Multi-Rig... What do u recommend?

tcdude

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I'd like to build a rig which will mainly be used for encoding video, photoshop and programming (at least 2 screens attached). I'd also like to use it as a gamecomputer tough only when I host LAN-partys where someone doesn't have to bring his own computer.

ok now 3rd edit... hdd's i already know that i'm gonna take 2 74gig raptors in raid 0 config.

The general idea was to set up a system with 2 dual-core cpu's (opteron? is it at all possible?) I have no preferences what so ever of brand... (no brand fanboy, but power/speed/oc-able fanboy)
Noise doesn't matter, acutally i like it when my rig sounds like a jet turbine. $$$ is also no issue (i'd like to keep it under 5000$, whithout monitor, and other accessories.)

what would u recommend for:

- case (much space)
- mobo (dual cpu + dual core
- cpu
- soundcard (maybe onboard?)
- gfx-card (enough to play newer games with)
- ram (oc-able)

thanx for any advice / recommendation?
 

maxxum

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Look into SGI. PC's are not designed for this sort of dedicated work. The amount of time researching compatibility issues, fining suitable hardware and worrying about software issues is just not worth it in a production environment unless you purchase a pre-built machine that someone is going to support and you don’t have to worry about any issues. If you want Windows then buy two machines. SGI and other workstation makers are much better suited, period.
 

tcdude

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ok, maybe i went a little overboard...

i looked into SGI and i didn't find a suitable system that fits my needs (i still would like to have it as a spare gaming rig)...
let's say it doesn't have to be a 4 core system, but still really cpu-powerful. what options do i have?

has anyone expierence with the intel EE 955? it has 2 cores and supports HT? does this mean, the system actually recognises 4 logical cores?
 

maxxum

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Not to press the issue, but the Prism runs on Linux which means you can run Windows (lite) in a “window”. :)

Anyway, not sure what you are asking, but the but regardless of if it does or not the OS dictates how many cores are going to be used and I’m not sure if Windows XP SP2 can go beyond 2 processors. I flipped through my software rolodex and found Windows 2003 and the two I have both say 8 processors, one Windows 2000 server disk says 2 processors and another (enterprise) says 8 and Windows 2000 SP4 states 2 processors. Windows 64 I believe will have two or three versions like XP does now with different supported processor configurations.
 

Ycon

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You will definately have a lot of fun with a Pentium EE 955. It will perform almost as good as 2 Opteron 270 at x64 Encoding (at massively lower cost) and will OC like mad. Too bad there arent any dual Socket 775 Mobos...
 

tcdude

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ok, maybe my english isn't at the top (stupid, german/italian speaking swissguy duhh :tongue: ...)

to make myself clear(er):

i love linux. i'm using various dists for various things such as programming, server, and as multimedia stations.

the target of the system i'd like to build is to use it mainly as a work computer with the capability of gaming. so it will defenetly need a M$ os (i'm aware of the various types of wine...).
i already own a dell xps m170 exclusively for gaming and i do not intend to go SLI or X-Fire anytime soon, because i'm not that kind a hardcore gamer (... and i'd rather wait until quad-gpu counts as standard :D )

so would the intel 955 EE be my best bet or would u guys propose something else?
 

TabrisDarkPeace

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I'd like to build a rig which will mainly be used for encoding video, photoshop and programming (at least 2 screens attached). I'd also like to use it as a gamecomputer tough only when I host LAN-partys where someone doesn't have to bring his own computer.

ok now 3rd edit... hdd's i already know that i'm gonna take 2 74gig raptors in raid 0 config.

The general idea was to set up a system with 2 dual-core cpu's (opteron? is it at all possible?) I have no preferences what so ever of brand... (no brand fanboy, but power/speed/oc-able fanboy)
Noise doesn't matter, acutally i like it when my rig sounds like a jet turbine. $$$ is also no issue (i'd like to keep it under 5000$, whithout monitor, and other accessories.)

Firstly, good luck finding a Tyan server class board (2 CPU sockets) that has CPU / RAM overclocking features.

You've got 2 processors, each using 100 watts or so of power, you'll be needing an EPS12V PSU, with EPS12V 24 pin (not ATX 24 pin), and most likely a seperate 8 pin connector for dedicated CPU power. Overclocking the CPUs is unwise to say the least, you don't have the headroom you do like on 'typical' desktop machines with 480w PSUs and only 1 populated processor socket.

