensions & machining
> o Thus the compound will spread over time to cover the entire die/IHS
>
> I'm not sure clamping is necessarily that uniform, particularly as we
> are talking about a liquid which that self-wetting in such a thin layer.
> The "end-state" over time may be, but it is not uncommon to lift a
> heatsink with compound used and find a dry patch underneath (that
> is more likely with the large Intel IHS surface area than an AMD die).
>
> The key thing is:
> o Two metal surfaces only make absolute contact at 3-points
> o Everywhere else the metal surfaces are uneven & full of voids
> o Voids are filled with air - which is a very poor conductor
> o Filling voids with a heatsink compound improved conduction
> o Heatsink compound is a poor conductor - just better than air
>
> So more heatsink compound is not better - it needs to be thin or
> you are (slightly) increasing the overall thermal resistance.
>
> Artic silver is good, however unless you are overclocking I would
> be tempted to put the $ into the going for DDR400 vs DDR333, or a
> better hard drive brand (Seagate arguably over Maxtor) for example.
>
> To spread it around, find an old plastic bag, cut a corner off and put
> your finger in it - then spread the compound around thinly - but not
> so much as to leave bare metal parts of the die showing as a result.
>
> So treat it as "less is more".
> --
> Dorothy Bradbury
> www.dorothybradbury.co.uk for quiet Panaflo fans
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 12:47:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

First, almost all heat to heatsink transfers at center of
CPU. Heat transfers from outside edge of CPU into heatsink
are irrelevant and considered zero.

Second, to be effective, most of heatsink contacts CPU
directly resulting in better thermal conductivity. Thermal
resistance increases with change of media. If too much Arctic
Silver (which is no different from the other much less
expensive thermal compounds) is applied, then little CPU
direct to heatsink contact exists. Thermal conductivity from
CPU through Arctic Silver, and then into heatsink is
decreased. This increase in thermal resistance is
undesirable. Best to minimize use of thermal compound.

Third, too much thermal compound means thermal compound
oozing out. This contamination is bad for CPU electrical
operation and a source of intermittent failures.

Four, a properly machined heatsink needs no thermal
compound. Thermal compound on properly machined heatsinks
typically reduces CPU temperature by single digit degrees - an
insignificant number. Pay special notice to those who post
the numbers rather than just hype speculative myths. The job
of thermal compound is to fill microscopic holes in the CPU to
heatsink interface. Very little thermal compound does this.

Fifth, if thermal compound is properly applied, then it
remains in the inner one half of CPU to heatsink interface -
where the heat transfer occurs.

Six, thermal compound does two things - it fill microscopic
holes to marginally increase thermal conductivity AND it may
compensate for the many computer assemblers who never bother
to first learn numbers. A defectively machined heatsink
assembly does not provide the all so important degree C per
watt number. IOW cheap heatsink is being marketed to computer
assemblers who don't learn the numbers AND then hype Arctic
Silver; also without numbers.

Thermal compound should only fill microscopic holes at
center of the CPU to heatsink interface. Little is required.
This made obvious from the more responsible heatsink
manufacturers (who also provide numbers with their app notes)
and from industry technical papers (among the many).

Never trust what Arctic Silver says without independent
confirmation. They routinely hype half truths to sell more
product at many times excessive price. They routinely avoid
numbers for profitable reasons. With numbers, then one might
learn Arctic Silver is no better and grossly overpriced. They
market is to those who just know, never bother to learn
numbers, and don't even know where the heat transfer from CPU
to heatsink occurs.

Some defective heatsink manufacturers increase profits by
using thermal tape. Just another symptom of defective
heatsinks made for computer assemblers who never demand
numbers.

Al Smith wrote:
> Yes, Arctic Silver is wrong. No, I haven't used their product, but
> if you put a glob of paste in the middle of the surface and just
> press the heatsink onto the processor, you will never get an equal
> coverage. Even if it squeezes out on the corners all around and
> makes a mess, it will be thicker in the center. More probably, it
> will not make it to the edges all around, resulting in only
> partial contact of the heatsink with the CPU.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 10:17:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

> First, almost all heat to heatsink transfers at center of
> CPU. Heat transfers from outside edge of CPU into heatsink
> are irrelevant and considered zero.

While there may be greater heat transfer at the center of the
processor, I don't see how heat transfer at the edge could ever be
considered zero. It obviously isn't zero. You have a flat block of
metal pressing against a flat block of metal. Heat conducts. The
entire surface of the CPU is going to get very hot, because the
heat in the center will conduct to the edges. If heat can be
transferred from the edges and corners to the heat sink, then the
heat at the center of the CPU will have somewhere else to go --
out to the cooler corners of the CPU. Result, improved cooling
when the entire surface of the CPU makes good contact with the
heatsink, and this contact is facilitated by thermal grease.
December 17, 2004 10:56:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

zero because its no longer absorbing heat at the edge, its
dissipating heat.

