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Micro ATX desktop cases

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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 17, 2005 3:38:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

I'm trying to find a Micro ATX case of an old PII system that I plan on
turning into a DOS/Win98 PC for old games that just won't run on my
AMD64 machine. I really don't have room for mini tower case on my
desk. I can make room for a desktop case though. The PC will have a
full-size AWE32 ISA card handling sound and music while in DOS.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be very many Micro ATX desktop
cases that have the clearance from front to back for a 12" ISA board.
The mainboard itself is about 9.5"x8.5"

Also, don't most Micro ATX cases come with a smaller power supply?
About how many watts would this PC require? Here's the specs:

333MHz PII
128 MB PC100
integrated ATI Rage AGP video
8GB HD
CD-ROM

Also what about cooling? The PII has a huge fanless Aluminum heatsink.
Other than concerns about space, the CPU should be OK, but I don't think
that the little fan in the PSU is going to give enough airflow.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 17, 2005 8:04:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

I think I found an mATX desktop case that might fit, but it only has a
150w PSU. Is that enough for this PC?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 18, 2005 4:04:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> I'm trying to find a Micro ATX case of an old PII system that I plan
> on turning into a DOS/Win98 PC for old games that just won't run on my
> AMD64 machine. I really don't have room for mini tower case on my
> desk. I can make room for a desktop case though. The PC will have a
> full-size AWE32 ISA card handling sound and music while in DOS.
> Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be very many Micro ATX desktop
> cases that have the clearance from front to back for a 12" ISA board.
> The mainboard itself is about 9.5"x8.5"
>
> Also, don't most Micro ATX cases come with a smaller power supply?
> About how many watts would this PC require? Here's the specs:
>
> 333MHz PII
> 128 MB PC100
> integrated ATI Rage AGP video
> 8GB HD
> CD-ROM
>
> Also what about cooling? The PII has a huge fanless Aluminum
> heatsink. Other than concerns about space, the CPU should be OK, but
> I don't think that the little fan in the PSU is going to give enough
> airflow.

Oh well, never mind. Someone had a junked PC with a mATX tower case so
he just gave me the case.
August 18, 2005 4:14:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Based on the specs, I'd say it consumes about 40 watts.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:04:56 GMT, Ed Coolidge
<semi_DELETE_THIS_charm@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Ed Coolidge wrote:
>
>I think I found an mATX desktop case that might fit, but it only has a
>150w PSU. Is that enough for this PC?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 18, 2005 4:33:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Andy wrote:

>Based on the specs, I'd say it consumes about 40 watts.
>
Thanks
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 19, 2005 1:20:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> Ed Coolidge wrote:
>
> I think I found an mATX desktop case that might fit, but it only has a
> 150w PSU. Is that enough for this PC?

yes
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 19, 2005 1:23:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> Ed Coolidge wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to find a Micro ATX case of an old PII system that I plan
>> on turning into a DOS/Win98 PC for old games that just won't run on my
>> AMD64 machine. I really don't have room for mini tower case on my
>> desk. I can make room for a desktop case though. The PC will have a
>> full-size AWE32 ISA card handling sound and music while in DOS.
>> Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be very many Micro ATX desktop
>> cases that have the clearance from front to back for a 12" ISA board.
>> The mainboard itself is about 9.5"x8.5"
>>
>> Also, don't most Micro ATX cases come with a smaller power supply?
>> About how many watts would this PC require? Here's the specs:
>>
>> 333MHz PII
>> 128 MB PC100
>> integrated ATI Rage AGP video
>> 8GB HD
>> CD-ROM
>>
>> Also what about cooling? The PII has a huge fanless Aluminum
>> heatsink. Other than concerns about space, the CPU should be OK, but
>> I don't think that the little fan in the PSU is going to give enough
>> airflow.
>
>
> Oh well, never mind. Someone had a junked PC with a mATX tower case so
> he just gave me the case.

I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that sound
like it might have come out of a Dell machine.

At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear fan
right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 19, 2005 4:36:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that
> sound like it might have come out of a Dell machine.
>
> At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
> heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear
> fan right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.

Fanless is not a misnomer. The heatsink does not have a fan. It
obviously doesn't imply anything about the case it's in. BTW, it could
have been from a Dell. They had a duct that clipped over the case or
PSU fan to draw the hot air off the CPU.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 20, 2005 1:05:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that
>> sound like it might have come out of a Dell machine.
>>
>> At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
>> heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear
>> fan right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.
>
>
> Fanless is not a misnomer. The heatsink does not have a fan.

I didn't mean to suggest you had called it the wrong thing. I mean the term
itself is a bit of a misnomer in that it implies no fan at all is needed
when *something* has to move air across it. It isn't a pure natural
convection heatsink.

> It
> obviously doesn't imply anything about the case it's in.

And that's the problem.

> BTW, it could
> have been from a Dell. They had a duct that clipped over the case or
> PSU fan to draw the hot air off the CPU.

Yeah. The Dell P-II 350 I had used a separate rear exhaust fan, like I
described, with a duct.

That's my point about "a bit of a misnomer." Just how significant is it to
the heatsink being 'fanless' that the fan's mounting bolts go through the
rear case wall rather than the heatsink?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 20, 2005 5:11:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> I didn't mean to suggest you had called it the wrong thing. I mean the
> term itself is a bit of a misnomer in that it implies no fan at all is
> needed when *something* has to move air across it. It isn't a pure
> natural convection heatsink.

No, it doesn't imply that the CPU requires no air flow, it simply means
that the heatsink has no fan. Technically, the heatsink only refers to
the metal part that interfaces with the CPU. Since most modern heatsinks
can't provide adequate cooling without an attached fan, people tend to
treat them as a single unit. It's to the point that if the heatsink is
designed to cool without an attached fan that one has to call it
"fanless".

> Yeah. The Dell P-II 350 I had used a separate rear exhaust fan, like I
> described, with a duct.
>
> That's my point about "a bit of a misnomer." Just how significant is
> it to the heatsink being 'fanless' that the fan's mounting bolts go
> through the rear case wall rather than the heatsink?

The difference is that the heatsink fan only has one job, and that is to
cool the CPU. The case or PSU fan has the task of cooling the entire
case. Even in the case of the mentioned Dell, the case fan was
"modified" to provide extra air flow over the CPU, but it's primary task
is still to cool the case not just the CPU.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 20, 2005 5:11:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> I didn't mean to suggest you had called it the wrong thing. I mean the
>> term itself is a bit of a misnomer in that it implies no fan at all is
>> needed when *something* has to move air across it. It isn't a pure
>> natural convection heatsink.
>
>
> No, it doesn't imply that the CPU requires no air flow, it simply means
> that the heatsink has no fan.

You may think so but that isn't what a 'normal' person is going to think
when confronted with the term "fanless."

