pro audio digital recording

[bilmo]

Hi All. I'm new to this forum, and want to learn as much as I can about what to buy and where to begin building a PC for digital recording. multitrack recording, specifically.

and I haven't got a clue where to begin. I have 2 boxes now. both have Athlon XP 1800's and both have Elite ECS K75 something or other mobos.

I have it here somewhere. I have been told by many people whom I trust
that the Elite boards aren't the greatest.....

so, what is?

thanks. any feedback is much appreciated.

Bill :wannabe computer geek at large

 

[PCcashCow]

There are many ways to start Bob<----BILL SORRY :>. Your intent to do digital recording is a good starting point, so now I would have to say your 2 boxes of amd 1800s are some large(hot) paper weights in todays standards. But if you had to, you could put something together.

So whas your budget? What else would you be doing with it? How confident are you in doing a build yourself? If you not barebones sets may be the way to go.

--Cheers!

 

[bilmo]

<<There are many ways to start Bob>> it's Bill actually but what the
heck

<<<Your intent to do digital recording is a good starting point, so now I would have to say your 2 boxes of amd 1800s are some large(hot) paper weights in todays standards>>>

yes


<<But if you had to, you could put something together>>>

something a little slicker would be more fun I do believe.

<<<So whas your budget?>>>

around $600.00

<<<What else would you be doing with it?>>>

just recording. well, recording/editing/mixing etc...

<<<How confident are you in doing a build yourself?>>>

so so. I could use some help.

<<<If you not barebones sets may be the way to go>>>

yes, maybe. what I'm looking for is other musicians/engineers/producers
who can recommend a specific motherboard that lends itself to this type of
application well above average. and a processor with the same characteristics. AMD stuff, not Intel.

<<Cheers!>>

back at ya

 

[kentlowt]

Wow! Posted something similar in motherboard section with no response. I will be watching this thread as I am considering building a computer for the same purpose.

 

[bilmo]

Wow! Posted something similar in motherboard section with no response. I will be watching this thread as I am considering building a computer for the same purpose.

good deal! the more the merrier. I know a 'little' bit about the old socket A cpu's, but I have 2 cheezy Elite mobos. they work, but eh....

am seeking advice from a music guru type person

 

[bilmo]

<<<There are many ways to start Bob<----BILL SORRY>>>

no worries

 

[PCcashCow]

yes, maybe. what I'm looking for is other musicians/engineers/producers
who can recommend a specific motherboard that lends itself to this type of application well above average. and a processor with the same characteristics. AMD stuff, not Intel.

Sorry about the name!

Becuase you want to be above average money may be tight, but beucase your not concerned with graphics then you'll fit some nice sound and cpu power in there.

If you wanted to use as much of your old rigs as possible then you may be limited. Are they store bought cases or home builds?

If you can get way with using your current case then you can save some bucks.

Cheers

 

[nobly]

Well, lets start w/ some basics. Your budget is limited to 600, so building a brand new awesome computer might be a little hard. Of course if you don't game, that'll help since you don't need a great video card. Unless you spend a little more....

1) What are you going to be editing? Such as, music files? How long would they be? Are they going to be recorded in massive quality? Or CD - 44kHz? Are you giong to be encoding MP3's? AAC? Think WAV files - they're huge (A CD is like 700MB or so).

2) Are you planning on recording live music w/ your computer? Or just editing and maybe some play-around-with-it recording? Hooking up a mixer to it?

3) What do you mean by multitrack? Like 5.1 or somethign?

Here's what I'm thinking - You've got 2 1800's XPs. A new processor would be great, but you could squeak by w/ those if you had the patience. Your motherboard doesn't matter as much because its easy to add on a good sound card that will do what you want. Plus, then you can move that new sound card to a new computer down the line. You might want to consider more RAM.

Digital recording/editing isn't terribly limited by the processor/motherboard. With your computers, it'll just take longer. As long as your processor isn't running a high load, you'll be able to correctly capture your sound. An 1800 shouldn't have any issues capturing sound inputs, unless you're really planning on recording 10 sources at once or something.

 

[bilmo]

Don't worry about my name for heavens sakes. just don't call me shirley...
ya know, airplane, leslie neilsen?

anyway.......<<If you wanted to use as much of your old rigs as possible then you may be limited>>

just the video card, for now the cd/rw and the case...looking to build one pc.

