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Bravo Airspace

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March 22, 2005 11:52:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

When entering Bravo airspace with the intention to land, do you contact
Center for clearance until you get close enough to contact the tower? Or do
you contact the Tower and forget Center.

Dallas

More about : bravo airspace

Anonymous
March 22, 2005 11:52:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas,

You contact approach before you enter Bravo airspace.......

HTH
Mark,

--
To reply by email remove the (nospam)
"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:e1R%d.950$gI5.899@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> When entering Bravo airspace with the intention to land, do you contact
> Center for clearance until you get close enough to contact the tower? Or
> do
> you contact the Tower and forget Center.
>
> Dallas
>
>
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 1:56:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:e1R%d.950$gI5.899@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> When entering Bravo airspace with the intention to land, do you contact
> Center for clearance until you get close enough to contact the tower? Or
> do
> you contact the Tower and forget Center.
>
> Dallas
>

Dallas,
Before entering class B you must contact the controlling airports
Approach Control, and request clearance to enter class B airspace. You may
only enter class B when given clearnace to do so. Once you are in Class B
then you must stay on the approach frequency until App Con hands you off to
the Tower frequency. This is a little different from class C airspace, where
all you have to do is establish two-way radio communication with Approach
Control prior to entering class C.
There is also a "30 nm veil" around class B airspace, where you must
squawk the correct transponder code within 30 nautical miles of class B. I
have never flown into class B airspace in real life, so I'm not sure if
Center gives you the transponder code, or if Approach Control does. Hope
this helps...

Randy L.

"Islam, winning the hearts and minds of the world...one hostage at a time."
Related resources
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 9:44:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Also Sprach Randy L. <rlink"nospam"@cableone.net>:

> This is a little different from class C airspace, where
> all you have to do is establish two-way radio communication with Approach
> Control prior to entering class C.

Which leads to some interesting scenarios.

N414AL: New York Aproach, Piper 414AL.
New York: Piper 4AL, standby.

I am now allowed to enter Islip's Class C, even though I have not informed
Approach of my location, altitude, or intentions.

N414AL: New York Aproach, Piper 414AL.
New York: Aircraft calling, standby.

I am NOT allowed to enter the Class C. Two-way communications have not
been established.

Dan




--
The early bird gets the leftover coffee from the night before
March 23, 2005 12:52:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Randy L."
> Once you are in Class B
> then you must stay on the approach frequency until App Con hands you off
to
> the Tower frequency.

In the sim if you request clearance into class B they will never hand you
off to the Tower. :-(

Correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't class B "feel" very much like IFR? I
mean, don't they assign altitudes and vector you through the space? Or, do
they just move you out of the way of a conflict?

Dallas
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 12:52:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:fs00e.1355$gI5.956@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Randy L."
>> Once you are in Class B
>> then you must stay on the approach frequency until App Con hands you off
> to
>> the Tower frequency.
>
> In the sim if you request clearance into class B they will never hand you
> off to the Tower. :-(
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't class B "feel" very much like IFR? I
> mean, don't they assign altitudes and vector you through the space? Or,
> do
> they just move you out of the way of a conflict?
>
> Dallas
>
>

You are under "positive control" but all aircraft always have a
responsiblity to see and avoid other aircraft.

I routinely transition the Phoenix Class Bravo via the N/S transition
routes. Here's how it goes when I fly from KCHD (Chandler Muni) to KPRC
(Love Field, Prescott, AZ):

Take off from Chandler, climb to 3500' flying roughly due west. It is
approx 10 miles or so from Chandler Muni to Firebird Lake which is a
reporting point shown by the magenta flag symbol on a sectional or TAC
chart. While heading to Firebird Lake I will:

1) Request frequency change from Chandler to contact Prescott FSS and open
my flight plan
2) Pick up the Sky Harbor ATIS on Com 2
3) Dial up frequency to contact Phoenix Approach Control
4) Remain at 3500' to stay under the Class B floor.

Me (25A): Phoenix Approach, Cessna N5225A is one mile east of Firebird Lake
at three-thousand fife hundred feet with information "X" and would like to
transition the Class Bravo northbound to the AVENT intersection, enroute
Love Field, Prescott at eight-thousand, fife hundred feet. And, if able,
would like a handoff to Albuqurque Center on the north side.

