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What's wrong with this computer??

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August 5, 2005 9:51:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's been
fine but this morning he got an error message saying it couldn't detect
the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning storm last night. Buddy
says he had the computer (including his modem) on during the storm but
that it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get online
for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection. Then this morning it
wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible for the modem or PS or motherboard to
get smoked even if hooked up to a UPS?

What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
determine which part(s) is bad?

Parts list:

Antec SLK2650-BQE Black Steel ATX Computer Case 350W Power Supply

Foxconn NF4UK8AA-8EKRS Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard

AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Winchester 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model
ADA3000BIBOX - Retail

GIGABYTE GV-RX30128D Radeon X300 128MB DDR PCI Express x16 Video Card

mushkin Value 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200)
Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model 991145

Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA NCQ ST3120827AS 120GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150
Hard Drive - OEM

US Robotics 2976 56Kbps Data/Fax/Voice Modem - OEM

SAMSUNG Black IDE DVD Burner Model TS-H552U/BEBN BLK - OEM

More about : wrong computer

Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 5, 2005 9:51:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

UPS connects computer direct to AC mains when UPS is not in
battery backup mode. Any protection circuits inside the UPS
are same protection circuits inside power strip protectors.
Neither claim top protect from the type of transient that
typically damages electronics.

You have describes what could be overstress. A transient
was small. Only enough to overstress electronics which then
suffer from accelerated deterioration.

The only effective protector is one that makes a short (ie
'less than 10 foot') connection to a single point earth
ground. Ineffective protectors such as power strips avoid
mentioning earthing to make excessively profitable sales.

To find damage, look for items that could have made a path
from the lightning cloud to earth ground. One typical item is
the modem. Incoming on AC electric black (hot) wire. Shunted
to safety ground (green) wire by the UPS. Enters computer on
green wire, through motherboard, through modem, then out to
earth ground via phone line.

For example, RAM would not be damaged. RAM has an incoming
path from motherboard, but no outgoing path. Therefore no
damage. Electrical circuit through electronics is how
lightning would damage or overstress electronics.

The phone line has 'whole house' protectors installed by the
telco for free. That would be the path from telephone line to
earth ground. The long term solution is to put a 'whole
house' protector (properly earthed) on AC electric. Protector
costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Meanwhile, information for symptoms is first required.
Information from the system (event) log. Report from Device
Manager. Execute diagnostics from component manufacturer or
third party diagnostics (ie Memtst, Hyperterminal, etc) to
obtain a list of suspect components.

Carbon wrote:
> I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's
> been fine but this morning he got an error message saying it
> couldn't detect the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning
> storm last night. Buddy says he had the computer (including his
> modem) on during the storm but that it was hooked up to a UPS.
> Afterward he was only able to get online for 15 seconds or so before
> losing the connection. Then this morning it wouldn't boot at all. Is
> it possible for the modem or PS or motherboard to get smoked even if
> hooked up to a UPS?
>
> What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
> determine which part(s) is bad?
August 5, 2005 9:51:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I think...for the obvious.... He should (AND HAS) learn(ed) not to have his
system running(and connected?!) during a local storm.
There are very few things that will save equipment during a lightning
strike(close or direct) and a UPS is not one of them unless stated as such
and paid big for.( and house wiring properly installed)

"Carbon" <nobrac@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.08.05.17.51.06.549574@nospam.verizon.net...
>I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's been
> fine but this morning he got an error message saying it couldn't detect
> the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning storm last night. Buddy
> says he had the computer (including his modem) on during the storm but
> that it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get online
> for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection. Then this morning it
> wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible for the modem or PS or motherboard to
> get smoked even if hooked up to a UPS?
>
> What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
> determine which part(s) is bad?
>
> Parts list:
>
> Antec SLK2650-BQE Black Steel ATX Computer Case 350W Power Supply
>
> Foxconn NF4UK8AA-8EKRS Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard
>
> AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Winchester 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model
> ADA3000BIBOX - Retail
>
> GIGABYTE GV-RX30128D Radeon X300 128MB DDR PCI Express x16 Video Card
>
> mushkin Value 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200)
> Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model 991145
>
> Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA NCQ ST3120827AS 120GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150
> Hard Drive - OEM
>
> US Robotics 2976 56Kbps Data/Fax/Voice Modem - OEM
>
> SAMSUNG Black IDE DVD Burner Model TS-H552U/BEBN BLK - OEM
Related resources
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 5, 2005 9:51:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

A lightening hit WILL fry the system, regardless of what protection you have
the system plugged into. If you use a good surge supressor (NOT a UPS) that
comes with a lightening guarantee, AND you've saved the receipt then you can
file a claim to have them replace your surge supressor and computer.

