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The BIG QuestionS

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  • Graphics
Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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December 15, 2005 1:30:50 PM

Serious Post Only Please...

Ok, my current setup is the A7N8X-Delux with a AMD 2600+ Barton OC @ 400fsb, 2.3ghz plugged in with a R9800XT, 2x512mb RAM, Corsair 2-5-2-2... a pretty good system which I love, but its going out of date, I'm finding it harder to run new games at max settings, but even worse, it sometimes takes me a few good minutes to shift from game to desktop and back again...

So I've decided that I need a new computer upgrade, taking into account the warrenties have run out, and the motherboard happens to be my 3rd replacement along with my 3rd CPU that AMD has kindly upgraded from 2500+ to 2600+...

With great research to my abilities, theres...

New Windows Vista due to be released after the 2nd half of 2006.

DirectX 10

Shader 4.0

If it wasnt for any of these factors clounding my vision, I would happily sit and wait to buy the 7800 GTX Duel... But from past experiance, and rumors, who is the leaders of tomorrows VGA, Ati or Nvidia?

Question 1,
Who is the leader of tomorrow VGA power house?

Question 2,
Is it worth getting the state of the art VGA now, or will it only be able to support DirectX 9.0c and I will be missing out on the DirectX 10 fun?

Question 3,
Does 1mb L2 Cache or 2mb L2 Cache make much diffrence on the AMD X2 considering I will be overclocking it?

Question 4,
If its not worth getting the 7800 GTX Duel, what is worth getting in the mean time so I can get Quake 4 and rivaling games appearing on my screen?

Question 5,
Will my pathetic PC3200 ram (2-5-2-2) 512mb x 2 be pathetically weak on the AMD x2 with FSB of 1066mhz? or is there a possibility to increase the CL to 2.5 and increase the ram frequency to 533mhz?

Question 6,
How long do you think that the N7800 GTX Duel/Top will be outdated?
(In other words, will lack the functions or abilities to performe certain task such as Pixel Shader 4.0 or if OpelGL 3.0 comes out, will it be able to handle it? Or will I lose out on any games that runs with OpelGL 3.0)

Question 7,
Wheres a site as good as tomshardware.com but for games and new game release?


I've decided on the A8N32-Sli, a very good motherboard for future upgrades along side the functions and the AMD x2 3800 with 1mb L2 cache looks very attractive for its price, does anyone object? only missing a VGA now...


Many thanks to the people who could be bothered to read this and especially to the ones who answered....

Wish i was 12 again, could just chose something by what they look like on the box, not all this goble-de-gook on pixel shaders, pipe-lines, onboard memory and all.... mmmmmm...

More about : big questions

December 15, 2005 2:27:51 PM

Question 1,
Who is the leader of tomorrow VGA power house?


Traditionally, there is no clear winner. It will trade off between Ati and Nvidia.

Question 2,
Is it worth getting the state of the art VGA now, or will it only be able to support DirectX 9.0c and I will be missing out on the DirectX 10 fun?


The *only* and *best* time to buy a videocard is when there is a game you can't play properly *right now*
If this is what you're experiencing, and you have the scratch to spare, now is the time to buy. Do not buy for upcoming operating systems or games... they are often delayed by years. And by the time they *are* released, there will be newer, cheaper hardware available for much cheaper.
Take a lesson from all the people who upgraded their videocard to the "new" Radeon 9600 in anticipation of Doom3, which took forever to be released...

Question 3,
Does 1mb L2 Cache or 2mb L2 Cache make much diffrence on the AMD X2 considering I will be overclocking it?


Cache is good as far as processors go. In theory it might limit overclocking a buit because of the extra transistors but I doubt you'd see a difference.

Question 4,
If its not worth getting the 7800 GTX Duel, what is worth getting in the mean time so I can get Quake 4 and rivaling games appearing on my screen?


If you have AGP, for a measly $200 you can get an X800 GTO. For $250 you could probably score an X800XT, even better. Very powerful cards for the price.

Question 5,
Will my pathetic PC3200 ram (2-5-2-2) 512mb x 2 be pathetically weak on the AMD x2 with FSB of 1066mhz? or is there a possibility to increase the CL to 2.5 and increase the ram frequency to 533mhz?


