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Probability: CPU causing high temp readings?

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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 22, 2005 9:00:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
for 2 years.

I suspect the mobo sensors have had it. Machine is perfectly stable
otherwise.

I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.

Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
the problem?
June 22, 2005 9:42:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

cpu fan loaded with dust?

johns
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 23, 2005 1:28:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:

> I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
> temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
> 7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
> for 2 years.

Ay idle or under load?

>
> I suspect the mobo sensors have had it.

Sensors dying is probably the least likely possibility, unless you've been
in there with a ham handed screw driver and damaged them.

> Machine is perfectly stable
> otherwise.
>
> I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
> that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>
> Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
> the problem?

None of those are likely. Assuming temps really have risen under the same
operating conditions it's more likely either a dirty heatsink, heatsink fan
failing (running slow), thermal compound migration/dry, heatsink
mechanically shifted (either the fan or on the processor), or a case
cooling problem caused by dirty fans, fan failure (or running slow), or
airflow blockage.

Other causes could be a software/configuration problem preventing the
normal idle power saving or something (e.g. a virus/worm) causing 100% CPU
activity.

>
>
Related resources
June 23, 2005 1:54:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:00:27 -0400, DaveH
<ddhartwick@IGIVEUPearthlink.net> had a flock of green cheek conures
squawk out:

>I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>for 2 years.
>
>I suspect the mobo sensors have had it. Machine is perfectly stable
>otherwise.
>
>I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>
>Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>the problem?
>

It could be that the cpu heatsink is clogged with dust.

Or, spyware/trojan/virus or other background task having fun on your
pc.

Stephen


--
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 23, 2005 1:54:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:54:18 GMT, Stephen
<stephen2002{NOSPAM}@lurker.homeip.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:00:27 -0400, DaveH
><ddhartwick@IGIVEUPearthlink.net> had a flock of green cheek conures
>squawk out:
>
>>I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>>temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>>7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>>for 2 years.
>>
>>I suspect the mobo sensors have had it. Machine is perfectly stable
>>otherwise.
>>
>>I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>>that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>>
>>Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>>the problem?
>>
>
>It could be that the cpu heatsink is clogged with dust.
>
>Or, spyware/trojan/virus or other background task having fun on your
>pc.
>
>Stephen
Can spyware/trojan/virus infect BIOS firmware? The wacky readings show
up in PC Health in BIOS setup.

Heatsink is clean, barely warm under full load.
Dave
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 23, 2005 1:23:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:32 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
wrote:

>DaveH wrote:
>
>> I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>> temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>> 7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>> for 2 years.
>
>Ay idle or under load?
*********
I think it would climb to 45-48 C under at 100% CPU usage, running
Sisoft Sandra and Prime 95 simultaneously, for example. Now it bounces
between 65-80 C at idle and bounces around 95-100+ C at 100% cpu
usage. I've got to think that if those temps were remotely accurate,
my cpu would have given up by now.
*********
>>
>> I suspect the mobo sensors have had it.
>
>Sensors dying is probably the least likely possibility, unless you've been
>in there with a ham handed screw driver and damaged them.
The 4PDA2+ is supposedly notorious for producing unstable temp
readings. They've bounced all over the place since Day 1. This is why
I suspect the sensors or sensing complex has simply competely
deteriorated.
>> Machine is perfectly stable
>> otherwise.
>>
>> I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>> that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>>
>> Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>> the problem?
>
>None of those are likely. Assuming temps really have risen under the same
>operating conditions it's more likely either a dirty heatsink, heatsink fan
>failing (running slow), thermal compound migration/dry, heatsink
>mechanically shifted (either the fan or on the processor), or a case
>cooling problem caused by dirty fans, fan failure (or running slow), or
>airflow blockage.
Everything's clean. I checked that first thing. I've also suspected
mechanical shifting or otherwise mechanical compromise of the HSF/cpu
arrangement. But this machine is absolutely stationary and screws
firmly torques. It's hard to envision the HSF simply drifting out of
place.

Is Arctic Silver prone to migration?
>Other causes could be a software/configuration problem preventing the
>normal idle power saving or something (e.g. a virus/worm) causing 100% CPU
>activity.
The problem shows up in BIOS which makes me suspect it's not a Win2000
infection problem. Task Manager shows normal 1-2% usage at idle in
Windows.
BIOS, which I just flashed to latest (no change), could be infected, I
assume.

I guess I have no choice but to pull the HSF and examine the interface
then re-install as per your advice. I've hesitated doing so because
the the Zalman 7000Cu was a nightmare to install. It tends to slide
around on the compound (used specified amount). I know others have
reported ease of installation with that cooler.

