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What sucks about AMD

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February 13, 2006 1:36:30 AM

I think Intel have a hand above AMD when it comes to the value processor market because of this:

Ok, so one of my clients has got an old generic PIII motherboard (w/ PIII 700meg) their father-in-law picked up on the cheap on his way through Asia. It doesn't have any sort of brandname that I've even heard of before.. Anyhow, it is outdated, needs replacing. Heck, I can't even seem to be able get it to initialize read from CD-ROM at startup, the BIOS is so freaking shoddy. So I was going to replace it with a Sempron budget chip from AMD, to keep the cost down, to make it a little more "future-proof" than it is at the moment. as they have no requirement for performance and just want to get it onto XP - you know the whole story.

But of course, you can't because AMD doesn't do any budget Sempron chips on the 939 pin variety!!! and you have to either spend NZD$250 straight up on the lowest end Athlon 64, or buy an Intel!!

So why doesn't AMD make value chips available for their only still living platform??[/i]

More about : sucks amd

February 13, 2006 2:01:14 AM

Hash, semprons are crap. Forget that. Get an ASROCK 939 board (bout $80) and an AMD 3000+ Venice E3 for about $160. Also, this overclocks like hell (usually on stock voltage) so if you want to save even more go to 2.8 on stock cooler (very possibly, by the way...)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...
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February 13, 2006 2:13:24 AM

AM2 isn't due for awhile, it has been delayed most likely because AMD can't perfect 65nm. However, 939 will be around until 2007 and AMD isn't gay about chipsets and has never required anything more than a BIOS update for new processors.
February 13, 2006 2:18:58 AM

Yeah man i know. But as I said in my original post my client doesn't want big performance they just want something on XP, something ACAP.
February 13, 2006 2:23:34 AM

lol i know. but only problem its a laptop
February 13, 2006 2:24:03 AM

Quote:
I think Intel have a hand above AMD when it comes to the value processor market because of this:

Ok, so one of my clients has got an old generic PIII motherboard (w/ PIII 700meg) their father-in-law picked up on the cheap on his way through Asia. It doesn't have any sort of brandname that I've even heard of before.. Anyhow, it is outdated, needs replacing. Heck, I can't even seem to be able get it to initialize read from CD-ROM at startup, the BIOS is so freaking shoddy. So I was going to replace it with a Sempron budget chip from AMD, to keep the cost down, to make it a little more "future-proof" than it is at the moment. as they have no requirement for performance and just want to get it onto XP - you know the whole story.

But of course, you can't because AMD doesn't do any budget Sempron chips on the 939 pin variety!!! and you have to either spend NZD$250 straight up on the lowest end Athlon 64, or buy an Intel!!

So why doesn't AMD make value chips available for their only still living platform??
[/i]

Budget CPU and motherboard are not designed for being futureproof.. They are simply consumable. Get a cheap board, a cheap Sempron and install it. If it last more than one year, then you'll be OK.. socket 939 is going to be phased out in 2007 anyway, so even if you get a 939 board now, you may not be able to find a 939 at good price to use or you'll rather use a newer socket budget board and CPU..
February 13, 2006 2:27:02 AM

what i meant by "future-proof" is that buy a sempron now, and when it came to upgrade time, just drop in any kind of A64, voila. but hey i guess you're right, s939 is as good as dead already.
February 13, 2006 2:31:04 AM

A bit of info for you. Sis says AM2 chips and boards will be available before the end of June.
Gate length has nothing to do with AM2, since it will debute with 90 nano chips, and 65 nanos wont ship before the end of the year.
The new mobos will support sempron chips.
February 13, 2006 2:33:37 AM

I sold my socket 754 CPU and board to a friend when I got my 939 system. He's still using it and it is still performing up to par for everything. A CPU don't turn bad at the time a new one is announced. They can still be running years after years, without any problem.