--
DaveW



"Carbon" <nobrac@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.08.05.17.51.06.549574@nospam.verizon.net...
>I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's been
> fine but this morning he got an error message saying it couldn't detect
> the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning storm last night. Buddy
> says he had the computer (including his modem) on during the storm but
> that it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get online
> for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection. Then this morning it
> wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible for the modem or PS or motherboard to
> get smoked even if hooked up to a UPS?
>
> What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
> determine which part(s) is bad?
>
> Parts list:
>
> Antec SLK2650-BQE Black Steel ATX Computer Case 350W Power Supply
>
> Foxconn NF4UK8AA-8EKRS Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard
>
> AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Winchester 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model
> ADA3000BIBOX - Retail
>
> GIGABYTE GV-RX30128D Radeon X300 128MB DDR PCI Express x16 Video Card
>
> mushkin Value 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200)
> Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model 991145
>
> Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA NCQ ST3120827AS 120GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150
> Hard Drive - OEM
>
> US Robotics 2976 56Kbps Data/Fax/Voice Modem - OEM
>
> SAMSUNG Black IDE DVD Burner Model TS-H552U/BEBN BLK - OEM
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 5, 2005 9:51:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
> UPS connects computer direct to AC mains when UPS is not in
> battery backup mode. Any protection circuits inside the UPS
> are same protection circuits inside power strip protectors.
> Neither claim top protect from the type of transient that
> typically damages electronics.

That's true of the typical low cost 'UPS' systems, which are really standby
power systems, but not true of UPS in general.

>
> You have describes what could be overstress. A transient
> was small. Only enough to overstress electronics which then
> suffer from accelerated deterioration.
>
> The only effective protector is one that makes a short (ie
> 'less than 10 foot') connection to a single point earth
> ground. Ineffective protectors such as power strips avoid
> mentioning earthing to make excessively profitable sales.

Nonsense.

And we're still waiting for the explanation of how aircraft manage the
magical "10 foot ground wire" for their electrical systems.

>
> To find damage, look for items that could have made a path
> from the lightning cloud to earth ground. One typical item is
> the modem. Incoming on AC electric black (hot) wire. Shunted
> to safety ground (green) wire by the UPS. Enters computer on
> green wire, through motherboard, through modem, then out to
> earth ground via phone line.
>
> For example, RAM would not be damaged. RAM has an incoming
> path from motherboard, but no outgoing path. Therefore no
> damage. Electrical circuit through electronics is how
> lightning would damage or overstress electronics.
>
> The phone line has 'whole house' protectors installed by the
> telco for free. That would be the path from telephone line to
> earth ground. The long term solution is to put a 'whole
> house' protector (properly earthed) on AC electric. Protector
> costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Great. I want to protect 1 device so tell me where I can get one of those
$1 whole house protectors.

>
> Meanwhile, information for symptoms is first required.
> Information from the system (event) log. Report from Device
> Manager. Execute diagnostics from component manufacturer or
> third party diagnostics (ie Memtst, Hyperterminal, etc) to
> obtain a list of suspect components.
>
> Carbon wrote:
>
>>I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's
>>been fine but this morning he got an error message saying it
>>couldn't detect the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning
>>storm last night. Buddy says he had the computer (including his
>>modem) on during the storm but that it was hooked up to a UPS.
>>Afterward he was only able to get online for 15 seconds or so before
>>losing the connection. Then this morning it wouldn't boot at all. Is
>>it possible for the modem or PS or motherboard to get smoked even if
>>hooked up to a UPS?
>>
>>What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
>>determine which part(s) is bad?
August 5, 2005 11:46:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:51:07 +0000, Carbon wrote:

> I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's been
> fine but this morning he got an error message saying it couldn't detect
> the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning storm last night.
> Buddy says he had the computer (including his modem) on during the storm
> but that it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get
> online for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection. Then this
> morning it wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible for the modem or PS or
> motherboard to get smoked even if hooked up to a UPS?
>
> What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
> determine which part(s) is bad?

Thanks for your advice so far. Assuming it is a lightning strike I'm
wondering the best way to determine which parts have failed. It could be
the PS, the motherboard, the CPU, the hard drive.

I have a spare PS I can swap in, but my guess is either the motherboard or
the CPU. I don't have a spare socket 939 board or CPU.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 5, 2005 11:46:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Follow the path that lightning would have taken to obtain
earth ground. Power supply contains galvanic isolation good
for up to 2000 volts. Listed previously was but one example
that makes an easier path.

Meanwhile symptoms from Event log, Device Manager, and
manufacturer diagnostics go farther and faster to eliminating
most speculations. Speculate is all anyone can do without
those always first required facts.

We know that an adjacent UPS (not to be confused with a
building wide UPS) provides the transient with virtually every
wire into a computer. We know that outgoing paths to earth
ground include phone line, wire draped behind computer on
baseboard heat, linoleum tile, or concrete floor. These
would be but a few of numerous possible incoming or outgoing
paths.

Generally disk drives do not have both an incoming and
outgoing path. But then how drive is connected physically and
electrically can change those possible electrical circuits.

Motherboard, if properly mounted, has a single connection
from motherboard DC ground to chassis safety ground. Multiple
connections could create other transient conductive paths.

Normally, a transient finds earth ground, destructively,
through modem via the motherboard and modem DC ground. This
path often causes damage on modem's DAA circuit (phone line
side) - ie off hook relay's driver transistor. But if some
unique connection permit the transient to find modem via the
PCI bus, the PCI control electronics for that slot may be
damaged.