Depends on your RAM, but probably not.
But hold up. I don't think the A8N32-Sli requires 533 Mhz RAM... I think you are confusing the hypertransport speeds with the FSB. They aren't 1/1 linked on Athlon64 platforms. 400 Mhz RAM is fine for the platform.

Question 6,
How long do you think that the N7800 GTX Duel/Top will be outdated?
(In other words, will lack the functions or abilities to performe certain task such as Pixel Shader 4.0 or if OpelGL 3.0 comes out, will it be able to handle it? Or will I lose out on any games that runs with OpelGL 3.0)


Impossible to say. Safe bet that it'sll be usable for at least 2-3 years though, playing the newest titles, with quality options getting turned lower as the years go by.

Question 7,
Wheres a site as good as tomshardware.com but for games and new game release?


I go to gamespy.com

I've decided on the A8N32-Sli, a very good motherboard for future upgrades along side the functions and the AMD x2 3800 with 1mb L2 cache looks very attractive for its price, does anyone object? only missing a VGA now...

My only objection is that dual-core processors have no gaming advantage over single core processors at this time. Games & drivers just don't take advantage of multiple threads. In fact, single core processors will usually work faster than dual-core processors as far as gaming goes, because their clockspeeds are usually higher.

IMO, get a faster single core processor if you're gaming, and get a dual core when you upgrade in a year or two when games beging to take advantage of dual-core processors.

On a side note, multi-graphics card technology (SLI & Crossfire) is a bit overrated. It's an ubertoy for the rich, not really cost-effective for gaming. You're better off with a single 7800 GTX for your gaming dollar, and to use the money you save to upgrade to the next gen earlier. You'll stay on the razor's edge much longer that way.


Many thanks to the people who could be bothered to read this and especially to the ones who answered....

You're welcome. :) 
December 17, 2005 5:27:20 AM

WOW, your a god m8, was real helpful, and taking all those factors into account... the final system is...

A8N32-Sli
My old ram
2 SATA 160gig (Raid 0)
550 Watt Coolermaster
WaterCooled system
AMD 64 (still to be decided, the venice or san diego model type... any ideas?)
Nvidia 7800 GTX (256mb)


leaves plenty of room for future upgrade the the VGA. The cpu, well, as much as i do like to run multiple games (i.e. MMO) im sure the cpu has enough kick to do without duel core. either way, the motherboard leaves plenty of room for some super future upgrades... and the spare parts could always be used to make a 3rd PC...

any ideas on the release on the eVGA black pearl? be well suited for my water cooling needs...

thanks again Cleeve for answering ALL the questions lol...
Related resources
January 7, 2006 12:13:45 AM

From what I heard, San Diego cores are better than Venice but I'm not sure by how much.
January 7, 2006 1:50:50 AM

I think that the SanD chips are basically the same as the Venice except that they have double the cache. The cache does not make nearly the difference that the plus rating would indicate.

For example:

The 3200+ (Venice) is actually a 2GHz chip.
The 3500+ (Venice) is actually 2.2GHz and is correspondingly faster.
The 3700+ (San Diego) is also 2.2GHz but has twice the cache and is not much faster than the 3500+.

The San Diego is from poser mobile!

Don't take my word for it check it out:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/11/21/the_mother_of_al...

I'd be cool with the San Diego if the plus names were more realistic, for example if the 3700+ was instead named the 3550+.
January 7, 2006 12:27:15 PM

Q1

no leader joint winners ati nvidia atm. but i think ati has the a very slight lead atm.

Q2

I would say wait, if vista is coming out this summer wait till the begining of next year or end of this year to upgrade you will get most bang for buck then, you will see a lot of new products from now to then including quad core cpu`s from intel including 45nano sizel, also 65 nano amd chips so wait.

Q3

AMD DO NOT MAKE A X2 with 2mb l2 cach.

X2 3800+ Core name: manchester Freq: 2ghz Cache: L1=128kb L2=512kb
X2 4200+ Core name: manchester Freq: 2.2ghz Cache: L1=128kb L2=512kb
X2 4400+ Core name: toledo Freq: 2.2ghz Cache: L1=128kb L2=1mb
X2 4600+ Core name: manchester Freq: 2.4ghz Cache: L1=128kb L2=512kb
X2 4800+ Core name: toledo Freq: 2.4ghz Cache:L1=128kb L2=1mb


The manchester core can be OC to 2.6mhz core on stock aircooler and still be stable so in theory if you have the x2 3800 and decent ram like XMS4000 corsair you can have it running at x2 4800 speeds or at least the x2 4600 speed.

