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Navigation woes

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Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:53:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Someone lied to me.

Last night I plotted a simple route. Just one VOR between departure and
destination airports. No wind. How could things possibly go wrong?

After takeoff, I checked my flight log thing on the kneeboard. It said
to fly the 122 radial to the VOR, then to fly something like the 069
radial from it to the destination. It also said that the second leg of
the journey would be 55 km.

So after passing the VOR, I turned to my new heading and decided I'd
admire the scenery and/or annoy ATC for about 45 km, then begin my
descent on final.

When the DME - which, as far as I can tell, was functioning perfectly -
said I was 45 km from the VOR, I realised I couldn't see the airport
ahead of me. I looked around but couldn't locate it, so I finally
decided to check the map (something I try not to do).

I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.

So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
pretty stupid? :) 

Huw

More about : navigation woes

Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:53:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
> have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
> tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
> equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
> time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>
> So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
> pretty stupid? :) 

Which VOR and airports? (so we can play along at home :-)

You could try looking on the Map and see if it matches the flight plan.

Did you watch the Flight Analysis? It might've shed some light on the
situation, too.

Also, if you flew FROM the VOR instead of TO it (or vice versa), you might
have simply flown 45km in the wrong direction!
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 2:43:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Huw,

Any chance of providing the route.

Cheers

Geoff

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Someone lied to me.
>
> Last night I plotted a simple route. Just one VOR between departure and
> destination airports. No wind. How could things possibly go wrong?
>
> After takeoff, I checked my flight log thing on the kneeboard. It said
> to fly the 122 radial to the VOR, then to fly something like the 069
> radial from it to the destination. It also said that the second leg of
> the journey would be 55 km.
>
> So after passing the VOR, I turned to my new heading and decided I'd
> admire the scenery and/or annoy ATC for about 45 km, then begin my
> descent on final.
>
> When the DME - which, as far as I can tell, was functioning perfectly -
> said I was 45 km from the VOR, I realised I couldn't see the airport
> ahead of me. I looked around but couldn't locate it, so I finally
> decided to check the map (something I try not to do).
>
> I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
> have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
> tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
> equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
> time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>
> So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
> pretty stupid? :) 
>
> Huw
Related resources
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 2:49:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Matt B. wrote:
> "Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
> news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
>
>>I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
>>have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
>>tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
>>equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
>>time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>>
>>So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
>>pretty stupid? :) 
>
>
> Which VOR and airports? (so we can play along at home :-)
>
> You could try looking on the Map and see if it matches the flight plan.
>
> Did you watch the Flight Analysis? It might've shed some light on the
> situation, too.
>
> Also, if you flew FROM the VOR instead of TO it (or vice versa), you might
> have simply flown 45km in the wrong direction!
>
>

I mess around with a lot of routes every night, but I'll try and figure
out which one it was and post the details here.

Oh, and I definitely didn't fly in the wrong direction. I stayed tuned
to the same VOR and flew exactly on course - when I checked the map I
saw that I had flown a perfect course to the airport...just about 15 km
too far!

Huw
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:04:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Someone lied to me.
>
> Last night I plotted a simple route. Just one VOR between departure and
> destination airports. No wind. How could things possibly go wrong?
>
> After takeoff, I checked my flight log thing on the kneeboard. It said to
> fly the 122 radial to the VOR, then to fly something like the 069 radial
> from it to the destination. It also said that the second leg of the
> journey would be 55 km.
>
> So after passing the VOR, I turned to my new heading and decided I'd
> admire the scenery and/or annoy ATC for about 45 km, then begin my descent
> on final.
>
> When the DME - which, as far as I can tell, was functioning perfectly -
> said I was 45 km from the VOR, I realised I couldn't see the airport ahead
> of me. I looked around but couldn't locate it, so I finally decided to
> check the map (something I try not to do).
>
> I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
> have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
> tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
> equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
> time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>
> So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
> pretty stupid? :) 
>
> Huw

Sounds a bit mixed up. You're talking of miles and kms within the same
navigaion example. Make sure you're not mixing that up. DME's usually
(except in russian A/C) indicate distances in Nautical Miles. Flight logs
(if not issued metric) should also indicate distances in Nautical Miles.
So first make sure you're always talking of the same measurement system. And
to facilitate things: use Nautical Miles as your basic measurement! It's
quite common in aviation.... ;-)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:04:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Oskar Wagner wrote:

> Sounds a bit mixed up. You're talking of miles and kms within the same
> navigaion example. Make sure you're not mixing that up. DME's usually
> (except in russian A/C) indicate distances in Nautical Miles. Flight logs
> (if not issued metric) should also indicate distances in Nautical Miles.
> So first make sure you're always talking of the same measurement system. And
> to facilitate things: use Nautical Miles as your basic measurement! It's
> quite common in aviation.... ;-)

Yeah, I really should pay more attention. In this case, however, I was
flying in a Baron. So wouldn't the DME use the same unit of distance as
my flight log?