Power supply is rarely damaged. Others claimed a
(nonexistent) UPS transformer provides protection. Well,
properly designed power supply already has transformer
isolation, other galvanic isolation, and in-line filters. Any
protection that was going to work on power line is already
inside that power supply. However, transient finds
destructive paths bypassing the power supply; as described
earlier.

Meanwhile, power supply integrity is confirmed in less than
two minutes using a 3.5 digit multimeter. No faster way, no
time wasted, and no money wasting by swapping parts.

Provided in a previous post was first information that
should be provided. Otherwise we must write chapters on what
could and might not have failed.

Carbon wrote:
> Thanks for your advice so far. Assuming it is a lightning strike I'm
> wondering the best way to determine which parts have failed. It
> could be the PS, the motherboard, the CPU, the hard drive.
>
> I have a spare PS I can swap in, but my guess is either the
> motherboard or the CPU. I don't have a spare socket 939 board or CPU.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 6, 2005 2:29:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:
> w_tom wrote:

> > The only effective protector is one that makes a short (ie
> > 'less than 10 foot') connection to a single point earth
> > ground. Ineffective protectors such as power strips avoid
> > mentioning earthing to make excessively profitable sales.
>
> Nonsense.

Even Consumer Reports' electrical electrical engineers thought plug-in
protectors helped, and every bill for my home insurance includes a
brochure advocating the use of plug-in and whole house surge protectors
and arc fault detectors.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 6, 2005 3:01:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Carbon wrote:

> I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months
> ago. It's been fine but this morning he got an error message
> saying it couldn't detect the hard drive. There was a fairly
> large lightning storm last night. Buddy says he had the
> computer (including his modem) on during the storm but that
> it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get
> online for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection.
> Then this morning it wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible
> for the modem or PS or motherboard to get smoked even if
> hooked up to a UPS?

You start looking where the computer is connected to the outside world
-- power supply, surge protector, modem, any peripherals connected to
the outside world (their power cords). Inspect everything for burned
or ruptured parts, and don't continue using anything that has them,
especially ruptured capacitors, since they filter out voltage spikes
generated by the equipment itself and not only improve reliability but
also prevent chips from damaging one another. Both sides of each
circuit board should be checked, including the board inside the power
supply.

The US Robotics modem may have a 5-year or even lifetime warranty.

Good grounds, plug-in surge protectors (including for modem, DSL, or
cable) and a whole house surge protector improve the odds against
suffering damage. If your house is old, the phone company's surge
protection may consist of just a couple of neon bulbs, and a more
modern protector based on MOVs will be much better.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 6, 2005 4:19:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

troll

w_tom <w_tom1 hotmail.com> wrote:

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> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:58:16 -0500
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>
> Follow the path that lightning would have taken to obtain
> earth ground. Power supply contains galvanic isolation good
> for up to 2000 volts. Listed previously was but one example
> that makes an easier path.
>
> Meanwhile symptoms from Event log, Device Manager, and
> manufacturer diagnostics go farther and faster to eliminating
> most speculations. Speculate is all anyone can do without
> those always first required facts.
>
> We know that an adjacent UPS (not to be confused with a
> building wide UPS) provides the transient with virtually every
> wire into a computer. We know that outgoing paths to earth
> ground include phone line, wire draped behind computer on
> baseboard heat, linoleum tile, or concrete floor. These
> would be but a few of numerous possible incoming or outgoing
> paths.
>
> Generally disk drives do not have both an incoming and
> outgoing path. But then how drive is connected physically and
> electrically can change those possible electrical circuits.
>
> Motherboard, if properly mounted, has a single connection
> from motherboard DC ground to chassis safety ground. Multiple
> connections could create other transient conductive paths.
>
> Normally, a transient finds earth ground, destructively,
> through modem via the motherboard and modem DC ground. This
> path often causes damage on modem's DAA circuit (phone line
> side) - ie off hook relay's driver transistor. But if some
> unique connection permit the transient to find modem via the
> PCI bus, the PCI control electronics for that slot may be
> damaged.
>
> Power supply is rarely damaged. Others claimed a
> (nonexistent) UPS transformer provides protection. Well,
> properly designed power supply already has transformer
> isolation, other galvanic isolation, and in-line filters. Any
> protection that was going to work on power line is already
> inside that power supply. However, transient finds
> destructive paths bypassing the power supply; as described
> earlier.
>
> Meanwhile, power supply integrity is confirmed in less than
> two minutes using a 3.5 digit multimeter. No faster way, no
> time wasted, and no money wasting by swapping parts.
>
> Provided in a previous post was first information that
> should be provided. Otherwise we must write chapters on what
> could and might not have failed.
>
> Carbon wrote:
>> Thanks for your advice so far. Assuming it is a lightning strike I'm
>> wondering the best way to determine which parts have failed. It
>> could be the PS, the motherboard, the CPU, the hard drive.
>>
>> I have a spare PS I can swap in, but my guess is either the
>> motherboard or the CPU. I don't have a spare socket 939 board or CPU.
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 6, 2005 5:24:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Carbon" <nobrac@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.08.05.19.46.16.84382@nospam.verizon.net...
> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:51:07 +0000, Carbon wrote:
>
>> I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's been
>> fine but this morning he got an error message saying it couldn't detect
>> the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning storm last night.
>> Buddy says he had the computer (including his modem) on during the storm
>> but that it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get
>> online for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection. Then this
>> morning it wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible for the modem or PS or
>> motherboard to get smoked even if hooked up to a UPS?
>>
>> What do you experts think is wrong? What's the best way for me to
>> determine which part(s) is bad?
>
First, you can look at each of the components. After my lightning hit, I
could see scorch marks on the MB and under the CPU. I knew the PSU was gone
because it wouldn't even try to start. The hard drive and CDRW that died
didn't show any visible marks. [Only the video adapter and the second hard
drive survived]

