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What is the deal with the prices of 6800 GT/Ultra AGP cards?

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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January 18, 2006 7:59:37 PM

Good lord. Used ones are still going for shatloads on ebay. GT's from $250 to +$300, and ultras for +300...

That's it. My card is going up this weekend. I can buy a used 7800 GT for $250 and MAKE MONEY to boot for chrissake.

[EDIT] On second thought, screw the 7800 GT. I'll get an X1800 XL. At least then I can use AA when HDR is enabled...[/EDIT]


God, I love this AGP + PCI-express motherboard. Ah, the 939dual-SATA2.

Best upgrade purchase I ever made...
January 18, 2006 8:34:49 PM

luckey :(  wish i got one so i could do the same... thats such luck/skillz :p 
January 18, 2006 8:40:34 PM

Is that an ASROCK mobo you have?
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January 18, 2006 8:42:05 PM

Yeah, ASROCK.

One of maybe two or three motherboards out there that can use both AGP and PCI-express videocards with no performance penalty on either bus.

Got it because I wanted to keep my 6800 when I upgraded.
January 18, 2006 8:44:08 PM

Quote:
Good lord. Used ones are still going for shatloads on ebay. GT's from $250 to +$300, and ultras for +300...

That's it. My card is going up this weekend. I can buy a used 7800 GT for $250 and MAKE MONEY to boot for chrissake.

[EDIT] On second thoguht, screw the 7800 GT. I'll get an X1800 XL. At least then I can use AA when HDR is enabled...[/EDIT]


God, I love this AGP + PCI-express motherboard. Ah, the 939dual-SATA2.

Best upgrade purchase I ever made...

You mean you can't use multisampling AA with HDR enabled.
Seeing as you currently can't use multi sampling anti aliasing anyways, I don't think it will be a problem.

Quote:
Only ATI's hardware can perform multisample FSAA on an FP16 render target. For this reason, many game developers have opted to avoid such an approach. Also, while both NV and ATI hardware can do floating point blends, only NVIDIA hardware can perform hardware filtering on floating point render targets.
January 18, 2006 8:51:02 PM

ahh another boring day at work... should i buy a psp or xbox360?
January 19, 2006 2:01:18 AM

Quote:

You mean you can't use multisampling AA with HDR enabled.
Seeing as you currently can't use multi sampling anti aliasing anyways, I don't think it will be a problem.


I don't think I do. I pretty much mean what I said, that the 7800 can't do AA with OpenEXR HDR on. That's what I've always heard until now.

Even in a recent test in Firingsquad.com:

"When we move to tests with anti-aliasing turned on, things change substantially. Although the GeForce 7800GTX is one of the fastest performing GPUs in real-world games it cannot do HDR and anti-aliasing simultaneously. ATI can. As a result, NVIDIA puts in a zero score for the HDR/SM3.0 with anti-aliasing tests."

They couldn't get it to work with HDR at all. Here's a link:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/3dmark_06/page10.asp
January 19, 2006 3:39:47 PM

Quote:

You mean you can't use multisampling AA with HDR enabled.
Seeing as you currently can't use multi sampling anti aliasing anyways, I don't think it will be a problem.


I don't think I do. I pretty much mean what I said, that the 7800 can't do AA with OpenEXR HDR on. That's what I've always heard until now.

Even in a recent test in Firingsquad.com:

"When we move to tests with anti-aliasing turned on, things change substantially. Although the GeForce 7800GTX is one of the fastest performing GPUs in real-world games it cannot do HDR and anti-aliasing simultaneously. ATI can. As a result, NVIDIA puts in a zero score for the HDR/SM3.0 with anti-aliasing tests."

They couldn't get it to work with HDR at all. Here's a link:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/3dmark_06/page10.asp

I know you don't use mutli sampling. The 6800 Ultra does not support it.

Considering I play Half-Life2: Lost coast and Age of Empires III with HDR, I think it seems to work just fine.
January 19, 2006 4:50:40 PM

Quote:
I know you don't use mutli sampling. The 6800 Ultra does not support it.

Considering I play Half-Life2: Lost coast and Age of Empires III with HDR, I think it seems to work just fine.

Umm... THe 6800ultra DOES support multi-sampling. Every nVidia card since the GeForce 4 (both Ti and MX) used multi-sampling. The only alternative is super-sampling, which was largely discontinued due to it being such a resource hog compared to multi-sampling. It briefly made a return in the GeForce 6, as one of the components of "x8S." That was because that super-sampling, unlike multi-sampling, works on all pixels, not just polygon edges, so it means it also applies to the alpha-edges of textures, that don't line up with the polygon edges. (think chain-link fences or leaves) It was then scrapped in favor of a better method, the "transparency super-sampling" in the 7800 series. However, along the way, all nVidia cards have supported multi-sample AA in x2, x3, and x4 modes.
January 19, 2006 4:52:42 PM

Quote:

I know you don't use mutli sampling. The 6800 Ultra does not support it.