Phoenix Approach (PA): Cessna N5225A squawk 0512 and remain clear of the
Class Bravo.

Me: Squawk 0512 and remain clear, Cessna N5225A

<A moment or two pass and I might have to start a slow circling turn...>

PA: Cessna 25A is cleared into the Class Bravo via the East (West)
transtion, climb and maintain four-thousand, fife hundred feet...say type of
aircraft.
(- East / West Transition = the corridor in use based on traffic flow at Sky
Harbor. Basically, ATC wants you crossing the airport at the lowest point
of their traffic. If planes are landing and taking off to the west, you'll
cross over the east end of the airport and vice versa.)

25A: Cessna 25A is cleared into the Class Bravo airspace via the East (West)
transition, climb and maintain 4500'. Cessna 25A is a Charlie 172 slant
Golf (/G).
(- The /G tells ATC that I have a GPS and can accept direct routings if need
be.)

I now aim straight for the area on the south side of the airport and the
correct end of the airport over which I've been instructed to fly. I
maintain my course following the freeways that the the corridor parralells.
I am under positive control and they will call traffic. I'm expected to
find it and report that I see it. I will never assume that ATC will call
all conflicts so I'm heads up and looking around...a lot!!

Once I get to the start point of the transition corridor, I will maintain my
heading and altitude and will eventually get handed off to the controller
working the northern half of the low altitude part of Class B. He/she may
offer me a more direct heading if traffic allows but they will ususally keep
me as low as possible until I'm well clear of the inner most ring of the
Class B airspace. Eventually, I'll get instructed to proceed on course and
can climb to 6500'...expect 8500' in ten minutes or so.

It actually looks earilly like FS9. I see planes taxiing around on the
ramp. Planes taking off to the west and planes coming in to land from the
east. The relationship from Sky Harbor to downtown Phoenix is just about
right in FS9. I have some photos I've taken while over Sky Harbor that
could pass for screenshots in FS9 and vice versa. I've been co-alt with
Dash 8's and 737s passing in front and behind me. I've even had a Citation
Jet pass directly under me (on about the same heading...) while on approach
to Scottsdale's RWY 3. ATC told me he would be passing from my 6 to 12
o'clock and lower...but it was still un-nerving to see him pop out right
under my prop and extend away from me. I knew he saw me but I couldn't find
him until he was out from under me.

The return trip will work in a very similar fashion with one twist. Since
I'm already getting flight following from Albuqurque Center, I'll get a
handoff to Phoenix Approach from whom I MUST again get permission to enter
Class B. They'll start working me down (from 9500') and have me cross Sky
Harbor at either 3500' or 5500' until I'm about over South Mountain (the
lump with TV towers south of Sky Harbor in FS9) whereupon I'll get the
familiar: "Cessna 25A, Radar services terminated, Squawk 1-2-0-0, frequency
change approaved, so long." I always try to offer up a quick "Thanks for
your help, we'll see ya..." before I change freq to Chandler, tell them I'm
over Firebird Lake descending to 2500 with "X" to land.

I'll monitor 122.8 to make sure that noone is popping up out of Stellar
Airpark (P19) and will usually get asked to report a 2 mile base entry for
either 4L or 22R at Chandler.

So, transitioning Class B is easy, but it's a little more involved than the
folks at MS would have you believe.

Regards,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
Chandler, AZ
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 12:52:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Jay,
Thanks for that very informative example. I agree that the ATC in real
life is quite a bit more involved than in FS2004. I like to think of the ATC
in FS2004 as the "Readers Digest" version of ATC ;-}. I have noticed in
FS2004 that the ATC doesn't handle VFR traffic exactly like in real life.
For example, I usually fly VFR out of a class C airport. Even though I am
flying VFR, I still have to request clearance from Clearance Delivery and
get a transponder code prior to contacting Ground Control to taxi. Then,
after takeoff, I am handed off to Departure Control which verifies radar
contact. Dep Con gives me traffic alerts all of the way out of class C,
then asks me to squawk VFR and switch to local frequency. None of this ever
happens in FS2004 though. In FS2004, I don't contact Clearance Delivery, or
get a squawk code, and the Tower switches me to local frequency almost
immediately after takeoff and I never have to use a transponder code other
than 1200. When entering class C while flying VFR in real life, I still have
to contact Approach Control prior to entry, and they once again give me a
transponder code and verify radar contact. They then give me traffic alerts
and vectors, if necessary, until they hand me off to the Tower frequency.
None of this happens in FS2004 either. I realize that the regulations say
that participation in positive control in class C is strictly voluntary for
VFR traffic, but in real life no-one refuses to "volunteer". Not that I am
complaining (too loudly). At least Microsoft tries. And for a $60 program,
it really does a pretty good job. I just hope no-one takes real-life flying
lessons and tries to use FS2004 ATC procedures. Take care....

