Why would anyone buy a Baron?

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

....As Peter brought to our attention with the Eclipse 500
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/500jet/overview.htm

The jet twin Eclipse 500 costs $1,175,000

A new Baron 58 costs $1,154,210

(When you're talking a million, a $20 grand difference is not going break
the bank.)


The Baron: six seats, non pressurized, useful load 1,514 lbs, range 1,027
nm, 198 kt cruise speed, analogue instruments.

Eclipse 500: six seats, pressurized, useful load 2,250 lb, operates at
41,000 ft, range 1,280 nm, 375 kt cruise speed, Avio Avionics glass cockpit.

Panel:
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ima [...] el_med.jpg


I don't see any contest here it does everything much better. So why would
anyone go to the factory and buy a new Baron?

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:%%AQd.1470$kU3.1469@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> ...As Peter brought to our attention with the Eclipse 500
> http://www.eclipseaviation.com/500jet/overview.htm
>
> The jet twin Eclipse 500 costs $1,175,000
>
> A new Baron 58 costs $1,154,210
>
> (When you're talking a million, a $20 grand difference is not going break
> the bank.)
>
>
> The Baron: six seats, non pressurized, useful load 1,514 lbs, range 1,027
> nm, 198 kt cruise speed, analogue instruments.
>
> Eclipse 500: six seats, pressurized, useful load 2,250 lb, operates at
> 41,000 ft, range 1,280 nm, 375 kt cruise speed, Avio Avionics glass
cockpit.
>
> Panel:
> http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ima [...] el_med.jpg
>
>
> I don't see any contest here it does everything much better. So why would
> anyone go to the factory and buy a new Baron?
>
> Dallas

Good point. I know a guy who owns an Eclipse (and a Falcon 900) - I'll see
if I can track him down and ask him the same question! What are the
relative maintenance cost dynamics like? (They will be "dynamic" for
sure!!)

Cheers,
Dave (Sydney)

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dave E <i.am@my.wits.end.with.spam> wrote:

> Good point. I know a guy who owns an Eclipse

I cannot imagine that he is flying it yet. The aircraft is still in the
certification stages and the first one is still a year to a year and a half
from being delivered to its first customer.

--
Peter













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Dallas <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:

> The jet twin Eclipse 500 costs $1,175,000
>
> A new Baron 58 costs $1,154,210

The person about whom I was posting currently owns a beautiful 1999 Baron
and that is exactly his thinking.

Of course, it helps that he is the heir of the family who ran a very
successful, large electronics repair empire.

--
Peter













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"Carl Frisk"
> Operating costs?

The Baron holds 194 US gals and has a range of 1,027 nm.

The Eclipse 500 holds 230 US gals and has a range of 1,280 nm.

If want to figure "mileage":

Baron: 5.3 nm/gal
Eclipse: 5.6 nm/gal

Eclipse wins.

(I don't know how much an engine overhaul costs..)

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in
news:%%AQd.1470$kU3.1469@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> ...As Peter brought to our attention with the Eclipse 500
> http://www.eclipseaviation.com/500jet/overview.htm
>
> The jet twin Eclipse 500 costs $1,175,000
>
> A new Baron 58 costs $1,154,210
>
> (When you're talking a million, a $20 grand difference is not going
> break the bank.)
>
>
> The Baron: six seats, non pressurized, useful load 1,514 lbs, range
> 1,027 nm, 198 kt cruise speed, analogue instruments.
>
> Eclipse 500: six seats, pressurized, useful load 2,250 lb, operates at
> 41,000 ft, range 1,280 nm, 375 kt cruise speed, Avio Avionics glass
> cockpit.
>
> Panel:
> http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ima [...] anel_med.j
> pg
>
>
> I don't see any contest here it does everything much better. So why
> would anyone go to the factory and buy a new Baron?
>
> Dallas
>
>

Ratings.
I can get a twin engine ticket (after my IFR, of course) at a reasonable
cost. Then I have to build time so the insurance companies will start
answering my calls. Without a respectable amount of turbine time, I just
can't get insurance, even with a Ford Excursion full of cash.

--
e v e n S k y

Athlon 266Ghz
1 G Ram
GeForce FX5900XT
160G H-D
80G H-D
W2K, FS9
Wingman Strike force 3D

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"pr" <nope@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1bchccxshzyyg$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Dave E <i.am@my.wits.end.with.spam> wrote:
>
> > Good point. I know a guy who owns an Eclipse
>
> I cannot imagine that he is flying it yet. The aircraft is still in the
> certification stages and the first one is still a year to a year and a
half
> from being delivered to its first customer.