If you see a "fanless PSU' advertised do you expect it to have, or need,
fans somewhere? Do you expect a "fanless PC" to have, or need, fans somewhere?

So what the heck is the problem with making people aware that a "fanless
heatsink" doesn't necessarily mean the thing will work properly without a
fan SOMEWHERE?

Not to mention I said only "a bit of" a misnomer, not that it's 'wrong'.

> Technically, the heatsink only refers to
> the metal part that interfaces with the CPU. Since most modern heatsinks
> can't provide adequate cooling without an attached fan, people tend to
> treat them as a single unit. It's to the point that if the heatsink is
> designed to cool without an attached fan that one has to call it "fanless".
>
>> Yeah. The Dell P-II 350 I had used a separate rear exhaust fan, like I
>> described, with a duct.
>>
>> That's my point about "a bit of a misnomer." Just how significant is
>> it to the heatsink being 'fanless' that the fan's mounting bolts go
>> through the rear case wall rather than the heatsink?
>
>
> The difference is that the heatsink fan only has one job, and that is to
> cool the CPU.

I am aware of what the "difference" is but I asked what the "significance"
was. And to me the "significance" relates to needing airflow over the
heatsink by some means.

I suppose you'd call the Zalman Flower "fanless" since the fan isn't
attached to the heatsink but is mounted on a chassis bar blowing down on it.

> The case or PSU fan has the task of cooling the entire
> case. Even in the case of the mentioned Dell, the case fan was
> "modified" to provide extra air flow over the CPU, but it's primary task
> is still to cool the case not just the CPU.

I don't know how you determine that one or the other is "primary" when
they're both essential to the system operating.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 21, 2005 5:30:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> You may think so but that isn't what a 'normal' person is going to
> think when confronted with the term "fanless."

Just because someone may think it doesn't make it true. BTW, a "normal
person" by your definition would have no business probing a single
finger inside a PC case. Well, at least that much we can agree on.

> If you see a "fanless PSU' advertised do you expect it to have, or
> need, fans somewhere? Do you expect a "fanless PC" to have, or need,
> fans somewhere?

They may not advertise it, but a fanless PSU still requires air flow
inside the case. However, a fanless PC by definition must be able to
run without a fan or else it wouldn't be fanless would it? For
instance, my old SX-64 was a fanless PC. (Still works BTW). I have
heard of someone trying to use a fanless PSU in a water cooled PC, which
obviously didn't work.

> So what the heck is the problem with making people aware that a
> "fanless heatsink" doesn't necessarily mean the thing will work
> properly without a fan SOMEWHERE?

I never said that it did. Besides, what does the opinion of a "normal"
person have to do with my situation anyway? If I was looking for that I
wouldn't have posted here.

> I suppose you'd call the Zalman Flower "fanless" since the fan isn't
> attached to the heatsink but is mounted on a chassis bar blowing down
> on it.

That's somewhat of a different case. Either way, the heatsink does have
a fan for which it's only purpose is to provide air flow over it.

> I don't know how you determine that one or the other is "primary" when
> they're both essential to the system operating.

OK, if the fan in the mentioned Dell was indeed the heatsink fan, then
attaching it directly to the heatsink instead of the back of the case
would effect nothing else inside the case. That obviously isn't true,
because unlike the Flower's fan, the case fan in the Dell has to provide
air flow to the entire case. If the duct was somehow designed such that
it didn't provide air flow to anything other than the heatsink, then I
guess you could consider it to be the heatsink fan.

To make my opinion clear on this matter once and for all, a heatsink fan
is a fan that is designed to only provide air flow over the heatsink. A
fanless heatsink is one that is designed such that it can function
properly without a heatsink fan. And yes, a fanless heatsink does
require air flow, only that the air flow is provided by something other
than a heatsink fan.


Anyways, I don't think the case I have is properly ventilated. That has
nothing to do with the heatsink, but the case itself. I would at least
put another fan in it if the idiot that designed it didn't put the hard
drive mount flat against the front of the case where a fan should have
gone. It's no wonder that NEC doesn't build PCs anymore. Of course,
"free" typically means free of cost, not free of problems.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 22, 2005 12:56:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> You may think so but that isn't what a 'normal' person is going to
>> think when confronted with the term "fanless."
>
>
> Just because someone may think it doesn't make it true. BTW, a "normal
> person" by your definition would have no business probing a single
> finger inside a PC case. Well, at least that much we can agree on.
>
>> If you see a "fanless PSU' advertised do you expect it to have, or
>> need, fans somewhere? Do you expect a "fanless PC" to have, or need,
>> fans somewhere?
>
>
> They may not advertise it, but a fanless PSU still requires air flow
> inside the case.

Not for the PSU. It's the other things inside that no longer have a PSU fan
drawing air through the case, unless the whole thing is designed to be fanless.

> However, a fanless PC by definition must be able to
> run without a fan or else it wouldn't be fanless would it? For
> instance, my old SX-64 was a fanless PC. (Still works BTW). I have
> heard of someone trying to use a fanless PSU in a water cooled PC, which
> obviously didn't work.
>
>> So what the heck is the problem with making people aware that a
>> "fanless heatsink" doesn't necessarily mean the thing will work
>> properly without a fan SOMEWHERE?
>
>
> I never said that it did. Besides, what does the opinion of a "normal"
> person have to do with my situation anyway? If I was looking for that I
> wouldn't have posted here.
>
>> I suppose you'd call the Zalman Flower "fanless" since the fan isn't
>> attached to the heatsink but is mounted on a chassis bar blowing down
>> on it.
>
>
> That's somewhat of a different case. Either way, the heatsink does have
> a fan for which it's only purpose is to provide air flow over it.
>
>> I don't know how you determine that one or the other is "primary" when
>> they're both essential to the system operating.
>
>
> OK, if the fan in the mentioned Dell was indeed the heatsink fan, then
> attaching it directly to the heatsink instead of the back of the case
> would effect nothing else inside the case. That obviously isn't true,
> because unlike the Flower's fan, the case fan in the Dell has to provide
> air flow to the entire case. If the duct was somehow designed such that
> it didn't provide air flow to anything other than the heatsink, then I
> guess you could consider it to be the heatsink fan.
> To make my opinion clear on this matter once and for all, a heatsink fan
> is a fan that is designed to only provide air flow over the heatsink. A
> fanless heatsink is one that is designed such that it can function
> properly without a heatsink fan. And yes, a fanless heatsink does
> require air flow, only that the air flow is provided by something other
> than a heatsink fan.

I'm not going to bother with that up there as it's mostly you arguing word
games. Just as here, I didn't say anything about the Dell fan being a
'heatsink fan' and, no, "fanless" does not mean that something must provide
airflow as natural convection 'fanless' heatsinks work just fine with no
'fan' provided by something else.