<<home builds?>> yes

<<<If you can get way with using your current case then you can save some bucks>>

yes, and the video card. it's good enough. 64meg...

good enough for now anyway.

oh, I have a bunch of so so not too paleoithic memory too.

a barebones would be peachy. I am just wanting to not get hosed on the mobo

 

[bilmo]

<<Well, lets start w/ some basics. Your budget is limited to 600, so building a brand new awesome computer might be a little hard. Of course if you don't game, that'll help since you don't need a great video card. Unless you spend a little more>>

<<1) What are you going to be editing? Such as, music files?>>>

will eventually edit several tracks down to stereo..............
with the right computer, one can record a billion tracks. it's a little hard to mix though

here.... http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/kb2005298.asp

<<How long would they be?>>

usually, a song is 3 or 4 minutes.

<<Are they going to be recorded in massive quality?>>>

don't know what that means, but yes....CD quality. the industry standard is
44kHz with 24 bit recording and 16 bit mixdown to CD.

wave files/CD's yes...

<<2) Are you planning on recording live music w/ your computer? Or just editing and maybe some play-around-with-it recording? Hooking up a mixer to it?>>

no. I'll do all tracks myself. and I am of the 'less is more' school of thought on how many tracks to record. how many people would it take to reproduce on stage? more than 5? too many.

but recording is always more busy than live. each drum has a track, sometimes it's neat to have a stereo track with the same thing on both tracks. a Guitar. vocals. 16 tracks is as much as I'll ever want to do.

<<3) What do you mean by multitrack? Like 5.1 or somethign?>>>

I don't know what that is. you mean like the surround sound stuff like the soundblasters use?

<<Here's what I'm thinking - You've got 2 1800's XPs. A new processor would be great, but you could squeak by w/ those if you had the patience. Your motherboard doesn't matter as much because its easy to add on a good sound card that will do what you want. Plus, then you can move that new sound card to a new computer down the line. You might want to consider more RAM>>>

<<<Digital recording/editing isn't terribly limited by the processor/motherboard. With your computers, it'll just take longer. As long as your processor isn't running a high load, you'll be able to correctly capture your sound. An 1800 shouldn't have any issues capturing sound inputs, unless you're really planning on recording 10 sources at once or something>>>

lol!! I couldn't afford a soundcard that would accomadate 10 tracks all at once and I don't know 10 people I want in my house all at the same time. so no, no heavy duty workload for the old coal burning xp 1800's

 

[PCcashCow]

Don't worry about my name for heavens sakes. just don't call me shirley...
ya know, airplane, leslie neilsen?

anyway.......<<If you wanted to use as much of your old rigs as possible then you may be limited>>

just the video card, for now the cd/rw and the case...looking to build one pc.

<<home builds?>> yes

<<<If you can get way with using your current case then you can save some bucks>>

yes, and the video card. it's good enough. 64meg...

good enough for now anyway.

oh, I have a bunch of so so not too paleoithic memory too.

a barebones would be peachy. I am just wanting to not get hosed on the mobo

Well, Ill assume that the 64 meg video card you have there is an old AGP. Going by standards now, thats not going to work with a new mobo set up. But seeing how you dont dont care, there is plenty of onboard video technology that will far surpass your video card. You'll need atleast a 1 gig of ram to do what you want well, so your mixed pairs also won't be worth much. However, your case and cdrw should be useful, but I would also work a new cdrwdvdrw into your build. Having two make on the fly buring possible.

The last bit of info we may need to know here is what type of cases you have? Are they name brand? Store bought? Some cases like Dells, HPs, and so on are not really useful in upgrades.


----to be cont....

 

[nobly]

will eventually edit several tracks down to stereo..............
with the right computer, one can record a billion tracks. it's a little hard to mix though

here.... http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/kb2005298.asp

It sounds like you're just going to be mixing alot of stuff. Is that right?

<<Are they going to be recorded in massive quality?>>>
don't know what that means, but yes....CD quality. the industry standard is
44kHz with 24 bit recording and 16 bit mixdown to CD.

wave files/CD's yes...

I meant quality that superceded CD or DVD quality. Sorry for the confusion.

