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DONNNNNT tell me they are not compatible...

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January 3, 2006 3:37:25 AM

Hello.

So the follwoing are the specs of my new rig [just a plan] :D  .

Are the follwing compatible with eachother?

MSI K8N NEO4-Platinum nForce4
OCZ DDR 1GB (2x512Mb) PC-3200 Dual Channel Gold C2 2-3-3-6
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ / 2.0 GHz
PNY Verto GeForce 7800GT 256MB
420W Enermax NOISETAKER
ANTEC p180 case
Maxtor DiamondMax 10 200 GB
Zalman cu heatsink

First of all ....is this a good nuff plan for games like Dom 3, CS: source, far Cry, Quake 4?

Alsoi been told that the 7800GT's performance will bottleneck due to the CPU...is that true? should i get a eVGA-Geforce 6800GS instead?

This whole machine is going to cost me around $1400-$1500 CAD.

More about : donnnnnt compatible

January 3, 2006 3:53:27 AM

The chip may be a slight bottlekneck in some games, but not enough to worry about. It is easy enough to fix that, by OCing that chip (they make it to 2.5 and beyond on stock cooling) or by picking up a faster chip, if you can afford it.
If you live in the west, you might want to check out anitec Thier prices are often good.
January 3, 2006 3:54:32 AM

Do you really need those memory sticks? You should pick Corsair ValueSelect since there is no difference in performance in most cases. Especially gaming.

The Maxtor Harddrive isn't a reliable disk. Pick a Seagate Barracuda or something.
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January 3, 2006 4:05:47 AM

they will at normal speeds however i have not seen a 3200 venice not hitting 2.5 GHz........... not hitting 2.5GHz is a myth for vennies..............

BTW

OCZ DDR 1GB (2x512Mb) PC-3200 Dual Channel Gold C2 2-3-3-6

is not really required and that like the guru said, cheaper vaule select ram from named brand (Corsair, OCZ, Gneil, etc.) is just as good as them expensive stuff if you don't OC, even if you do, they will not be that bad.....

if you wish to have some amazing OCes then get a DFI Lanparty UT NF4 Ultra-D and get some nice OCZ DDR 2x 512 kit EL gold VX that runs pc3200 on 3.2V with a amazing timing of 2-2-2-8
and they usually can be oced to pc4000 speeds easy

and get a s939 operton, single core hits 3.2 Ghz on air and some say on stock cooling... while dc hits 3Ghz on air and they are in the price range of a 3200 too

btw dfi board are not newbie friendly or ingorant friendly (the manual is 60 pages long and have like 6 languages, while there is lots and lots of options for overcloking and twreaking..... goto www.dfi-street.com for more info on this too if you want to get DFI) and the VX sticks requrire high voltage (VX= voltage extreme) so some mobo may not be compatable sicne that the mobo may not give enough juice to the sticks but sicne again DFI is made for OCing, that should not be a problem and the MSI one should be able to supply that much juice... (check to make sure though)
January 3, 2006 9:12:43 PM

Ye umm i could get some other memory sticks but im getting them for cheap. $169.CAD.

Also ye i realized the seagate Baracuda hard drive will be a much better choice.

Jus a quick questiion....im getting the following two cards for the following prices.....which is better[ keep in mind value and performance]

PNY Verto GeForce 7800GT 256MB $395 CAD
ATI Radeon X850 XT $329.99 CAD

Thanks
January 3, 2006 9:26:05 PM

They should be close in performance. Just depends what games you play nvidia better for open gl games(doom3 etc) ati better at direct X games (hl2 etc).
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January 3, 2006 10:28:29 PM

uch MSI, unreliable.
January 3, 2006 10:54:25 PM

When are the AMD M2 socket systems available - I will wait until the M2 is out before my next upgrade and skip socket 939 completly... I think they are but a month or two away.
January 4, 2006 1:43:52 AM

The M2 now AM2 will be out around late April, early May.
January 4, 2006 8:18:50 AM

Quote:
Ye umm i could get some other memory sticks but im getting them for cheap. $169.CAD.