All I said was your 'fanless' heatsink was likely to have problems without
a fan somewhere and, for some reason, you decided to argue wording.


> Anyways, I don't think the case I have is properly ventilated.

That is why I warned you about the 'fanless' heatsink.

> That has
> nothing to do with the heatsink,

Of course not. The CPU is nice and cool, right?

> but the case itself. I would at least
> put another fan in it if the idiot that designed it didn't put the hard
> drive mount flat against the front of the case where a fan should have
> gone.

I guess they didn't design it for 'fanless' heatsinks.

> It's no wonder that NEC doesn't build PCs anymore. Of course,
> "free" typically means free of cost, not free of problems.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 22, 2005 5:10:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> All I said was your 'fanless' heatsink was likely to have problems
> without a fan somewhere and, for some reason, you decided to argue
> wording.

Again, I never said that a fanless heatsink wouldn't require air flow to
work properly. BTW, wasn't it YOU who started this?

> That is why I warned you about the 'fanless' heatsink.
> Of course not. The CPU is nice and cool, right?

I don't know why I bother because you never get the point! Putting a
fan on the heatsink isn't going to improve the case ventilation. Even
heatsinks with fans require a properly ventilated case.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 23, 2005 1:21:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> All I said was your 'fanless' heatsink was likely to have problems
>> without a fan somewhere and, for some reason, you decided to argue
>> wording.
>
>
> Again, I never said that a fanless heatsink wouldn't require air flow to
> work properly. BTW, wasn't it YOU who started this?

Nope. I simply said------

I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that sound
like it might have come out of a Dell machine.

At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear fan
right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.

--------------------------

Point was you might need to take that into account, if you hadn't already,
and make sure you have sufficient airflow around the heatsink since you're
sticking it a case not made for it.

You then decided to argue.


>> That is why I warned you about the 'fanless' heatsink.
>> Of course not. The CPU is nice and cool, right?
>
>
> I don't know why I bother because you never get the point!

I already 'got' the point as I made it. It's you who can't seem to figure
it out because you're too busy arguing semantics.

> Putting a
> fan on the heatsink isn't going to improve the case ventilation.

I never said one thing about "putting a fan on the heatsink." I simply said
that your "fanless heatsink" needs airflow, and told you how Dell
accomplished it, but left the re-engineering of your 'fanless
heatsink'/generic case combo up to you.

It was just a heads up that you might have problems putting a motherboard
that's part of a 'whole system' engineered thermal solution into a generic
case and, from what you say, it seems you are.


> Even
> heatsinks with fans require a properly ventilated case.

The case needs proper ventilation, yes, but that's a different matter than
airflow over a 'fanless' heatsink and generic case ventilation will not
necessarily ensure sufficient airflow over one. That's why the ones with
fans have fans and why the Dell case is specially designed with a large
rear exhaust fan ducted over the 'fanless heatsink' so that most, if not
all, of the air flows over it. In addition to cooling the processor that
configuration has a couple of other advantages. For one, the warm CPU air
is directly expelled so it doesn't contribute to case warming and, second,
since it draws the CPU cooling air from the case interior it serves double
duty as case ventilation.

But just blowing a lot of air through a case, in the 'traditional' generic
case manner, will not necessarily cool a 'fanless heatsink' because it's
undirected so the airflow at any arbitrary interior location (the 'fanless
heatsink' being one) is only a small fraction of the total.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 23, 2005 5:16:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> Point was you might need to take that into account, if you hadn't
> already, and make sure you have sufficient airflow around the heatsink
> since you're sticking it a case not made for it.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. I've already stated that I'm concerned
about airflow within the case.

> I never said one thing about "putting a fan on the heatsink." I simply
> said that your "fanless heatsink" needs airflow, and told you how Dell
> accomplished it, but left the re-engineering of your 'fanless
> heatsink'/generic case combo up to you.
>
> It was just a heads up that you might have problems putting a
> motherboard that's part of a 'whole system' engineered thermal
> solution into a generic case and, from what you say, it seems you are.

I was just stating that even another heatsink with a fan isn't going to
improve the situation very much. Anyway, I already said that I'm
familiar with the Dell systems you referred too. Unfortunately, I don't
have a Dell case just laying around. I bought the CPU at a used parts
shop for $5. As for the case I have, it doesn't have any way to add
exhaust to the rear, just the PSU itself which does does pull air off
the heatsink. I figured that if I move the hard drive to one of the 5
1/4 bays (using an adapter of course) I could at least mount a fan to
the front. No, it's not a custom engineered solution, but that's how it
was running in the old case it was in for over 2 years when my mom had
it. At least in this case the front fan would blow directly toward the
heatsink.

> The case needs proper ventilation, yes, but that's a different matter
> than airflow over a 'fanless' heatsink and generic case ventilation
> will not necessarily ensure sufficient airflow over one. That's why
> the ones with fans have fans and why the Dell case is specially
> designed with a large rear exhaust fan ducted over the 'fanless
> heatsink' so that most, if not all, of the air flows over it. In
> addition to cooling the processor that configuration has a couple of
> other advantages. For one, the warm CPU air is directly expelled so it
> doesn't contribute to case warming and, second, since it draws the CPU
> cooling air from the case interior it serves double duty as case
> ventilation.
>
> But just blowing a lot of air through a case, in the 'traditional'
> generic case manner, will not necessarily cool a 'fanless heatsink'
> because it's undirected so the airflow at any arbitrary interior
> location (the 'fanless heatsink' being one) is only a small fraction
> of the total.

Yes, I'm well aware of the Dell case with the fan duct. The amount of
air that it directs over the heatsink is debatable (yes I took thermal
dynamics in college and no I'm NOT going to debate it!). While it may
be crucial for a high end PIII that does product a good deal of heat,
whether the duct is an absolute necessity for a PII is another matter.
Either way I don't have a duct so I'll just have to make do with what I
have. It may not be an optimal solution, but I'm sure that it will work.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 23, 2005 7:43:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> Point was you might need to take that into account, if you hadn't
>> already, and make sure you have sufficient airflow around the heatsink
>> since you're sticking it a case not made for it.
>
>
> Yes, I'm quite aware of that. I've already stated that I'm concerned
> about airflow within the case.

The problem I see, and what I explained below, is you keep equating case
airflow with cooling the 'fanless heatsink'.

>
>> I never said one thing about "putting a fan on the heatsink." I simply
>> said that your "fanless heatsink" needs airflow, and told you how Dell
>> accomplished it, but left the re-engineering of your 'fanless
>> heatsink'/generic case combo up to you.
>>
>> It was just a heads up that you might have problems putting a
>> motherboard that's part of a 'whole system' engineered thermal
>> solution into a generic case and, from what you say, it seems you are.
>
>
> I was just stating that even another heatsink with a fan isn't going to
> improve the situation very much.