<<2) Are you planning on recording live music w/ your computer? Or just editing and maybe some play-around-with-it recording? Hooking up a mixer to it?>>

no. I'll do all tracks myself. and I am of the 'less is more' school of thought on how many tracks to record. how many people would it take to reproduce on stage? more than 5? too many.

but recording is always more busy than live. each drum has a track, sometimes it's neat to have a stereo track with the same thing on both tracks. a Guitar. vocals. 16 tracks is as much as I'll ever want to do.

<<3) What do you mean by multitrack? Like 5.1 or somethign?>>>

I don't know what that is. you mean like the surround sound stuff like the soundblasters use?

It sounds like you're going to record separate instruments, then mix them? If so, you will need a good onboard sound chip or a separate sound card like an audigy 2 or something:
http://www.soundblaster.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=204&product=4915&nav=3
Unfortunately I can't think of a great onboard sound chip as I haven't kept up with that. I'm sure someone else here knows though.

I think of multitrack as separate channels, such as found in 5.1, then they're decoded, etc, for a home theater system or something. I think you're thinking multitrack as in separate tracks that will be mixed together, but not recorded at the same time?


You could build a new computer and get a nice sound card too. You could also probably survive on those 1800s. But if time matters, then building a new computer will serve you well because it'll be alot faster when doing editing or mixing.

I can't really find any system specs for that cakewalk software you linked, but I bet your 1800's just make the cut.

I'd get you a single core AMD chip... I found that cakewalk 3 wasn't multithreaded (mebbe that's changed w/ 5), and a dual core probably won't make a difference for a 3 minute track. Plus it'll save you money (AMD X2's are pricey).
A 939 board w/ 1GB DDR400 RAM minimum, onboard vid like PCcashCow said. A new HDD will be good because that'll be speedier because the new technology makes all the difference there. I'd get an nForce4 chipset, but that's just cuz I think nVidia makes the best chipset for AMD.

 

[PCcashCow]

The question is how far do you really want to go?

There is a large trend for barebones sets to go towards the XPC or SFF (mini-pc & micro-atx) which is not that big of a deal, but not what you may be looking for because it limits expansion and use of multiple CDDVD devices.



But with a homebuilt PC I would start off with an Foxconn, an AMD 3500+ Venice, a WD 250gb HDD , aThermaltake v2.0 PSU , at least a gig of value ram your going to need Xp no matter what (unless you’re a mandrake fan) so,XP home will work just fine
If I were you, I would save maybe 150 bucks and add another burner for on the fly & basic multi-tasking. This rig will allow you to upgrade in the future if you be more heavily mulit-tasked and want to get a dual core AMD. Also, if your really pressed for the cash, then go over to zipzoomfly, whenever I price things out I always save 40 bucks off the free shipping & tax break(at least for me in NJ).

 

[biz79]

Hey Bil / BOB. I kind of have an idea of what you want to do. With $600 your choices are going to be somewhat limited if you decide to build a brand new rig, but picking up piece by piece could work, in conjunction with some old parts. Main focuses should be large quantities of RAM, good cpu and decent sound card. You can start off with a new mobo, cpu, (power supply also prolly) and ram, use stuff from your old system and get up and running first, adding on from there.

PS. I do alittle bit of recording, mixing, sampling, multitracking etc. (Soundforge, Acid, Reason...) I learned alot from friends and messing around so im definitely not a pro... but i hope i can help!

Pieces to consider -

Mobo - Anything solid. You'll want a board thats main purpose is to provide stability and is easy to use. I would just keep an eye out for boards that utilize dual channel ram, most do lately. Onboard raid, lan (for comp -> comp transfers only, of course!), ide, sata, and alot of usb2 ports. I would suggest a non-gamer ASUS, ASROCK, ABIT, (other name brand board.) Older second-hand gamer boards would work too if you can get it at a discount. I suggest socket 939 since dual core AMD cpu's seem to be great and the multi tasking provided with such a cpu would help alot especially if you're tabbing in and out of different programs alot and editing on fly (like me) $100~ price range works. Also if you're interested in overclocking, research a good board that overclocks well... most n force 4 boards should do ok.