Also ye i realized the seagate Baracuda hard drive will be a much better choice.

Jus a quick questiion....im getting the following two cards for the following prices.....which is better[ keep in mind value and performance]

PNY Verto GeForce 7800GT 256MB $395 CAD
ATI Radeon X850 XT $329.99 CAD

Thanks


I would pick the 7800GT.
January 5, 2006 3:45:40 AM

Ye ......its worth waiting for...since there is going to be a price drop for socket 939 processors...
January 5, 2006 4:40:32 AM

Quote:

Alsoi been told that the 7800GT's performance will bottleneck due to the CPU...is that true? should i get a eVGA-Geforce 6800GS instead?


The 3200+ is a very good CPU.

Your CPU will be a little bottleneck in some games like Half-Life 2 BUT since those games are so easy to run anyway it doesn't matter.

When it comes to more demanding games like Quake 4 the video card will be the bottleneck.

If we take a look at Half-Life 2 (The most CPU limited game):

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/half-life_2_athlon_...

Both your CPU and Video card is better than the ones used i the benchmark. Which means you can run 1600x1200 at over 70FPS. Which is a good framrate. If you have a LCD monitor you will probably run the game at 1280x1024 increasing the FPS even more.




If we take a look at Battlefield 2 (another CPU limited game):

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/cpu-games2...

You will see that the difference between your 3200+ and a Athlon FX-57 is 0.25%. As you can see you CPU is really good for gaming.


FEAR speaks for itself:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/cpu-games2...


Serious Sam 2:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/cpu-games2...
Difference between your 3200+ and the very expensive FX-57:
Only 6%.


Quake 4:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/cpu-games2...
Difference between your 3200+ and the very expensive FX-57:
Only 3%.


So it's a performance difference of 0-6% between a 3200+ and a FX-57.

Answer: Go with the 7800GT.
January 5, 2006 6:11:26 AM

Quote:
The chip may be a slight bottlekneck in some games, but not enough to worry about. It is easy enough to fix that, by OCing that chip (they make it to 2.5 and beyond on stock cooling) or by picking up a faster chip, if you can afford it.
If you live in the west, you might want to check out anitec Thier prices are often good.


What is bottleneck? This is dumb question but I havent been up to par lately with coms, even though I been reading a lot of forums because I want to get a new PC. Is it like Lagging while playing games or little hiccups? :oops: 
January 5, 2006 7:55:59 AM

Quote:
The chip may be a slight bottlekneck in some games, but not enough to worry about. It is easy enough to fix that, by OCing that chip (they make it to 2.5 and beyond on stock cooling) or by picking up a faster chip, if you can afford it.
If you live in the west, you might want to check out anitec Thier prices are often good.


What is bottleneck? This is dumb question but I havent been up to par lately with coms, even though I been reading a lot of forums because I want to get a new PC. Is it like Lagging while playing games or little hiccups? :oops: 

A bottleneck is the slowest part of the system, the thing that is causing the restriction in performance at that point in time. A PC in general will only go as fast as it's slowest component, for example if you had the latest CPU and a 3 year old graphics card whatever you did to improve CPU performance you would see no benefit to games as the graphics card is the bottleneck, get it!
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January 5, 2006 8:30:47 AM

We understand the concept, but that concept is wrong, so let me be a bit more abusive about it:

YOU'RE WRONG!

OK, an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro is something like, if I remember right, 5%-15% faster than an 8500 on a K6-III 450. Now, who would run such a new card on such an old system? Tom's Hardware did, just for testing purposes. And of course, to PROVE YOU WRONG!

So the deal is, a card that should be TWICE as fast ended up being only a little faster, because the CPU was, so damned weak. But it was still faster.