How did you determine that?

Fact is, that's what works in the typical 'generic' thermal solution,
including the stock Intel heatsink, and tons of them were made that way,
often with no case fan other than the PSU and other times with an added
front. Generics didn't bother much with rear case fan mounting till the hot
to trot AMD slot Athlons.

Dell did it to make the system quiet since a honker, slow RPM, rear case
fan ducted over the heatsink is quieter than a 60mm screamer mounted
directly on it and you can't mount an 80mm or 90mm fan on a slot cart.

Compaq also did ducted 'fanless' heatsinks and you can barely tell an AP550
is even on.

But the point is, neither did it by just blowing undirected air through the
case and I think you're barking up the wrong tree by presuming you can
solve it that way.

> Anyway, I already said that I'm
> familiar with the Dell systems you referred too. Unfortunately, I don't
> have a Dell case just laying around. I bought the CPU at a used parts
> shop for $5. As for the case I have, it doesn't have any way to add
> exhaust to the rear, just the PSU itself which does does pull air off
> the heatsink. I figured that if I move the hard drive to one of the 5
> 1/4 bays (using an adapter of course) I could at least mount a fan to
> the front. No, it's not a custom engineered solution, but that's how it
> was running in the old case it was in for over 2 years when my mom had
> it. At least in this case the front fan would blow directly toward the
> heatsink.

Might work if it's close enough but the airflow is dissipated rather quickly.

Cardboard is cheap and easy to work. Make your own duct.

Or mount a fan near it ala a zalman flower.

>> The case needs proper ventilation, yes, but that's a different matter
>> than airflow over a 'fanless' heatsink and generic case ventilation
>> will not necessarily ensure sufficient airflow over one. That's why
>> the ones with fans have fans and why the Dell case is specially
>> designed with a large rear exhaust fan ducted over the 'fanless
>> heatsink' so that most, if not all, of the air flows over it. In
>> addition to cooling the processor that configuration has a couple of
>> other advantages. For one, the warm CPU air is directly expelled so it
>> doesn't contribute to case warming and, second, since it draws the CPU
>> cooling air from the case interior it serves double duty as case
>> ventilation.
>>
>> But just blowing a lot of air through a case, in the 'traditional'
>> generic case manner, will not necessarily cool a 'fanless heatsink'
>> because it's undirected so the airflow at any arbitrary interior
>> location (the 'fanless heatsink' being one) is only a small fraction
>> of the total.
>
>
> Yes, I'm well aware of the Dell case with the fan duct. The amount of
> air that it directs over the heatsink is debatable (yes I took thermal
> dynamics in college and no I'm NOT going to debate it!). While it may
> be crucial for a high end PIII that does product a good deal of heat,

Thermal power for a P-II 350 is 20.8 watts, exactly the same as a P-III 800.

> whether the duct is an absolute necessity for a PII is another matter.

You think they stuck it in there just for chuckles or for a P-III that
didn't exist when they made the system?

> Either way I don't have a duct so I'll just have to make do with what I
> have. It may not be an optimal solution, but I'm sure that it will work.

Good luck.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 24, 2005 6:53:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> The problem I see, and what I explained below, is you keep equating
> case airflow with cooling the 'fanless heatsink'.

>> I was just stating that even another heatsink with a fan isn't going
>> to improve the situation very much.
>
>
> How did you determine that?
>
> Fact is, that's what works in the typical 'generic' thermal solution,
> including the stock Intel heatsink, and tons of them were made that
> way, often with no case fan other than the PSU and other times with an
> added front. Generics didn't bother much with rear case fan mounting
> till the hot to trot AMD slot Athlons.
>
> Dell did it to make the system quiet since a honker, slow RPM, rear
> case fan ducted over the heatsink is quieter than a 60mm screamer
> mounted directly on it and you can't mount an 80mm or 90mm fan on a
> slot cart.
>
> Compaq also did ducted 'fanless' heatsinks and you can barely tell an
> AP550 is even on.
>
> But the point is, neither did it by just blowing undirected air
> through the case and I think you're barking up the wrong tree by
> presuming you can solve it that way.

When discussing heatsinks there's several points that have to be
considered. One is the amount of heat that the heatsink can dissipate.
Another is ambient temperature. Yes, a fan can be used to to increase
the air flow over the heatsink, but if the case isn't properly
ventilated what you'll really accomplish is raising the ambient case
temperature. Also, increasing air flow through the case in fact can
help reduce the ambient case temperature. Since you're obviously an
expert on heatsinks and case design, I'm sure you already knew that.

> Might work if it's close enough but the airflow is dissipated rather
> quickly.
>
> Cardboard is cheap and easy to work. Make your own duct.
>
> Or mount a fan near it ala a zalman flower.

The problem with a duct in my case is that the most of the air flow from
the PSU is being pulled upward from behind CPU. Dell's fan and duct is
obviously far more efficient. I also tried placing a fan next to the
heatsink, which of course lowered the CPU temps, but it also blew the
air all through the case. That's why case air flow through is necessary
to help push the hot air out to the exhaust. Otherwise you just get
toasty PC parts. If you still don't believe me then just read Intel's
case design guidelines. Many case manufactures seem to ignore that part.

> Thermal power for a P-II 350 is 20.8 watts, exactly the same as a
> P-III 800.

800 MHz is hardly "high end" PIII.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 24, 2005 6:53:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> The problem I see, and what I explained below, is you keep equating
>> case airflow with cooling the 'fanless heatsink'.
>
>
>>> I was just stating that even another heatsink with a fan isn't going
>>> to improve the situation very much.
>>
>>
>>
>> How did you determine that?
>>
>> Fact is, that's what works in the typical 'generic' thermal solution,
>> including the stock Intel heatsink, and tons of them were made that
>> way, often with no case fan other than the PSU and other times with an
>> added front. Generics didn't bother much with rear case fan mounting
>> till the hot to trot AMD slot Athlons.
>>
>> Dell did it to make the system quiet since a honker, slow RPM, rear
>> case fan ducted over the heatsink is quieter than a 60mm screamer
>> mounted directly on it and you can't mount an 80mm or 90mm fan on a
>> slot cart.
>>
>> Compaq also did ducted 'fanless' heatsinks and you can barely tell an
>> AP550 is even on.
>>
>> But the point is, neither did it by just blowing undirected air
>> through the case and I think you're barking up the wrong tree by
>> presuming you can solve it that way.
>
>
> When discussing heatsinks there's several points that have to be
> considered. One is the amount of heat that the heatsink can dissipate.
> Another is ambient temperature. Yes, a fan can be used to to increase
> the air flow over the heatsink, but if the case isn't properly
> ventilated what you'll really accomplish is raising the ambient case
> temperature. Also, increasing air flow through the case in fact can
> help reduce the ambient case temperature. Since you're obviously an
> expert on heatsinks and case design, I'm sure you already knew that.