I would not hesitate to get any budget Sempron with any budget board anytime. Because those who want budget usually don't mind about performance and won't upgrade until really necessary. And that mean that new board, new cpu will be available and cost less than one to upgrade the older board..
February 13, 2006 2:46:12 AM

in addition to that, people fail to realize that intel isnt any better with upgradeability. if your client will need to upgrade, he will need to buy a new intel mobo, as intel releases a new chipset with every new processor, so just cause the socket stays the same, doesnt mean much...
February 13, 2006 2:48:58 AM

but in terms of the intel value chip market, if it supports a P4, it supports a celeron (same socket, 64-bit and everything else). unlike AMD
February 13, 2006 2:51:28 AM

939 doesn't die till 2007, and there already a boatload of chips for it
February 13, 2006 2:58:46 AM

Quote:
939 doesn't die till 2007, and there already a boatload of chips for it


Then, that will be the same situation than now.. who will want to upgrade a dead platform when a new one is available..

I've been in the computer since the 8088 and 6502 processor.. and I still have to see something that is futureproof ...
February 13, 2006 3:08:43 AM

They are running a P3 700 still, and you think they may upgrade a new chip? I'd bet not before quad cores have been and gone.
February 13, 2006 3:20:22 AM

Well, I'll tell you the rest of their system for laughs:

192MB SDRAM (1x 128MB PC133, 1x 64MB PC100)
1.48GB HDD (who cares what brand)
Pentium III 700MHz Socket A on a slot-A adaptor
Generic, literally no-brand, motherboard (seems like the manufacturer is too ashamed to own up to making it)
The voltage controls for this board are so ridiculously tacky, you can set it at 1.3-2V and it will virtually work on any.

It's running either Win 98 or 2000, with the useless onboard graphics its too hard to tell.
February 13, 2006 3:23:24 AM

damn what company is that? Falcon Northwest? Alienware? Dell XPS?
February 13, 2006 3:24:07 AM

Yah, I used to walk away from budget oriented clients (the cheapos) when I had my consulting firm. Nowadays when one tries to say hello I just jump in a cab & say "to the airport please".
February 13, 2006 3:25:29 AM

Exactly. And the chances of them doing a chip upgrade on this new system are 1/2 of winning the largest lotto jackpot in history.
February 13, 2006 3:32:23 AM

Well nearly everyone I've done work for seems to want the impossible done for under $300. are you talking about as in the cheapo system parts that need RMAing all the time or what?
February 13, 2006 3:33:25 AM

I love it when people buy cheap ass crap and then wonder why it soon turns to shit when the PSU fails.
February 13, 2006 4:06:48 AM

look hash amd aint crap ok second they only sell s939 sempry's to hp third buy an hp and remove the sempry and use it!
February 13, 2006 4:13:16 AM

Quote:
look hash amd aint crap ok second they only sell s939 sempry's to hp third buy an hp and remove the sempry and use it!


:roll:
February 13, 2006 4:25:20 AM

Quote:
But of course, you can't because AMD doesn't do any budget Sempron chips on the 939 pin variety!!! and you have to either spend NZD$250 straight up on the lowest end Athlon 64, or buy an Intel!


When my Computer died in September2005 i decided to go for the : ACAP route.
Asrock MB : 33€ (intergrated audio / video / sata)
Sempron 2600 (Socket A/462) : 52€
Ram PQI 512MB : 35€ (not no name, but not Corsair)
(ATM in France there are even cheaper "Packs" out there)

While the performance arent stellar, they are fine "waiting for the next Gen".

You can ALWAYS recycle old computers (just need a cool case/box).
My friends Athlon 1GHZ (runs WoW just fine) will end up as a living-room console emulator.

I prefer having to build a "whole new comp" when i upgrade, than just change the cpu.
I know when i change my SocketA, it will become a fanless FTP server for 24/7 e-mule/torrent.

But Yeah, AMD is really bad for those that just want to "upgrade by changing CPU".
February 13, 2006 4:28:25 AM

Quote:
But of course, you can't because AMD doesn't do any budget Sempron chips on the 939 pin variety!!! and you have to either spend NZD$250 straight up on the lowest end Athlon 64, or buy an Intel!