The best way to test any components that don't show visible signs is to try
them out in a known good system. Recognizing that the component might be
damaged in a way that it might damage a working system.

Of course, another method would be to start replacing components one at a
time with known good ones until [if] the system ever runs. The order I
would try would be:
PSU -> MB -> Memory/CPU -> PCI cards -> Drives.


> Thanks for your advice so far. Assuming it is a lightning strike I'm
> wondering the best way to determine which parts have failed. It could be
> the PS, the motherboard, the CPU, the hard drive.
>
> I have a spare PS I can swap in, but my guess is either the motherboard or
> the CPU. I don't have a spare socket 939 board or CPU.
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 6, 2005 5:57:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Carbon wrote:
> I built a computer for a buddy of mine a couple of months ago. It's been
> fine but this morning he got an error message saying it couldn't detect
> the hard drive. There was a fairly large lightning storm last night. Buddy
> says he had the computer (including his modem) on during the storm but
> that it was hooked up to a UPS. Afterward he was only able to get online
> for 15 seconds or so before losing the connection. Then this morning it
> wouldn't boot at all. Is it possible for the modem or PS or motherboard to
> get smoked even if hooked up to a UPS?

Of course. A UPS is not going to stop a lightning strike!




--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 6, 2005 11:38:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com wrote:
> David Maynard wrote:
>
>>w_tom wrote:
>
>
>>>The only effective protector is one that makes a short (ie
>>>'less than 10 foot') connection to a single point earth
>>>ground. Ineffective protectors such as power strips avoid
>>>mentioning earthing to make excessively profitable sales.
>>
>>Nonsense.
>
>
> Even Consumer Reports' electrical electrical engineers thought plug-in
> protectors helped, and every bill for my home insurance includes a
> brochure advocating the use of plug-in and whole house surge protectors
> and arc fault detectors.
>

Of course they do. What w_tom does is takes snippets of electrical
principles and then misapply them.

Electronic devices won't be damaged if no damaging potential occurs across
them (the airplane example) so the task is to figure out how to prevent
that from occurring.

The whole house protector attempts it by shunting the potential to ground
but it's location presents some problems. For one, since it's at the entry
point it must deal with huge currents and that's the reason for his "10
foot" earth reference. But all wires have resistance, capacitance, and
inductance, even his '10 foot' earth ground, as do surge devices and
'earth' itself. The upshot of this is that transients, albeit greatly
reduced, can get past the whole house protector.

Whole house protectors also don't protect very well from transients
generated by devices *in* the home environment because, while his '10 foot
earth' at the entry point may have a relatively low
resistance/inductance/capacitance, the wires from, say, the backyard pool
pump motor all the way back to the entry point don't. So the potential at
the entry point may be wonderfully clamped to ground with high voltage
transients all over the interior.

A protector at the device itself can take care of those.

What if there isn't a whole house protector and only local protectors on
the device itself? They still work (if done properly).

w_tom is fixated on the length of the earth ground because he's fixated on
the whole house protector but, remember, it isn't being at 'earth
potential' that protects the device, it's if there is no damaging potential
*across* it and local protectors work by clamping the wires *at the device*
together. There's no potential difference.

The whole house protector *must* use 'ground' as the reference point
because it's trying to protect the 'whole house' but that's not the case
with the local protector. It makes no difference that the earth wire has
resistance because, from the perspective of protecting the device, it
doesn't care what potential is on it's 'earth terminal' as long as none of
the other wires are excessively different from it, and each other. And
since the local protector is clamping them together *at the device* there
isn't. The whole thing may 'jump' above earth ground, because of the earth
wire resistance, but they all 'jump' together, forced to by the protection
clamp, so there is no damaging potential across the device.

Btw, the whole house protector 'jumps' above ground too, as does the house,
it's just a matter of how far: the reason for the "10 foot" earth wire.

Ironically, the very thing w_tom claims is the major 'problem' with local
protectors is what makes them work. Specifically, wire resistance. As he
correctly notes, the amount of energy they can handle is a lot lower than a
whole house protector but the wire resistance from the entry point to the
interior limits the current into them. They simply do not have to deal with
the huge currents the whole house protector does so comparing them to one
is simply nonsense. Current limiting, btw, is not unique to the local
protectors. The whole house protector depends on the power company wiring
to limit the surge current into it as well.