Cache on these cpu`s only helps to lower the clock rate work done but i am being very vague, as someone else already siad get the toledo core if money is not a question.

But if money is in question get the opteron 144 single core (3000+) 939 socket this chip is a SAN DIEGO core which is the same core as the FX-57, this chip can clock all the way to 2.8+ mhz which is the same as the FX-57 this can be done with a good board and ram like the XMS4000, so you can get a cpu for £100/$150-$200 which can be a FX-57 $1000+ cpu with a big OC.

Question 4.

If you want to upgrade NOW, play everything at max the minimum you should get is the 7800gt.

here is a list lwest first best last:

7800gt
X1800XL
7800GTX
X1800XT
7800GTX 512ram / X1800XT 512ram

Question 5

Your ram is the standard which is needed to run X2 chips, you might be a little confused, but the Ram is 100% ok to run stock speeds.

If you want to OC get better ram.


Question 6

I can take this question 2 ways!

The 7800 power will last 2-3 years playing games at max details at first then decreasing to medium by 1.5 years.

But the features on it will be outdated with in 3 to 6 months as we already know of sm4.0 and DX 10 coming out for vista for the summer.

Its best to wait at least 6months to upgrade, ati are going to release another new card with in the next month or so, this shows the signs of thigs to come.

Question 7

gamespot.com for reviews
gamershell.com for demos reviews etc



As for your choice:

if your doing lots of dvd encoding, editing compressing etc go duel core, or go single core or even the opteron if your going to OC.

the 7800gtx is rock but go for a decent manufacturer which OC the standard card as standard at shippment like XFX extreme versions, it kind of garantees a good OC, i would also recommend the X1800XL and 7800GT for best high end bang for buck grafix card.

As for SLI 2x 7800gtx waste of money unless you have a 24inch LCD moniter. there feature will be outdated and the model will be replaced in 6 months or less.

But i will tell you to wait 6 months for vista to come out, then you will see a ton of new motherboards graffix cards etc to take advantage of new features etc get the point.
January 7, 2006 12:35:20 PM

theres a big difference between the sandiego core and venice.

more cach means lower clock rate which means more work done per clock thats why the sandiego core is clocked lower but has a higher speed reference your example proves this in this case.

The 3200+ (Venice) is actually a 2GHz chip 512kb cache
The 3500+ (Venice) is actually 2.2GHz 512kb cache
The 3700+ (San Diego) is also 2.2GHz but has twice the cache and is not much faster than the 3500+. ???????????????? 1mb cache

as you can see the san diego will OC much higher than a venice core /

a sandiego core is a excelent core, the venice is good but not as good as a sandiego.
January 7, 2006 8:27:40 PM

Quote:

The 3500+ (Venice) is actually 2.2GHz 512kb cache
The 3700+ (San Diego) is also 2.2GHz but has twice the cache and is not much faster than the 3500+. ???????????????? 1mb cache
????, meaning that while the clock speed is the same the SD does not benchmark much faster than the 3500+ Venice.

Overclocking is another matter.
January 7, 2006 8:43:52 PM

Quote:

as you can see the san diego will OC much higher than a venice core /
As I can see where?

Did you look at the CPU charts? Did you see how little good that extra cache does? The SD core 3700+ finishes a 6 minute xvid a whole 3 seconds faster than the 3500+. The difference in expected performance is 5.7 percent based on the plus rating. The actual difference in performance is only 0.8 percent based on xvid encoding time. By rights the 3700+ should be named the 3528+ based on actual enoding performance at factory clock speeds.

Sure the SanDegio is slightly faster and sure the SD is slightly better, I'm not argueing that. I'm saying you will not see the 5.7 percent improvement that the plus name indicates in any benchmark. Also even 5.7 percent is not that big of a deal anyways.
January 8, 2006 9:34:01 AM

Do you only look at tomshardware charts, sure sure its ok for quick reference but you might want to look at other sites or magazine which have made similer charts you may be surprised by what you will see, anyone here should not take the chart your refering to as actual real proof of what you might get because with different system setups etc you will achive different results you should know that!