Randy L.

"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:0910e.346$Mt5.136@fed1read01...
> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
> news:fs00e.1355$gI5.956@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Randy L."
>>> Once you are in Class B
>>> then you must stay on the approach frequency until App Con hands you off
>> to
>>> the Tower frequency.
>>
>> In the sim if you request clearance into class B they will never hand you
>> off to the Tower. :-(
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't class B "feel" very much like IFR? I
>> mean, don't they assign altitudes and vector you through the space? Or,
>> do
>> they just move you out of the way of a conflict?
>>
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>
> You are under "positive control" but all aircraft always have a
> responsiblity to see and avoid other aircraft.
>
> I routinely transition the Phoenix Class Bravo via the N/S transition
> routes. Here's how it goes when I fly from KCHD (Chandler Muni) to KPRC
> (Love Field, Prescott, AZ):
>
> Take off from Chandler, climb to 3500' flying roughly due west. It is
> approx 10 miles or so from Chandler Muni to Firebird Lake which is a
> reporting point shown by the magenta flag symbol on a sectional or TAC
> chart. While heading to Firebird Lake I will:
>
> 1) Request frequency change from Chandler to contact Prescott FSS and open
> my flight plan
> 2) Pick up the Sky Harbor ATIS on Com 2
> 3) Dial up frequency to contact Phoenix Approach Control
> 4) Remain at 3500' to stay under the Class B floor.
>
> Me (25A): Phoenix Approach, Cessna N5225A is one mile east of Firebird
> Lake at three-thousand fife hundred feet with information "X" and would
> like to transition the Class Bravo northbound to the AVENT intersection,
> enroute Love Field, Prescott at eight-thousand, fife hundred feet. And,
> if able, would like a handoff to Albuqurque Center on the north side.
>
> Phoenix Approach (PA): Cessna N5225A squawk 0512 and remain clear of the
> Class Bravo.
>
> Me: Squawk 0512 and remain clear, Cessna N5225A
>
> <A moment or two pass and I might have to start a slow circling turn...>
>
> PA: Cessna 25A is cleared into the Class Bravo via the East (West)
> transtion, climb and maintain four-thousand, fife hundred feet...say type
> of aircraft.
> (- East / West Transition = the corridor in use based on traffic flow at
> Sky Harbor. Basically, ATC wants you crossing the airport at the lowest
> point of their traffic. If planes are landing and taking off to the west,
> you'll cross over the east end of the airport and vice versa.)
>
> 25A: Cessna 25A is cleared into the Class Bravo airspace via the East
> (West) transition, climb and maintain 4500'. Cessna 25A is a Charlie 172
> slant Golf (/G).
> (- The /G tells ATC that I have a GPS and can accept direct routings if
> need be.)
>
> I now aim straight for the area on the south side of the airport and the
> correct end of the airport over which I've been instructed to fly. I
> maintain my course following the freeways that the the corridor
> parralells. I am under positive control and they will call traffic. I'm
> expected to find it and report that I see it. I will never assume that
> ATC will call all conflicts so I'm heads up and looking around...a lot!!
>
> Once I get to the start point of the transition corridor, I will maintain
> my heading and altitude and will eventually get handed off to the
> controller working the northern half of the low altitude part of Class B.
> He/she may offer me a more direct heading if traffic allows but they will
> ususally keep me as low as possible until I'm well clear of the inner most
> ring of the Class B airspace. Eventually, I'll get instructed to proceed
> on course and can climb to 6500'...expect 8500' in ten minutes or so.
>
> It actually looks earilly like FS9. I see planes taxiing around on the
> ramp. Planes taking off to the west and planes coming in to land from the
> east. The relationship from Sky Harbor to downtown Phoenix is just about
> right in FS9. I have some photos I've taken while over Sky Harbor that
> could pass for screenshots in FS9 and vice versa. I've been co-alt with
> Dash 8's and 737s passing in front and behind me. I've even had a
> Citation Jet pass directly under me (on about the same heading...) while
> on approach to Scottsdale's RWY 3. ATC told me he would be passing from
> my 6 to 12 o'clock and lower...but it was still un-nerving to see him pop
> out right under my prop and extend away from me. I knew he saw me but I
> couldn't find him until he was out from under me.
>
> The return trip will work in a very similar fashion with one twist. Since
> I'm already getting flight following from Albuqurque Center, I'll get a
> handoff to Phoenix Approach from whom I MUST again get permission to enter
> Class B. They'll start working me down (from 9500') and have me cross Sky
> Harbor at either 3500' or 5500' until I'm about over South Mountain (the
> lump with TV towers south of Sky Harbor in FS9) whereupon I'll get the
> familiar: "Cessna 25A, Radar services terminated, Squawk 1-2-0-0,
> frequency change approaved, so long." I always try to offer up a quick
> "Thanks for your help, we'll see ya..." before I change freq to Chandler,
> tell them I'm over Firebird Lake descending to 2500 with "X" to land.
>
> I'll monitor 122.8 to make sure that noone is popping up out of Stellar
> Airpark (P19) and will usually get asked to report a 2 mile base entry for
> either 4L or 22R at Chandler.
>
> So, transitioning Class B is easy, but it's a little more involved than
> the folks at MS would have you believe.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
> Chandler, AZ
>
>
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 12:56:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dan,
It does sound counter-intuitive, doesn't it? Actually, it's not as bad
as it sounds. For instance, when a pilot calls Approach Control initially,
they something like: "Boise Approach, Cessna 1478 Romeo Lima over Kuna at
five thousand five hundred, inbound to land, with Romeo". That way Approach
Control knows who you are, where you are at, what altitude you are at (to
help identify you on their radar), what your intentions are, and the ATIS
info that you have. But you are correct, if Approach Control responds with
"Aircraft calling Boise Approach, standby", then you have NOT established
two-way communication (App Con has NOT acknowledged your aircraft
identification) and you are not allowed to proceed into class C airspace. I
guess the bottom line is that when you initially call App Con, you want to
give them the information that they need so that they can determine whether
to allow you to proceed into class C or not.