You might be looking at the more gimiky Asus, MSI, Abit, etc Dual Socket Opteron boards, (personally 'suggesting' the Abit one if you do though, you're less likely to have 'issues' if they do offer such a hybrid board - model 'SU-2S' rings a bell) assuming they keep their overclocking features in their server class boards. - One would suspect they don't, as overclocking 128x4 (vs 64x8) PC3200 Reg ECC DDR-SDRAM is a very lame idea anyway. (Server boards for Opteron 200 series or Intel Xeons are mostly going to require Registered DIMMs, they are key'd differently to normal 'UnBuffered' DIMMs too, just as a reminder to 'not even try it', ECC or not, they are key'd diff.)

Recommend 128x4 vs 64x8 (Corsair can't make good server RAM btw, for this very reason), as you get ChipKill(tm) ECC, vs the plain ECC. Depends on requirements but if you are looking a 'server class' gear I'd also personally recommend doing this. 100's of idiots will tell you 128x4 is 'inferior low quality gear' because they are either: Clueless, Heard someone else say it and don't ask questions, just 'pushing their stock'... or all of the above :p - Please ignore such idiots for your own sake.

You might be able to find one board that optionally uses ECC, but UnBuffered (normal) DIMMs, but they would be extremely rare.

For Video Editing and Programming nothing would beat the Opteron 200 series (Ideally 2 x dual-cores = 4 cores total, x64, aggregated memory controller, very similar to servers)... you'll be able to code for both Win32/x86 and Win64/x64 platforms, while ensuring your applications are well threaded (for splitting workload over 4 processors).

Video Encoding Wise, Microsoft have a 4-way version of Windows Media Encoder (X64 Edition) for outputting with HD (High-Def) content, and shrinking videos down while keeping quality very high:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/default.aspx
and
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/versions.aspx

I don't understand the "I'd also like to use it as a gamecomputer tough only when I host LAN-partys where someone doesn't have to bring his own computer." comment, it will only be one computer and only one person will be able to game on it at a LAN. Although it would be able to host at least 3 dedicated game servers on the same machine, while it is being played on.... it will not however permit two people to play as clients on the one machine, even with SLI and/or two monitors, etc, etc - It just doesn't work that way if that is what you're dreaming of.

Or in laymens terms: You don't buy a $5,000 PC, potentially with 2 high end video cards to 'share' the video rendering between 2 people. For dedicated servers (CPU affinity recommended) and gaming (as an admin or otherwise), yeah sure they rock..... but if people want a PC they pay for their own or use a 2nd 'spare' PC (to encourage them to use their own rig).

The downside is gaming performance would not be as high with a quad-core Opteron as say a single socket Athlon 64 FX, or Athlon 64 X2, or Intel Pentium D / EE-XE for a similar price.

If gaming install a dedicated sound card aswell, I'm using an anboard Analog Devices AD1981B and (because most games are not running over 2-4 isolated threads) when there are many sounds it can slow down.... Getting a Creative X-Fi (XtremeMusic) Sound Card to counter this 'mistake' of mine though. (Expected it to happen, and it did....).

If you are going to use Adobe Premiere Pro recall that it can offload / accelerate work load using nVidia GeForce 7800 series cards, and some ATI cards aswell from memory, in addition to using the dual/quad-core power, for serious performance in video editing work.... most dual-socket Opteron boards use the nForce Pro 2200 + 2050 btw ( http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce_pro.html ) chipset, aswell as perhaps an AMD-8000 series (more drivers still....), and AMD PCI-X, etc tunnel chipsets.

If planning on installing 4 GB RAM, or using NUMA to aggregate memory performance (12.8 GB/sec peak most likely), the following will / may apply:

In Windows XP Pro (Win32/x86) only expect to be able to address 2.75 GB, with NUMA enabled or disabled, even with PAE-36 bit addressing, as Windows XP Pro has the 4 GB limit, and doesn't really use PAE to its full advantage (2003 Server can though). As 1.25 GB of the memory address range will be used for all the PCI devices I/O, etc in the system. (This is one way processors communicate to the PCI bus/es).
With NUMA enabled the two nodes might also be different sizes, and this can cause some minor issues.
Squeezing the Win32 Kernel into 1 GB (or so) address space (not usable by applications) also can limit PTE's and affect video encoding applications.