And erm NO the San Diego core is the best single core amd chip they do.

Also the guy talks about OC, for cheapness thrills the venice is best, but for highend cpu clocks the sandiego is best even if you buy a opteron 144 3000+ (1800mhz) which is a sandiego core it beats a standard venice core 3200 (2000mhz) in most benchmarks and matches it in a few others, how do i know i tested them at work, plus with standard cooling it clocked all the way to 2600mhz+ which is above a amd 4000+ 64bit.

trust me the cache makes a difference with core design.
January 17, 2006 1:31:40 AM

Do you have plan for that 2600 Barton, if not I would be happy to buy it from you. Email me at spontayo@yahoo.com if you're interested.
January 17, 2006 2:38:56 AM

Quote:
Question 1,
Who is the leader of tomorrow VGA power house?


Traditionally, there is no clear winner. It will trade off between Ati and Nvidia.

Question 2,
Is it worth getting the state of the art VGA now, or will it only be able to support DirectX 9.0c and I will be missing out on the DirectX 10 fun?


The *only* and *best* time to buy a videocard is when there is a game you can't play properly *right now*
If this is what you're experiencing, and you have the scratch to spare, now is the time to buy. Do not buy for upcoming operating systems or games... they are often delayed by years. And by the time they *are* released, there will be newer, cheaper hardware available for much cheaper.
Take a lesson from all the people who upgraded their videocard to the "new" Radeon 9600 in anticipation of Doom3, which took forever to be released...

Question 3,
Does 1mb L2 Cache or 2mb L2 Cache make much diffrence on the AMD X2 considering I will be overclocking it?


Cache is good as far as processors go. In theory it might limit overclocking a buit because of the extra transistors but I doubt you'd see a difference.

Question 4,
If its not worth getting the 7800 GTX Duel, what is worth getting in the mean time so I can get Quake 4 and rivaling games appearing on my screen?


If you have AGP, for a measly $200 you can get an X800 GTO. For $250 you could probably score an X800XT, even better. Very powerful cards for the price.

Question 5,
Will my pathetic PC3200 ram (2-5-2-2) 512mb x 2 be pathetically weak on the AMD x2 with FSB of 1066mhz? or is there a possibility to increase the CL to 2.5 and increase the ram frequency to 533mhz?


Depends on your RAM, but probably not.
But hold up. I don't think the A8N32-Sli requires 533 Mhz RAM... I think you are confusing the hypertransport speeds with the FSB. They aren't 1/1 linked on Athlon64 platforms. 400 Mhz RAM is fine for the platform.

Question 6,
How long do you think that the N7800 GTX Duel/Top will be outdated?
(In other words, will lack the functions or abilities to performe certain task such as Pixel Shader 4.0 or if OpelGL 3.0 comes out, will it be able to handle it? Or will I lose out on any games that runs with OpelGL 3.0)


Impossible to say. Safe bet that it'sll be usable for at least 2-3 years though, playing the newest titles, with quality options getting turned lower as the years go by.

Question 7,
Wheres a site as good as tomshardware.com but for games and new game release?


I go to gamespy.com

I've decided on the A8N32-Sli, a very good motherboard for future upgrades along side the functions and the AMD x2 3800 with 1mb L2 cache looks very attractive for its price, does anyone object? only missing a VGA now...

My only objection is that dual-core processors have no gaming advantage over single core processors at this time. Games & drivers just don't take advantage of multiple threads. In fact, single core processors will usually work faster than dual-core processors as far as gaming goes, because their clockspeeds are usually higher.

IMO, get a faster single core processor if you're gaming, and get a dual core when you upgrade in a year or two when games beging to take advantage of dual-core processors.

On a side note, multi-graphics card technology (SLI & Crossfire) is a bit overrated. It's an ubertoy for the rich, not really cost-effective for gaming. You're better off with a single 7800 GTX for your gaming dollar, and to use the money you save to upgrade to the next gen earlier. You'll stay on the razor's edge much longer that way.


Many thanks to the people who could be bothered to read this and especially to the ones who answered....

You're welcome. :) 


How long will the 7800gt will last before it becomes way out dated??? I plan on getting that card. Check out my thread. The title of my thread is "Here are my choices. What do you guys think". I need help to. :twisted:
!