Randy L.

"Marshall Banana" <dan@angband.org> wrote in message
news:3ab7bkF69apqlU1@individual.net...
> Also Sprach Randy L. <rlink"nospam"@cableone.net>:
>

> N414AL: New York Aproach, Piper 414AL.
> New York: Piper 4AL, standby.
>
> I am now allowed to enter Islip's Class C, even though I have not informed
> Approach of my location, altitude, or intentions.
>
> N414AL: New York Aproach, Piper 414AL.
> New York: Aircraft calling, standby.
>
> I am NOT allowed to enter the Class C. Two-way communications have not
> been established.
>
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 4:36:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:56:40 -0700, "Randy L."
<rlink"nospam"@cableone.net> wrote:

> Thanks for that very informative example. I agree that the ATC in real
>life is quite a bit more involved than in FS2004. I like to think of the ATC
>in FS2004 as the "Readers Digest" version of ATC ;-}.

[SNIP]

>"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:0910e.346$Mt5.136@fed1read01...

>> You are under "positive control" but all aircraft always have a
>> responsiblity to see and avoid other aircraft.
>>
>> I routinely transition the Phoenix Class Bravo via the N/S transition
>> routes. Here's how it goes when I fly from KCHD (Chandler Muni) to KPRC
>> (Love Field, Prescott, AZ):
>>

[SNIP]

Hi Randy and Jay

Many thanks for that details and excellent information. As Manuel said
in Fawlty Towers: "I learn, I learn."

The i's have it! I have pondered for some time why there are so many
Airport Muns in FS2002. Jay, your use of the word muni cleared the
cloth from my brain. Doh.

BTW, can one request altitute changes in FS9? How does ATC differ
between FS2002 and FS2004?

Thanks both
James
March 23, 2005 10:40:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Thanks Jay! Nice job.