The above is totally normal for any system with 4 GB RAM installed btw, just most 'desktop' PCs will be able to address 3.50 GB of the 4 GB (check system properties on any machine with 4 GB installed). You may be able to get more usable 32 bit address space by disabling devices not used in the BIOS and shifting (a single) video card to the 'other' (yes other) PCIe x16 slot in some server mainboards. The address space is not just used for memory and this is a very common misconception.

However, in Windows XP x64 Edition, or 2003 Server (x64), you won't have the above issues.

Typical desktop / workstation machines with only 2 GB installed will notice none of the above problems. With 3 GB installed in Win32/x86 it is possible they may notice the low PTE issue during some workloads.

I don't think Linux segregates the address space into two slices (Application / Kernel) though, so it would not be affected... there are a few minor technical issues to be aware of too, but they are well documented and recent 2.6.x Kernels are very prepared for it. (Linux has been available for such platforms longer, and handles them better.... Microsoft relied on the 'Server' editions of Windows for PAE-36 addressing, which is also used for the NX/XD bit, but the artificial limit still exists in the non-server versions of their Win32/x86 OS..... thus WinXP x64 Ed is the cheapest option if you only need 'so much' backwards compatibility... for most games x64 works fine).


Extended Notes:

I am running such a rig myself (see signature) and may be able to assist. My contact details are on my website (see signature).
Anything you did't know about PC's before building such a beat, you'll likely learn quickly, or while trying 'this and that' (you're a Linux guy after all) on whichever 'Multi-Rig' you end up leaning towards.

I've commented mostly on AMD + nVidia here, but I am no FanBoy, remember Intel, +others, aswell as ATI, nVidia +others.

You may be better off building 2 x $2,500 machines, or a $3350 rig, and a $1650 rig for example, if you are into LAN gaming, etc

I am also not sure if Linux can 'cluster' machines for video editing, and if said 'clusters' can accelerate encoding using video cards in said 'clusters nodes'.

nVidia under Linux is easier... esp if into native Linux Unreal, Quake, etc,... as is my understanding anyway, if you're experienced then ATI under Linux may be 'a walk in the park' aswell for you.

I've crammed what I can into a A4 'Tabris Super Sized' special double post special edition. :p
 

TabrisDarkPeace

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You will definately have a lot of fun with a Pentium EE 955. It will perform almost as good as 2 Opteron 270 at x64 Encoding (at massively lower cost) and will OC like mad. Too bad there arent any dual Socket 775 Mobos...

Are there any dual-socket 775 mainboards at all ?, because the Pentium EE 955 processor shouldn't support dual socket capability at all.

The Intel Xeon series exists for this very reason.

Any yes, the video encoding performance of them is very similar to my own system..... at a much lower cost :( - (not really that sad about it though)

Some useful links:

Intel:
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/index.htm?iid=HMPAGE+Header_2_Product_Processors

AMD: (less consolidated info, but good platform info in bottom link)
http://www.amdcompare.com/us-en/desktop/
http://www.amdcompare.com/us-en/opteron/
http://multicore.amd.com/


Compatibility is not the huge issue everyone makes it out to be either, SGI are not making x86/x64 capable machines, and thus can't run Windows XP / XP x64 / Server 2003, etc - And yes Windows XP Pro and x64 both support 2 x dual-core processors for a 'quad-core' total (be it physical cores, or 4 logical procossors, via hyperthreading... Doubt it supports 2 x dual-cores, when each core is hyperthreaded though, which would be 8 logical processors, you'd need Server 2003 for that most likely).
 

tcdude

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8O wow....

firstly, thanks very much for the extremely conclusive and rich answer.
secondly, love your system u got in the signature, seems to be exactly what i'm looking for.

to clear up the thing with gameing: i'm well aware, that only one player will be playing at this station, even if i get a quad-gpu 7800 gtx 512... and i actually don't intend to buy such a thing. for my use it would be an absolute waste of money putting so much $ in graphics for a rig which mainly will be used for video editing, encoding and programming.

my conclusion at the moment would be:

- 2x opteron 270 or 275
- the tyan board u own (only problem might be where to find this at all in europe... if i don't find it here, i'll buy it whilst being in florida in spring for skydiving..)
- naturally 4x1gb ram (i'm defenetly going to contact u about that one once or twice again, hope u don't mind :? )
- some evga 7800 gtx, i'll decide in the last minute...
- 2-4 raptor 74gb / 150gb in raid 0 (is there a noticeable performance boost with 4 raptors? or should i choose a cheaper disk? is it worth the bucks spent?)
- power supply? want to be sure it holds up... the one listed in your sig?
- case? also here i've not found that antec for sale in switzerland...