Now, since the local protectors will work (assuming properly sized, wired,
and sufficient wiring resistance) why have a whole house protector? Well,
for one, you generally don't put local protectors on everything in the
house but I also said "from the perspective of protecting the device" and
there's another perspective: protecting the people. That 'jump' above earth
is irrelevant to the protected device but it isn't irrelevant to someone
who might be near, or touching, it. Hopefully, the whole house earth
protection shunts the huge currents and then the local protector shunts the
remaining so that things remain at a safe potential for the human inhabitants.

In practice, the power company is supposed to already provide a 'safety'
protector at their entry point, marginal at best, so the additional whole
house protector then further limits the surge so 'robust' devices will
likely survive, with that alone, and the interior protectors, on more
sensitive things, have less to deal with and so are more likely to survive.

So it's a protection *system*, not one device, with multiple methodologies,
considerations, and goals.

The biggest problem with local protection is that people don't connect them
correctly and, in particular, don't protect all the wires. E.g. a clamp on
the power might work fine but if you don't have the modem phone line
connection clamped to it as well then you haven't clamped all the wires
going in and out. And the same applies to the connected monitor, printer,
cable modem, etc. They should all be on the same local protector. Multiple
protectors, especially into different outlets, may not protect because of
the possibility they may each 'jump' differently during a surge.

Using local protection alone becomes progressively more difficult as the
system complexity increases because you can end up with connected devices
separated by significant distances, like with a local LAN, so that the
earth 'jump', that was irrelevant to the local device, becomes a problem
again. E.g. A computer on one end of the LAN 'jumps' relative to the other
end and now you have a potential difference. A whole house protector
reduces that problem because it reduces the magnitude of the surge
penetrating on into the interior and so reduces the 'jump' through the
local protector's earth ground.

As distances increase even more you can't depend on 'earth' being at the
same potential either but we have to stop somewhere ;) 

There's no 'magic' one thing and that's why responsible engineers will
recommend both whole house protection and local protectors on sensitive
equipment.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 7, 2005 9:03:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

<snip>

I love you David. If only one of us were a woman! hehehe


--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 7, 2005 9:03:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

spodosaurus wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> I love you David. If only one of us were a woman! hehehe
>
>

Talking surge protectors really does it for you, eh? hehe
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 8, 2005 6:06:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:21:03 -0400, w_tom wrote:

> The phone line has 'whole house' protectors installed by the
> telco for free. That would be the path from telephone line to
> earth ground.

Hmmmm. Not MY phone line or phone company. I've had too many phone
hookups blown out on surge protectors to ever believe that MY phone company
has installed any kind of protection. These days, since I only use my
modem for sending/receiving faxes, I just keep the phone line unplugged
from my modem when not being used. Luckily, I've never lost a modem so the
surge protectors must have given some protection.

Patty
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 8, 2005 10:09:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:
> spodosaurus wrote:
>
>> David Maynard wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> I love you David. If only one of us were a woman! hehehe
>>
>>
>
> Talking surge protectors really does it for you, eh? hehe
>

It gets my electrons spinning :-)

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 9, 2005 1:28:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Assumed was that phone line appliances are damaged by a
wave, entering on phone line, then crashing onto that
appliance like it was a beach. Oceans waves and electrical
transients are completely different. First an electrical
transient current flow through everything in a complete path
from cloud to ground. Then item or items in that path are
damaged. Essential incoming and outgoing paths are required
to have damage.

As demonstrated in the previous post, what is a most common
source of damage to phone line appliances? AC electric.
Why? Phone line provides the good outgoing path to earth.
Highest wires on utility pole provide a best incoming path. A
complete circuit - incoming and outgoing paths - exist for
damage to occur. Myths instead claim a modem is damaged when
only an incoming path - phone line - exists.

Meanwhile, a protector damaged by a transient provides
ineffective protection. Even modems have internal
protection. Sometimes a transient too small to overwhelm
protection inside a modem with damage the grossly undersized
and adjacent protector. Undersized so that you will *assume*
the protector provided protection.

Of course, even an effective 'whole house' phone line
protector provided by the telco will only be as effective as
the earth ground YOU have provided. A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground, which plug-in protectors hope
you never learn. Profits on grossly undersized plug-in
protectors are too large to be honest; to discuss the most
critical component in any protections system. Earth ground.
No dedicated connection to earth ground on that protector
meant no effective protection.

Also demonstrated in a figure from the National Institute of
Standards and Technology is how improperly earthing can
destroy telephone appliances. In this case, a fax machine is
damaged when telco and AC electric earthing is not properly
installed:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

But again, what do industry professional always discuss?
Earthing. Earthing is the most essential part of a protection
'system'. Something that ineffective plug-in protectors
routinely avoid discussing.