Dallas

"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:0910e.346$Mt5.136@fed1read01...
> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
> news:fs00e.1355$gI5.956@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Randy L."
> >> Once you are in Class B
> >> then you must stay on the approach frequency until App Con hands you
off
> > to
> >> the Tower frequency.
> >
> > In the sim if you request clearance into class B they will never hand
you
> > off to the Tower. :-(
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't class B "feel" very much like IFR?
I
> > mean, don't they assign altitudes and vector you through the space? Or,
> > do
> > they just move you out of the way of a conflict?
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> >
>
> You are under "positive control" but all aircraft always have a
> responsiblity to see and avoid other aircraft.
>
> I routinely transition the Phoenix Class Bravo via the N/S transition
> routes. Here's how it goes when I fly from KCHD (Chandler Muni) to KPRC
> (Love Field, Prescott, AZ):
>
> Take off from Chandler, climb to 3500' flying roughly due west. It is
> approx 10 miles or so from Chandler Muni to Firebird Lake which is a
> reporting point shown by the magenta flag symbol on a sectional or TAC
> chart. While heading to Firebird Lake I will:
>
> 1) Request frequency change from Chandler to contact Prescott FSS and open
> my flight plan
> 2) Pick up the Sky Harbor ATIS on Com 2
> 3) Dial up frequency to contact Phoenix Approach Control
> 4) Remain at 3500' to stay under the Class B floor.
>
> Me (25A): Phoenix Approach, Cessna N5225A is one mile east of Firebird
Lake
> at three-thousand fife hundred feet with information "X" and would like to
> transition the Class Bravo northbound to the AVENT intersection, enroute
> Love Field, Prescott at eight-thousand, fife hundred feet. And, if able,
> would like a handoff to Albuqurque Center on the north side.
>
> Phoenix Approach (PA): Cessna N5225A squawk 0512 and remain clear of the
> Class Bravo.
>
> Me: Squawk 0512 and remain clear, Cessna N5225A
>
> <A moment or two pass and I might have to start a slow circling turn...>
>
> PA: Cessna 25A is cleared into the Class Bravo via the East (West)
> transtion, climb and maintain four-thousand, fife hundred feet...say type
of
> aircraft.
> (- East / West Transition = the corridor in use based on traffic flow at
Sky
> Harbor. Basically, ATC wants you crossing the airport at the lowest point
> of their traffic. If planes are landing and taking off to the west,
you'll
> cross over the east end of the airport and vice versa.)
>
> 25A: Cessna 25A is cleared into the Class Bravo airspace via the East
(West)
> transition, climb and maintain 4500'. Cessna 25A is a Charlie 172 slant
> Golf (/G).
> (- The /G tells ATC that I have a GPS and can accept direct routings if
need
> be.)
>
> I now aim straight for the area on the south side of the airport and the
> correct end of the airport over which I've been instructed to fly. I
> maintain my course following the freeways that the the corridor
parralells.
> I am under positive control and they will call traffic. I'm expected to
> find it and report that I see it. I will never assume that ATC will call
> all conflicts so I'm heads up and looking around...a lot!!
>
> Once I get to the start point of the transition corridor, I will maintain
my
> heading and altitude and will eventually get handed off to the controller
> working the northern half of the low altitude part of Class B. He/she may
> offer me a more direct heading if traffic allows but they will ususally
keep
> me as low as possible until I'm well clear of the inner most ring of the
> Class B airspace. Eventually, I'll get instructed to proceed on course
and
> can climb to 6500'...expect 8500' in ten minutes or so.
>
> It actually looks earilly like FS9. I see planes taxiing around on the
> ramp. Planes taking off to the west and planes coming in to land from the
> east. The relationship from Sky Harbor to downtown Phoenix is just about
> right in FS9. I have some photos I've taken while over Sky Harbor that
> could pass for screenshots in FS9 and vice versa. I've been co-alt with
> Dash 8's and 737s passing in front and behind me. I've even had a
Citation
> Jet pass directly under me (on about the same heading...) while on
approach
> to Scottsdale's RWY 3. ATC told me he would be passing from my 6 to 12
> o'clock and lower...but it was still un-nerving to see him pop out right
> under my prop and extend away from me. I knew he saw me but I couldn't
find
> him until he was out from under me.
>
> The return trip will work in a very similar fashion with one twist. Since
> I'm already getting flight following from Albuqurque Center, I'll get a
> handoff to Phoenix Approach from whom I MUST again get permission to enter
> Class B. They'll start working me down (from 9500') and have me cross Sky
> Harbor at either 3500' or 5500' until I'm about over South Mountain (the
> lump with TV towers south of Sky Harbor in FS9) whereupon I'll get the
> familiar: "Cessna 25A, Radar services terminated, Squawk 1-2-0-0,
frequency
> change approaved, so long." I always try to offer up a quick "Thanks for
> your help, we'll see ya..." before I change freq to Chandler, tell them
I'm
> over Firebird Lake descending to 2500 with "X" to land.
>
> I'll monitor 122.8 to make sure that noone is popping up out of Stellar
> Airpark (P19) and will usually get asked to report a 2 mile base entry for
> either 4L or 22R at Chandler.
>
> So, transitioning Class B is easy, but it's a little more involved than
the
> folks at MS would have you believe.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
> Chandler, AZ
>
>
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 10:40:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:WCj0e.2076$gI5.760@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Thanks Jay! Nice job.
>
> Dallas
>