Huw
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:23:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ItMYd.17494$3A6.4478@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
>> Sounds a bit mixed up. You're talking of miles and kms within the same
>> navigaion example. Make sure you're not mixing that up. DME's usually
>> (except in russian A/C) indicate distances in Nautical Miles. Flight logs
>> (if not issued metric) should also indicate distances in Nautical Miles.
>> So first make sure you're always talking of the same measurement system.
>> And to facilitate things: use Nautical Miles as your basic measurement!
>> It's quite common in aviation.... ;-)
>
> Yeah, I really should pay more attention. In this case, however, I was
> flying in a Baron. So wouldn't the DME use the same unit of distance as
> my flight log?
>
> Huw

Well Huw, I can't specify that as I never use flight log's.... ;-)
One thing is for sure anyway: The DME shows the distance ALWAYS in NM
(Nautical Miles) regardless of any settings in the UNITS section. I'm not
sure about the flight log. I should test this in a future session. So maybe
you could indicate your settings and the proper routing so I could create
the same situation here and compare.
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:00:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Erm...OK, I think I've sorted it...

Turns out that the flight log is in km - clearly marked - and the DME
(in the Baron I was flying, at least) is in nm - clearly marked. I feel
foolish. :D 

Huw
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:55:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Huw,

Sometimes it's OK to lie :-)

Cheers

Geoff


"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
news:EAYYd.407$qf7.289@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> Erm...OK, I think I've sorted it...
>
> Turns out that the flight log is in km - clearly marked - and the DME
> (in the Baron I was flying, at least) is in nm - clearly marked. I feel
> foolish. :D 
>
> Huw
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:20:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

GeoffC wrote:
> Huw,
>
> Sometimes it's OK to lie :-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Geoff
>

Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 

Huw
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:20:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi Huw,

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:20:18 GMT, you wrote:

> Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid
> mistake to make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 

If it will soften the blow a bit, you could, instead of admitting to
an "idiot" mistake, just acknowledge that you've...

"experienced an ID 10 T error"

;-)

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.willkayakforfood.tk

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iQCVAwUBQjR45TEYqNTZBqoEAQP0JQQAqUjShTdTdVgLjdQHa0d21+egRZBrQ2MZ
Y48/7/eYCDe/JpmDlMregxgHpVcBd+fM8m9cuyCfOt8XuOqZU9P9MA6BtkNBQMQR
nqWOfe7DOq1CI2oPpHQsku9l3g+ixL0/HK2zPBN8jDwRtbXV1e5vRJrYevwSO0Fv
twuQneBN1S0=
=jojJ
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Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:56:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Lawn Dart wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Hi Huw,
>
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:20:18 GMT, you wrote:
>
>
>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid
>>mistake to make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 
>
>
> If it will soften the blow a bit, you could, instead of admitting to
> an "idiot" mistake, just acknowledge that you've...
>
> "experienced an ID 10 T error"
>
> ;-)
>
> - --
> Melissa
>
> PGP Public Keys: http://www.willkayakforfood.tk
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iQCVAwUBQjR45TEYqNTZBqoEAQP0JQQAqUjShTdTdVgLjdQHa0d21+egRZBrQ2MZ
> Y48/7/eYCDe/JpmDlMregxgHpVcBd+fM8m9cuyCfOt8XuOqZU9P9MA6BtkNBQMQR
> nqWOfe7DOq1CI2oPpHQsku9l3g+ixL0/HK2zPBN8jDwRtbXV1e5vRJrYevwSO0Fv
> twuQneBN1S0=
> =jojJ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hehe, I'll remember that one. Cheers!