Patty wrote:
> Hmmmm. Not MY phone line or phone company. I've had too many phone
> hookups blown out on surge protectors to ever believe that MY phone
> company has installed any kind of protection. These days, since I
> only use my modem for sending/receiving faxes, I just keep the
> phone line unplugged from my modem when not being used. Luckily,
> I've never lost a modem so the surge protectors must have given
> some protection.
>
> Patty
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 9, 2005 9:54:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> Assumed was that phone line appliances are damaged by a
> wave, entering on phone line, then crashing onto that
> appliance like it was a beach. Oceans waves and electrical
> transients are completely different. First an electrical
> transient current flow through everything in a complete path
> from cloud to ground. Then item or items in that path are
> damaged. Essential incoming and outgoing paths are required
> to have damage.
>
> As demonstrated in the previous post, what is a most common
> source of damage to phone line appliances? AC electric.
> Why? Phone line provides the good outgoing path to earth.
> Highest wires on utility pole provide a best incoming path. A
> complete circuit - incoming and outgoing paths - exist for
> damage to occur. Myths instead claim a modem is damaged when
> only an incoming path - phone line - exists.
>
> Meanwhile, a protector damaged by a transient provides
> ineffective protection. Even modems have internal
> protection. Sometimes a transient too small to overwhelm
> protection inside a modem with damage the grossly undersized
> and adjacent protector. Undersized so that you will *assume*
> the protector provided protection.

Complete and utter nonsense.

> Of course, even an effective 'whole house' phone line
> protector provided by the telco will only be as effective as
> the earth ground YOU have provided.

More nonsense. "You" don't "provide" squat for the telco protector.

> A protector is only as
> effective as its earth ground, which plug-in protectors hope
> you never learn.

Still waiting for you to explain how aircraft get that '10 foot' earth cable.

> Profits on grossly undersized plug-in
> protectors are too large to be honest; to discuss the most
> critical component in any protections system. Earth ground.
> No dedicated connection to earth ground on that protector
> meant no effective protection.

More nonsense.

> Also demonstrated in a figure from the National Institute of
> Standards and Technology is how improperly earthing can
> destroy telephone appliances. In this case, a fax machine is
> damaged when telco and AC electric earthing is not properly
> installed:
> http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Good example of why a whole house protector is often insufficient.


> But again, what do industry professional always discuss?
> Earthing. Earthing is the most essential part of a protection
> 'system'. Something that ineffective plug-in protectors
> routinely avoid discussing.

No, they don't and you know it.

>
> Patty wrote:
>
>>Hmmmm. Not MY phone line or phone company. I've had too many phone
>>hookups blown out on surge protectors to ever believe that MY phone
>>company has installed any kind of protection. These days, since I
>>only use my modem for sending/receiving faxes, I just keep the
>>phone line unplugged from my modem when not being used. Luckily,
>>I've never lost a modem so the surge protectors must have given
>>some protection.
>>
>>Patty
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 10, 2005 3:26:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Lurkers are warned how to identify those who don't know; who
promote myths. Look at previous David Maynard posts. For
example, he claims surges are created by household
appliances. This was a myth promoted by plug-in manufacturers
when desperately seeking something to protect from. For if
appliances create such destructive transients, then appliances
are destroying themselves. For if appliances create such
destructive transients, then you are trooping weekly to the
hardware store to replace destroyed smoke detectors, bathroom
and kitchen GFCIs, your clock radio, dimmer switches, furnace
controls, etc. For if appliances create such destructive
transients, then you are replacing every plug-in protector
weekly or monthly. Their MOVs are not sized nor intended for
numerous and daily transients.

These are facts and numbers David routinely forgets because
he was caught and exposed in previous discussions with
insufficient technical knowledge. For him, posting such myths
are a form of revenge.

Notice again, he never says why. His responses are simply
"Complete and utter nonsense", "More nonsense", and some
totally irrelevant baloney about lightning to aircraft.
Obviously we are discussing Cloud to Ground lightning
transients, making airborne aircraft totally irrelevant. He
posts absurd claims without providing underlying facts or
numbers. It is an old Radio Moscow propaganda technique. The
reader will notice which posts provide numbers, professional
citations, and other information that David Maynard cannot and
does not challenge.

Which should you believe? Single phrase replies (without any
numbers) from David Maynard, or well proven concepts of
protection even defined by the National Institute for
Standards and Technology (same people who also do the national
time standard).

Lurkers are warned about those who use propaganda rather
than use science, professional citations, the numbers, and
even what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752. These are well
proven facts from GE and Westinghouse science papers in the
1930s, and demonstrated in telephone exchanges that routinely
suffer direct lightning strikes without damage today. A
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
ground (such as with plug-in protectors) means no effective
protection. So myth purveyors invent household appliance
surges. Surges that daily destroy which unprotected
electronics?

David Maynard wrote:
> w_tom wrote:
>> Assumed was that phone line appliances are damaged by a
>> wave, entering on phone line, then crashing onto that
>> appliance like it was a beach. Oceans waves and electrical
>> transients are completely different. First an electrical
>> transient current flow through everything in a complete path
>> from cloud to ground. Then item or items in that path are
>> damaged. Essential incoming and outgoing paths are required
>> to have damage.
>>
>> As demonstrated in the previous post, what is a most common
>> source of damage to phone line appliances? AC electric.
>> Why? Phone line provides the good outgoing path to earth.
>> Highest wires on utility pole provide a best incoming path. A
>> complete circuit - incoming and outgoing paths - exist for
>> damage to occur. Myths instead claim a modem is damaged when
>> only an incoming path - phone line - exists.
>>
>> Meanwhile, a protector damaged by a transient provides
>> ineffective protection. Even modems have internal
>> protection. Sometimes a transient too small to overwhelm
>> protection inside a modem with damage the grossly undersized
>> and adjacent protector. Undersized so that you will *assume*
>> the protector provided protection.
>
> Complete and utter nonsense.
> ...
>
> More nonsense. "You" don't "provide" squat for the telco protector.
> ...
>
> Still waiting for you to explain how aircraft get that '10 foot' earth cable.
> ...
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 10, 2005 5:48:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> Lurkers are warned how to identify those who don't know; who
> promote myths.

