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7800GS vs. x850 XT PE = TIE

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February 2, 2006 4:51:11 PM

Well after reading tom's review,
I can't help but feel a little disapointed for the agp market.
First of all, i think tom is missleading people by saying agp isn't dead yet.
This new card is a pathetic cripple and the benchmarks show it.

Obviously if Nvidia wanted to breath life into agp they would have released a 7800 gt version. This seems like a refresh to make sure they are on even ground with the x850xt and don't lose some profits.

the 7800gs gets owned by the x850 xt in Far Cry, and in FEAR on high AA and AF. :roll:




Overall i think it's a TIE between the two.

More about : 7800gs x850 tie

February 2, 2006 4:55:53 PM

"Well after reading tom's review. i can't feel but feel a little disapointed for the agp market. first of all i think tom is missleading people by saying agp isn't dead yet.
This new card is a pathetic cripple and the benchmarks show it."

Whatever man. Out of the 18 or so benchmarks you mention THREE that ATi does better. Have you looked at any of the others? Overall the 7800GS is a faster card based on the benchmark results. FEAR favors ATi, as well as Half Life 2. You know that. But I'm not going to argue in this thread I have a job.
February 2, 2006 5:01:04 PM

Actually x850xt pe wins in 3 real game benchmarks:

Far Cry, FEAR, Black and White 2.

While nvidia only wins in 2:

Doom3 and HL2

I'm surprised to see HL2 on nvidia's side.
Related resources
February 2, 2006 5:29:38 PM

Maybe...most of the 3dmark benches place the 7800GS ahead interestingly. I think the problem may be in NVIDIA's drivers though--perhaps a new version shall come out soon?
February 2, 2006 7:20:24 PM

I felt the same way until I looked up the pricing on the comparison cards....the x850xtpe is still selling for the range of $500! I as assuming it would have been a low cost alternative, but no.

I'd be more interested in knowing how the 7800gs stacks up against cards I might actually buy, like the 6800gs.
February 2, 2006 7:49:40 PM

You can find AGP X850 XT's in the $280 range... sometimes cheaper after rebates. There have been quite a few sales on them in the last few months...

The AGP 6800 GS isn't nearly as good as an X850 XT or 7800 GS, about 75% as good.

6800 GS is more on par with the X800 GTO.
February 2, 2006 7:57:31 PM

What's a little more disappointing is that there's not much of a performance advantage of the 7800GS over the 6800Ultra. What's the point? Shell out a few hundreds for ~10% increase...
February 2, 2006 8:22:08 PM

i dont get how u can say owned in fear, im sure u saw the giant red line and said WOAH NELLY NVIDIA SUX!!! the fact is that the yellow average is a 5 fps difference in fear at max settings... considering the ati card has the same number of pipelines, has time to have matured on the agp slot and has a higher core speed, i say the 7800gs is on par with the x850xtpe which is more expensive than the 7800gs, and is harder to find than a 7800gtx 512. they can sell for over 400 bux but most of the time closer to 500. nvidia hasnt optimized the drivers for a 7800gs on agp... agp is nowhere near dead, newest cards dont even use all of its bandwith, its a shame both nvidia and ati dropped agp as soon as pci express came out... considering most cards can be bridged to support agp (from pci express).. kinda pisses me off that they cripple cards and jack the price way up even though the agp market is still around 50%... ati and nvidia should support agp until the end of this year at the least, but im sure this will be one of the last agp cards launched from either brand.. if u want to spend 350 on ur old comp, find a pci express mobo for that amd 754 cpu and get a 7800gt. i think the 7800gs would be a good choice if it was priced at 299, as for the 850xtpe overpriced at 450 just because they overclocked an x800xt, go buy an aftermarket video cooler and overclock to xtpe speeds save urself 200 bux
February 2, 2006 8:28:45 PM

I think the best pick would be x850 pro, for the price.
Next you overclock it to X850Xt PE. You flash the bios with a x850xt PE bios. Now you have a 16 pipeline graphic card !

http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/overclocking/vidcar...

Fairly easy, and you got a x850xt PE for a fraction of the price
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 8:32:55 PM

Quote:
"Well after reading tom's review. i can't feel but feel a little disapointed for the agp market. first of all i think tom is missleading people by saying agp isn't dead yet.
This new card is a pathetic cripple and the benchmarks show it."

Whatever man. Out of the 18 or so benchmarks you mention THREE that ATi does better. Have you looked at any of the others? Overall the 7800GS is a faster card based on the benchmark results. FEAR favors ATi, as well as Half Life 2. You know that. But I'm not going to argue in this thread I have a job.