And being that it was still faster, you have to consider that the results were much better on an Athlon 1000! And that the results were still better on an XP 2400+!

Now if we look at true bottle necks, you can increase the rate of flow through an orifice if you increase pressure...and the point I'm making is, any modern CPU will benefit noticebly from a noticeably faster graphics card. While your returns might not be as great when upgrading cards on an A64 3000+ as they would be on an A64 4000+, they'll still be great enough to make it worthwhile.

It's not until you get to TRUELY OUTDATED CPU's that you reach the point of substantially diminished returns.

Thanks, and BTW, endyen is a hardware genius. Were I a woman, I'd kiss the guy. As it is, he already has several male forum members who would be willing to do it as well...just not me.
January 5, 2006 9:11:09 PM

Quote:
We understand the concept, but that concept is wrong, so let me be a bit more abusive about it:

YOU'RE WRONG!

OK, an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro is something like, if I remember right, 5%-15% faster than an 8500 on a K6-III 450. Now, who would run such a new card on such an old system? Tom's Hardware did, just for testing purposes. And of course, to PROVE YOU WRONG!

So the deal is, a card that should be TWICE as fast ended up being only a little faster, because the CPU was, so damned weak. But it was still faster.

And being that it was still faster, you have to consider that the results were much better on an Athlon 1000! And that the results were still better on an XP 2400+!

Now if we look at true bottle necks, you can increase the rate of flow through an orifice if you increase pressure...and the point I'm making is, any modern CPU will benefit noticebly from a noticeably faster graphics card. While your returns might not be as great when upgrading cards on an A64 3000+ as they would be on an A64 4000+, they'll still be great enough to make it worthwhile.

It's not until you get to TRUELY OUTDATED CPU's that you reach the point of substantially diminished returns.

Thanks, and BTW, endyen is a hardware genius. Were I a woman, I'd kiss the guy. As it is, he already has several male forum members who would be willing to do it as well...just not me.


I think I get it. So if you look at my wonderful super duper spec's on my pc (look at my signature). If I were to get a better graphics card, I won't experience too much of bottle neck??? :twisted: :?:
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January 5, 2006 9:33:01 PM

LOL, you already have a powerful graphics card. In DirectX 9 games, it will operate in DX8 mode. And with the reduced overhead of DX8, it could probably keep up with a GeForce 6600, maybe even a GT! And that's not even getting into the processor!

OK, so say a 6800GT would give a guy with a P4 3.0GHz a 20% increase in performance. Well, you might not get 20%, but you could expect a noticeable increase anyway. At least 10% methinks.
January 5, 2006 10:43:27 PM

Quote:
We understand the concept, but that concept is wrong, so let me be a bit more abusive about it:

YOU'RE WRONG!

OK, an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro is something like, if I remember right, 5%-15% faster than an 8500 on a K6-III 450. Now, who would run such a new card on such an old system? Tom's Hardware did, just for testing purposes. And of course, to PROVE YOU WRONG!

So the deal is, a card that should be TWICE as fast ended up being only a little faster, because the CPU was, so damned weak. But it was still faster.

And being that it was still faster, you have to consider that the results were much better on an Athlon 1000! And that the results were still better on an XP 2400+!

Now if we look at true bottle necks, you can increase the rate of flow through an orifice if you increase pressure...and the point I'm making is, any modern CPU will benefit noticebly from a noticeably faster graphics card. While your returns might not be as great when upgrading cards on an A64 3000+ as they would be on an A64 4000+, they'll still be great enough to make it worthwhile.

It's not until you get to TRUELY OUTDATED CPU's that you reach the point of substantially diminished returns.

Thanks, and BTW, endyen is a hardware genius. Were I a woman, I'd kiss the guy. As it is, he already has several male forum members who would be willing to do it as well...just not me.