When my Computer died in September2005 i decided to go for the : ACAP route.
Asrock MB : 33€ (intergrated audio / video / sata)
Sempron 2600 (Socket A/462) : 52€
Ram PQI 512MB : 35€ (not no name, but not Corsair)
(ATM in France there are even cheaper "Packs" out there)

While the performance arent stellar, they are fine "waiting for the next Gen".

You can ALWAYS recycle old computers (just need a cool case/box).
My friends Athlon 1GHZ (runs WoW just fine) will end up as a living-room console emulator.

I prefer having to build a "whole new comp" when i upgrade, than just change the cpu.
I know when i change my SocketA, it will become a fanless FTP server for 24/7 e-mule/torrent.

But Yeah, AMD is really bad for those that just want to "upgrade by changing CPU".

I don't think so. If you bought a 939 mobo when it first came out, you have a crapload of CPU's from a lot of different categories to choose from. Also, it doesn't phase out until 2007 and with NO chipset changes unlike LGA775 so you have to give credit where it is due. They have everything from low end A64's to dual core opterons to FX gaming processors.
February 13, 2006 4:39:18 AM

any of you have any idea how this PSU is for reliability/quality compared to the generic Hyena PSU that comes with the case??

Antec SmartPower 400W ATX PSU
February 13, 2006 4:40:57 AM

Antec smartpowers should be should be pretty good.
February 13, 2006 6:38:34 AM

I truly agree with you. There's a saying that "you get what you pay" and in some cases like cpu it's true. I do believe that budget price cpu are only good for at least a year. I had a 820 and not it feels like it outdated.
February 13, 2006 6:47:14 AM

Well if these guys are still using the PIII then with the new sempron 2800+ they shouldn't notice a thing until about 5 to 6 years.. :lol: 
February 13, 2006 8:43:32 AM

Quote:
I don't think so. If you bought a 939 mobo when it first came out, you have a crapload of CPU's from a lot of different categories to choose from


Why buy a 939 when it came out ?
I had a SocketA + Athlon 2100 that was doing fine.
But ... It died. I do not care at all about evolutivity.
Never did, I either "Recycle" or get "100% New Stuff""

- 939 MB Were more expensive
- 939 CPU Were more expensive
- 939 Was gonna die sooner or later
- I Was already saving up for the Next Generation CPUs

I wanted the CHEAPEST solution that would enable me to play my games.
And that was Socket A/462 with ZERO evolutivity.

I'm sorry, but if a friend with a 1GHz (or less) CPU, had his computer die.
I'll ask him first "Need more power ?" No i only DVD/Office/MP3/Internet
I'll still believe the 120€ Socket754 Solutions are viable.
February 13, 2006 10:27:35 AM

While I see your point about upgradability but its kinda futile to upgrade an AMD setup at all. First, lets dispell the myth that semprons suck. I put two computers together for two friends. The higher end one is a A64 3000 Winnie, Abit mobo, 1GB of performance RAM, and a 6800GT (AGP). The second one is a Sempron 2800 (OC'D to 1.8ghz), biostar Tforce board, 1GB of mismatched RAM, and a 6800GS. Both of these morons love playing BF2. I wont go into details of specific graphics settings, but they play the same. I think the first set up runs a little smoother and loads up games a little faster but it cost $799 for the components listed above. The sempron was $397. I can attest that there is not $400 worth of difference between them. In short, the A64 setup is not so much better that the resolution and eye candy can but turned up s much higher that you cream your self or say something like, "damn, i sure am glad I got this A64 instead of that damned sempron. Yes, the A64 set up is better. But not $400 better. Yes, the A64 set up can be upgraded, but why? Why buy another chip when you can OC to whatever you need? Lets say we can only get that A64 3000 to 2.2 ghz. Is it worth another $300 bucks just to get a A64 3800? Will the extra 200mhz really make a difference? yes, its sucks that the Sempron is based off of dead end tech. but that dead end tech is still better than any celeron and many P4 setups and is within the realm of a lower end A64 setup. And it is so cheap too. let me put it this way, if you were to buy a sempron setup today, why would it be an issue to buy a new chip for your S754 mobo 9 months from now (even if it were possible)? You would pay say, $150 for a high end S754 that wouldnt even touch a low end AM2 for the same price. here is the reality for us consumers ok? All computers are like BIC razors.... they are meant to be thrown away when you are done using them (except for GPUs). I would gather that if you have a limited budget ($500) or less, you cannot go wrong with a sempron set up. In a few months there will be something new for us to bitch about and then turn around and buy. As for my friends, the A64 holder is pissed that he bought a $180 Abit Guru mobo that wont accept newer PCI-e GPUs like the 7800. he is very reluctant to buy again and is even more pissed that a supposed low end system can touch his. As for the Sempron user, I dont think he is going to be bothered too much by chunking his system when he upgrades. The bottom line is this: both of these chumps are going to have to buy all new core components come next year if they want to upgrade. so I would say the sempron user comes out with the upper hand out of the two. This is just my opinion formed from the "seeing-is-believing" technique.
February 13, 2006 10:41:28 AM