Huw
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:07:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:EAYYd.407$qf7.289@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> Erm...OK, I think I've sorted it...
>
> Turns out that the flight log is in km - clearly marked - and the DME (in
> the Baron I was flying, at least) is in nm - clearly marked. I feel
> foolish. :D 
>
> Huw

Don't worry. You're not the first...... and you won't be the last.... ;-)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
March 13, 2005 9:36:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Huw Roberts"
> Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
> make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 

Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every time.

(It was a seaplane base :-)


Dallas
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:36:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:xK%Yd.9411$cN6.4294@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every
> time.
>
> (It was a seaplane base :-)

:-)
I guess in real life, a pilot would have figured that out during taxi.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 10:46:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:23:25 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:

> One thing is for sure anyway: The DME shows the distance ALWAYS in NM
> (Nautical Miles) regardless of any settings in the UNITS section. I'm not
> sure about the flight log. I should test this in a future session. So maybe
> you could indicate your settings and the proper routing so I could create
> the same situation here and compare.

He's done it again!
Three cheers for The Cap'n! :-)

Seriously though...is that a problem with RL instrumentation too?
It seems logical that if you fly between countries that use different units
of measurement, that the instrumention in an aircraft should also be
capable of handling those units of measurement.

In the sim I've had problems setting hectopascal in stead of inches.
And now I find out that the DME only reads NM.
This can't be the same IRL, can it?

--

Marcel
(Gear up, AP engaged...hey...what's that emergency light?)
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 11:08:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> "Huw Roberts"
>
>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 
>
>
> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every time.
>
> (It was a seaplane base :-)
>
>
> Dallas
>
>

Heh, well, I'd like to think I would've figured /that/ one out...

Huw
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 1:43:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1kggwy1vbm6ng.k6ob84uhe8u5.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:23:25 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
>> One thing is for sure anyway: The DME shows the distance ALWAYS in NM
>> (Nautical Miles) regardless of any settings in the UNITS section. I'm not
>> sure about the flight log. I should test this in a future session. So
>> maybe
>> you could indicate your settings and the proper routing so I could create
>> the same situation here and compare.
>
> He's done it again!
> Three cheers for The Cap'n! :-)
>
> Seriously though...is that a problem with RL instrumentation too?
> It seems logical that if you fly between countries that use different
> units
> of measurement, that the instrumention in an aircraft should also be
> capable of handling those units of measurement.
>
> In the sim I've had problems setting hectopascal in stead of inches.
> And now I find out that the DME only reads NM.
> This can't be the same IRL, can it?
>
> --
>
> Marcel
> (Gear up, AP engaged...hey...what's that emergency light?)

Well, kinda yes and no ;-) In RL you will have to cope with different units
of measurements but only as long as non-aircraft based systems are
concerned. The DME will always indicate the distance in the unit it is
designed for as it is basically a airborne based runtime measurement. So in
a russian A/C (old style, like CS MiG 21) the distance will be indicated in
kms, even if it's flying in our airspace whereas our DME's will indicate NM
even in Russia.
Now for the heavier parts: atmospheric pressure (QNH, GFE) can be indicated
in in.Hg. (USA, Canada) or Hectopascal (Europe, Asia, dunno about other
countries e.g. Australia) or even mm Hg. (GUS countries). However in the GUS
countries also Hectopascal is available on the ATIS and on ATC.
Visibility is indicated in kms in Europe and GUS countries, in Nautical
Miles in USA and Canada, RVR is indicated in metres or feet. Cloud ceilings
can be indicated in metres AGL (GUS states and China) or feet AGL (all the
rest). Flight Levels are usually in feet, however part of GUS countries and
China use metric Flight Levels.
Depature and approach procedures can be based on feet QFE (AGL), feet QNH
(MSL) or even metres QFE (AGL). (to be continued... ;-)) )
Ohh, and you can get fuel by the US Gallon or by litres, but you will use it
in kgs or lbs on your A/C ;-)
btw the latter for very practical reasons. The amount of energy carried with
the fuel load corresponds to the MASS of the fuel and not to the VOLUME.
As you might see now it can become quite tricky to fly from one country to
another. But finally it's all a matter of gathering information and
preparation. If you're well prepared you won't be surprised.......
This list is by far not exhaustive but it might at least give you an idea
what you have to cope with if you're flying from Asia via Europe to the US
(or v.v.)......I really loved that ;-))
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 1:43:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Oskar Wagner wrote:

<snip>

Huh? ;) 

Huw
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 2:55:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:6a3Zd.741$vB4.604@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Huh? ;) 
>
> Huw

Sorry, small correction. I was too much in a hurry. Visibility in the states
of course in Statute Miles (Nautical Miles would have been too easy).
Oh, and how about this one: Wind forecast in TAF (Terminal Area Forecast)
based on True North whereas wind indication in METAR based on Magnetic
North..... TBC ;-)))))
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 2:55:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Oskar Wagner wrote:
> "Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:6a3Zd.741$vB4.604@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>
>>Oskar Wagner wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Huh? ;) 
>>
>>Huw
>
>
> Sorry, small correction. I was too much in a hurry. Visibility in the states
> of course in Statute Miles (Nautical Miles would have been too easy).
> Oh, and how about this one: Wind forecast in TAF (Terminal Area Forecast)
> based on True North whereas wind indication in METAR based on Magnetic
> North..... TBC ;-)))))

That's what I thought. Thanks Oskar.

Huw
March 14, 2005 3:58:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:

> "Huw Roberts"
>
>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 
>
>
> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every time.
>
> (It was a seaplane base :-)
>
>
> Dallas
>
>

Is that the one that sparked this?

http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan

--

boB

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 5:25:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Mk5Zd.13495$U_4.1754@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Dallas wrote:
>
>> "Huw Roberts"
>>
>>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 
>>
>>
>> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
>> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
>> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every
>> time.
>>
>> (It was a seaplane base :-)
>>
>>
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>
> Is that the one that sparked this?
>
> http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan
>
> --
>
> boB
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
flights.....
http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
March 14, 2005 7:19:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB"
> > (It was a seaplane base :-)
> Is that the one that sparked this?
> http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan


That would be the one!

ROTFL!

(perhaps your best work)


Dallas
March 14, 2005 7:24:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner"
> One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
> flights.....
> http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)


Whoa! Oskar... he shoots... he scores!

boB better watch out, you've got competition!

Dallas
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 7:30:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Ha! That's great!

--
....Carl Frisk
Anger is a brief madness.
- Horace, 20 B.C.
http://www.carlfrisk.com


"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message news:D 12p5c$aou$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> "boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:Mk5Zd.13495$U_4.1754@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>> Dallas wrote:
>>
>>> "Huw Roberts"
>>>
>>>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
>>> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
>>> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every
>>> time.
>>>
>>> (It was a seaplane base :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Dallas
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is that the one that sparked this?
>>
>> http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan
>>
>> --
>>
>> boB
>>
>> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
>> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
>
> One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
> flights.....
> http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)
> --
> Oskar
> (retired captain)
> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
>
>
March 14, 2005 7:57:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:

> "Oskar Wagner"
>
>>One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
>>flights.....
>>http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)
>
>
>
> Whoa! Oskar... he shoots... he scores!
>
> boB better watch out, you've got competition!
>
> Dallas
>
>

That was great.... I hafta figure that one out. :) 

--

boB

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:33:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D 12p5c$aou$1@news.hispeed.ch...
<snip>
> One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
> flights.....
> http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)
> --
> Oskar
> (retired captain)
> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...

Oskar, wasn't that INCREDIBLY difficult to do? I mean, wwewn't the ILS
indications reversed when you did that? It would certainly confuse ME! <G>

--
Earl Needham
Clovis, New Mexico USA
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:35:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D 12c5v$3rm$1@news.hispeed.ch...
<snip>
> Ohh, and you can get fuel by the US Gallon or by litres, but you will use
it
> in kgs or lbs on your A/C ;-)
> btw the latter for very practical reasons. The amount of energy carried
with
> the fuel load corresponds to the MASS of the fuel and not to the VOLUME.

Do I remember correctly an incident some years ago where the aircrew
asked for x number of GALLONS and the ground crew gave them x number of
POUNDS instead, and the plane ran out of fuel and crashed?