TY...TYVM...
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 11:01:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Also Sprach Randy L. <rlink"nospam"@cableone.net>:
> Dan,
> It does sound counter-intuitive, doesn't it? Actually, it's not as bad
> as it sounds. For instance, when a pilot calls Approach Control initially,
> they something like: "Boise Approach, Cessna 1478 Romeo Lima over Kuna at
> five thousand five hundred, inbound to land, with Romeo". That way Approach
> Control knows who you are, where you are at, what altitude you are at (to
> help identify you on their radar), what your intentions are, and the ATIS
> info that you have.

New York Approach really prefers you not provide your intentions/location
on initial contact. The controllers are working so many frequencies, that
you really have no idea whether the controller you are calling is handling
an aircraft on a different frequency. They'll give you a "4AL, Go-ahead."
when they're ready to handle you, usually within a minute or so.

Dan


--
Love is like a bottle of gin, but a bottle of gin is NOT like love.

-- The Magnetic Fields
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 11:01:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marshall Banana" <dan@angband.org> wrote in message
news:3ae09eF63biruU1@individual.net...
>
> New York Approach really prefers you not provide your intentions/location
> on initial contact. The controllers are working so many frequencies, that
> you really have no idea whether the controller you are calling is handling
> an aircraft on a different frequency. They'll give you a "4AL, Go-ahead."
> when they're ready to handle you, usually within a minute or so.
>
> Dan

Interesting.

I was taught/shown to do similar until I went on my PP checkride.

My DE strongly urged me to hit ATC up front with all the info in as concise
and direct a way as possible, thereby not tying up the freq any longer than
necessary.

Why use two or more transmissions when one will do?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
Chandler, AZ
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 12:10:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

--- quote ------------------------------------------------------------

I was taught/shown to do similar until I went on my PP checkride.

My DE strongly urged me to hit ATC up front with all the info in as
concise
and direct a way as possible, thereby not tying up the freq any longer
than
necessary.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


I wonder if this is common on PPL initial certification rides (I did my
ride on March 3, 2005), as I've heard about this kind of thing before
and semi-experienced it. It bugs me when DE's use the exam time as a
teaching session rather than just checking that the PIC is flying to
PTS specs. It really could throw the pilot under exam off.



I was lucky in the sense that my DE also happened to be the chief pilot
at the FBO where I did my private. I had another primary instructor,
was ready for the checkride, then broke my arm and was out for 2
months. When I came back, the first thing I did was schedule a few
prep sessions with the DE himself because he is known to be very
particular. Well, it ended up he did not like much if any of the way I
did standard maneuvres, specifically approach to land (from the numbers
through final)... The thing is, there is nothing particularly wrong
with the way I was taught, just everybody has a slightly different (or
greatly different) way they want to see things done. Sooo I modified
my techniques to appease him, and either way was to PTS... but
anyway...



ATC in the real world is definitely not like FS! I do wish that FS had
a bit of a better built in system. Are there any (non-live voice, but
computer generated) ATC 3rd party apps that can be recommended that
actually plug into FS? Anyone used those Comm1 (I think that is the
brand) communications practice progs?

You folks that fly out of an airport based inside controlled airspace
really do have an early advantage. I know what to do, but when I
actually have to do it I am so not-in-practice that I often say things
that make me sound like a non-native English speaker ... :)  I'm sure
that will change quickly.