You're quite right, I did.

You, of course, also knew that "the amount of heat that the heatsink can
dissipate" is dependent on not only ambient but the airflow across it's
dissipating surfaces.

>> Might work if it's close enough but the airflow is dissipated rather
>> quickly.
>>
>> Cardboard is cheap and easy to work. Make your own duct.
>>
>> Or mount a fan near it ala a zalman flower.
>
>
> The problem with a duct in my case is that the most of the air flow from
> the PSU is being pulled upward from behind CPU. Dell's fan and duct is
> obviously far more efficient. I also tried placing a fan next to the
> heatsink, which of course lowered the CPU temps, but it also blew the
> air all through the case.

Of course it did.

> That's why case air flow through is necessary
> to help push the hot air out to the exhaust. Otherwise you just get
> toasty PC parts.

Perhaps. What was case temp?

> If you still don't believe me then just read Intel's
> case design guidelines.

I never said case airflow wasn't important. What I said was that just
shoving air into the case wouldn't necessarily cool the 'fanless heatsink'.

> Many case manufactures seem to ignore that part.

Then how do you explain the millions of them working just fine?

>> Thermal power for a P-II 350 is 20.8 watts, exactly the same as a
>> P-III 800.
>
>
> 800 MHz is hardly "high end" PIII.

It's closer to the top than the bottom but your whole 'retort' is a good
example of what I mean when I say you are more interested in arguing than
in a solution.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 24, 2005 8:18:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> You're quite right, I did.
>
> You, of course, also knew that "the amount of heat that the heatsink
> can dissipate" is dependent on not only ambient but the airflow across
> it's dissipating surfaces.

Well, I'm glad that is finally out of the way. So yes, it can increase
dissipation, but the real question is how much does the heatsink really
require to properly function? Obviously, some heatsinks require the fan
to be in direct contact to meet the CPUs requirements. The heatsink in
question however has far greater surface area then the average fanned
heatsink.

BTW, outside of the context of CPUs there are in fact heatsinks that are
designed to function with no extra source of airflow, i.e. no fans!

> Perhaps. What was case temp?

I was referring to my experiences with other PCs. This particular OEM
mainboard, which is a Gateway if you must know, doesn't seem to have any
temperate sensors. I tried loading Main Board Monitor to check, but it
couldn't detect any sensors. So if it does have any, I don't have any
way to read them. I don't have a probe that can test the temperature
inside the closed case either.

> Then how do you explain the millions of them working just fine?

I was referring to the average cases you would find in the open market,
not the ones that OEMs use. Many of them seem to have very little air
flow through the decorative case front. While they may be merely
adequate for some PCs, others seem to mysteriously crash or fail when
using a cheap case and PSU, especially when overclocking.

> It's closer to the top than the bottom but your whole 'retort' is a
> good example of what I mean when I say you are more interested in
> arguing than in a solution.

I was merely pointing out that you comment wasn't as relevant as you'd
believed.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 24, 2005 11:13:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> You're quite right, I did.
>>
>> You, of course, also knew that "the amount of heat that the heatsink
>> can dissipate" is dependent on not only ambient but the airflow across
>> it's dissipating surfaces.
>
>
> Well, I'm glad that is finally out of the way. So yes, it can increase
> dissipation,

Not just 'can', it does.

> but the real question is how much does the heatsink really
> require to properly function?

And you have a clue: it was originally ducted to a rear case fan. Or so you
told me.

> Obviously, some heatsinks require the fan
> to be in direct contact to meet the CPUs requirements.

Mounting the fan on the heatsink is simply one way of accomplishing it. It
has the virtue of being 'self contained' but it has the vice of being stuck
with a fan no larger than the heatsink form factor will bear.

Ducting has the advantage of being able to use a larger, quieter, fan and
more efficient use of the airflow since it's directed and can serve
multiple purposes when engineered properly.

> The heatsink in
> question however has far greater surface area then the average fanned
> heatsink.

You calculated the surface area?

If it's anything like the one I had it's 'big' but also rather widely
spaced and open to reduce airflow resistance since an axial fan can't draw
much pressure.

None of which matters much because you haven't a clue what the heatsink
'needs' other than it was originally ducted to a rear case fan and common
sense says they didn't do it just for chuckles.

> BTW, outside of the context of CPUs there are in fact heatsinks that are
> designed to function with no extra source of airflow, i.e. no fans!

Of course there are. Don't you remember me talking about "fanless" PSUs and
"fanless" PCs? You know, where I pointed out that 'normal' people kinda
figure that "fanless" means no fans are needed.

Moot, though, since yours is obviously not one of them.

>> Perhaps. What was case temp?
>
>
> I was referring to my experiences with other PCs.

Then it's of little use here.

> This particular OEM
> mainboard, which is a Gateway if you must know, doesn't seem to have any
> temperate sensors. I tried loading Main Board Monitor to check, but it
> couldn't detect any sensors. So if it does have any, I don't have any
> way to read them. I don't have a probe that can test the temperature
> inside the closed case either.

Then you're shooting in the dark. Get a thermometer.

Since you don't have any numbers you have no basis on which to presume the
problem is 'high case temp' and drawing on my experience with a myriad of
computers putting out 20 watts, and more, there's not normally a problem
cooling such a case with simply the PSU fan, or an added front at most,
even with a fanned heatsink dumping the whole 20+ watts directly into the
case, as was the typical situation for most PCs of the era using the stock
Intel heatsink/fan.

>> Then how do you explain the millions of them working just fine?
>
>
> I was referring to the average cases you would find in the open market,

'Average' when and intended for what?

> not the ones that OEMs use. Many of them seem to have very little air
> flow through the decorative case front.

That's because it didn't take much for the typical systems of the day that
were built with 20 watt CPUs.

> While they may be merely
> adequate for some PCs, others seem to mysteriously crash or fail when
> using a cheap case and PSU,

Now you've changed from 'average' to 'cheap' and without identifying what
caused them to "mysteriously crash."

Not to mention I ran many systems with the cheapest case/PSU junk combos
for years with no problems at all. My favorite was a 2.4Vcore, 29.5W,
K6-III 450, mini-tower AT case with no front fan or anything else. Just PSU
and heatsink fans.

> especially when overclocking.

Overclocking is another whole game.

>> It's closer to the top than the bottom but your whole 'retort' is a
>> good example of what I mean when I say you are more interested in
>> arguing than in a solution.
>
> I was merely pointing out that you comment wasn't as relevant as you'd
> believed.

It was a heck of a lot more relevant than you trying to argue that a P-II
350 case/thermal solution was designed for a 'high end P-III' that didn't
even exist when the case was designed.