--
Earl Needham
Clovis, New Mexico USA
March 14, 2005 11:25:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:25:30 +0100, "Oskar Wagner"
<rengaw@swissonline.ch> brought the following to our attention:

>"boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
>> Dallas wrote:
>>
>>> "Huw Roberts"
>>>
>>>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake
>>>>to make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;) 
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
>>> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
>>> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every
>>> time.
>>>
>>> (It was a seaplane base :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Dallas
>>
>> Is that the one that sparked this?
>>
>> http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan
>>
>
>One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
>flights... http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)


wouldn't fly like that and cuss as much if CoPilot Tweetie was along!!

http://home.comcast.net/~flightsim/tweetie.jpg :) 
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 5:16:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:04:05 +0100, "Oskar Wagner"
<rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote:

>It's quite common in aviation.... ;-)

Hi Oskar

I get more a little annoyed when the Discovery Channel (it usually is)
starts mixing metric, imperial and US measurements all in the same
sentence.

James
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 6:13:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Earl Needham" <munged@3lefties.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:113b4p6dgf0bff@corp.supernews.com...
> "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
> news:D 12c5v$3rm$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> <snip>
>> Ohh, and you can get fuel by the US Gallon or by litres, but you will use
> it
>> in kgs or lbs on your A/C ;-)
>> btw the latter for very practical reasons. The amount of energy carried
> with
>> the fuel load corresponds to the MASS of the fuel and not to the VOLUME.
>
> Do I remember correctly an incident some years ago where the aircrew
> asked for x number of GALLONS and the ground crew gave them x number of
> POUNDS instead, and the plane ran out of fuel and crashed?
>
> --
> Earl Needham
> Clovis, New Mexico USA
>
>
Well, it didn't crash but made a successful "deadstick" landing with only
minor damage to the A/C (nose gear collapsed). It's nowadays best know as
the "Gimli Glider". A Google search should reveal some details.
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 7:30:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D 14663$6v2$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> "Earl Needham" <munged@3lefties.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:113b4p6dgf0bff@corp.supernews.com...
> > "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
> > news:D 12c5v$3rm$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> > <snip>
> > Do I remember correctly an incident some years ago where the aircrew
> > asked for x number of GALLONS and the ground crew gave them x number of
> > POUNDS instead, and the plane ran out of fuel and crashed?
> >
> Well, it didn't crash but made a successful "deadstick" landing with only
> minor damage to the A/C (nose gear collapsed). It's nowadays best know as
> the "Gimli Glider". A Google search should reveal some details.

Oh, was that the one that landed at Gimli? I was thinking of a
Brazilian airliner that crashed just outside NYC.

--
Earl Needham
Clovis, New Mexico USA
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:42:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Earl Needham wrote:
> "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
> news:D 12p5c$aou$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> <snip>
>
>>One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
>>flights.....
>>http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)
>>--
>>Oskar
>>(retired captain)
>>Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
>
>
> Oskar, wasn't that INCREDIBLY difficult to do? I mean, wwewn't the ILS
> indications reversed when you did that? It would certainly confuse ME! <G>
>

Not to mention the HSI, which I certainly would have noticed. Methinks
Captain Oskar was simply being silly. :D 

Huw
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 12:35:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:43:57 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:

> Well, kinda yes and no ;-) In RL you will have to cope with different units
> of measurements but only as long as non-aircraft based systems are
> concerned. The DME will always indicate the distance in the unit it is
> designed for as it is basically a airborne based runtime measurement. So in
> a russian A/C (old style, like CS MiG 21) the distance will be indicated in
> kms, even if it's flying in our airspace whereas our DME's will indicate NM
> even in Russia.
> Now for the heavier parts: atmospheric pressure (QNH, GFE) can be indicated
> in in.Hg. (USA, Canada) or Hectopascal (Europe, Asia, dunno about other
> countries e.g. Australia) or even mm Hg. (GUS countries). However in the GUS
> countries also Hectopascal is available on the ATIS and on ATC.
> Visibility is indicated in kms in Europe and GUS countries, in Nautical
> Miles in USA and Canada, RVR is indicated in metres or feet. Cloud ceilings
> can be indicated in metres AGL (GUS states and China) or feet AGL (all the
> rest). Flight Levels are usually in feet, however part of GUS countries and
> China use metric Flight Levels.
> Depature and approach procedures can be based on feet QFE (AGL), feet QNH
> (MSL) or even metres QFE (AGL). (to be continued... ;-)) )
> Ohh, and you can get fuel by the US Gallon or by litres, but you will use it
> in kgs or lbs on your A/C ;-)
> btw the latter for very practical reasons. The amount of energy carried with
> the fuel load corresponds to the MASS of the fuel and not to the VOLUME.
> As you might see now it can become quite tricky to fly from one country to
> another. But finally it's all a matter of gathering information and
> preparation. If you're well prepared you won't be surprised.......
> This list is by far not exhaustive but it might at least give you an idea
> what you have to cope with if you're flying from Asia via Europe to the US
> (or v.v.)......I really loved that ;-))

I've printed that out for future use. Thanks, Oskar.