(Murphy's Law apply to the following)
No. I'm talking about cheapo people that are always looking for bargain basement priced PC's & then they complain to you, the consultant/installer, about what a piece of crap it is that their hard earned .99 cents went into two weeks later in addition to the RMAing by the 3rd week. My rule of thumb was & sometimes is (when I'm in the mood to put PC's together again for others than myself) when they ask for a Ford Pinto, push them into the Toyota, when they go for the Toyota, push them the Volkswagen Beetle (70's version), when they go for the Beetle, sell them the Cadillac CTS. This way when the unit fails before the 90 day warrany expires (and it will) you can always blame that one old part they wanted to keep. Usually (especially that cheap uncle) I'll tell tell them that they should save up for another 3-4 weeks worth of cash to get them something that I wouldn't mind working on when they have a problem (because they will call you with a problem after the sale).
a b à CPUs
February 13, 2006 2:24:24 PM

Well I bought a REALLY REALLY cheap Sempron 2600+ (Socket 754 128KB L2 Cache) and teamed it up with a REALLY cheap MSI K8N Neo2.0 nforce3 250 board.

What I got was a CPU that clocks to 2.6GHz using an HTT of 325 clocked at 3x (975MHz).

Not bad if you ask me.
February 13, 2006 3:09:18 PM

NOT A Bad little overclock there :p 

but one problem people have with their computer buying patterns is this

"I'll by this 1/2 point now so that I can upgrade to the top of the line then"

this is a bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.

ALWAYS BUY FOR TODAY!. buy what you want to do for today because the future in computing is so unpredictable that it's predictable

it's almost guaranteed by the time you want to do that upgrade to the highest level, the current technology will be gone. it happens all the time and i've gone trhough almost 15 years of my own personal experience with this.

i did this with my last video card. I bought a 6600GT AGP thinking, i really want the top of the line (6800GT at the time) but i'll hold off till it's cheaper... I held on... and the 7800GT came out... but i was stuck unable to go to the top of the line now because I had an antiquated socket. i had to in place replace my motherboard and video card instead. if at the time i had just baught the 6800GT, i probably would have been happier longer and been able to hold out a year before buying a new computer. instead i've upgraded, replaced and upgraded so many times with missmatched componants and constant bottlenecks because of the "i'll hold off for the future"

now it's my policy just to buy the top that i can afford at thte time
February 13, 2006 3:22:51 PM

Good point. I agree. i think it is best to buy what it is you want the first time instead of buying something and then trying to hawk your older stuff on ebay or something. Although there is no way to future proof your system, I think you can insulate yourself a little buy keeping up to date on future technology and having patience. There is alot of talk on these forums about dual core VS single core. i think it is bet to wait a few more weeks to save up enough for a dual core rather than spend $150-$200 on a single core that will be chunked soon or later. The only counter to this would be to buy whatever single core you want now and buy a better dual core in the future than what is available now. I waited over a year to upgrade and I think I did the right thing. Now, I intend on using my 9800 Pro until the right GPU comes out. Although I am pretty sure the 7800GT is that card. I just dont want to spend $275 on one....
February 13, 2006 3:45:40 PM

If you have AGP and you want to save hellaz cash, get the 6800NORMAL and unlock. PCI express has some X800gto2's that can hit x850 speeds/pipes. for overall price/performance, 7800gt is your best bet.
February 13, 2006 4:00:24 PM

generally speaking AK,

in the consulting / computer building feild for retail and for end users. Overclocking / unlocking CPU's and Cards is bad advice. I'm not discounting the opportunities people have with modding these machines and parts, but doing it often has risks and consequences.