Yesterday I had a cpu temp alarm at boot even though that function is
disabled in BIOS. I re-booted successfully without alarm and USDM
showed cpu temps bouncing between 0 and 90 deg C. Such flakiness looks
electronic to me in nature, but I'm pulling the HSF to rule that out.

Dave
>
>>
>>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 23, 2005 4:05:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"DaveH" <ddhartwick@IGIVEUPearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:27pjb11jki07jccv94noou91ku1sk4such@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:54:18 GMT, Stephen
> <stephen2002{NOSPAM}@lurker.homeip.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:00:27 -0400, DaveH
>><ddhartwick@IGIVEUPearthlink.net> had a flock of green cheek conures
>>squawk out:
>>
>>>I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>>>temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>>>7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>>>for 2 years.
>>>
>>>I suspect the mobo sensors have had it. Machine is perfectly stable
>>>otherwise.
>>>
>>>I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>>>that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>>>
>>>Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>>>the problem?
>>>
>>
>>It could be that the cpu heatsink is clogged with dust.
>>
>>Or, spyware/trojan/virus or other background task having fun on your
>>pc.
>>
>>Stephen
> Can spyware/trojan/virus infect BIOS firmware? The wacky readings show
> up in PC Health in BIOS setup.
>
> Heatsink is clean, barely warm under full load.
> Dave

The heatsink should be at least warm to the touch or it isn't doing it's job
of taking the heat from the processor. I would suggest removing it, cleaning
it well of dust and HS compound (same with processor). Reapply compound and
see if it helps. While you are in there use some canned air and clean up
intake and exhaust fans and also make sure that you tie up cables and insure
you have good airflow in the case itself.

Ed
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 23, 2005 8:42:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:32 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>DaveH wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>>>temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>>>7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>>>for 2 years.
>>
>>Ay idle or under load?
>
> *********
> I think it would climb to 45-48 C under at 100% CPU usage, running
> Sisoft Sandra and Prime 95 simultaneously, for example. Now it bounces
> between 65-80 C at idle and bounces around 95-100+ C at 100% cpu
> usage. I've got to think that if those temps were remotely accurate,
> my cpu would have given up by now.
> *********

>
>>>I suspect the mobo sensors have had it.
>>
>>Sensors dying is probably the least likely possibility, unless you've been
>>in there with a ham handed screw driver and damaged them.
>
> The 4PDA2+ is supposedly notorious for producing unstable temp
> readings. They've bounced all over the place since Day 1. This is why
> I suspect the sensors or sensing complex has simply competely
> deteriorated.

Well, this is the first time you've mentioned that they "bounced all over
the place since Day 1" and if they've never been reliable then nothing
they've told you is reliable, "stable at ~40 C for 2 years" or now.

I don't know what you mean by 'bounce', though. Heatsinks take time to warm
up, or cool down, but an internal diode will sense the CPU temp
immediately, because it's 'there', so if you're monitoring an on-die
thermal diode it can change by as much as 10C, or so, almost instantly from
a load change.


>>>Machine is perfectly stable
>>>otherwise.
>>>
>>>I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>>>that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>>>
>>>Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>>>the problem?
>>
>>None of those are likely. Assuming temps really have risen under the same
>>operating conditions it's more likely either a dirty heatsink, heatsink fan
>>failing (running slow), thermal compound migration/dry, heatsink
>>mechanically shifted (either the fan or on the processor), or a case
>>cooling problem caused by dirty fans, fan failure (or running slow), or
>>airflow blockage.
>
> Everything's clean. I checked that first thing. I've also suspected
> mechanical shifting or otherwise mechanical compromise of the HSF/cpu
> arrangement. But this machine is absolutely stationary and screws
> firmly torques. It's hard to envision the HSF simply drifting out of
> place.

You're neglecting, even if nothing else, expansion/contraction with
temperature.

>
> Is Arctic Silver prone to migration?

Not excessively but with your comment below about the heatsink sliding
around it sounds like you put too much on.

However, most, if not all, 'fluid' type thermal compounds are potentially
suspect over a period of years.


>>Other causes could be a software/configuration problem preventing the
>>normal idle power saving or something (e.g. a virus/worm) causing 100% CPU
>>activity.
>
> The problem shows up in BIOS which makes me suspect it's not a Win2000
> infection problem. Task Manager shows normal 1-2% usage at idle in
> Windows.
> BIOS, which I just flashed to latest (no change), could be infected, I
> assume.
>
> I guess I have no choice but to pull the HSF and examine the interface
> then re-install as per your advice. I've hesitated doing so because
> the the Zalman 7000Cu was a nightmare to install. It tends to slide
> around on the compound (used specified amount). I know others have
> reported ease of installation with that cooler.