I feel like an idiot, but what are GUS states and GUS countries?

--

Marcel
(If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know when to
push it, and when to back off. - Chuck Yeager)
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 1:06:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:13yo1w7o1onls$.1htybbsuc1h06$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:43:57 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
>> Well, kinda yes and no ;-) In RL you will have to cope with different
>> units
>> of measurements but only as long as non-aircraft based systems are
>> concerned. The DME will always indicate the distance in the unit it is
>> designed for as it is basically a airborne based runtime measurement. So
>> in
>> a russian A/C (old style, like CS MiG 21) the distance will be indicated
>> in
>> kms, even if it's flying in our airspace whereas our DME's will indicate
>> NM
>> even in Russia.
>> Now for the heavier parts: atmospheric pressure (QNH, GFE) can be
>> indicated
>> in in.Hg. (USA, Canada) or Hectopascal (Europe, Asia, dunno about other
>> countries e.g. Australia) or even mm Hg. (GUS countries). However in the
>> GUS
>> countries also Hectopascal is available on the ATIS and on ATC.
>> Visibility is indicated in kms in Europe and GUS countries, in Nautical
>> Miles in USA and Canada, RVR is indicated in metres or feet. Cloud
>> ceilings
>> can be indicated in metres AGL (GUS states and China) or feet AGL (all
>> the
>> rest). Flight Levels are usually in feet, however part of GUS countries
>> and
>> China use metric Flight Levels.
>> Depature and approach procedures can be based on feet QFE (AGL), feet QNH
>> (MSL) or even metres QFE (AGL). (to be continued... ;-)) )
>> Ohh, and you can get fuel by the US Gallon or by litres, but you will use
>> it
>> in kgs or lbs on your A/C ;-)
>> btw the latter for very practical reasons. The amount of energy carried
>> with
>> the fuel load corresponds to the MASS of the fuel and not to the VOLUME.
>> As you might see now it can become quite tricky to fly from one country
>> to
>> another. But finally it's all a matter of gathering information and
>> preparation. If you're well prepared you won't be surprised.......
>> This list is by far not exhaustive but it might at least give you an idea
>> what you have to cope with if you're flying from Asia via Europe to the
>> US
>> (or v.v.)......I really loved that ;-))
>
> I've printed that out for future use. Thanks, Oskar.
>
> I feel like an idiot, but what are GUS states and GUS countries?
>
> --
>
> Marcel
> (If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know when to
> push it, and when to back off. - Chuck Yeager)

Sorry for that. GUS is the german abbreviation for the former soviet states
(Gemeinschaft Unabhängiger Staaten) which are today 12 more or less
independend countries (Armenia, Aserbaidschan, Belarus, Georgia, Kasachstan,
Kirgisistan, Moldavia, Russia, Tadschikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine and
Usbekistan). I'm sure there's an equivalent abbreviation in english... ;-)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 6:32:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Earl Needham" wrote:

> I was thinking of a Brazilian airliner that crashed just outside NYC.

I think you might be talking about an Avianca B707.

From www.airdisaster.com:

"The aircraft crashed while in a holding pattern awaiting landing at
New York's Kennedy Airport. After an unsuccessful approach in bad
weather, the crew executed a missed approach and was put into holding.
The First Officer declared 'minimum fuel' to ATC but never declared an
emergency, which would have given the aircraft immediate clearance to
land. Crew error."


Marcel
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 10:08:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On 15 Mar 2005 03:32:45 -0800, zoepetier@hotmail.com (Zoepetier)
wrote:

>"The aircraft crashed while in a holding pattern awaiting landing at
>New York's Kennedy Airport. After an unsuccessful approach in bad
>weather, the crew executed a missed approach and was put into holding.
>The First Officer declared 'minimum fuel' to ATC but never declared an
>emergency, which would have given the aircraft immediate clearance to
>land. Crew error."
>

Hi Marcel et al

FWIW, there's a programme on telly at 21:00 GMT tonight (Tues,
15/03/05) on the National Geographic Channel about this very accident.
It'll be repeated at 22:00 on the Nat Geo+1 channel.

