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Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
BenOne© wrote:
>The Canon's are definitely superior because of the individual ink tanks.
For refilling, the Canons are definitely easier. No argument there.
> Doesn't
>the ip4000 have a much better resolution and droplet size than the HPs.
Resolution is the same 4800x1200. Droplet size is smaller for the C&M
colours at 2 picoliters on the Canon. However, the HP can use six
colours instead of four and produces similar if not better photos.
My friend just bought the HP 6540 (basically the same as 7960 for photo
prints), and it produces better photos than my i850, which is similar to
the iP4000 except for the photo black ink.
I'd like to see side by side comparisons. 
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
The iP4000 is a five ink tank system - dye based CMYK and pigmented black
for text, the same as the i860. The iP3000 is the successor to the i850.
These lack the dye based black, but do have pigmented black for text. The
iP5000 uses the same ink setup as the iP4000 but has an even smaller droplet
size of one picoliter.
--
Ron Cohen
"Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote in message news:05idnTvQ9pRN-x3cRVn-sw@golden.net...
> BenOne© wrote:
>
>>The Canon's are definitely superior because of the individual ink tanks.
>
> For refilling, the Canons are definitely easier. No argument there.
>
>> Doesn't
>>the ip4000 have a much better resolution and droplet size than the HPs.
>
> Resolution is the same 4800x1200. Droplet size is smaller for the C&M
> colours at 2 picoliters on the Canon. However, the HP can use six
> colours instead of four and produces similar if not better photos.
>
> My friend just bought the HP 6540 (basically the same as 7960 for photo
> prints), and it produces better photos than my i850, which is similar to
> the iP4000 except for the photo black ink.
>
> I'd like to see side by side comparisons.
---
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Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote in message news:S8mdnWKAeL1yyhzcRVn-3Q@golden.net...
> I bought a Canon for one primary reason - the clear ink tanks are VERY
> easy to refill. Beyond that, they have no serious advantage. And now I'm
> concerned about its printhead life...
Yup, I don't refill because the OEM cartridges are cheap enough at Costco.
I see no advantage either, despite the advertising gimmicks. I had to try
it for myself, and now I am satisfied that I can go back to HP knowing it's
good enough until the next line of seriously revamped printers from another
comapny comes out. I too am getting concerned about the print head life.
It's very humid here in Hawaii and previous experiences with a Canon BJC5000
and BJC4300 have left me with a bad impression of Canon's printers. Once it
dies though, I'm trashing it and not looking back. I am not in the market
for a disposable printer 
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"PC Medic" <NOT@home.net> wrote in message
news
eDgd.165$G15.41@fed1read03...
> The fact that Canon covers the
> printhead in that warranty is eveidence that they must feel it IS designed
> for the life of the printer.
Or that they know it might fail within 12 months, and if not, they could
care less because it will fail after the warranty period is over and tough
luck for the consumer.
> Talk about flawed figures. What do you do with the remaining ink in that
> cartridge that one of the colors ran out in? You chuck it in the garbage
> with the cartridge. That increases cost per page. You buy a $35
replacement
> cause one color is out, I buy an $11 replacement (which yilelds more pages
> per tank than your HP.
Do you think everyone will have unequal usage, therefore requiring premature
cartridge replacement? In my first set of Canon cartridges, I found that I
had just a little more yellow than the rest of my colors. Hardly a savings.
I'm now on my second set and can see I have about 1/3 more yellow than the
rest of my colors. Who knows, by the time I use all the ink from this
second set of cartridges, the yellow may be down to the same levels as the
other colors. It's not a good assumption that individual cartridges
automatically save you money. That type of mentality is exactly what the
marketing folks love. Unless you are constantly printing say, a red logo,
chances are you'll end up with just a little more yellow than the rest of
the colors. Whether or not it's a fair trade off is up to the consumer.
I'd rather just replace the whole thing and get a new printhead so I don't
have to worry about the print head.
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"xNokia3390x" <ofc2-ivom@spamex.com> wrote in message
news:jeFgd.32082$Kl3.7404@twister.socal.rr.com...
> "PC Medic" <NOT@home.net> wrote in message
> newseDgd.165$G15.41@fed1read03...
>> The fact that Canon covers the
>> printhead in that warranty is eveidence that they must feel it IS
>> designed
>> for the life of the printer.
>
> Or that they know it might fail within 12 months, and if not, they could
> care less because it will fail after the warranty period is over and tough
> luck for the consumer.