You'd have to pull it anyway to replace the motherboard so you might as
well check it before dumping a wad on money on one.


> Yesterday I had a cpu temp alarm at boot even though that function is
> disabled in BIOS. I re-booted successfully without alarm and USDM
> showed cpu temps bouncing between 0 and 90 deg C. Such flakiness looks
> electronic to me in nature, but I'm pulling the HSF to rule that out.

You really have two problems. Or one known problem and one potential
problem. The known problem is the temperature readout. The other is whether
it's really hot or not.

>
> Dave
>
>>>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 1:54:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:42:40 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
wrote:

>DaveH wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:32 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>DaveH wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>>>>temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>>>>7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>>>>for 2 years.
>>>
>>>Ay idle or under load?
>>
>> *********
>> I think it would climb to 45-48 C under at 100% CPU usage, running
>> Sisoft Sandra and Prime 95 simultaneously, for example. Now it bounces
>> between 65-80 C at idle and bounces around 95-100+ C at 100% cpu
>> usage. I've got to think that if those temps were remotely accurate,
>> my cpu would have given up by now.
>> *********
>
>>
>>>>I suspect the mobo sensors have had it.
>>>
>>>Sensors dying is probably the least likely possibility, unless you've been
>>>in there with a ham handed screw driver and damaged them.
>>
>> The 4PDA2+ is supposedly notorious for producing unstable temp
>> readings. They've bounced all over the place since Day 1. This is why
>> I suspect the sensors or sensing complex has simply competely
>> deteriorated.
>
>Well, this is the first time you've mentioned that they "bounced all over
>the place since Day 1" and if they've never been reliable then nothing
>they've told you is reliable, "stable at ~40 C for 2 years" or now.
>
>I don't know what you mean by 'bounce', though. Heatsinks take time to warm
>up, or cool down, but an internal diode will sense the CPU temp
>immediately, because it's 'there', so if you're monitoring an on-die
>thermal diode it can change by as much as 10C, or so, almost instantly from
>a load change.
>
>
>>>>Machine is perfectly stable
>>>>otherwise.
>>>>
>>>>I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>>>>that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>>>>
>>>>Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>>>>the problem?
>>>
>>>None of those are likely. Assuming temps really have risen under the same
>>>operating conditions it's more likely either a dirty heatsink, heatsink fan
>>>failing (running slow), thermal compound migration/dry, heatsink
>>>mechanically shifted (either the fan or on the processor), or a case
>>>cooling problem caused by dirty fans, fan failure (or running slow), or
>>>airflow blockage.
>>
>> Everything's clean. I checked that first thing. I've also suspected
>> mechanical shifting or otherwise mechanical compromise of the HSF/cpu
>> arrangement. But this machine is absolutely stationary and screws
>> firmly torques. It's hard to envision the HSF simply drifting out of
>> place.
>
>You're neglecting, even if nothing else, expansion/contraction with
>temperature.
>
>>
>> Is Arctic Silver prone to migration?
>
>Not excessively but with your comment below about the heatsink sliding
>around it sounds like you put too much on.
>
>However, most, if not all, 'fluid' type thermal compounds are potentially
>suspect over a period of years.
>
>
>>>Other causes could be a software/configuration problem preventing the
>>>normal idle power saving or something (e.g. a virus/worm) causing 100% CPU
>>>activity.
>>
>> The problem shows up in BIOS which makes me suspect it's not a Win2000
>> infection problem. Task Manager shows normal 1-2% usage at idle in
>> Windows.
>> BIOS, which I just flashed to latest (no change), could be infected, I
>> assume.
>>
>> I guess I have no choice but to pull the HSF and examine the interface
>> then re-install as per your advice. I've hesitated doing so because
>> the the Zalman 7000Cu was a nightmare to install. It tends to slide
>> around on the compound (used specified amount). I know others have
>> reported ease of installation with that cooler.
>
>You'd have to pull it anyway to replace the motherboard so you might as
>well check it before dumping a wad on money on one.
>
>
>> Yesterday I had a cpu temp alarm at boot even though that function is
>> disabled in BIOS. I re-booted successfully without alarm and USDM
>> showed cpu temps bouncing between 0 and 90 deg C. Such flakiness looks
>> electronic to me in nature, but I'm pulling the HSF to rule that out.
>
>You really have two problems. Or one known problem and one potential
>problem. The known problem is the temperature readout. The other is whether
>it's really hot or not.