Considering I play Half-Life2: Lost coast and Age of Empires III with HDR, I think it seems to work just fine.


We're not talking about the 6800, although it has the same limitations as the 7800 series; can't do AA with OpenEXR HDR.

HL2: Lost Coast doesn't use the OpenEXR method of HDR, so your evidence is irrelevant.
Far Cry and other newer titles do, however.

If Age of Empires 3 used OpenEXR, then chances are you're not getting any AA even if you have it set in the driver.

Do a little research and I believe you'll agree that you're mistaken.
January 19, 2006 5:07:44 PM

Quote:

I know you don't use mutli sampling. The 6800 Ultra does not support it.

Considering I play Half-Life2: Lost coast and Age of Empires III with HDR, I think it seems to work just fine.


We're not talking about the 6800, although it has the same limitations as the 7800 series; can't do AA with OpenEXR HDR.

HL2: Lost Coast doesn't use the OpenEXR method of HDR, so your evidence is irrelevant.
Far Cry and other newer titles do, however.

If Age of Empires 3 used OpenEXR, then chances are you're not getting any AA even if you have it set in the driver.

Do a little research and I believe you'll agree that you're mistaken.
You corrected me about Half-Life2, however I use the in-game antialiasing settings for Age of Empires III. Accoding to anandtech.com the Geforce 7800 series cards are unable to use multi sampling anti aliasing, as I've said before. Even if that's the case ATI still has a large advantage.
January 19, 2006 5:41:24 PM

Quote:
I trust anandtech more than you.


lol. Well you can trust and believe whomever you like, but that doesn't change the fact that every other reviewer out there has said that the 7800 series can't do AA & OpenEXR HDR at the same time.

Extreme Tech:
"Anti-aliasing is incompatible with HDR rendering, so we run our two test resolutions with and without anisotropic filtering instead."

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1830460,00.asp

HardOCP:
"It seems NVIDIA has finally greatly improved their FP16 framebuffer performance allowing high resolution HDR. This is good since it does not yet support Anti-Aliasing with it."

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Nzg0LDIw

And, as I mentioned, Firingsquad:
"When we move to tests with anti-aliasing turned on, things change substantially. Although the GeForce 7800GTX is one of the fastest performing GPUs in real-world games it cannot do HDR and anti-aliasing simultaneously. ATI can. As a result, NVIDIA puts in a zero score for the HDR/SM3.0 with anti-aliasing tests."

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/3dmark_06/page10.asp



So you keep trusting whomever you like, although what is more likely is that you misread, or that they simply meant all AA and not just Multisampling AA does not work with HDR. But since you haven't provided a link it's hard to point out the discrepancy.

If it does work with Supersampling it's funny that Nvidia let all these sites spread FUD about their product, they supply the cards and read the reviews - especially the ones made by reputable sites as above - this is kind of a glaring error for them to let go.
January 19, 2006 7:37:25 PM

Well then, I guess I was wrong. Happy? However I am able to use some form of antialiasing in Age of Empires 3 with HDR.
January 19, 2006 7:48:07 PM

How would your rightness or wrongness possibly affect my happiness?

I simply wanted to get to the bottom of the issue. If you were right I'd be pleased to learn that the 7800 series could use Supersampling with HDR turned on.

I just haven't heard that before, and all the stuff I've seen and read indicates otherwise.

That doesn't mean I know everything mind you, it just means I wasn't aware of conflicting reports until you mentioned it, and I am still interested in reading the conflicting report at anand if you can find the link.

Have you tried running the game with HDR on and AA enabled, then disabling AA and trying again? Did you see a difference?

Then turn HDR off and repeat the excersise; is there a difference between AA & no AA?

Try it and take some screenshots. I am interested in your results. I don't have AOE3 so I can't try it with my 6800, but you have the opportunity to do a little research.
January 19, 2006 8:26:05 PM

I looked around a bit but I couldn't find any evidence of AOE3 using OpenEXR one way or the other. Odd.

Thanks for looking into that. Obviously you've got some AA working there. The lighting looks identical in either picture, but if you were reverting back to SM 2.0 you'd see a difference for sure, the X800 series screenshots I've seen look vastly different to SM 3.0 shots.

Well, either everybody's wrong about the 7800 and Supersampling or AOE3's using something similar to HalfLife 2's implementation.

I'm surprised there's not more info about this out there.

Interesting stuff to be sure. I should ask around on the AOE forums to see what the deal is...
January 19, 2006 10:13:31 PM

No problem. SO Haha you were wrong! Nah I'm just joking.

It is interesting, because I have Age of Empires 3 on my 6800 GT system, and it can use AA, but runs slower. Perhaps Anandtech is correct? Although I did have multi sampling Anti Aliasing enabled, although you can't really tell if it's working correctly.
January 20, 2006 2:34:50 AM

I just bought a BFG 6800GS for 209. It's on the way here. Checkout newegg price for it. Seems like it's been on the market about a week. Can't wait to unlock the 4 extra pipes to have 16 pixelpipes!!!
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