Are ya kidding me? I've only glanced over 3 reviews so far, but from what I see even the overclocked BFG model can't beat the X850XTpe.

Shoot, Anandtech surely doesn't favor ATI and they conclude that ATI has held onto the claim of fastest AGP card. ANANDTECH QUOTE"the X850 XTPE is generally faster than the new NVIDIA part... This leaves ATI holding onto a claim for the fastest AGP solution out there" http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2686&p=1

It's nice to have a fast NV AGP card available, but the performance IMO is far from what I'd like to have seen. Look over Anand's SC:CT and you see just like my 6800U, the 7800GS is still too slow to do SM3 features well in that game, without reducing the res. ANANDTECH QUOTE"The price the 7800 GS pays for enabling HDR and other SM3.0 eye candy is that it is limited in playability to lower resolutions." This is a huge blow to the card IMO as in AGP, it still seems that SM3 eye candy is pretty much just a checkbox feature that's cost is low res gaming without FSAA.

Oh well, I really should read more reviews before being too disaapointed.
February 2, 2006 8:39:31 PM

1- Drivers dont need to be specially coded for the AGP vs PCI-express slot. Hell, the architecture is the exact same as the 7800's which have been around for a while now. Where did you hear you have to optimize a driver for a slot?

2- Who ever said the X850 XT PE is a good buy? You'd have to be a complete idiot to spend the cash for an AGP X850 XT PE when you could get 95% of the performance from an X850 XT in the high $200s

3- Yes, I'll certainly agree they should have released it with much higher clocks, or a full 20 pipes. It was a waste.


The fact is, the 7800 GS will be $350 to $400 and the X850 XT can be had today for high $200s. That makes the 7800 GS irrelevant.

Unless they go down to $300 or below they aren't even worth a second look. Not when 7800 GT's + PCI-e mobos can be bought for $350.

At $250 the 7800 GS would be a good buy for AGP, which is what they should be since full fledged 7800 GT's can be found for slightly more than that in PCI-e!

And that's assuming that Ati doesn't counter by flooding the market with X850 XT's at $225...

I can't think of a single reason why you are pimping this card. At $400 it would be one of the worst buys EVER. At $350 it'd still be very difficult to recommend.

Seriously, it sounds more to me like you're an Nvidia fan whose been dying to have an AGP flag to fly under since the 6800U was dropped.

Or do you honestly thing an AGP owner with $400 is better off with a crippled 7800... instead of a full fledged 7800GT, PCI-e mobo, and an old mobo to hock on ebay?

Who in their right mind would pick an AGP 7800 GS over a 7800 GT and mobo?
You'd have to be out of your gourd. And that's not even considering the upgradability that a new system with a PCI-e slot offers...
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 8:48:43 PM

Quote:
I think the best pick would be x850 pro, for the price.
Next you overclock it to X850Xt PE. You flash the bios with a x850xt PE bios. Now you have a 16 pipeline graphic card !

http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/overclocking/vidcar...

Fairly easy, and you got a x850xt PE for a fraction of the price


I think the best pick all depends on price. If X850XT was still $200 AR like last week, it would clearly be the best choice. I don't know where to find one for under $300 right now. If the 7800GS drops in price and is easy to get for the same or equal price, then it would be my pick. AIW X800XT is still a fine pick if priced say $100 lower than these other two. (Mine cost me $230 from buy.com) And the higher clocked EVGA 6800GS AGP would be a great option too if priced low enough below these others. There are decent AGP cards from both ATI and NV, pricing/availability will determine what's the best bang in high end AGP. I'm hoping that this 7800GS supply is abundant and it takes the place the X850XT has held for a while as the best buy in high end AGP. Then maybe ATI will have to make a pricing move in response.
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 8:51:28 PM

Dang, you posted pricing talks while I was typing. Beat out by Cleeve once again. 8O
February 2, 2006 8:54:02 PM

Hahah yeah that red line does look impressive, doesn't it?

I never said that nvidia sucks though,
it's ownage because the x850xt is a year old, last generation card. :o 

When i say dead, i mean there is no more future for the socket.
There are obviously people who still own it, like all of my friends.
Tthe price gauging you mentioned has incouraged people to switch over to pci-e,
which is what i think the manufacturers had in mind in the first place.

If AGP cards are expensive people will move over to PCI-E.
Hence, why we probably won't ever see a 7800gt AGP.