Like I said, you just want to argue but what you think you're accomplishing
by it I have no idea.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 25, 2005 5:11:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> Mounting the fan on the heatsink is simply one way of accomplishing
> it. It has the virtue of being 'self contained' but it has the vice of
> being stuck with a fan no larger than the heatsink form factor will bear.
>
> Ducting has the advantage of being able to use a larger, quieter, fan
> and more efficient use of the airflow since it's directed and can
> serve multiple purposes when engineered properly.

I never said the duct was a bad idea. I did say that it just doesn't
help in this case, because there is no place to add a rear fan and the a
duct on the PSU would be almost pointless due to its position relative
to the CPU.

> You calculated the surface area?

No, but I do have other PII and PIII slot CPUs with fanned heatsinks.
The fin spacing is about the same, but the length of the fins is at
least double. I really don't think you need a calculator to figure out
which as the larger surface area.

> If it's anything like the one I had it's 'big' but also rather widely
> spaced and open to reduce airflow resistance since an axial fan can't
> draw much pressure.
>
> None of which matters much because you haven't a clue what the
> heatsink 'needs' other than it was originally ducted to a rear case
> fan and common sense says they didn't do it just for chuckles.

And yet somehow you are under the impression that the CPU would fry
without it.

> Of course there are. Don't you remember me talking about "fanless"
> PSUs and "fanless" PCs? You know, where I pointed out that 'normal'
> people kinda figure that "fanless" means no fans are needed.
>
> Moot, though, since yours is obviously not one of them.

*sign* The heatsinks I was referring to have nothing to do with the PSU
or the PC in general. Somehow you seem to be under the impression that
no heatsink could ever operate without some fan blowing on it.

>> I was referring to my experiences with other PCs.
>
> Then it's of little use here.

Not really. Do you throw out all the knowledge of you experiences
simply because you start a new project? I seriously doubt it.

> Then you're shooting in the dark. Get a thermometer.

I have a thermometer, just not one that can take the inside temp while
the case is closed. I usually buy retail mainboards that have sensors
on board.

> 'Average' when and intended for what?

Average as in the average case you would find on the market. They have
been slowly improving though the air flow though.

> That's because it didn't take much for the typical systems of the day
> that were built with 20 watt CPUs.

Yes, but todays CPU can put out about 5x that. I talking about the
cases that are on the market today, not 5 years ago.

> Now you've changed from 'average' to 'cheap' and without identifying
> what caused them to "mysteriously crash."

The market is flooded with cheap cases, so the average would tip in that
direction.

>
> Not to mention I ran many systems with the cheapest case/PSU junk
> combos for years with no problems at all. My favorite was a 2.4Vcore,
> 29.5W, K6-III 450, mini-tower AT case with no front fan or anything
> else. Just PSU and heatsink fans.

Did you measure it's CPU and case temps?

>>
>> I was merely pointing out that you comment wasn't as relevant as
>> you'd believed.
>
> It was a heck of a lot more relevant than you trying to argue that a
> P-II 350 case/thermal solution was designed for a 'high end P-III'
> that didn't even exist when the case was designed.
>
> Like I said, you just want to argue but what you think you're
> accomplishing by it I have no idea.
>
OEM sometimes reuse the same cases and have take into account the
requirements of future components, even if they are not on the market yet.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 12:21:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

<snip of Ed's incessant arguing about nothing>

I never said all heatsinks need fans nor any of the other fantasies you
invented but I tell you what, you just go on and enjoy staring at the case
mumbling to yourself about ducts with no purpose and heatsinks made for non
existent processors, or whatever other nonsense strikes your fancy, because
I'm finished with you.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 26, 2005 4:33:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> Ed Coolidge wrote:
>
> <snip of Ed's incessant arguing about nothing>
>
> I never said all heatsinks need fans nor any of the other fantasies
> you invented but I tell you what, you just go on and enjoy staring at
> the case mumbling to yourself about ducts with no purpose and
> heatsinks made for non existent processors, or whatever other nonsense
> strikes your fancy, because I'm finished with you.
>
First you start the whole pointless rant about the word "fanless", then
deviate to a "normal" persons concepts of a fanless PC, only to finally
get stuck on the notion that I have to put a duct (which I don't have)
on the rear exhaust fan (which doesn't even exist in my PC case). Now
you accuse me of incessant rambling about pointless fantasies. Thanks
for wasting my time.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 12:11:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> Ed Coolidge wrote:
>>
>> <snip of Ed's incessant arguing about nothing>
>>
>> I never said all heatsinks need fans nor any of the other fantasies
>> you invented but I tell you what, you just go on and enjoy staring at
>> the case mumbling to yourself about ducts with no purpose and
>> heatsinks made for non existent processors, or whatever other nonsense
>> strikes your fancy, because I'm finished with you.
>>
> First you start the whole pointless rant about the word "fanless",

I made no rant whatsoever. I merely said the term "fanless," in that
context, was "a bit of a misnomer" since the supposed 'fanless heatsink'
needs sufficient airflow from a fan somewhere.

I was merely giving you a heads up that taking a 'fanless heatsink' out of
it's engineered 'whole system' thermal solution and simply shoving it into
a typical case was likely to be a problem and guess what, it was.

And you've been trying to argue it isn't a problem, even though you got a
problem, ever since.

> then
> deviate to a "normal" persons concepts of a fanless PC, only to finally
> get stuck on the notion that I have to put a duct (which I don't have)
> on the rear exhaust fan (which doesn't even exist in my PC case).

And not one bit of that is true either but then you're so busy trying to
find something to argue about you've never been able to grasp a single
thing said anyway.

> Now
> you accuse me of incessant rambling about pointless fantasies.

And you haven't stopped.

> Thanks
> for wasting my time.

The waste is entirely one of your own making.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 5:28:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> I made no rant whatsoever. I merely said the term "fanless," in that
> context, was "a bit of a misnomer" since the supposed 'fanless
> heatsink' needs sufficient airflow from a fan somewhere.
>
> I was merely giving you a heads up that taking a 'fanless heatsink'
> out of it's engineered 'whole system' thermal solution and simply
> shoving it into a typical case was likely to be a problem and guess
> what, it was.
>
> And you've been trying to argue it isn't a problem, even though you
> got a problem, ever since.

I never said that there wasn't a problem. I even stated in the opening
post "I don't think that the little fan in the PSU is going to give
enough airflow". The disagreement has been about how to fix the
situation. Again, I never argued that the CPU wasn't from a Dell,
because I really have no idea what it was out off and it does look like
the heatsink I've seen used in some Dell PCs. The problem is that since
my case doesn't have a rear exhaust fan, Dell's solution is fairly
irrelevant. You however been arguing that it's essential. Since it was
working "just fine" for over a year in a generic mid tower case, it
obviously isn't true. I even questioned how much the duct in the Dell
improves the heatsinks performance and you practically flipped. I
however doubt that you've ever tested the CPU temps of the Dell with and
without the duct so any farther discussion about Dell's duct is moot.