I knwo when i'm selling a system and the person requests certain performance, i don't recommend a sub par card and tell them to overclock it. i recommend the card matched for the task. doing the first thing is illogical, and very unethical when you're trying to match a system to the user
February 13, 2006 4:04:17 PM

Nah, I dont screw with GPUs. Never have and never will. I have had GPUs go bad on me for no reason so I am very leery of it. I really see no reason to buy right now other than to one-up my friends. I scaled back my upgrade to accomodate an Infocus X3 projector. I will always be limited to 1024x768 resolution so I dont think I will ever need hardcore power. I thougth about it long and hard and I realized that decent graphics at 82 inches is more in line with what i want than 1600x1200, ultra quality, and 8x AA,AF at 19 inches. Thanks for the info though. Lets see what comes of AVIVO from Ati. If it pans out, there will be absolutely no reason at all for most computer users to buy a high priced CPU (IMHO of course)
February 13, 2006 4:05:12 PM

yeah, but when some kid with less than a massive paycheck comes and asks for a card that doesn't shit out at high resolutions, im not gonna be a douchebag and tell him he should get a job. also, when 90% of the cards have luck doing a particular job as overclocking, i find it hard to imagine that a video card "batch" will suck at a task that a similar one could rule in, far from that of a processor batch. also, its not like either of those cards are terribly shabby at stock [/i]anyway...
February 13, 2006 4:12:22 PM

But overclocking can lend so much to your reputation......... LOL! Lets say a customer can achieve at 300mhz OC on the CPU without upping his voltage, without buying expensive RAM or mobo, what is the big deal? I think it is safe to say the 939 can accomplish this saving $50 or more for your customer and allowing then to spread that cash out to the GPU. Think of the possibilities..... Nah, you are on the right path, OC'ing and modding is for enthusiasts, braggarts, one-uppers, and curious george's!
February 13, 2006 4:12:57 PM

i know what you're saying, and i might recommend it to a friend or someoen who is an enthousiest who's already done it as a hey, this would be cool thing..

but if a user came to me and said. "build me a computer that does X Y Z." i wouldnt build them a computer that does A B C and then overclock it to X Y Z just because it's cheaper.

voiding the warranties, risking the parts, shortening the lifepan and potential other risks that come with it are not worth it, and i would feel ethically WRong to do this to a user. if someone asks for a certain level of performance i will only recomend what meets that performance STOCK. however, if they can not meet that performance, i will always tell them what the closest they can come with cheaper componants and the sacrifices they make by going with the lower stuff.

I just find that overclocking / unlocking parts should be left to the enthousiests and those who know what they're doing.
February 13, 2006 4:20:24 PM

Roffle
I love argueing with Dipshits who think things will light on fire, burn out or disappear through a worm hole after being overclocked. It pisses me off. Evga, for example, has a warranty that allows anything to overclocked till it lights on fire and they will still replace it. AMD and Intel have No damn clue if you overclock a part. Nothing will die off or suffer from "loss of life" unless you buy a crappy PSU. Even if it does, we are talking about silicon lasting 15 years instead of 10, and by that time you will laugh at that pathetic piece of crap doorstop.
February 13, 2006 4:25:06 PM

not entirely true. I don't know about EVGA's warranty per say

but I know a lot of other manufacturers do void their warranties on overclocking. and there are tell tale signs of overclockin failures. Fried circutry, burned transisters and stuff.

and yes, OCing these days tends to be fairly straight forward and easy, and the risks aren't as huge as they used to. but take this from a perspective of someone building a computer to sell to someone else