Just on the simradar board for the first time. I'm a big fan of the FS
series, but am a better real world pilot than sim pilot, I'm afraid. I
don't find the flight models to be bad by any means, but there are some
issues with some things that are not only unrealistic but so wacky that
they aren't even fun... like trimming for level flight.. for some
reason, some aircraft are extremely difficult to hold altitude/airspeed
on in FS. But I'm getting off track...

Chris Mitchell

PPL ASEL, and MSEL add-on checkride tomorrow. I'll take a Piper
Seminole over a C172 ANY day... it is stable as a granite table...
makes the C172 seem like a scary rollercoaster. :) 

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 2:55:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Also Sprach Jay Beckman <jnsbeckman@cox.net>:
> "Marshall Banana" <dan@angband.org> wrote in message
> news:3ae09eF63biruU1@individual.net...
>>
>> New York Approach really prefers you not provide your intentions/location
>> on initial contact. The controllers are working so many frequencies, that
>> you really have no idea whether the controller you are calling is handling
>> an aircraft on a different frequency. They'll give you a "4AL, Go-ahead."
>> when they're ready to handle you, usually within a minute or so.

> Interesting.

> I was taught/shown to do similar until I went on my PP checkride.

> My DE strongly urged me to hit ATC up front with all the info in as concise
> and direct a way as possible, thereby not tying up the freq any longer than
> necessary.

> Why use two or more transmissions when one will do?

Because in congested airspace, ATC will likely not get any useful
information out of your initial transmission. A single controller may
be operating on multiple frequencys, and may be communicating with
another aircraft at the time you call. While providing your full
information up-front may work well in a less busy area, in a very busy
environment, it can signifigantly increase congestion on the frequency
when a controller needs you to retransmit because they were not able to
copy your initial transmission.

If you have a chance, check out the FAA's "Operation
Raincheck" seminars.. they are intended to provide a dialog between
controllers and pilots, and allow each other to advise ways of making the
ATC process work better in your specific area.

Dan



--
I wish I was deep, instead of just macho.

-- Tyrone Power
March 24, 2005 9:04:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"manatee"
> issues with some things that are not only unrealistic but so wacky that
> they aren't even fun... like trimming for level flight.. for some
> reason, some aircraft are extremely difficult to hold altitude/airspeed
> on in FS.


Agreed!

Some are terrible (payware included). I wonder why they can't tune the
pitch flight dynamics to make them more realistic?

Dallas

Congrats on your PPL!
March 24, 2005 11:51:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

manatee wrote:

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I wonder if this is common on PPL initial certification rides (I did my
> ride on March 3, 2005), as I've heard about this kind of thing before
> and semi-experienced it. It bugs me when DE's use the exam time as a
> teaching session rather than just checking that the PIC is flying to
> PTS specs. It really could throw the pilot under exam off.
>

Isn't that a good thing??? Pilots must multi-task from the pre-flight
to the tie-down. Most pilots can perform maneuvers by clicking off the
steps in his/her head. If he/she cannot perform the task because
something else is demanding their attention, it may be time for more
instruction.


--

boB

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 11:51:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> wrote in message
news:lLF0e.38109$8D.12311@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> manatee wrote:
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> I wonder if this is common on PPL initial certification rides (I did my
>> ride on March 3, 2005), as I've heard about this kind of thing before
>> and semi-experienced it. It bugs me when DE's use the exam time as a
>> teaching session rather than just checking that the PIC is flying to
>> PTS specs. It really could throw the pilot under exam off.
>
> Isn't that a good thing??? Pilots must multi-task from the pre-flight to
> the tie-down. Most pilots can perform maneuvers by clicking off the steps
> in his/her head. If he/she cannot perform the task because something else
> is demanding their attention, it may be time for more instruction.
>
>
> --
>
> boB
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

Exactly boB,

After all, distractions are part of the PTS and are fair game for DEs.

(Embarrasing confession follows...)

When I took my final stage check about a week before I took my checkride, I
happened to creat my own (inadvertant) diversion.

I had tucked my sectional up by the left windscreen pillar only to have it
fall off right in my lap as I rotated for a soft-field takeoff...BANG! right
on the aft tiedown ring...sheesh.

Jay B
!