Now without ridiculous comments, how about the real problem. The
original concern was that the new case has even less airflow than the
old one. Even though the CPU still seems to be operating within it's
thermal limits, even under full load, I think the current situation
could be improved. Farther investigation into the case design hasn't
proved to be promising. Basically there is no way to add an exhaust or
intake fan to the case without cutting holes. Since the case was free I
would have no problems with that if it wasn't for the fact that I really
don't have any metal cutting tools and purchasing them would be more
than I would care to do for this "cheap" project. The only other
solution that I could think of would be to go the "flower" route and
place another fan closer to the heatsink since it's the largest heat
source anyway. Instead of just blowing the heat from the heatsink all
over the case however, I'm going to direct the air flow from the
heatsink up into the nearby PSU, which is the only viable exhaust point
anyway.

Unless you have anything useful to add, I consider this discussion closed.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 27, 2005 11:18:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> I made no rant whatsoever. I merely said the term "fanless," in that
>> context, was "a bit of a misnomer" since the supposed 'fanless
>> heatsink' needs sufficient airflow from a fan somewhere.
>>
>> I was merely giving you a heads up that taking a 'fanless heatsink'
>> out of it's engineered 'whole system' thermal solution and simply
>> shoving it into a typical case was likely to be a problem and guess
>> what, it was.
>>
>> And you've been trying to argue it isn't a problem, even though you
>> got a problem, ever since.
>
>
> I never said that there wasn't a problem. I even stated in the opening
> post "I don't think that the little fan in the PSU is going to give
> enough airflow".

Which I've been trying to explain to you is part of the problem: laying
everything on 'case ventilation'.

> The disagreement has been about how to fix the
> situation. Again, I never argued that the CPU wasn't from a Dell,
> because I really have no idea what it was out off and it does look like
> the heatsink I've seen used in some Dell PCs. The problem is that since
> my case doesn't have a rear exhaust fan, Dell's solution is fairly
> irrelevant.

It's relevant in that it demonstrates the thing needs airflow as they
didn't duct it to a rear fan for no reason nor did they do it for a
non-existant 'future processor'.

> You however been arguing that it's essential. Since it was
> working "just fine" for over a year in a generic mid tower case, it
> obviously isn't true.

I NEVER said it was 'essential' to have a duct and if you ever paid any
attention to what's said you'd know that as I've given you at least three
possible solutions of which only one involved a duct. And then only because
you said you were going to 'aim' an intake fan at the thing.


> I even questioned how much the duct in the Dell
> improves the heatsinks performance and you practically flipped. I
> however doubt that you've ever tested the CPU temps of the Dell with and
> without the duct so any farther discussion about Dell's duct is moot.

I didn't 'flip'. I just pointed out the obvious, that PC makers don't go to
the effort and expense of designing and installing ducts for no reason yet
that is precisely what you argue they did. Weeee... let's put a duct in for
chuckles.

> Now without ridiculous comments, how about the real problem. The
> original concern was that the new case has even less airflow than the
> old one. Even though the CPU still seems to be operating within it's
> thermal limits, even under full load, I think the current situation
> could be improved.

If it ain't broke then why are you trying to 'fix' it?

> Farther investigation into the case design hasn't
> proved to be promising. Basically there is no way to add an exhaust or
> intake fan to the case without cutting holes. Since the case was free I
> would have no problems with that if it wasn't for the fact that I really
> don't have any metal cutting tools and purchasing them would be more
> than I would care to do for this "cheap" project. The only other
> solution that I could think of would be to go the "flower" route and
> place another fan closer to the heatsink since it's the largest heat
> source anyway.

That's one of the solutions I suggested, even to using the the same Zalman
flower allegory I made.

> Instead of just blowing the heat from the heatsink all
> over the case however, I'm going to direct the air flow from the
> heatsink up into the nearby PSU, which is the only viable exhaust point
> anyway.

Just remember that if you're trying to 'pull' air with a fan it'll pull
from the area of least resistance, with is usually right there at it's rim
unless it's forced, like with a duct or heatsink shroud, to get the air
from someplace else. That's why the Zalman fan blows 'onto' the heatsink
and heatsinks with fans generally blow 'down' onto them. The expelled air
is 'impelled' in that direction and so goes that way, for at least short
bit, but the intake side isn't impelled. It just comes from where ever is
easiest.

> Unless you have anything useful to add, I consider this discussion closed.
>

You could also consider replacing the PSU fan with a more powerful one.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 28, 2005 2:51:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

<snip>more pointless arguing</snip>

Since we agree that in the context of the Dell case, the duct is neither
essential or useless, can we leave it at that?

>> Instead of just blowing the heat from the heatsink all over the case
>> however, I'm going to direct the air flow from the heatsink up into
>> the nearby PSU, which is the only viable exhaust point anyway.
>
>
> Just remember that if you're trying to 'pull' air with a fan it'll
> pull from the area of least resistance, with is usually right there at
> it's rim unless it's forced, like with a duct or heatsink shroud, to
> get the air from someplace else. That's why the Zalman fan blows
> 'onto' the heatsink and heatsinks with fans generally blow 'down' onto
> them. The expelled air is 'impelled' in that direction and so goes
> that way, for at least short bit, but the intake side isn't impelled.
> It just comes from where ever is easiest.
>
>> Unless you have anything useful to add, I consider this discussion
>> closed.
>>
>
> You could also consider replacing the PSU fan with a more powerful one.
>
I have several fans on hand, so I'll see what I can do. BTW, the whole
point is to make the best of a less than ideal situation. For the PC
itself I invested ~$25 in parts, the rest was just stuff I had or got
for free. If in the end it doesn't work I'm not out much.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 28, 2005 10:29:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
> <snip>more pointless arguing</snip>
>
> Since we agree that in the context of the Dell case, the duct is neither
> essential or useless, can we leave it at that?

If your 'summary' were, in fact, correct we'd have agreement but it isn't.


>>> Instead of just blowing the heat from the heatsink all over the case
>>> however, I'm going to direct the air flow from the heatsink up into
>>> the nearby PSU, which is the only viable exhaust point anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just remember that if you're trying to 'pull' air with a fan it'll
>> pull from the area of least resistance, with is usually right there at
>> it's rim unless it's forced, like with a duct or heatsink shroud, to
>> get the air from someplace else. That's why the Zalman fan blows
>> 'onto' the heatsink and heatsinks with fans generally blow 'down' onto
>> them. The expelled air is 'impelled' in that direction and so goes
>> that way, for at least short bit, but the intake side isn't impelled.
>> It just comes from where ever is easiest.
>>
>>> Unless you have anything useful to add, I consider this discussion
>>> closed.
>>>
>>
>> You could also consider replacing the PSU fan with a more powerful one.
>>
> I have several fans on hand, so I'll see what I can do. BTW, the whole
> point is to make the best of a less than ideal situation. For the PC
> itself I invested ~$25 in parts, the rest was just stuff I had or got
> for free. If in the end it doesn't work I'm not out much.