Yes, you are right - Peter has committed to a purchase and intends to use it
for those trips when the Falcon isn't viable. I wasn't aware that it was so
far off. It's been some months since we spoke. He has a fairly tough life
from what I can glean. As for me, I'm still chuffed that I can solo
circuits in the (rented) 152.

:-)

Cheers,
Dave (Sydney)

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Why? "Getting insurance on a jet".

For those of us totally out of the loop, what would the cost difference be
on this between a fully qualified/certified pilot and owner of a Baron vs.
the Eclipse? Inquiring minds want to know

Doug

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Hagar" \
> Source is a Honeywell Aerospace study.

Is that study available on-line? I'm not challenging your creditability...
I'd like to have a reference like that.


Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Hagar"
> I noticed several like studies out there for
> all kinds of planes so they seem to be plentiful.

That's nice to know because I'm finding the last place you want to get your
comparison information is from the manufacturer's marketing departments.

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dave E <i.am@my.wits.end.with.spam> wrote:

> He has a fairly tough life from what I can glean.

LOL! I'd say. Stay in contact with him so that you can ride along in the
co-pilot seat of the Eclipse when he receives it. That's what I am trying
to do with the gentleman I met last fall.

> As for me, I'm still chuffed that I can solo circuits in the
> (rented) 152.

Congratulations! That is an accomplishment.


--
Peter













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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

A toilet? A toilet? WOW......that's the plane for me! Who cares about
fuel economy and overhaul costs if you have a toilet! Would probably be the
only one the wife would let me buy anyway.

Arthur

"DESTROYER" <DESTROYER@forums.simradar.com> wrote in message
news:1108583756.25785@forums.simradar.com...
> barons are nice but too expensive,i would love to fly the eclipse 500
> it's a jet at a lower cost,faster longer range and has a toilet.all
> glass
> cockpit way nice avionics,
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
> Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" wrote :
: The jet twin Eclipse 500 costs $1,175,000
:
: A new Baron 58 costs $1,154,210
:
: (When you're talking a million, a $20 grand difference is not going break
: the bank.)
:
A fellow for whom I fix planes has a Baron and a King Air at my field.
Just the other day he and his wife zigged in for a quick flight to a half
dozen different fields in one afternoon (didn't ask why). Said he was
taking the Baron because it takes less time to preflight.

His jets are at the regional field down the road. I'll have to ask him about
the cost differential.

Dave

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:42:17 GMT, David Ward wrote:

> Just the other day he and his wife zigged in for a quick flight to a half
> dozen different fields in one afternoon (didn't ask why).

Distributing drugs?

Bill

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:39:07 GMT, "Dallas"
<Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:

>...As Peter brought to our attention with the Eclipse 500
>http://www.eclipseaviation.com/500jet/overview.htm
>
>The jet twin Eclipse 500 costs $1,175,000
>
>A new Baron 58 costs $1,154,210

That is a very well equipped Baron.
>
>(When you're talking a million, a $20 grand difference is not going break
>the bank.)

You are also talking about pilot qualifications and insurability.
I was talking about a TBM 700 and was quoted $25,000 a year, which is
actually cheaper per hull value than I pay now. Of course with no
turbine time they wanted *200* hours dual. Now that could have been
with a qualified copilot/instructor.

You can move into a light twin like the Baron far, far easier than
into a light jet. Also the industry hasn't figured out just quite what
to do with the light jets, but they are talking a minimum of 1500
hours.

>
>
>The Baron: six seats, non pressurized, useful load 1,514 lbs, range 1,027
>nm, 198 kt cruise speed, analogue instruments.

And you can start flying one as soon as you get the rating.
OTOH insurance will still be hard to get with under 600 to 700 hours
and probably 200 twin time.

With a high performance single, Call it a Bo, or cheap Bo, they still
specify 600 total time minimum, 25 in make and model, and there was
one other limitation in there for un-named pilots.

>
>Eclipse 500: six seats, pressurized, useful load 2,250 lb, operates at
>41,000 ft, range 1,280 nm, 375 kt cruise speed, Avio Avionics glass cockpit.
>
>Panel:
>http://www.eclipseaviation.com/images/jet_photos/Instrument_Panel_med.jpg
>
>
>I don't see any contest here it does everything much better. So why would
>anyone go to the factory and buy a new Baron?