James
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 1:00:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:08:06 GMT, James Hodson wrote:

> On 15 Mar 2005 03:32:45 -0800, zoepetier@hotmail.com (Zoepetier)
> wrote:
>
>>"The aircraft crashed while in a holding pattern awaiting landing at
>>New York's Kennedy Airport. After an unsuccessful approach in bad
>>weather, the crew executed a missed approach and was put into holding.
>>The First Officer declared 'minimum fuel' to ATC but never declared an
>>emergency, which would have given the aircraft immediate clearance to
>>land. Crew error."
>>
>
> Hi Marcel et al
>
> FWIW, there's a programme on telly at 21:00 GMT tonight (Tues,
> 15/03/05) on the National Geographic Channel about this very accident.
> It'll be repeated at 22:00 on the Nat Geo+1 channel.

Not in Holland.
NGC usually does air crash investigations on Fridays and Sundays, but I'll
keep my eyes open this weekend. I remember seeing it at least once a few
years ago. That thing went down like a brick.

--

Marcel
(If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know when to
push it, and when to back off. - Chuck Yeager)
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 1:12:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:06:56 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:

> Sorry for that. GUS is the german abbreviation for the former soviet states
> (Gemeinschaft Unabhängiger Staaten) which are today 12 more or less
> independend countries (Armenia, Aserbaidschan, Belarus, Georgia, Kasachstan,
> Kirgisistan, Moldavia, Russia, Tadschikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine and
> Usbekistan). I'm sure there's an equivalent abbreviation in english... ;-)

That makes sense. But I think it's still called former-USSR.
Russia is a European country, so it's more than logical that it uses
European measurements (I wish the UK would do the same since it's no longer
an island <g>).

--

Marcel
(I've got a baaad feeling about this.....)
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 1:16:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:25:30 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:

> One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
> flights.....
> http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)

Oskar Oskar Oskar....instruments are everything. You know that. :-)

--

Marcel
(When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the
earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. - Leonardo da Vinci)
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 1:37:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:00:48 +0100, Marcel Kuijper
<zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> FWIW, there's a programme on telly at 21:00 GMT tonight (Tues,
>> 15/03/05) on the National Geographic Channel about this very accident.
>> It'll be repeated at 22:00 on the Nat Geo+1 channel.
>
>Not in Holland.
>NGC usually does air crash investigations on Fridays and Sundays, but I'll
>keep my eyes open this weekend. I remember seeing it at least once a few
>years ago. That thing went down like a brick.

Hi Marcel

I've looked back to previous weeks and the Tuesday Air Crash
Investigations programmes are indeed repeated on Saturday. The Tues
prog is shown again at 16:00 GMT and 17:00 (Nat Geo Chan +1). I cannot
see any evidence of a Friday repeat.

James
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 2:03:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:37:27 GMT, James Hodson
<jUNDERSCOREhodson@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote:

>I've looked back to previous weeks and the Tuesday Air Crash
>Investigations programmes are indeed repeated on Saturday. The Tues
>prog is shown again at 16:00 GMT and 17:00 (Nat Geo Chan +1). I cannot
>see any evidence of a Friday repeat.

The programme has just finished. Like many in the Air Crash
Investigations series it spends too much time on the air crash but too
little on the actual investigation. Nevertheless, the prog is worth
watching.

Just IMO, of course.

James
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 11:31:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:37:27 GMT, James Hodson wrote:

> Marcel Kuijper wrote:
>>NGC usually does air crash investigations on Fridays and Sundays, but I'll
>>keep my eyes open this weekend. I remember seeing it at least once a few
>>years ago. That thing went down like a brick.


> I've looked back to previous weeks and the Tuesday Air Crash
> Investigations programmes are indeed repeated on Saturday. The Tues
> prog is shown again at 16:00 GMT and 17:00 (Nat Geo Chan +1). I cannot
> see any evidence of a Friday repeat.

Our NGC programming schedule is a little different.
Same programmes as everywhere else, but in a different order.
And of course plenty of Dutch commercials every 20 minutes or so.

--

Marcel
(If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know when to
push it, and when to back off. - Chuck Yeager)
!