It's really not worth buying an agp card with a "heavily invested system",
when you can get a mobo for a 100 bucks and switch to pci-e.
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 8:59:37 PM

[H] sums it up pretty well really in their conclusion:

Quote: "If the 7800 GS AGP had 4 more pixel pipes, or cost about $100 less dollars, we might be able to look you in the eye and say, “Go for it.” Overall, I think most our readers that are still using AGP systems would be better served by moving their upgrade path to more promising horizons. If you are dead set on staying in the AGP era, the BFGTech 7800 GS OC will surely provide you with a fantastic gaming experience…at a healthy price. And while technically this was not a hard launch for this product, many are already on retail shelves and sure to be for sale today at your favorite e-tailer."
February 2, 2006 9:01:23 PM

Has anyone else wondered whether this is actually a very cute move by nvidia to ditch some PCI-E cards that weren't up to GT/GTX specs? I don't know about production methods but can these be AGP bridged after core/clock/pipeline testing? Knowing there was a potential AGP audience out there looking for a 7 series card they would know that even a sub-GT performing card would likely grab a healthy share of the high end AGP market even if it underperformed compared to PCI-E equivalents......lets face it, no matter how excited we AGP-aholics want to be about this card, the improvements over a 6800Ultra or OC'd $200 6800GS are not awe-inspiring. As a matter of interest, I would like to see the GS, GT and X850 face off on the ASRock AGP/PCI-E mobo.
Am I a cynic conspiracy theorist? I know if I was in charge of production at Nvidia I would consider it a great move to be able to shift substandard PCI-E cards by AGP bridging. Maybe this is the company philosophy these days?
I personally followed their strategy like a Lemming off the cliff and got the 6800GS, fortunately it is a sweet card, even at 60% of max performance.
February 2, 2006 9:04:47 PM

the thing is i really dont want to go to pci express as im on an old socket already and just got this cpu for a bargin, 220 for a 3700... granted the mobo i have is complete crap i still would rather just plop in another card than have to strip my comp and put everything back in, it pisses me off to no end that nvidia and ati can do shit like this, card 350 for a card that on pci express is faster, has more goodies and is less money... nvidia and ati should stop being bitches about agp and start making new gen cards for aggressive prices, maybe since the 7800gs has come out on agp the x850xt will drop like u said, but as for right now im not in the market for a new video card... btw im more of an ati fan than nvidia, every video card ive had has been an ati and im quite pleased with all of them, they offered great performance for the price (9200 9600pro x700pro) but i since nvidia is actually supporting agp, unlike ati (especailly with newer cards, the highest there going to go is the x1600, which is slower than a x850xt, which also makes no sense why they would release a new gen card on agp that is BEAT by the old gen cards....) a friend from school is interested in my x700 so ive just been looking at my options and so far the best deal i can find is the x800xt AIW which will overclock to x850xt speeds pretty easily... and that can be held for around 225, granted i sell my x700 for 100 spending another 125 for a nice card that will last at least 2 years will be a perfect plan as i graduate in 2 years :)  (i run at 1024 x 768 and dont plan on upping it since i like CRT's more than LCDs mainly becuase of the price, so an x800xt will probably be overkill for me at the moment, since the x700 runs all my games on high/medium)
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 9:06:54 PM

Quote:
As a matter of interest, I would like to see the GS, GT and X850 face off on the ASRock AGP/PCI-E mobo

I have that Asrock Uli Dual mobo, a BFG6800U AGP and a X800XTpe AGP. Buy me a 7800GS and 7800GT, I'll run any benchie you want. :D  :D  :D 
February 2, 2006 9:07:10 PM

I have seen the X850XT on sale at Microcenter and CompUSA the last couple of weeks for $199 (after $50 MIR) but it's never advertised on their sites. :?:

$350 for a 7800GS is definitely a RIP! It may 'breath new life' into AGP for nVidia since the 6800GT and Ultra are ultra expensive but that's it!
February 2, 2006 9:09:41 PM

this is true but for the people that have a nice althlon xp 3200 barton and want a decent agp card without paying out the ass for it, and seeing that an x800xl on pci express is what, 212 bux? and one on agp is close to 300, it gets on people nerves since there is no pci express board for socket 462 (i think its 462?)/socket A and a barton 3200 is still a damn fine processor, although it runs kinda hot... i guess ati will just dominate agp for now with there price/perforamnce
February 2, 2006 9:11:38 PM

Sure, I'll buy it for the benchmarking, but then I get both cards and your mobo & cpu after you're done ;) 

btw, no one else going with my conspiracy theory?
February 2, 2006 9:14:30 PM

Quote:
btw, no one else going with my conspiracy theory?