I build oyu a machine... you want it to perform at FX-55 speeds, but can only afford a 3000+. i tell you. sure no problem, i could sell you for 600 cheaper something that will perform at the same speed with a little tweaking. i then go to overclock it. seems fine to me, and i ship it to you. you open it, run it, it lasts 5 days and then breaks fro one reason or another. you phone me saying "MY CPU DIED! REPLACE IT" i then tell you. sorry, i had to overclock it to do what you wanted it to so the warranty was voided. you have to buy a new CPU now

you'd be fucking pissed as hell! and rightfully so. therefore by putting in stuff that is ONLY stock there's no excuses and my ass is covered
a b à CPUs
February 13, 2006 4:27:42 PM

AMD and their partnered mobo makers offer far more upgradability than Intel ever has/will. At least AMD reuses the same socket when introducing new CPU's, i.e; Socket 7 series, Socket 462 series, Socket 939 series. I've gotten more life out of my old Socket 462 mobos than I did the two Intel builds. Intel has a really bad habit of pushing a new sockets and chipsets, and in turn new standards, which forces enthusiasts to not only upgrade cpu's, but mobos and memory as well. Don't believe me, remember Socket 423, RAMBUS, and BTX?! WTF! Price for performance and lifespan, AMD is the better choice.

For your client, if all they're gonna use the machine for is email and web surfing, build an AMD Socket 754 with an nForce3 chipset mobo. These cpu's and the nForce3 chipset are not to be underestimated and will give your client the best price for performance for the next 2-3 years. Coincidently, I just built a machine for my parents, upgrading their PIII to the Skt754 and they have had nothing but kudos for the speed and "how fast the internet comes up!" Believe it!
February 13, 2006 4:29:08 PM

psh, just make your customers sign some retarded papers. not hard. also, parts only die from overclocking if somebody is so stupid as to allow them to overheat. this is why you invest in aftermarket cooling...
February 13, 2006 4:30:03 PM

Thats not necesarily the case. I ruined my XP1700 by trying to LOWER the FSB to under 100mhz to try and turn it into a media PC. I wanted it to slow down and remain cool. It was a low end biostar mobo and the chip was like $70 so shame on me! Me and my buddy crapped out our XP 2800 and 3000 after a meagre 10-12mhz FSB boost using a windows tool (only for Nforce boards) Mine went out first after a few weeks and his crapped out a month or two after that. The scary thing is that our systems went down after we returned our systems to stock settings. Did we know what we were doing? I would say no. Am I more confident now? yes. I bought better crap. I would like to sit here and say the XP is just not good for OC'ing, but I would get torn apart by the people who did it succesfully.
February 13, 2006 4:31:55 PM

AK,

I KNOW THAT.

YOU KNOW THAT

JOE SHMOE DOESNT KNOW THAT


you say "dude, why buy the 6800GT and spend the money, just buy the 6800GS and overclock the hell out of it"

so the guy does that. buys the 6800GS and overclocks the hell otu ofit..... frying it in the process. why? because he doesnt know (granted he's dumber than a fuck for not researching more). but see how your advice is bad and led him astray in the first place

My own personal standpoint is unless someone specifically asks for overclocking support, I do not offer it or recommend it.
February 13, 2006 4:34:59 PM

let me re-itterate this

I think that giving OC advice without it being asked is bad advice.

I have nothing against overclocking. it's a great tool and sometimes can be fun. I do it too

I'm just saying that when someone is asking for specific advice like 'which product would do this'. telling him to buy a product lower and overclock it was not what he asked for. if he asked 'what card could i buy to overclock it to this point' than yes, i'd recommend a lower card and overclocking method. but as i said, i will first always match the part to the task and not recommend otherwise unless asked
February 13, 2006 4:42:44 PM

Just build them the best you can within their budget. Probably a Celeron machine. A few years ago, it probably would have been an AMD machine.

You're talking about a customer who's held onto a PIII this long from a father-in-law who picked it up on the cheap. Anything built with tech from the last 3-4 years will seem like Blue Gene to them and run XP just fine.

Upgradability really doesn't enter the equation here. To make matters worse, when cost goes down quality usually goes down with it, but that's what cheap is.
February 13, 2006 6:03:41 PM

Congrats on your successful overclock with shit ass parts.
!