>
My current printers include
BJC-3000 - 4 years old never a problem
S520 - 3 years old and never a problem
i560 - about a year old and is replacement for another S520 that started to
have intermittent paper feed problems. canon no longer had replacement
S520's so replaced it with a brand new i560 (never a printhead problem with
either of these )
iP4000 - Just purchased about a month ago and runs like a champ.
As for tough luck for the customer after the warranty is over, well duh!
most companies do have time periods on their warranties.That is why they
offer extended service plans (which by the way in Canon's case also covers
the printhead).
>> Talk about flawed figures. What do you do with the remaining ink in that
>> cartridge that one of the colors ran out in? You chuck it in the garbage
>> with the cartridge. That increases cost per page. You buy a $35
> replacement
>> cause one color is out, I buy an $11 replacement (which yilelds more
>> pages
>> per tank than your HP.
>
> Do you think everyone will have unequal usage, therefore requiring
> premature
> cartridge replacement? In my first set of Canon cartridges, I found that
> I
> had just a little more yellow than the rest of my colors. Hardly a
> savings.
> I'm now on my second set and can see I have about 1/3 more yellow than the
> rest of my colors. Who knows, by the time I use all the ink from this
> second set of cartridges, the yellow may be down to the same levels as the
> other colors. It's not a good assumption that individual cartridges
> automatically save you money. That type of mentality is exactly what the
> marketing folks love. Unless you are constantly printing say, a red logo,
> chances are you'll end up with just a little more yellow than the rest of
> the colors. Whether or not it's a fair trade off is up to the consumer.
> I'd rather just replace the whole thing and get a new printhead so I don't
> have to worry about the print head.
>
>
Yes, the norm is 'unequal' usage. It is a simple matter of how additive and
subtractive color printing work. You will tend to use more of one color than
others. If all of your colors are running out simultaneously, you are doing
some very out of the ordinary printing.
I prefer the single tanks with a quality printhead that also do not have to
worry about replacing.
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"PC Medic" <NOT@home.net> wrote in message
news:KxMgd.36122$_g6.10059@okepread03...
> I had to replace a single printer since switching to Canon several years
> ago. It was an S520, was 2 months out of warranty and after explaining
that
> the problem (paper feed) had been occuring intermittently for a few
months,
> but never bad enough to call about they sent me a replacement over-night
at
> no charge. Not only that it was a brand new later model i560 as they no
> longer stocked the S520 I was told.
You got lucky. My Canon BJC5000 was eight months old when the BC-21e
printhead failed. I didn't print much, and used only OEM cartridges. I
asked Canon what they could do, and they said I had to mail the old one back
at MY cost (and it's a big printer, bigger than the average printer) and
then they'd see if they can do anything. Why not just send me a printhead?
I threw the printer away, went to Costco and bought a HP DeskJet 930c. The
HP is a workhorse and some people claim 100,000+ pages from it - with a
cleaning/service at 50,000 pages. I'm at 4,000 pages so I expect to have
the printer for a long time to come. The 45/78 cartridge combo is excellent
and I don't need to replace the cartridges very often.
> No, no more than the life of a refrigerator is 12 months or a washer and
> dryer.
What was your point in mentioning the printhead was covered in the 12 month
warranty?
> It would be if I had ever experienced having to replace them so closely
> which I never have.
> And even if I did, I am still getting ALL I am paying for as I am not
> throwing away partially filled tanks.
Does it matter if your printhead fails in a few years? I'm willing to pay a
bit more for convenience, which in this case means I don't have to worry
about the printhead.
> But of course it is Canon's fault that your printhead failed after only 16
> months of 3rd party refills.
Where exactly does he blame Canon? I do see him blaming Canon for the
failure of his friend's printhead @ 5,000 pages after using OEM ink, which
is definitely understandable.
As far as yields for the cartridges, I'll do a quick comparison between my
HP 930c and my i560. I replace the cartridges in my HP about every 8 months
when I used it as my primary printer - the color is rated at 900 pages
(double capacity) and the black is rated up to 933 pages. I do a lot of
text printing. On the Canon, I've gone through 2.5 black cartridges in
eight months, as well as almost two sets of color cartridges. Costs for the
HP are $50 (double capacity color) +$ 21 = $71 and the Canon is $30 ($12 x
2.5) + $40.50 ($27 x 1.5) = $70.50. Like I said, this is based on my usage.