Didn't read that part before! I think it's defintely something to consider even though I too know nothing of the process.
February 2, 2006 9:19:00 PM

flyguy makes a perfect example, his computer is still pretty nice, he has it overclocked to aan amd3500, with a 6600gt, now that might not be enoguh card for him but upgrading to a 7800gs could be out of the questin granted a 400 dollar price tag, also buying a new mobo and cpu is going to cost over 300 alone, plus a new card and maybe memory, flyguy makes a perfect example as to y ati and nvidia should support agp for at LEAST another full year

oh my bad, its a 2.0 overclock, still a athlon 3000+ my point still remains valid as thats still a respectable cpu
February 2, 2006 9:28:52 PM

The other consideration for all this is what it means for the PC gaming market. We all want the best visuals possible, hence the need for ever improving video performance but as a consequence the number of PC users out there with sufficient PC power to play them is ever decreasing. The consequence of that is a smaller sales market, thus lower sales for all but the very best games and hence a greater push by games manufacturers towards console systems. Think of someone running FEAR on a Dell or someother pre-built from your local PC store with integrated video.....you wouldn't touch it. Valve at least offered HL2 to the masses but a lot of games since then have been less concerned with target audiences. Anyway.....what was my point? Oh yeah, I just cannot find games any more for my Commodore 64 - what is that all about ;) 
February 2, 2006 9:30:17 PM

by the way, newegg has a refurbed ati x800xt for 218, i may order that beast this weekend :)  all is well for me and agp again!
February 2, 2006 10:01:10 PM

http://ckturbo128.proboards4.com/index.cgi?board=comput...

Here are some nifty benchmarks a guy made after overclocking that new 7800 GS OC by BFG. Looks like it does really well at overclocking and after overclocking performance shoots through the roof.

I'd say the only real advantage this card offers over x850 XT is access to newer bells and whistles like HDR and SM 3.0. If you look at the framerates that were obtained with all settings turned up in Mr. Yoon's benchmarks, they seem very respectable (after overclocking anyhow). Is it worth the extra $100 to have all these things, I really don't think so. However, I have to think the price on this card will come down eventually, especially after we see 7900s on the shelves and whatever number card appears based on the G80 core.
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 10:24:23 PM

The BFG so far looks to be a good overclocker. Firing Squad hit 495/1.41 in their review. I'm hoping it wasn't a hand picked review cherry though as even a 475/1350 7800GS would be huge compared to the 375/1200 NV reference clocks.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/bfg_geforce_7800_gs...

clock speeds
Reference 7800GS 375/1200
Stock BFG 7800GS 400/1250
FS BFG 7800GS OC 495/1410
February 2, 2006 10:41:47 PM

I totally agree with the idea that money is best spent on a new mobo + a pcie card.

I just wish Windows xp wouldn't force me to reinstall just because I changed mobos....that's annoying.

Wasn't long ago I put in a new mobo, stayed with agp cuz I can't really justify a new video card...I don't game like most of you seem to, and my radeon 9800pro still owes me more service time for the money I spent a few years ago. I put in the new mobo cuz I was slowing my work down to a crawl with cpu intensive multitasking, so I put in the new amd x2 3800 pro.

I have it working well now, but geez....all the discussion over cool new video cards does make me want one......

If windows would just look the other way, I'd switch out the mobo and do it, the hardware takes an hour or so....but reinstalling windows takes a weekend to get it all back the way I want it. yuck

B
February 2, 2006 10:41:54 PM

wow 95 core overclock from bfgs overclock, that seems like pushing the card to the ultimate limits and possibly overheating after a long gaming session :-/
a b U Graphics card
February 2, 2006 10:51:18 PM

[H] said their BFG was stable at 504MHz core. But Their temps are wicked high compared to what my BFG 6800U reports.
February 2, 2006 10:57:22 PM

Isn't the GS just a GT that didn't pass on all pipes, or high speeds?
if so, overclocking could possibly yield a GT with only 16 pipes, faster than a 850xt.
i'm sure the extra heat isn't something an Arctic Silencer couldn't get rid off.
That's almost 400 dollars for a Nv reject... with an aftermarket cooler.

Now here's a thought:

Nvidia will make more profit on their "reject" cards (GS) than they do on their good ones. (the GTs)
Now thats a good buisness strategy: sell your scraps for more than your finished product. :twisted:

Too bad their scraps aren't as good as an x850xt in d3d. :p 
February 2, 2006 11:34:00 PM

from what ive heard a 7800gs only has 16 pipes, so i dont think that there just rejected 7800gt's as they have 20 pipelines, i could be wrong tho... prob am, again :p 
February 3, 2006 12:15:22 AM

Quote:
from what ive heard a 7800gs only has 16 pipes, so i dont think that there just rejected 7800gt's as they have 20 pipelines, i could be wrong tho... prob am, again :p 


Apparently the GS model is using the same core as the GT model, G70. Thus, it is quite probable that they're using G70s that didn't pass testing in 20 pipes for these GS card they're putting out. So while technically they're only guaranteed to have 16 working pipes, the other 4 (or 8?) pipes on the core are simply disabled.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the cores of these AGP cards prove to be unlockable, where the PCIe versions aren't, wouldn't this mean you could potentially have up to 24 pipes?
February 3, 2006 1:14:20 AM

That's a pretty big if,
especially that they're just using the same 7800gt cores.