I think I get it. So if you look at my wonderful super duper spec's on my pc (look at my signature). If I were to get a better graphics card, I won't experience too much of bottle neck??? :twisted: :?:

Ok cashman. DANG that many post. I wonder if you know anything about computers or just talk a lot lol. jk. Anyways I want to get a new pc. I think i'm decideing on a Operton 170 or x2 4400. I do plan on OCing but not right away. I hear Operton is better because it's goes through a harsher test before being put out into the market. I do want to game, but also encode, edit movies, edit music, and other multi-tasking and multi-threading stuff. What do you think??? :twisted: :?:
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January 5, 2006 10:46:44 PM

Generally speaking users have had better overclocking results using an opteron than an equivalent A64 or X2. Yes, I think Opterons meet a higher standard of validation.
January 6, 2006 1:18:48 AM

Hmm...

Epox or DFI

I have an Ultra-D. Great for overclocks.

I also have a 3200+ and an eVGA 7800GT.
The CPU isnt as much of a bottleneck as you think it maybe.
Then again, I love it...overclocks like a sob.

1.55v, HTx4 RAM 2-3-3-6(2.8v) HTT(FSB) 260 x9= 2340mhz
Doesnt break 40C load Prime95 blend for 5 hours straight.
I'm sure I could go much higher as well, but I hate using the stock cooler
So that kinda says something about the capabilities of these paticular chips.

Hmm, Opty 146 or 148. Shoot for CABYE 0542...have the best chance of hitting 3GHZ.
January 6, 2006 10:22:21 PM

Thanks for all the replies peeps. Much appreciated.

So...as a reply to my very first post i was told that MSI board are un reliable
....if i switch it with a DFI boards or ASUS which one will be a good pick....and what board will work the best with the specs i have posted in the first post ...

Thanks.
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January 6, 2006 10:39:32 PM

What, you didn't get the free motherboard with your 7800GT? That doesn't make any sense!
January 7, 2006 5:48:57 AM

Quote:
What, you didn't get the free motherboard with your 7800GT? That doesn't make any sense!


Hey I have one more question. I noticed that Opertons are 1GB FSB and the x2's are 2GB FSB. Does this make any difference in performence? And why arent the opertons 2 GB FSB as well? :roll:
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January 7, 2006 5:54:35 AM

Actually it's the same thing. The HT bus runs at a multiple of 200MHz, in this case 5x, and has full bandwidth in both directions. So 5x200=1000, but they sometimes call it 2000 because it's bi-directional. A lot of busses in the PC have to share bandwidth in both directions.

So calling it 2000 is kind of like saying I live near a 140MPH freeway rather than a 70MPH one-way road. But in reality the 140MPH is just 70MPH in each direction.
January 7, 2006 6:31:19 AM

Just some explaination for people who want the real story:

The whole thing started with the first bi-directional CPUs. The manufacturers had to explain the difference between a uni-directional and a bi-directional bus. Because if they just said both CPUs had a bus frequency of 100MHz it wouldn't be fair since the bi-directional bus had the double speed. So they started to use the "effective frequency" instead.

And today if you want a fair comparision with Intel and older AMD CPUs you have to use the "effective frequency".
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January 7, 2006 7:25:09 AM

What's wrong with my accurate explanation? I did say that a lot of other busses have to share up and down bandwidth while the HT bus (internal by implication) doesn't.
January 7, 2006 10:38:18 AM

I didn't say you were wrong. I just added a bit of information ;) 
January 8, 2006 7:42:12 AM

Quote:
Actually it's the same thing. The HT bus runs at a multiple of 200MHz, in this case 5x, and has full bandwidth in both directions. So 5x200=1000, but they sometimes call it 2000 because it's bi-directional. A lot of busses in the PC have to share bandwidth in both directions.

So calling it 2000 is kind of like saying I live near a 140MPH freeway rather than a 70MPH one-way road. But in reality the 140MPH is just 70MPH in each direction.