By bouncing I mean something like 35- 40- 45 - 41- 36- 39 at roughly 1
second intervals, for an average of ~40 C. That's what I've had since
the beginning, then the recent increase which occurred over an unknown
interval. You're right of course, it's never been reliable, but a
distinct change in trend has occurred.

I've got USDM set to 1 sec re-flash intervals. With Task Manager
indicating 0-2% cpu usage, the temp is "bouncing between ~55 and ~110
C. That cannot reflect actual thermal conditions, so I must conclude
that a temp sensing clearly exists. That being the case, does it
follow that I have an actual high temp condition? If I do then it is
not related and thus coicidental. Insufficient data, but you may see
why I suspect a sensing problem only and not an actual high temp
condition in light of otherwise perfectly stable operation. OTOH I
could be utterly wrong. I assemble our machines but my knowledge is
incomplete.

Thermal contraction and expansion is something that never occurred to
me. The 7000 has always run barely warm or tepid to the touch, which I
always assumed to indicate superior heat transfer capacity; but in
retrospect it could have indicated insufficient heat transfer at the
interface from the beginning, as you suggest. I have to pull the
heatsink, no choice.

I guess it's logical to assume that the CPU is ok.

Thanks for a very thoughtful reply.
Dave
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 2:03:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:

<snip>

>
>
> By bouncing I mean something like 35- 40- 45 - 41- 36- 39 at roughly 1
> second intervals, for an average of ~40 C. That's what I've had since
> the beginning, then the recent increase which occurred over an unknown
> interval. You're right of course, it's never been reliable, but a
> distinct change in trend has occurred.
>
> I've got USDM set to 1 sec re-flash intervals. With Task Manager
> indicating 0-2% cpu usage, the temp is "bouncing between ~55 and ~110
> C. That cannot reflect actual thermal conditions, so I must conclude
> that a temp sensing clearly exists. That being the case, does it
> follow that I have an actual high temp condition? If I do then it is
> not related and thus coicidental. Insufficient data, but you may see
> why I suspect a sensing problem only and not an actual high temp
> condition in light of otherwise perfectly stable operation. OTOH I
> could be utterly wrong. I assemble our machines but my knowledge is
> incomplete.

That certainly looks like a sensor problem of some sort. Does it do this
jump when in BIOS?

I take it the answer is yes, at least to some degree (pun), because you
mentioned a boot time high temp alarm.

The reason I ask is that PCI cards can interfere with the reading and so
can software (which would obviously not be the case in BIOS, though). Long
shot, but possible.

> Thermal contraction and expansion is something that never occurred to
> me. The 7000 has always run barely warm or tepid to the touch, which I
> always assumed to indicate superior heat transfer capacity; but in
> retrospect it could have indicated insufficient heat transfer at the
> interface from the beginning, as you suggest.

Right. That's a common mistake: to figure if it's 'cool' (or not real warm)
that it's 'working great'. In fact, it has to be warmer than the
surrounding air to do anything at all. The fin tops won't have much heat
though. See how warm the base is.

> I have to pull the
> heatsink, no choice.

Worth a redo but while you're in there look for any damage or
contamination. It could also be that you got arctic silver smeared around.
That stuff can be your worst nightmare as it universally sticks to any and
everything, except for whatever you try to wipe it up with. That just
smears it more.

I won't use it for that reason, even if it did work better.


> I guess it's logical to assume that the CPU is ok.

I'd say so.


> Thanks for a very thoughtful reply.

Your welcome, and good luck. It seems a shame to lose a motherboard for
something this minor.

> Dave
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 4:52:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:03:52 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
wrote:

>DaveH wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>>
>> By bouncing I mean something like 35- 40- 45 - 41- 36- 39 at roughly 1
>> second intervals, for an average of ~40 C. That's what I've had since
>> the beginning, then the recent increase which occurred over an unknown
>> interval. You're right of course, it's never been reliable, but a
>> distinct change in trend has occurred.
>>
>> I've got USDM set to 1 sec re-flash intervals. With Task Manager
>> indicating 0-2% cpu usage, the temp is "bouncing between ~55 and ~110
>> C. That cannot reflect actual thermal conditions, so I must conclude
>> that a temp sensing clearly exists. That being the case, does it
>> follow that I have an actual high temp condition? If I do then it is
>> not related and thus coicidental. Insufficient data, but you may see
>> why I suspect a sensing problem only and not an actual high temp
>> condition in light of otherwise perfectly stable operation. OTOH I
>> could be utterly wrong. I assemble our machines but my knowledge is
>> incomplete.
>
>That certainly looks like a sensor problem of some sort. Does it do this
>jump when in BIOS?
>
>I take it the answer is yes, at least to some degree (pun), because you
>mentioned a boot time high temp alarm.
>
>The reason I ask is that PCI cards can interfere with the reading and so
>can software (which would obviously not be the case in BIOS, though). Long
>shot, but possible.
>
>> Thermal contraction and expansion is something that never occurred to
>> me. The 7000 has always run barely warm or tepid to the touch, which I
>> always assumed to indicate superior heat transfer capacity; but in
>> retrospect it could have indicated insufficient heat transfer at the
>> interface from the beginning, as you suggest.
>
>Right. That's a common mistake: to figure if it's 'cool' (or not real warm)
>that it's 'working great'. In fact, it has to be warmer than the
>surrounding air to do anything at all. The fin tops won't have much heat
>though. See how warm the base is.
Yes--A temp differential must exist for thermal energy transfer. I'm
guessing you're well familiar with the Zalman 7000 type sinks? Very
massive, with massive area. I stopped the fan once a few weeks ago and
noted that the heatsink heated up very quickly. I was thinking through
exactly the compromised interface scenario. Rapid no-fan heating
suggested good interface integrity.

I just now felt the base and it is virtually at ambient temp--70 F. In
fact, the whole thing is cool to the touch. Puter Idling. .....

....Now running CPU Burn-in and Prime 95simultaneously, 100% usage.
Temps: 28, 75, 105, 99, 41, 135. Heatsink base mildly warm, fins
almost tepid. Readings are clearly more erratic, making larger swings
under these conditions. Interesting. ....

I don't know--maybe these Zalman's are simply able to move a ton of
energy quickly.

What a nightmare. I've wondered if I should just leave it alone?
That's what the boys on the Epox group suggested; but such a condition
makes me nervous. I should have bought that Intel 865PERLL board, but
I've got 8KHA+ and 8K7A machines that are trouble free.

Could you suggest a heatsink compound alternative?
What about that good old white stuff?
I wonder what the average or mean failure temp is for a P4 Northwood?

Dave


>
>> I have to pull the
>> heatsink, no choice.
>
>Worth a redo but while you're in there look for any damage or
>contamination. It could also be that you got arctic silver smeared around.
>That stuff can be your worst nightmare as it universally sticks to any and
>everything, except for whatever you try to wipe it up with. That just
>smears it more.
>
>I won't use it for that reason, even if it did work better.
>
>
>> I guess it's logical to assume that the CPU is ok.
>
>I'd say so.
>
>
>> Thanks for a very thoughtful reply.
>
>Your welcome, and good luck. It seems a shame to lose a motherboard for
>something this minor.
>
>> Dave
>>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 5:29:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:

<snip>

>
> Yes--A temp differential must exist for thermal energy transfer. I'm
> guessing you're well familiar with the Zalman 7000 type sinks? Very
> massive, with massive area. I stopped the fan once a few weeks ago and
> noted that the heatsink heated up very quickly. I was thinking through
> exactly the compromised interface scenario. Rapid no-fan heating
> suggested good interface integrity.
>
> I just now felt the base and it is virtually at ambient temp--70 F. In
> fact, the whole thing is cool to the touch. Puter Idling. .....
>
> ...Now running CPU Burn-in and Prime 95simultaneously, 100% usage.
> Temps: 28, 75, 105, 99, 41, 135. Heatsink base mildly warm, fins
> almost tepid. Readings are clearly more erratic, making larger swings
> under these conditions. Interesting. ....
>
> I don't know--maybe these Zalman's are simply able to move a ton of
> energy quickly.

Yes, they move a lot of heat but, frankly, it's hard enough to get a 'feel'
for things when you've got multiples to compare against and at this stage
all we're doing is speculating when there's no frame of reference to base
even a guess on


> What a nightmare. I've wondered if I should just leave it alone?
> That's what the boys on the Epox group suggested; but such a condition
> makes me nervous. I should have bought that Intel 865PERLL board, but
> I've got 8KHA+ and 8K7A machines that are trouble free.

Well, you put it on once, you can do it again. And it's the only way to
know for sure.


> Could you suggest a heatsink compound alternative?
> What about that good old white stuff?

Unless you're doing some heavy duty overclocking the good ole white stuff
should be fine.

Btw, the final straw for me and arctic silver was when I saw actual system
failure from the stuff leaching onto processor pins. Not permanent damage
as it came back once I got the pins cleaned off but it reminded me of some
sort of alien plague. It just 'appears' where ever it can be the biggest
pain and it seems to procreate as one molecule on a finger is enough to
contaminate an entire planet.