It's a hassle on the Canon to keep changing cartridges so often, once every
eight months sounds good to me.
BTW, I also owned a Canon i320. It failed a few months after the warranty
had expired. I stored it for a month before giving it to a relative, and it
just would not print ANYTHING. Multiple deep cleanings yielded nothing. I
stored my HP 930c for about four months before giving it to another relative
to borrow, and it worked like a charm right out of the box. My storing of
the printer is what killed it, but I mean, one month? I guess if anybody
plans on moving, you might as well throw away the Canon printer
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
PC Medic wrote:
>And I currently own 5 Canon printers 2 of which are over 4 years old and
>NEVER had a printhead issue.
>I also use 3 of these in heavy printing within our church and estimate over
>8-10,000 pages have passed through them.
I know someone with a Canon s520 as well, and it has been going strong
for a long time too. That's part of the reason I was willing to try
Canon. But that does not negate the fact that we're starting to hear of
printhead failures for printers that were supposed to last for years.
>Please point me to these claims. And more importantly the place it states
>this now (or ever) in their warranty or any printer manufactures warranty.
It's well known that Canon promoted the i-series as such. Contact Canon
for the info, or simply read any review.
They have since changed their claims, and now say the life is expected
to be 5,000-10,000 pages depending on printer model.
> You should look into failure vs units sold
>sometime and see just how low they are.
So you have inside knowledge of this from Canon? I tried to get more
info from them, but they were unwilling to share such info.
Perhaps you can enlighten us.
>But of course it is Canon's fault that your printhead failed after only 16
>months of 3rd party refills.
You failed to catch the part where I said a friend's i550 also failed
using Canon ink tanks. So yes, it _IS_ Canon's fault.
Canon makes great cameras and I have thousands invested in glass, but
I've been soured on their printers and won't try them again. I hear
mostly bad experiences, and only one case (s520) where they like the
printer...so there it is...
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"xNokia3390x" <ofc2-ivom@spamex.com> wrote in message
news:ixSgd.25865$hN1.13062@twister.socal.rr.com...
> "PC Medic" <NOT@home.net> wrote in message
> news:KxMgd.36122$_g6.10059@okepread03...
>> I had to replace a single printer since switching to Canon several years
>> ago. It was an S520, was 2 months out of warranty and after explaining
> that
>> the problem (paper feed) had been occuring intermittently for a few
> months,
>> but never bad enough to call about they sent me a replacement over-night
> at
>> no charge. Not only that it was a brand new later model i560 as they no
>> longer stocked the S520 I was told.
>
> You got lucky. My Canon BJC5000 was eight months old when the BC-21e
> printhead failed. I didn't print much, and used only OEM cartridges. I
> asked Canon what they could do, and they said I had to mail the old one
> back
> at MY cost (and it's a big printer, bigger than the average printer) and
> then they'd see if they can do anything. Why not just send me a
> printhead?
No I did not get lucky, I am referring to a unit released within the past 4
years that has a warranty which covered the printhead.
You are referring to an older printer with old technology and a 'consumable'
printhead which carried no warranty. I seriously doubt they meant for you to
send the entire printer to check a consumable printhead when all they would
need is the printhead.
> I threw the printer away, went to Costco and bought a HP DeskJet 930c.
> The
> HP is a workhorse and some people claim 100,000+ pages from it - with a
> cleaning/service at 50,000 pages. I'm at 4,000 pages so I expect to have
> the printer for a long time to come. The 45/78 cartridge combo is
> excellent
> and I don't need to replace the cartridges very often.
>
I'm happy that your happy.
>> No, no more than the life of a refrigerator is 12 months or a washer and
>> dryer.
>
> What was your point in mentioning the printhead was covered in the 12
> month
> warranty?
>
If it needs to be explained to you, then it probably does not matter as
chances are you would not undersatnd (or admit it if you did)
>> It would be if I had ever experienced having to replace them so closely
>> which I never have.
>> And even if I did, I am still getting ALL I am paying for as I am not
>> throwing away partially filled tanks.
>
> Does it matter if your printhead fails in a few years? I'm willing to pay
> a
> bit more for convenience, which in this case means I don't have to worry
> about the printhead.
>
>> But of course it is Canon's fault that your printhead failed after only
>> 16
>> months of 3rd party refills.