This ASROCK has both AGP and PCI -E... not nforce 4 board but good reviews, cheap, and lotta extras! http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157081

CPU - I would look into the AMD x2 or Opteron dual core cpus. Theyre alittle pricey but you are paying for basically 2 cpus in 1. The multi tasking ability should work out well as stated above. You can get an X2 3800+ for ~$290 and an Opteron 165 for $330. The opteron IS the better choice w/ the larger L2 cache (2x1mb), its reported overclocking ability (avg speeds of 2.5ghz/ core if sposedly) and better memory controller from my understanding. This cpu should keep you covered for awhile. Prices will probably drop in the coming months as the new AM2 prepares for launch.

http://stores.tomshardware.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=13510550/search=opteron+165

RAM - pc 3200+ ddr dual channel. Fast ram is nice but in your case you want large quantities. Gamers go with 2 gb (lately) and should be the same for music production, but you can start off w/ 1gb now and add on more later after you make some $$ off some new tracks ^^. More ram will help w/ multitrack editing since the comp wont have to access the hard drive as often. Other opinions would be to combine tracks/samples before hand into .wavs so you have less windows open. You can get cheap ram or stuff that OC good.. up to you. brands - corsair, OCZ, etc. (guesing ~ $100 - 1 gb)

Sound card - Its your call here. I still use a SB live 5.1 and its pretty much junk, but it still has a line in port on the back which i can connect to my mixer and work from. SB audigy 2 is like 80$ (?) and the SB Xfi is alittle bit more but newer. Both cards should be ok for recording at 24bit and 16bit mixdowns. You can look into higher end cards but that 'll = more bling. (~$100)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829102188

PSU - You might need a new psu for a dual core cpu. Get a trusted brand like Antec or Enermax if you can. < $100. See below first.

Case - You might need 1, u might not. Some cases come w/ PSU so you can do that first, or you can use 1 of your existing cases. Either way <$100.

Video - use 1 from old comp or EBAY or get something cheap.

Drives - Take em from your old comp. (cdr, harddrives, etc)

This is about $600 or so if you dont need a case / psu. I think its a pretty cheap build and should work out well for quite some time and allows expandability. I didnt look around too hard so im sure you or others on here can suggest other quality parts for reasonable price in your budget. Do your research! I hope this info helps and would love to hear how this works out and some tracks !

Good luck!
- biz79
First post on this forum too btw

 

[bagg]

I think your best bet is to find the software you are going to be using first. As far as multitrack recording goes, your main points of concern is going to be your input source, RAM and hard drive speed. If you use something like DigiDesign's M-Box as your input source (which I highly recommend), it comes with ProTools LE, which should do everything you need it to do, with exceptional sound quality as well. The more RAM your computer has, the better off the mixing process will go. Also, DigiDesign recommends hard drives in a RAID 0 configuration (ie. striped). Nothing worse than stuttering when you are trying to mix something down. At the very least, keep your drive(s) defragmented often and if you are going to be using the PC strictly for recording/mixing/mastering, I would recommend not filling it up with software you don't really use.

Also, you are right about the ECS boards. To say they aren't the greatest would be an understatement, BUT they shouldn't have much of an effect on the quality of your recordings. People were doing multitrack recording on computers long before AMD came out with the 1800+ procs. Again, your main point of concern isn't what brand motherboard or even what speed processor, it's your input source. A SoundBlaster whatever Platinum isn't going to cut it AT ALL.

If money were no object (I wish!), then of course you would do better buying an AMD dual-core proc with a huge amount of RAM and a 4 drive RAID 0 array, but truth be told, your current rig will do just fine. Start with your input source. Find something that's within your budget that has the features you need. Once you've found something reasonable, check the hardware specs as far as the amount of RAM you need to run it and the recommended hard drive configuration.

Allow me to reiterate one thing.....no consumer sound card will do, regardless of whether it has a line-in or not. A SoundBlaster X-Fi will give you so much hiss you'll think you were recording on a 4 track tape that's had tracks bounced back and forth. Best thing to do is get an external box. You'll be surprised how much noise PC components make. An external I/O box eliminates the excess noise generated.

Hope this helps.

 

[bilmo]

bagg wrote:

"I think your best bet is to find the software you are going to be using first." "As far as multitrack recording goes, your main points of concern is going to be your input source, RAM and hard drive speed"

"If you use something like DigiDesign's M-Box as your input source (which I highly recommend), it comes with ProTools LE, which should do everything you need it to do, with exceptional sound quality as well"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is this the beastie to which you refer?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=240475

 

[bilmo]

much thanks to all of you! there is a ton of stuff for me to check out now,
and I will reply to everyone individually as soon as I can. cool!

this is great. a very nice turnout for my request for info. thanks all!

will be posting to you all soon! be well, and we'll talk asap.