Speaking of which, they should have done a Star Trek episode with it.
Geordie gets some on a finger and from then on every plasma relay he
touches starts acting bizarre. Then he touches Worf and every console Worf
works at starts acting bizarre. And so on, and so on. Probably turn Data
into a mumbling pile of positronic mush and you know they're really in
trouble when Data don't work.

Enterprise is saved when Scotty reappears from his jaunt in the runabout
and pours Aldeberan whiskey over all the consoles to clean them out while
reminiscing of a similar problem on the original Enterprise; no bloody A,
B, C, or D.

> I wonder what the average or mean failure temp is for a P4 Northwood?

It should self protect.

>
> Dave
>
<snip>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 6:02:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:54:18 GMT, Stephen
> <stephen2002{NOSPAM}@lurker.homeip.net> wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:00:27 -0400, DaveH
>><ddhartwick@IGIVEUPearthlink.net> had a flock of green cheek conures
>>squawk out:
>>
>>
>>>I have a Northwood 2.8 ghz on an Epox 4PDA2+ and recently noticed CPU
>>>temps bouncing around 65 C and higher. Arctic Silver and Zalman
>>>7000Cu---don't think that's the problem, temps were stable at ~40 C
>>>for 2 years.
>>>
>>>I suspect the mobo sensors have had it. Machine is perfectly stable
>>>otherwise.
>>>
>>>I could replace the mobo, or CPU or--- mobo and CPU. Logic dictates
>>>that I replace the mobo and retain the current CPU.
>>>
>>>Am I correct in assuming the probability is low that a faulty CPU is
>>>the problem?
>>>
>>
>>It could be that the cpu heatsink is clogged with dust.
>>
>>Or, spyware/trojan/virus or other background task having fun on your
>>pc.
>>
>>Stephen
>
> Can spyware/trojan/virus infect BIOS firmware? The wacky readings show
> up in PC Health in BIOS setup.
>
> Heatsink is clean, barely warm under full load.
> Dave

Barely warm? Hmmm...before replacing the motherboard I'd clean off and
reapply the thermal compound and see how the temps read for the next
week after that.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 6:04:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:28:32 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
> wrote:
>
>>None of those are likely. Assuming temps really have risen under the same
>>operating conditions it's more likely either a dirty heatsink, heatsink fan
>>failing (running slow), thermal compound migration/dry, heatsink
>>mechanically shifted (either the fan or on the processor), or a case
>>cooling problem caused by dirty fans, fan failure (or running slow), or
>>airflow blockage.
>
> Everything's clean. I checked that first thing. I've also suspected
> mechanical shifting or otherwise mechanical compromise of the HSF/cpu
> arrangement. But this machine is absolutely stationary and screws
> firmly torques. It's hard to envision the HSF simply drifting out of
> place.

Check the PSU...it's important for case airflow. If it's filled with dust...


--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 24, 2005 11:36:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"David Maynard" <nospam@private.net> wrote in message
news:11bna31nf2n8sbe@corp.supernews.com...
> DaveH wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Yes--A temp differential must exist for thermal energy transfer. I'm
> > guessing you're well familiar with the Zalman 7000 type sinks? Very
> > massive, with massive area. I stopped the fan once a few weeks ago and
> > noted that the heatsink heated up very quickly. I was thinking through
> > exactly the compromised interface scenario. Rapid no-fan heating
> > suggested good interface integrity.
> >
> > I just now felt the base and it is virtually at ambient temp--70 F. In
> > fact, the whole thing is cool to the touch. Puter Idling. .....
> >
> > ...Now running CPU Burn-in and Prime 95simultaneously, 100% usage.
> > Temps: 28, 75, 105, 99, 41, 135. Heatsink base mildly warm, fins
> > almost tepid. Readings are clearly more erratic, making larger swings
> > under these conditions. Interesting. ....
> >
> > I don't know--maybe these Zalman's are simply able to move a ton of
> > energy quickly.
>
> Yes, they move a lot of heat but, frankly, it's hard enough to get a
'feel'
> for things when you've got multiples to compare against and at this stage
> all we're doing is speculating when there's no frame of reference to base
> even a guess on
>
>
> > What a nightmare. I've wondered if I should just leave it alone?
> > That's what the boys on the Epox group suggested; but such a condition
> > makes me nervous. I should have bought that Intel 865PERLL board, but
> > I've got 8KHA+ and 8K7A machines that are trouble free.
>
> Well, you put it on once, you can do it again. And it's the only way to
> know for sure.
>
>
> > Could you suggest a heatsink compound alternative?
> > What about that good old white stuff?
>
> Unless you're doing some heavy duty overclocking the good ole white stuff
> should be fine.
>
> Btw, the final straw for me and arctic silver was when I saw actual system
> failure from the stuff leaching onto processor pins. Not permanent damage
> as it came back once I got the pins cleaned off but it reminded me of some
> sort of alien plague. It just 'appears' where ever it can be the biggest
> pain and it seems to procreate as one molecule on a finger is enough to
> contaminate an entire planet.
>
> Speaking of which, they should have done a Star Trek episode with it.
> Geordie gets some on a finger and from then on every plasma relay he
> touches starts acting bizarre. Then he touches Worf and every console Worf
> works at starts acting bizarre. And so on, and so on. Probably turn Data
> into a mumbling pile of positronic mush and you know they're really in
> trouble when Data don't work.
>
> Enterprise is saved when Scotty reappears from his jaunt in the runabout
> and pours Aldeberan whiskey over all the consoles to clean them out while
> reminiscing of a similar problem on the original Enterprise; no bloody A,
> B, C, or D.
>
> > I wonder what the average or mean failure temp is for a P4 Northwood?
>
> It should self protect.
>
> >
> > Dave
> >
> <snip>
>
If your Arctic siver leaked into your pins you applied way too much. All it
needs is a match head sized drop spread over the core with any excess
scraped off so it almost transparent..
All you need it for is to fill tiny pits in both surfaces. It shouldnt
squeeze out the sides.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 25, 2005 2:12:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