See above.
Plus I'd bet insurance is going to be plain hard to get except for
professional pilots. By that I don't mean you need the commercial or
ATP, you need to be flying on some one's pay roll. That is showing up
even in the high performance singles and twins.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


>
>Dallas
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Roger"
> Also the industry hasn't figured out just quite what
> to do with the light jets, but they are talking a minimum of 1500
> hours.

Wow, that would make it just about impossible for Joe Schmo to own one of
these jets.

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:30:54 GMT, David Ward wrote:

> "Bill Leaming" <n4gix@comcast.net> wrote in message news:17b5thqf9wf6f.1gsgi7mhxtd97.dlg@40tude.net...
>: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:42:17 GMT, David Ward wrote:

>: Distributing drugs?
> Ya know, I may just have to ask. The fellers loaded - and I've no idea
> from where the cash flows.

Be careful, especially if his last name ends with a vowel...

Bill

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:42:10 GMT, James Hodson wrote:
>>>: Distributing drugs?
>>> Ya know, I may just have to ask. The fellers loaded - and I've no idea
>>> from where the cash flows.
>>
>>Be careful, especially if his last name ends with a vowel...
> That bloke John Doe is not to be trusted. No sir! As far as I
> understand the situation, he's wanted for all sorts of heinous crimes.

Ha! Boy, your mention of "Doe" certainly spoiled that simile... I was
intending for folks to inference the nefarious members another gang
entirely...

Bill

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:32:00 +1000, "John Ward"
<johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>Hi James Hodson,
>
> LOL!
>
> Ya can't get away with anything on this n/g! :-)

Hiyya John

I apologise for stealing your thunder :-)

James

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Roger"
> BUT is better than a $3500 micro switch.

I'm pretty sure I read that 1 Beech King Air tire costs $3,000... does that
sound right?

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:

> "Roger"
>> BUT is better than a $3500 micro switch.
>
> I'm pretty sure I read that 1 Beech King Air tire costs $3,000... does that
> sound right?

Maybe in yen they do, but in USD, more like $108 to $225. (depending on
manufacturer):

http://www.airsuppliers.com/Beech_ [...] _tires.htm

--
Peter













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Bill Leaming wrote:
> of like your local garage telling you that they have to replace the
> starter because your battery cable is chafed though...
>

Except the local garage would also replace the alternator, battery, add some
$5 anti-corrosive felt thingies to the battery terminals, and recommend you
replace your shocks because a tire is wearing uneven, etc.....

Reminds me of the old TV repair scums that would sell you 8 tubes (valves
for your 12 tube set, because the filiment burnt out in 1...

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Bill Leaming"
> Oh no, they replaced the entire actuator assembly because now they said
> the "wire was broken."

So I guess they never heard of a soldering iron and heat-shrink tubing?


Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

And with certain types of wiring used on various sensors, splicing the wire
can result in improper gauge readings due to the change in
resistance/capacitance/impedance.


"Marshall Banana" <dan@angband.org> wrote in message
news:38p4duF5qjfjpU1@individual.net...
> Also Sprach Dallas <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.hotmail.com>:
> > "Bill Leaming"
> >> Oh no, they replaced the entire actuator assembly because now they said
> >> the "wire was broken."
>
> > So I guess they never heard of a soldering iron and heat-shrink tubing?
>
> You should never create in-line soldered connections in aircraft wiring
> harnesses. They tend to crack due to vibration. A properly supported
> crimp would have been fine, though.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Love is like a bottle of gin, but a bottle of gin is NOT like love.
>
> -- The Magnetic Fields

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Lakeview Bill"
> > You should never create in-line soldered connections in aircraft wiring
> > harnesses. They tend to crack due to vibration. A properly supported
> > crimp would have been fine, though.

Ok... twist it into a pigtail, solder it.. then twist a wire nut over it.
:-)

I would have done the job for $25 bucks - and $300 travel expenses. :-)

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

boB wrote:


>
> Dalli, I thought I was a yungun here but I remember my mom giving me a
> burned out tube to take to the repair shop, getting a new one, bringing
> it home and plugging it in. I don't know, maybe it was that West
> Virginia was behind the times.
>

How in the hell did I remember that....... I wish my short term memory
was that good.



--

boB

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)