You're one of the biggest hucksters I've seen in a long time.

> Look at previous David Maynard posts.

Yes, please do. The one where I explained how whole house and local
protectors work, and the benefits/limitations of each, will help dispel the
nonsense, and slander, w_tom routinely posts.

> For
> example, he claims surges are created by household
> appliances.

So you now claim a swimming pool pump motor is a "household appliance."

> This was a myth promoted by plug-in manufacturers
> when desperately seeking something to protect from.

Another of your inventions.

> For if
> appliances create such destructive transients, then appliances
> are destroying themselves.

I guess you never heard of equipment failure or a fault condition.

> For if appliances create such
> destructive transients, then you are trooping weekly to the
> hardware store to replace destroyed smoke detectors, bathroom
> and kitchen GFCIs, your clock radio, dimmer switches, furnace
> controls, etc. For if appliances create such destructive
> transients, then you are replacing every plug-in protector
> weekly or monthly. Their MOVs are not sized nor intended for
> numerous and daily transients.

Babble derived from nonsense.

> These are facts and numbers David routinely forgets because
> he was caught and exposed in previous discussions with
> insufficient technical knowledge. For him, posting such myths
> are a form of revenge.

Notice how w_tom simply posts ad hominems and not a single fact nor does he
ever deal with what's posted but, instead, mischaracterizes and distorts.


> Notice again, he never says why.

A plain lie.

> His responses are simply
> "Complete and utter nonsense", "More nonsense",

I say nonsense when you post nonsense.

> and some
> totally irrelevant baloney about lightning to aircraft.
> Obviously we are discussing Cloud to Ground lightning
> transients, making airborne aircraft totally irrelevant.

Which just shows you have no idea how electronics, or surge protection,
works. The electronic device doesn't know, or care, where the surge 'came
from' or where it's 'going', be it a cloud or 'ground'. All that matters is
the potential it sees.


> He
> posts absurd claims without providing underlying facts or
> numbers. It is an old Radio Moscow propaganda technique. The
> reader will notice which posts provide numbers, professional
> citations, and other information that David Maynard cannot and
> does not challenge.

So, Radio Moscow is where you learned it.

> Which should you believe? Single phrase replies (without any
> numbers) from David Maynard, or well proven concepts of
> protection even defined by the National Institute for
> Standards and Technology (same people who also do the national
> time standard).

Pompous declaration of no substance.

> Lurkers are warned about those who use propaganda rather
> than use science, professional citations, the numbers, and
> even what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

And if you're trying to keep your house from catching fire due to lightning
you might want to use a lightning rod. Unfortunately, a computer isn't a house.

> These are well
> proven facts from GE and Westinghouse science papers in the
> 1930s, and demonstrated in telephone exchanges that routinely
> suffer direct lightning strikes without damage today.

So if you have a 1930's electromechanical relay telephone exchange in your
home read up on it. On the other hand, if you're using a computer...


> A
> protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
> ground (such as with plug-in protectors) means no effective
> protection.

Wrong. And since you've made claims of knowing 'facts' then you explain how
electronics can be damaged if there is no damaging potential across it,
regardless of where 'earth' is.

> So myth purveyors invent household appliance
> surges. Surges that daily destroy which unprotected
> electronics?

No, YOU invented it, as you do the rest.
August 11, 2005 6:22:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

>For example, he claims surges are created by household
>appliances. This was a myth promoted by plug-in manufacturers
>when desperately seeking something to protect from. For if
>appliances create such destructive transients, then appliances
>are destroying themselves. For if appliances create such
>destructive transients, then you are trooping weekly to the
>hardware store to replace destroyed smoke detectors, bathroom
>and kitchen GFCIs, your clock radio, dimmer switches, furnace
>controls, etc.

My 1970s PC with a linear power supply made with a 723 regulator was
damaged by a power line transient from the Teletype KSR33 connected to
it, and the transient did come through the power cable because the data
lines were optically isolated. Before the destructiion happened, the
computer would regularly crash whenever the Teletype's motor turned
off. The solution was a plug-in L-C surge protector.

I'm sure appliances can be made to destroy themselves from their own
transients because poorly designed digital boards were known to do that
from a lack of adequate bypass capacitance to keep their chips from
generating overvoltage spikes every time their gates switched.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 19, 2005 2:47:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

There is no L-C surge protector. L-C 'filters' have been
standard on power supplies even in the 1970s. An L-C filter
that would be standard in electronic power supplies back then
is even all but required by the FCC today. Just another in a
long list of reasons why 'household appliances causing
electronics damage' is a myth - promoted by those who also
promote those grossly overpriced and undersized, ineffective,
plug-in surge protectors. They must invent a disease when
none exists.