dawg wrote:
> "David Maynard" <nospam@private.net> wrote in message
> news:11bna31nf2n8sbe@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>DaveH wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>Yes--A temp differential must exist for thermal energy transfer. I'm
>>>guessing you're well familiar with the Zalman 7000 type sinks? Very
>>>massive, with massive area. I stopped the fan once a few weeks ago and
>>>noted that the heatsink heated up very quickly. I was thinking through
>>>exactly the compromised interface scenario. Rapid no-fan heating
>>>suggested good interface integrity.
>>>
>>>I just now felt the base and it is virtually at ambient temp--70 F. In
>>>fact, the whole thing is cool to the touch. Puter Idling. .....
>>>
>>>...Now running CPU Burn-in and Prime 95simultaneously, 100% usage.
>>>Temps: 28, 75, 105, 99, 41, 135. Heatsink base mildly warm, fins
>>>almost tepid. Readings are clearly more erratic, making larger swings
>>>under these conditions. Interesting. ....
>>>
>>>I don't know--maybe these Zalman's are simply able to move a ton of
>>>energy quickly.
>>
>>Yes, they move a lot of heat but, frankly, it's hard enough to get a
>
> 'feel'
>
>>for things when you've got multiples to compare against and at this stage
>>all we're doing is speculating when there's no frame of reference to base
>>even a guess on
>>
>>
>>
>>>What a nightmare. I've wondered if I should just leave it alone?
>>>That's what the boys on the Epox group suggested; but such a condition
>>>makes me nervous. I should have bought that Intel 865PERLL board, but
>>>I've got 8KHA+ and 8K7A machines that are trouble free.
>>
>>Well, you put it on once, you can do it again. And it's the only way to
>>know for sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Could you suggest a heatsink compound alternative?
>>>What about that good old white stuff?
>>
>>Unless you're doing some heavy duty overclocking the good ole white stuff
>>should be fine.
>>
>>Btw, the final straw for me and arctic silver was when I saw actual system
>>failure from the stuff leaching onto processor pins. Not permanent damage
>>as it came back once I got the pins cleaned off but it reminded me of some
>>sort of alien plague. It just 'appears' where ever it can be the biggest
>>pain and it seems to procreate as one molecule on a finger is enough to
>>contaminate an entire planet.
>>
>>Speaking of which, they should have done a Star Trek episode with it.
>>Geordie gets some on a finger and from then on every plasma relay he
>>touches starts acting bizarre. Then he touches Worf and every console Worf
>>works at starts acting bizarre. And so on, and so on. Probably turn Data
>>into a mumbling pile of positronic mush and you know they're really in
>>trouble when Data don't work.
>>
>>Enterprise is saved when Scotty reappears from his jaunt in the runabout
>>and pours Aldeberan whiskey over all the consoles to clean them out while
>>reminiscing of a similar problem on the original Enterprise; no bloody A,
>>B, C, or D.
>>
>>
>>>I wonder what the average or mean failure temp is for a P4 Northwood?
>>
>>It should self protect.
>>
>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>
>><snip>
>>
> If your Arctic siver leaked into your pins you applied way too much.