BillBob

edited for typos....numerous typos!

 

[bilmo]

is this one a single core?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103606

 

[bagg]

That's it. You should be able to find it for around 349.99 without all of the extra plugins and such. There is also an Mbox 2 that's just been released, though I have not used it.

I would check sites like Musician's Friend for what you need instead of typical PC hardware vendors. No offense to 99.99999% of expert PC enthusiasts, but unless they have experience in actually recording/producing music, their opinions, however well intended, should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[bilmo]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103606

not sure that's the one you recommended!!

but, what's your opinion of that beastie? thanks

 

[bilmo]

<<<I would check sites like Musician's Friend for what you need>>>

thanks. yeah, I always check sam ash and musicians friend first.

musiciansfriend's price was kinda stout on this item. also, if I can still find an audiophile 2496, I think I'll grab it!

 

[nobly]

Thats a single core socket 754. I would caution you on getting a socket 754 processor, as they are being phased out by socket 939 and AMD's yet-to-come socket.

Unfortunately the next 939 processor up is like $170, so its like $50. :?

But just realize that your upgrade options for the processor will be limited if you want to upgrade at a later time.

The processor itself is ok, but any supporting chipset probably won't have dual-channel memory, which will definitely help you in audio editing. The spec for socket 754 processors only supports single-channel memory.
You'll defintely want dual-channel memory, especially if you're going to haev on board video with the motherboard.

 

[bilmo]

<<<I'd get you a single core AMD chip... I found that cakewalk 3 wasn't multithreaded (mebbe that's changed w/ 5), and a dual core probably won't make a difference for a 3 minute track>>>

you changed your mind about the single core cpu!

well, at least it's unanimous now

<<<Plus it'll save you money (AMD X2's are pricey) A 939 board>>>

eh....not that pricey. do you now concur that the cpu's I have are too old?
somebody on here said they would work. but how well? ah! there's the rub.

ok, so dualcore is the way to go then?

 

[nobly]

Uhhh no, there are single core processors that use socket 939.
The only reason I said single core is for your budget of 600. The lowest dual core X2 is $300:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103562
Then you would need a motherboard, RAM, etc etc. It would be close and probably over your 600 mark.

A single core CPU 939 is about $170:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535

Your current computers will work! But it depends on you. Can you afford to wait around while its editing? Its all about how fast you want it to be.

I'd recommend to just run w/ your current computers. If you find that you need a faster solution, then upgrade. I'm sure your motherboard must have some line-in input jacks somewhere that you can play with. Or try editing a 4 min MP3 that you have lying around... See how the edit times go. Try it out.

Also someone said its all about your source, and they're right. If you don't have a good noise-free source, its going to be a pain to chop that out of the sound without disrupting other parts of the audio clip.

Dual core would be the ultimate upgrade in your case. If your software is multithreaded, it will benefit even more. If its not, it won't benefit that much. (IMO, not $130 difference that much).

You need to determine whether or not you can work on your current computers or if you want to build a new one.

 

[bilmo]

I didn't mean to sound snooty. I was kind of just kidding with ya!
sorry if it sounded otherwise

no, you're right. you were the only guy who even mentioned single core.
no problem with your revised post later, including the unavoidable fact that 600 bucks aint gonna cut it.

I think pccashcow said even my video card is a dinosaur. I'll do what I can when I can, and I really do appreciate all the feedback from all you guys!

this was said in one post: "I think your best bet is to find the software you are going to be using first" and is quite the core of the whole Idea.

I used to use the old cool dit pro, but I don't know if I like tha Audition stuff now owned by Adobe.

Not fond of cakewalk stuff or anything that is really midi friendly. I am midi challenged and don't like midi stuff.

actually, finding out which software is best should be the first step. rather what I like, not what's supposedly best.

most are good. some are really good. I need as user friendly and blow and go as I can get.

the old cool edit was a breeze. I don't know anything about new stuff. I'll read all the posts again.

I did a search for an athlon xp 3000 barton core socket A, and the cheapest I could find was more than a lot of the dual core 64's.

so, it's a GOOD thing that everyone now agrees that spending money on a
non upgradable system is kinda iffy

yes, cheers!

I need to rifle thry the thread again for software ideas. I think protools may be out of my league in terms of learning curve.