Why don't you post what the case is so I have some idea what it's like?

You're hampered by saying you can't cut holes. I had a super small desktop
mATX case (flex ATX actually) that had a ventilation problem and I put a
90mm fan on it's top side. Took some 'creativity' because the sides were
essentially a welded rectangular tube that the chassis slid into so you
couldn't mount the fan and then slide the chassis in. So I made a 'hook'
probe from a coat hanger, laid the fan (plugged in) on the motherboard in
roughly the right place, slid it into the case and then used the hook to
grab the fan, pull it up to the case wall, and hold it there while I screw
it down. Not exactly a convenient assembly process but it sure solved the
ventilation problem and looked great to boot.

But you have to cut a hole for it, of course.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 3:37:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> If your 'summary' were, in fact, correct we'd have agreement but it
> isn't.

Well, the CPU can run without the duct so it's not essential, but it
surely provides some airflow over the heatsink so it's not useless either.

> Why don't you post what the case is so I have some idea what it's like?

The case is from a NEC Powermate VT. It's basically a really short
tower with removable side panels. It even takes a standard ATX PSU.
The chassis is almost exactly 12" from front to back on the inside, the
same length as my Awe32 which was a bitch to shoehorn into it. The hard
drive unfortunately mounts sideways with the board against the front of
the chassis.

> You're hampered by saying you can't cut holes. I had a super small
> desktop mATX case (flex ATX actually) that had a ventilation problem
> and I put a 90mm fan on it's top side. Took some 'creativity' because
> the sides were essentially a welded rectangular tube that the chassis
> slid into so you couldn't mount the fan and then slide the chassis in.
> So I made a 'hook' probe from a coat hanger, laid the fan (plugged in)
> on the motherboard in roughly the right place, slid it into the case
> and then used the hook to grab the fan, pull it up to the case wall,
> and hold it there while I screw it down. Not exactly a convenient
> assembly process but it sure solved the ventilation problem and looked
> great to boot.
>
> But you have to cut a hole for it, of course.

I don't know about your particular case, but I guess that you could have
made a bracket that bolts to the chassis and holds the fan up to the
hole in the case. Either way, I've always hated those single piece
cases. They're even worse on towers.

My dad as a lot of tools and stuff so I'll just wait until I get the
time head over there and "mod" the case. One of the 120mm fans I have
setting around should be more than enough to settle the airflow issue
once I find the right place to put it.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 30, 2005 11:30:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> If your 'summary' were, in fact, correct we'd have agreement but it
>> isn't.
>
>
> Well, the CPU can run without the duct so it's not essential, but it
> surely provides some airflow over the heatsink so it's not useless either.

I'm not going to argue about it because you want to play word games. Case
in point, I *can* drive my car with only one forward and one reverse gear
working properly so, using your criteria, the others are "not essential."

If, however, the issue at hand is how well the car drives (or how well the
heatsink cools the processor) then saying they're "not essential" is a word
game.


>> Why don't you post what the case is so I have some idea what it's like?
>
>
> The case is from a NEC Powermate VT. It's basically a really short
> tower with removable side panels. It even takes a standard ATX PSU.
> The chassis is almost exactly 12" from front to back on the inside, the
> same length as my Awe32 which was a bitch to shoehorn into it. The hard
> drive unfortunately mounts sideways with the board against the front of
> the chassis.

Sounds like a typical shallow depth micro-tower made by a myriad of
manufacturers.

>
>> You're hampered by saying you can't cut holes. I had a super small
>> desktop mATX case (flex ATX actually) that had a ventilation problem
>> and I put a 90mm fan on it's top side. Took some 'creativity' because
>> the sides were essentially a welded rectangular tube that the chassis
>> slid into so you couldn't mount the fan and then slide the chassis in.
>> So I made a 'hook' probe from a coat hanger, laid the fan (plugged in)
>> on the motherboard in roughly the right place, slid it into the case
>> and then used the hook to grab the fan, pull it up to the case wall,
>> and hold it there while I screw it down. Not exactly a convenient
>> assembly process but it sure solved the ventilation problem and looked
>> great to boot.
>>
>> But you have to cut a hole for it, of course.
>
>
> I don't know about your particular case, but I guess that you could have
> made a bracket that bolts to the chassis and holds the fan up to the
> hole in the case.

I thought about it but there wasn't any good way to mount a bracket.

> Either way, I've always hated those single piece
> cases. They're even worse on towers.

I don't 'like' them either but the purpose behind that case was for
something about the size of a VCR. It fit the bill in that regard but,
unfortunately, the proprietary PSU was a piece of junk that self destructed
twice (and while OFF, no less) for no known reason.


> My dad as a lot of tools and stuff so I'll just wait until I get the
> time head over there and "mod" the case. One of the 120mm fans I have
> setting around should be more than enough to settle the airflow issue
> once I find the right place to put it.

If you're lucky the airflow might even go by the heatsink.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 5:45:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> I don't 'like' them either but the purpose behind that case was for
> something about the size of a VCR. It fit the bill in that regard but,
> unfortunately, the proprietary PSU was a piece of junk that self
> destructed twice (and while OFF, no less) for no known reason.

Sounds like the typical win/lose situation. Find the right case, but
get saddled with a bad PSU.

> If you're lucky the airflow might even go by the heatsink.

I would like to place the fan on the side panel over the heatsink, but
the only location I have for the PC is going to render it useless. The
only other options would be to place it farther way at the front or to
find a way to place it closer to the CPU inside the case.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
August 31, 2005 10:42:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Ed Coolidge wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>> I don't 'like' them either but the purpose behind that case was for
>> something about the size of a VCR. It fit the bill in that regard but,
>> unfortunately, the proprietary PSU was a piece of junk that self
>> destructed twice (and while OFF, no less) for no known reason.
>
>
> Sounds like the typical win/lose situation. Find the right case, but
> get saddled with a bad PSU.

Yep. I was not a happy camper.

>> If you're lucky the airflow might even go by the heatsink.
>
>
> I would like to place the fan on the side panel over the heatsink, but
> the only location I have for the PC is going to render it useless.

Bummer. Because that sounds like the ideal spot.

> The
> only other options would be to place it farther way at the front or to
> find a way to place it closer to the CPU inside the case.
!