Actually, no I didn't. It apparently got on a finger, or something else,
that then contacted the socket, or the CPU, or lord knows what.

The system also worked fine for quite a while before the problem manifested.

Which was the point of my amusing Star Trek episode.

> All it
> needs is a match head sized drop spread over the core with any excess
> scraped off so it almost transparent..
> All you need it for is to fill tiny pits in both surfaces. It shouldnt
> squeeze out the sides.
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
June 26, 2005 10:59:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Great Star Trek tale Dave. I'm a huge Trekkie. I watched the original
runs in the late 60's with my Dad.

You mentioned P4 self-protection. I assume there is on-chip
auto-shutdown? Fabulous if that's true. Something of which I've not
heard.

Whelp--I'm on my old AMD machine now. The problem machine is on the
table awaiting biopsy.

Dave


On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:29:53 -0500, David Maynard <nospam@private.net>
wrote:

>DaveH wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> Yes--A temp differential must exist for thermal energy transfer. I'm
>> guessing you're well familiar with the Zalman 7000 type sinks? Very
>> massive, with massive area. I stopped the fan once a few weeks ago and
>> noted that the heatsink heated up very quickly. I was thinking through
>> exactly the compromised interface scenario. Rapid no-fan heating
>> suggested good interface integrity.
>>
>> I just now felt the base and it is virtually at ambient temp--70 F. In
>> fact, the whole thing is cool to the touch. Puter Idling. .....
>>
>> ...Now running CPU Burn-in and Prime 95simultaneously, 100% usage.
>> Temps: 28, 75, 105, 99, 41, 135. Heatsink base mildly warm, fins
>> almost tepid. Readings are clearly more erratic, making larger swings
>> under these conditions. Interesting. ....
>>
>> I don't know--maybe these Zalman's are simply able to move a ton of
>> energy quickly.
>
>Yes, they move a lot of heat but, frankly, it's hard enough to get a 'feel'
>for things when you've got multiples to compare against and at this stage
>all we're doing is speculating when there's no frame of reference to base
>even a guess on
>
>
>> What a nightmare. I've wondered if I should just leave it alone?
>> That's what the boys on the Epox group suggested; but such a condition
>> makes me nervous. I should have bought that Intel 865PERLL board, but
>> I've got 8KHA+ and 8K7A machines that are trouble free.
>
>Well, you put it on once, you can do it again. And it's the only way to
>know for sure.
>
>
>> Could you suggest a heatsink compound alternative?
>> What about that good old white stuff?
>
>Unless you're doing some heavy duty overclocking the good ole white stuff
>should be fine.
>
>Btw, the final straw for me and arctic silver was when I saw actual system
>failure from the stuff leaching onto processor pins. Not permanent damage
>as it came back once I got the pins cleaned off but it reminded me of some
>sort of alien plague. It just 'appears' where ever it can be the biggest
>pain and it seems to procreate as one molecule on a finger is enough to
>contaminate an entire planet.
>
>Speaking of which, they should have done a Star Trek episode with it.
>Geordie gets some on a finger and from then on every plasma relay he
>touches starts acting bizarre. Then he touches Worf and every console Worf
>works at starts acting bizarre. And so on, and so on. Probably turn Data
>into a mumbling pile of positronic mush and you know they're really in
>trouble when Data don't work.
>
>Enterprise is saved when Scotty reappears from his jaunt in the runabout
>and pours Aldeberan whiskey over all the consoles to clean them out while
>reminiscing of a similar problem on the original Enterprise; no bloody A,
>B, C, or D.
>
>> I wonder what the average or mean failure temp is for a P4 Northwood?
>
>It should self protect.
>
>>
>> Dave
>>
><snip>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
a b à CPUs
July 8, 2005 5:38:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

DaveH wrote:

> Dave,
> Well--I ended up replacing the motherboard. I did not try
> re-installing the HSF on the original board.
>
> I think I used twice as much Arctic Silver than specified, but now the
> the idle temp is about 32 C and full load is about 53 C, ambient is 70
> F. This looks too low to me but I don't know what sensor is doing
> what.
> These temps appear in BIOS and in USDM. I'll assume a socket sensor is
> producing this data so add 10 deg C resulting in 42 and 63 which
> sounds about right.
>
> The HSF feels about the same as it did on the old board and the arctic
> silver splotch from the original install looked ok, so I'm going to
> guess that I never actually had an over-temp condition.
>
> Anyway--prob solved, even though the origins are not 100% known.
> I was more worried about this thing functioning properly than I was
> about analysis.

That is often the case and a perfectly legitimate reason.

> Dave
>
!