>
> Where exactly does he blame Canon? I do see him blaming Canon for the
> failure of his friend's printhead @ 5,000 pages after using OEM ink, which
> is definitely understandable.
>
> As far as yields for the cartridges, I'll do a quick comparison between my
> HP 930c and my i560. I replace the cartridges in my HP about every 8
> months
> when I used it as my primary printer - the color is rated at 900 pages
> (double capacity) and the black is rated up to 933 pages. I do a lot of
> text printing. On the Canon, I've gone through 2.5 black cartridges in
> eight months, as well as almost two sets of color cartridges. Costs for
> the
> HP are $50 (double capacity color) +$ 21 = $71 and the Canon is $30 ($12 x
> 2.5) + $40.50 ($27 x 1.5) = $70.50. Like I said, this is based on my
> usage.
> It's a hassle on the Canon to keep changing cartridges so often, once
> every
> eight months sounds good to me.
>
> BTW, I also owned a Canon i320. It failed a few months after the warranty
> had expired. I stored it for a month before giving it to a relative, and
> it
> just would not print ANYTHING. Multiple deep cleanings yielded nothing.
> I
> stored my HP 930c for about four months before giving it to another
> relative
> to borrow, and it worked like a charm right out of the box. My storing of
> the printer is what killed it, but I mean, one month? I guess if anybody
> plans on moving, you might as well throw away the Canon printer
>
I don't know, I have several, some which get used very infrequently and
never had a problem nor do I have to run all these cleanings. Now you don't
suppose you got a bad one? Nah...that could never happen. I mean really a
manufacturer sell millions of units and have some exhibit problems! That
simply can't be. By the way, did you hear the news that HP has closed their
call center and will be discontinuing technical support because you have
never had an issue with their printer!
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote in message news
ZedndYpE6p0YR7cRVn-1w@golden.net...
> PC Medic wrote:
>
>>And I currently own 5 Canon printers 2 of which are over 4 years old and
>>NEVER had a printhead issue.
>>I also use 3 of these in heavy printing within our church and estimate
>>over
>>8-10,000 pages have passed through them.
>
> I know someone with a Canon s520 as well, and it has been going strong
> for a long time too. That's part of the reason I was willing to try
> Canon. But that does not negate the fact that we're starting to hear of
> printhead failures for printers that were supposed to last for years.
>
No but what does is the fact of where most of this comes from.
What percentage of consumers do you suppose visit a site or newsgroup to
tell others of their positive experience with a product?
What percent do you think report this positive experience to friends or
family members unless asked 'how do you like your brand X product'?
Now how many do you think convey negative experiences to these same groups
without being asked?
>>Please point me to these claims. And more importantly the place it states
>>this now (or ever) in their warranty or any printer manufactures warranty.
>
> It's well known that Canon promoted the i-series as such. Contact Canon
> for the info, or simply read any review.
>
> They have since changed their claims, and now say the life is expected
> to be 5,000-10,000 pages depending on printer model.
>
Never have I seen any such claim, care to point out a reference to one. Care
to point out the Canon literature that states 5k-10k page life?
>> You should look into failure vs units sold
>>sometime and see just how low they are.
>
> So you have inside knowledge of this from Canon? I tried to get more
> info from them, but they were unwilling to share such info.
>
May want to watch trade publications. While it takes compilation of
different resource articles, it is not hard to get accurate approximations.
And I am not referring to just Canon.
> Perhaps you can enlighten us.
>
>>But of course it is Canon's fault that your printhead failed after only 16
>>months of 3rd party refills.
>
> You failed to catch the part where I said a friend's i550 also failed
> using Canon ink tanks. So yes, it _IS_ Canon's fault.
>
I did not fail nor ignore that part, it still proves no grand conspiracy to
manufacture products with the mythical timebomb that goes off rendering them
useless X number of months outside warranty. Products fail, it happens, but
it is a small (VERY SMALL) percentage of units sold.
> Canon makes great cameras and I have thousands invested in glass, but
> I've been soured on their printers and won't try them again. I hear
> mostly bad experiences, and only one case (s520) where they like the
> printer...so there it is...
I guess then you hear what you choose to hear as I alone have mentioned my
5+ good experiences.
I will agree with one thing you have said though. They do make good cameras.
I have an A70, Rebel 2000 and my new Digital Rebel which are best of the
best in my book.
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
PC Medic wrote:
>> So you have inside knowledge of this from Canon? I tried to get more
>> info from them, but they were unwilling to share such info.