Thanks for clearing that up. So does that apply the samething for Intel 800FSB? So it would be only 400FSB? 8)
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January 8, 2006 11:10:04 AM

The Intel 800MHz bus is only 200MHz, and the AMD HT bus is only 200MHz :p 
January 8, 2006 12:55:07 PM

That Mobo is very buggy........I'd use a different one if I were you and use at lest a 3500+......not much price difference but a lot better performance difference between the 2
January 8, 2006 5:09:22 PM

Quote:
Actually it's the same thing. The HT bus runs at a multiple of 200MHz, in this case 5x, and has full bandwidth in both directions. So 5x200=1000, but they sometimes call it 2000 because it's bi-directional. A lot of busses in the PC have to share bandwidth in both directions.

So calling it 2000 is kind of like saying I live near a 140MPH freeway rather than a 70MPH one-way road. But in reality the 140MPH is just 70MPH in each direction.

Thanks for clearing that up. So does that apply the samething for Intel 800FSB? So it would be only 400FSB? 8)

The P4 bus is quad pumped and 64 bit wide, the 800MHz bus runs as 200MHz real speed, but can send data 4 x every clock cycle... The up and down traffic are shared on the same bandwith.

Hypertransport is double data rate and runs at a REAL speed of 1GHz on AMD A64's (to be increased to 1.4GHz come socket M2) and can send and receive at the same time, so I guess you could get away with saying it runs at 4GHz, but HT on A64's is only 16bit.

So to work out total bandwith of the 2 platforms...

Intel = 800 million x 64 = 6.4 GB/s
AMD = (2000 million up + 2000 million down) x 16 = 8GB/s
AMD M2 = (2800 million up + 2800 million down) x 16 = 11.2 GB/s

Also remember Intel has to push all memory access across that same bus, where as AMD has the on chip memory controller.
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January 8, 2006 8:10:13 PM

No, you "would say" 2GHz, it's 1000MHz and bi-directional. 1000x2=4.

But you really have to be CAREFULL in making such marketing statements, because some busses are more dependant that others on that bi-directional nature. Take the PCIe x16 slot, it's bi-directional but for the most part only uses the bus in one direction.

To be accurate, calling something 2000MHz when it's really 1000MHz in two directions is misleading and completely innaccurate. It's like saying your 2.4GHz telephone is 4.8GHz because you have bi-directional communication, yet if someone was to tune into the phone's communication frequency they'd find both the transmitter and receiver on the 2.4GHz signal.
January 9, 2006 2:03:50 AM

What mobo are u talking about MSI?......because i jsut read soe reviews on the DFI lanparty UT nf-4 Ultra D and it sounds perfect for overclocking and stuff. 8) so im thinkin about getting that instead.

About the 3200+ ive been told that i can easily OC it to 2.45 if not 2.2

thats good nuff. Ive changed my plasn about the vid card....changing it to eVGA-nVIDIA 6800GS due to budget issues heh.
[/u]
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January 9, 2006 3:12:05 AM

You could afford a 7800GT if you got the eVGA deal with the free eVGA motherboard.
January 9, 2006 3:25:50 AM

Quote:
You could afford a 7800GT if you got the eVGA deal with the free eVGA motherboard.

How good is the eVGA MOBO? Will it work good with the OPty 170? Does the mobo OC good as well? Any my last question, does it have sata2 capability, ata/100, sli, and what not? Because I might go that route. I was thinking of getting the ABIT A8N SLI Guru(I think it's called that. Not 100% sure). What is your take on that mobo with the OPTY 170? Good? :twisted:
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January 9, 2006 3:55:40 AM

It's a good board, fast and powerfull, a great SLI solution, same chipset SATA/ATA controller, etc. It's a rebranded Jetway 939GT4-SLI, a board highly praised by Anandtech. I know the Opty 170 will work on it, but I'm not sure the BIOS will know that it's an Opty, you'll have to check around.