If a power supply was damaged by the KSR33 Teletype (which
were popular in the 1960s), then a power supply was defective
when it was designed. Any electronics inside the building
destroyed by other household appliances does not need a surge
protector. It must contain sufficient internal protection as
even required by industry standards. The solution starts by
replacing a bean counter type human with a product oriented
human. IOW the problem is really a human who somehow knows -
facts and reality be damned.

If damage occurs from a household appliance, then a computer
grade UPS in battery backup mode would also damage that
electronics. What can a computer grade UPS output as a 120
VAC 'modified sine wave'? Two 200 volt square waves with a
270 volt spike between those square waves. If that pathetic
power supply was damaged by the KSR33, then that power supply
would also be destroyed by this computer grade UPS. Just
another in a long list of reasons why 'household appliances
causing electronics damage' is a myth. The power supply
damaged by a KSR33 was defective when purchased. Shame on
that human who was the reason for failure.

rantonrave@mail.com wrote:
> My 1970s PC with a linear power supply made with a 723 regulator was
> damaged by a power line transient from the Teletype KSR33 connected to
> it, and the transient did come through the power cable because the data
> lines were optically isolated. Before the destructiion happened, the
> computer would regularly crash whenever the Teletype's motor turned
> off. The solution was a plug-in L-C surge protector.
>
> I'm sure appliances can be made to destroy themselves from their own
> transients because poorly designed digital boards were known to do that
> from a lack of adequate bypass capacitance to keep their chips from
> generating overvoltage spikes every time their gates switched.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 20, 2005 5:18:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> There is no L-C surge protector. L-C 'filters' have been
> standard on power supplies even in the 1970s. An L-C filter
> that would be standard in electronic power supplies back then
> is even all but required by the FCC today.

Wrong. The typical home back then wasn't filled with SMPS, computers, video
games, wireless remotes, cordless phones, cell phones, TVs and radios every
5 feet, and wireless network devices so what constituted a reasonable
filter then was not the same as today's requirements.

> Just another in a
> long list of reasons why 'household appliances causing
> electronics damage' is a myth - promoted by those who also
> promote those grossly overpriced and undersized, ineffective,
> plug-in surge protectors. They must invent a disease when
> none exists.

w_tom is apparently unaware of appliances with inductive devices, like
motors and relays, and never heard of equipment faults or any other surge
producing mechanism.


> If a power supply was damaged by the KSR33 Teletype (which
> were popular in the 1960s), then a power supply was defective
> when it was designed. Any electronics inside the building
> destroyed by other household appliances does not need a surge
> protector. It must contain sufficient internal protection as
> even required by industry standards. The solution starts by
> replacing a bean counter type human with a product oriented
> human. IOW the problem is really a human who somehow knows -
> facts and reality be damned.

Nonsense

> If damage occurs from a household appliance, then a computer
> grade UPS in battery backup mode would also damage that
> electronics.

More nonsense.

> What can a computer grade UPS output as a 120
> VAC 'modified sine wave'? Two 200 volt square waves with a
> 270 volt spike between those square waves. If that pathetic
> power supply was damaged by the KSR33, then that power supply
> would also be destroyed by this computer grade UPS.

Actually, unrelated to both the KSR33 and the voltage nonsense (no surprise
there), a UPS of that type, although not as bad as a straight square wave,
*can* damage equipment, depending on what kind of power supply it has.
SMPS, the type they expect to be connected to it, are usually OK because
the first thing an SMPS does is rectify the incoming AC to DC so the non
sinusoidal waveform is not so significant, although it can stress the DC
filter capacitors and cause premature failure.

Traditional linear power supplies, like with a 60Hz transformer (common
wall wart being an example), can overheat from core saturation or simply
not operate properly because the design depends on a 60Hz (maybe 50Hz for
'international' compatibility) sinusoidal waveform. Devices employing
Triacs or SCRs, like many laser printers, can fail due to square wave
induced current surges. Other things, like fans, fluorescent lights, and
amplifiers, might 'buzz'.

And a 120V modified sine wave would be about 145V-165V peak (120VAC
sinusoidal is 170V [rounded] peak).

> Just
> another in a long list of reasons why 'household appliances
> causing electronics damage' is a myth.

No, it's another reason why you should read up on transformers, motors, and
inductive devices in general.

> The power supply
> damaged by a KSR33 was defective when purchased. Shame on
> that human who was the reason for failure.

Nonsense

>
> rantonrave@mail.com wrote:
>
>>My 1970s PC with a linear power supply made with a 723 regulator was
>>damaged by a power line transient from the Teletype KSR33 connected to
>>it, and the transient did come through the power cable because the data
>>lines were optically isolated. Before the destructiion happened, the
>>computer would regularly crash whenever the Teletype's motor turned
>>off. The solution was a plug-in L-C surge protector.
>>
>>I'm sure appliances can be made to destroy themselves from their own
>>transients because poorly designed digital boards were known to do that
>>from a lack of adequate bypass capacitance to keep their chips from
>>generating overvoltage spikes every time their gates switched.
!