>
>May want to watch trade publications. While it takes compilation of
>different resource articles, it is not hard to get accurate approximations.
>And I am not referring to just Canon.
Sorry, I don't work in the industry like you, and have little time to
follow it up.
Since you don't seem interested in providing any evidence yourself, you
can find your own references.
But I will repeat a hint (again)...read any review about Canon i-series
printers. If they don't mention the life expectancy of the printhead,
I'll poke a pencil in my eye. *
>>>But of course it is Canon's fault that your printhead failed after only 16
>>>months of 3rd party refills.
>>
>> You failed to catch the part where I said a friend's i550 also failed
>> using Canon ink tanks. So yes, it _IS_ Canon's fault.
>
>I did not fail nor ignore that part, it still proves no grand conspiracy to
>manufacture products with the mythical timebomb that goes off rendering them
>useless X number of months outside warranty. Products fail, it happens, but
>it is a small (VERY SMALL) percentage of units sold.
I'm sorry...I must be an idiot...I don't recall stating anything about a
"grand conspiracy".
Perhaps you can quote my words for me since my comprehension skills are
lacking?
>> Canon makes great cameras and I have thousands invested in glass, but
>> I've been soured on their printers and won't try them again. I hear
>> mostly bad experiences, and only one case (s520) where they like the
>> printer...so there it is...
>
>I guess then you hear what you choose to hear as I alone have mentioned my
>5+ good experiences.
I read what you wrote...but decided that bragging about my own positive
experiences with printer life does not greatly add to the discussion
about failures.
>I will agree with one thing you have said though. They do make good cameras.
>I have an A70, Rebel 2000 and my new Digital Rebel which are best of the
>best in my book.
I like Nikon too, but don't own and never will own, any of their glass
or bodies. Does that make me evil in some way? Perhaps it does, and if
so, then so be it...
* - ok, I'm not really going to do that.
Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
"Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote in message news:NdKdndT8vKo73RncRVn-qg@golden.net...
> PC Medic wrote:
>
>>> So you have inside knowledge of this from Canon? I tried to get more
>>> info from them, but they were unwilling to share such info.
>>
>>May want to watch trade publications. While it takes compilation of
>>different resource articles, it is not hard to get accurate
>>approximations.
>>And I am not referring to just Canon.
>
> Sorry, I don't work in the industry like you, and have little time to
> follow it up.
>
> Since you don't seem interested in providing any evidence yourself, you
> can find your own references.
>
> But I will repeat a hint (again)...read any review about Canon i-series
> printers. If they don't mention the life expectancy of the printhead,
> I'll poke a pencil in my eye. *
>
And I am sure all of these reviewers printed 5000-10000 pages to confirm
this.
This is also quite different than the implication that canon was making such
an absurd statement.
>>>>But of course it is Canon's fault that your printhead failed after only
>>>>16
>>>>months of 3rd party refills.
>>>
>>> You failed to catch the part where I said a friend's i550 also failed
>>> using Canon ink tanks. So yes, it _IS_ Canon's fault.
>>
>>I did not fail nor ignore that part, it still proves no grand conspiracy
>>to
>>manufacture products with the mythical timebomb that goes off rendering
>>them
>>useless X number of months outside warranty. Products fail, it happens,
>>but
>>it is a small (VERY SMALL) percentage of units sold.
>
> I'm sorry...I must be an idiot...I don't recall stating anything about a
> "grand conspiracy".
>
> Perhaps you can quote my words for me since my comprehension skills are
> lacking?
>
>>> Canon makes great cameras and I have thousands invested in glass, but
>>> I've been soured on their printers and won't try them again. I hear
>>> mostly bad experiences, and only one case (s520) where they like the
>>> printer...so there it is...
>>
>>I guess then you hear what you choose to hear as I alone have mentioned my
>>5+ good experiences.
>
> I read what you wrote...but decided that bragging about my own positive
> experiences with printer life does not greatly add to the discussion
> about failures.
>
>>I will agree with one thing you have said though. They do make good
>>cameras.
>>I have an A70, Rebel 2000 and my new Digital Rebel which are best of the
>>best in my book.
>
> I like Nikon too, but don't own and never will own, any of their glass
> or bodies. Does that make me evil in some way? Perhaps it does, and if
> so, then so be it...
>
>
> * - ok, I'm not really going to do that.
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