All nF4 boards support the Opty, but full recognition is reliant on BIOS. According to This Forum the 170 works fine.
January 9, 2006 6:42:57 PM

For whatever it's worth...the Jetway board erm hasn't been too friendly to me. In terms of oc'ing it was about as useful as my old a8n-sli deluxe...dropping out around 240fsb. It had issues with my pat xblk too... I've tested a 3000+, 3500+ and a 3800+ x2 in it, with equal results. A thorough search of different forums provided the answers i was looking for. Jetway board suxor for oc'n and with pretty much all TCCD chips. It's a very small % of people that are getting good oc's with it. My a8n-sli prem on the other hand topped out at about 330 on the same ram with a lower multi. Now, i have tried other kinds of ram, with the same or similarly low results: such as kingston hyperX, and ocz plat 2gb. You'd think dividers would help...meh ( >< )...So anyway, yea that's a great deal, getting the free mobo is still a FREE mobo. Keep it and resell it on ebay or somethin, then get a different mobo.

If you're an avid oc'er DFI is definately the best/only way to go...If you're a novice, you'll have one hellova headache on your hands trying to get it completely stable. If you're going to go with the DFI, go out and make DFI's forums a fav now on a second machine so you can troubleshoot your settings when it isn't staying up long enough to get explorer running.

If you're a novice oc'er, i'd recommend you go with Asus or Epox and a modest OC. Asus's best oc'er is the a8n-sli premium, but has an issue with cpu voltage, where it won't keep a constant voltage, which can and will limit the life on your cpu (maybe from 10 years to 8 or something...but it is still extra stress you don't necessarily need). Epox has it's issues too, but is a fairly consistant oc'er when matched with compliant ram. Both of these boards have been known to hit 300+, and i personally have hit 330 with the asus, which i'm fairly certain was a limit of the tccd ram i have.

GLuck

edit: Rather then make this in to two threads, i just added the xtra info for the guy that was looking for advice on mobo's...
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January 9, 2006 7:07:57 PM

Oh, I bitched in the review about what a lousy overclocker it is, 240 bus. But 240 bus is fine for many people, and the performance is great!

Remember that the average Venice 3200+ gets around 2450MHz without going nuts on voltage and cooling. Well, 240 is 2400, close enough when you consider how much money it will cost you to get a slightly higher overclock.
January 9, 2006 7:53:36 PM

Ok, yea if he's not looking for a massive oc then 240 is a good spot to shoot for...but on the other hand, if he's ONLY shooting for 240, that allows for almost every nf4 mobo out there and he might as well pick one that gets a little more constant bios support/updates. I haven't been very happy with the Jetway support there either (although it WAS based in the US...cali somewhere...i had it written down at one point). I had a support tech point me to a bios update for my Jetway that didn't frigging work, which brought my 3000+ rig down for a month and a half while he tried to find me a replacement bios chip...I was more then a lil irritated, because i only called because the bios that was listed didn't have a board specified for it, so i asked him what it was, and he said OH, that's it, that's the latest update...anyway, he blamed the sofware, said it malfunctioned while it was loading the update...even though it updated it just fine (ie no errors...then rebooted with the command line op, when it was done). Truth is, he didn't know what it was, and i shouldn't have trusted him. When i was asking him about my 1T vs 2T timing issue with the TCCD, he said memory hasn't ever been able to even use 1T timings before the 64bit amd's...which is crap, there has been a setting (however nearly useless it might be) since at least the xp's...and the usage of ddr in general. <rant rant rant> <wipes saliva from chin...>

LOL guess i'm still irritated by that.
a b à CPUs
January 9, 2006 8:15:10 PM

Yes, well, my board works fine and...eVGA is practically giving the things away.
January 11, 2006 1:07:15 AM

Can' beat DFI for overclocking...........I'd go for it for sure.......Good luck with your purchase :D 
January 11, 2006 6:13:40 AM

ye thanks.....Im actaulylgetting someone to do the verclocking for me..so i dont think it should be that bad.
!