"Al Smith" <invalid@address.com> wrote in message
news:3Kvwd.196753$Np3.8109913@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> > First, almost all heat to heatsink transfers at center of
> > CPU. Heat transfers from outside edge of CPU into heatsink
> > are irrelevant and considered zero.
>
> While there may be greater heat transfer at the center of the
> processor, I don't see how heat transfer at the edge could ever be
> considered zero. It obviously isn't zero. You have a flat block of
> metal pressing against a flat block of metal. Heat conducts. The
> entire surface of the CPU is going to get very hot, because the
> heat in the center will conduct to the edges. If heat can be
> transferred from the edges and corners to the heat sink, then the
> heat at the center of the CPU will have somewhere else to go --
> out to the cooler corners of the CPU. Result, improved cooling
> when the entire surface of the CPU makes good contact with the
> heatsink, and this contact is facilitated by thermal grease.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 5:46:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

In article Al Smith says...
> > Interesting, so Arctic Silver are wrong?...has anyone tried the Arctic
> > Sliver method and later removed the heatsink from the CPU to see if in fact
> > the paste spread out in a circular fashion as pictured in the instructions
> > for AS5?
>
> Yes, Arctic Silver is wrong.

Artic Silver say to spread a thin layer about paper thickness over the
CPU core...


--
Conor

A man alone in the forest is talking to himself and no women around to
hear him. Is he still wrong?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 9:59:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

> What? most if not all commercially built machines are with a piece of
> tape(or an amount coverable by a plastic sheet ) rather than goo. You can't
> possibly be inferring that this glopping was done by other than the
> amateurs. I doubt the average pc builder has an assembly line with a
> glopper.

Take off an IHS on an intel chip, there's a glopper in the process :-)
Not that it matters in that instance, just amusing to notice.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2004 9:59:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

> First, almost all heat to heatsink transfers at center of
> CPU. Heat transfers from outside edge of CPU into heatsink
> are irrelevant and considered zero.

Not necessarily.
o Bring up a Flotherm model of alternative heat-spreader designs
o Quite a few papers on Flotherm's site and various others

However, that said, chip designers try very hard to ensure that
there are no localised hot-spots - with various solutions.

Some solutions not AFAIK adopted:
o Heat Spreaders with multiple inner machined surfaces
---- instead of a IHS contacting a die at 1 point it contacts at 4 or 9
---- it was found you got a thinner compound goop in the latter
---- so thermal hotspots were reduced, just tweaking designs
o Leaving bare silicon on hot corners/edges of a die
---- thereby reducing the thermal density appreciably
---- not a brilliant idea re acreage lost per wafer being lost profit

I wonder if the dual-core CPUs will use those modified IHS.

Some telco chips do have localised hot-spot problems (corners/edges).
--
Dorothy Bradbury
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 23, 2004 6:36:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:45:08 -0000, "Richard Dower"
<richarddower@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Bob Day" <xxxxxxx@yyyyyyy.com> wrote in message
>news:JNhwd.5959$eO5.4547@trndny08...
>> "Richard Dower" <richarddower@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:cps867$sqm$1@kermit.esat.net...
>>> Do the same rules apply to a P4 processor compared to say an AMD FX-55?
>>>
>>> You read reviews and they say spread an even layer over the entire
>>> surface
>>> of CPU, then the Arctic Silver website says put a small (pea size) glob
>>> right in the center of the CPU and allow the pressure of the heatsink
>>> mounted on top of the CPU to do the spreading.
>>>
>>
>> If you use the "pea size glob in the middle method", I think
>> it's very difficult to get the paste to spread out evenly, and
>> the paste will usually be pushed to one side or another.
>> So I spread it out into an even layer with my finger covered
>> with a thin Ziploc, and it works fine (CPU temp. for my
>> Opteron 146 is 35 degrees C).
>>
>> -- Bob Day
>>
>>
>
>Interesting, so Arctic Silver are wrong?...has anyone tried the Arctic
>Sliver method and later removed the heatsink from the CPU to see if in fact
>the paste spread out in a circular fashion as pictured in the instructions
>for AS5?

I have.

I upgraded to an Intel 3.0 Ghz CPU earlier this year and decided to
remove the thermal compound pad that came with the stock heat sink and
apply Arctic Silver instead. I applied it as per instructions,
though mine said to apply an amount equal to a grain of rice, not a
pea. I literally took a single grain of rice in order to visually
assess how much to apply. It seemed insufficient to me, but I tried
it anyway.

Some months later, I decided to junk the stock fan, which sounded too
much like a jet airliner taking off in favor of a Zalman Ultra Quiet
CNPS7000-AlCu heat sink. When I removed the stock heat sink from my
CPU, I saw a nearly perfect circular spread of the Arctic Silver
compound. The thickness was evenly spread as well.

I think the key is not to over-apply.

Bob
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
December 29, 2004 12:08:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I would suggest vegimite or toothpaste.

i don't have the link. Actually stuff the arctic stuff and by the generic
white paste. spread as thinly as possible. Use the edge of a credit card.
!