If its only a bios lock you could unlock it to a 7800gt.
I don't think 24 pipes is possible though, if it was you'd see a lot of people with 7800gt -> gtx mods, including me.

I'd pay 289 dollars for a GTX :wink:
February 3, 2006 5:00:54 AM

Quote:
...but i since nvidia is actually supporting agp, unlike ati (especailly with newer cards...


Well, I don't consider the 7800 GS to be good support. They might as well have just re-released a true 6800 GT at a good price, the 7800 GS has the *exact same SM 3.0 features and pipelines* as a 6800 GT.

So in my book, that's not support at all. It's cashing in on the good 7800 name to suck money out of uninformed AGP owners who assume they're getting 7800 GT performance...
February 3, 2006 8:33:01 AM

Quote:
Well after reading tom's review,
I can't help but feel a little disapointed for the agp market.
First of all, i think tom is missleading people by saying agp isn't dead yet.
This new card is a pathetic cripple and the benchmarks show it.

Obviously if Nvidia wanted to breath life into agp they would have released a 7800 gt version. This seems like a refresh to make sure they are on even ground with the x850xt and don't lose some profits.

the 7800gs gets owned by the x850 xt in Far Cry, and in FEAR on high AA and AF. :roll:


Overall i think it's a TIE between the two.


Not exactly!

FOR LINUX ATi have better support (drivers)!
For WinCrap there is almost a close relationship!
February 3, 2006 11:41:13 AM

nice theory, i'm in :D 
February 3, 2006 1:23:47 PM

Quote:
flyguy makes a perfect example, his computer is still pretty nice, with a 6600gt, now that might not be enoguh card for him but upgrading to a 7800gs could be out of the questin granted a 400 dollar price tag, also buying a new mobo and cpu is going to cost over 300 alone, plus a new card and maybe memory, flyguy makes a perfect example as to y ati and nvidia should support agp for at LEAST another full year


Ha, thanks! It still works for Civ4, Quake4, and Doom3, at 1280x1024 w/some AA/AF. I don't know about Fear or BF2! I'm trying to hold out a bit longer before upgrading, hopefully a year or so when Vista comes out. I'm not gonna blow $250+ on a card though to use it a year tops though.
February 3, 2006 6:47:12 PM

i felt the same way before i upgraded my socket 462 amd 2400, i decided that since the 3700 for socket 754 was a LOT cheaper than the 939 3700, cheaper by over 150, and the 754 came with a mobo, its a pos but it runs stable.. at the time and still now i dont see any advantages of pci express except for cheaper cards, but since im getting an x800xt for 219 bux this weekend, im happy as can be :) . pci express still shows no advantages over agp, so why did nvidia and ati drop agp like a brick on my nuts? it seems kinda retarded to just ditch the entire computer community forcing them to upgrade for better performance
February 3, 2006 7:20:27 PM

Thanks Flyguy.
I don't think too many people here see that it really is very likely that the current strategy going into graphics card design (by Nvidia at least) is to take advantage of the AGP & PCI-E markets with the same board designs. Before PCI-E broke, any sub-standard AGP boards could only be sold as a lower spec AGP model (still selling the crappy boards but at a lower profit margin). Once PCI-E to AGP bridging (& vice versa) bridging came out nvidia obviously spotted a real opportunity to increase their profitability. Suddenly, card design could be pushed down the new PCI-E route but all sub-standard cards could then be released as bridged AGP cards at a LOWER spec (I bet all future AGP cards from Nvidia are PCI-E models with bad pipes and vertex shaders closed off as is the 7800GS) and a HIGHER price (with increased profitability). Now the tag of a 7800 card available on AGP attracts the moths to the flame while the PCI-E buyers actually get the fully geared up technology whilst also at a lower price. :evil: 
Now sure, OCing and successful unlocks will offer the lucky few something close to the PCI-E version but its still a great deal for Nvidia!
Ok, I have a Geforce3 Ti200 for sale for all you PCI-E people there. Stick it in your machine and get an extra 16 pipes and 12 vertex shaders, only $140.....AGP buyers, yours for just $20 :lol: 
I wish I had developed PCI-E to AGP bridging technology!!!!!
!