thanks again for the nice reply :)
 

TabrisDarkPeace

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Cheers,

The Antec Titan 550 will hold the Tyan K8WE (S2895 varient) fine, but it is a tight fit, some of the SATA plugs are on an angle and near the drive cage, bear in mind the Titan 550 is a 'deep' case, but not as 'tall' as other Antec cases (like the TX1088 AMG). Thankfully SATA data cables are very bendy and clip in well. It isn't unusually short, just not as tall as some. Holds many HDD's, easy to access drive cage, front door comes off, unscrew 2 thumb screws, open 2nd 'alloy' door, then HDDs are ready to be swapped out, etc

The board lacks SATA-II, but does have NCQ, etc support. Since no drive can actually sustain 125 MB/sec, and when using SATA-RAID each drive gets dedicated (P2P) bandwidth (vs SCSI 320 MB, where many drives, say 6, may be choked by the interface in some cases) it doesnt make jack difference. If you really need SATA-II though, you can always run LSI, Adaptec, etc SATA/SAS RAID-0/1/5/6 using one of three dedicated PCI-X slots (Up to 133 MHz x 64 bit, 1 GB/sec, dedicated bridges, etc... far better than plain old PCI's 133 MB/sec shared bus).

RAID-5 using the nVidia drivers is still done via software for (the XOR calculations), but when you've got 4 processors and large OS disk caches do you really care ? (RAID in Linux can be more challenging on this board, esp if you want RAID in both Windows and Linux, I'd recommend a dedicated 'true hardware offload' PCI-X RAID card as above).

Case size / spec wise (For Europe) see:
http://www.antec.com/ec/pro_en_perfTX.html
vs
http://www.antec.com/ec/productDetails.php?ProdID=01550

Notice the Titan is 'extra deep' for Xeon / Opteron EPS dual-socket sized mainboards.

Also note that only the PSUs would likely differ between Australia and Europe, the cases are most likely the same. (Different power points, and ~110V @ 60 Hz vs ~230V 50 Hz source current.)

Many 'server class' systems have 'f***ing loud' PSUs aswell, so was happy with the Antec TruePower II 550w (EPS12V varient, also backwards compatible with ATX12V v2.0#) noise wise. I'm using the stock AMD heatsinks (As they as very nice for a 'stock' heatsink) but replaced the fans with a 80mm>70mm funnel, with a Panasonic (PanFlo or PanaFlo in the industry) 80mm fan as they are quieter with similar CFM (cubic feet per minute) movement of air, it also directs air over the centre of the heatsink, the hottest part.

The Tyan 2U Rack-Units generally have 'loud / hauls ass' cooling solutions.
See: http://www.tyan.com/ ; for various details.

The system is still loud, as far as I'm concerned anyway :p, but it is quiter than other typical PCs I've seen (well heard) at LAN parties. If someone is sitting next to this they won't be complaining about fan noise that is for sure. As the case lacks CPU vents (never been an issue) and VGA vent (on the side of the case, also never been an issue) - Because of this the noise level is lowered compared to cases with the vents. It does have a 120mm rear fan with L/M/H fan speed settings, but it doesn't always start spinning in the 'Low' setting, to move hot air out fast.

EDIT: Also note the Antec Titan 550 and TX1088AMG cases are quite heavy, which might be an OH&S issue if you're planning to move them around frequently. Cold rolled steel isn't light, but provides better protection against EMI, magnetic feilds, etc. (IBM did tests on this ages ago, and solar flares can/could cause memory errors - no joke - Got a recent PDF on it, also with the ChipKill(tm) ECC information, etc)

I am concerned about the PSU I've selected though, as Anandtech did an article on it indicating it wouldn't work with the exact board I've selected..... but never encountered such 'major issues' (as Anandtech are saying), even during very heavy synthetitic stress testing. - As the PSUs different between Australia and Europe I'd research this a little more, or get 'in shop' stress testing performed. (72 hours in various tests is more than enough, but you'd want to be damn sure if you do select it).

Also bear in mind the Opterons don't actually support Cool'n'Quiet, only the older PowerNow!. This is because the memory controller is integrated on the CPU (good & bad), and changing the voltage of the processors would affect stability of both the processors (still dedicated rail, but sudden changes in load would still be bad), and as running Registered RAM, have similar potential issues there aswell. AMD have a 'driver' that does a software version of Cool'n'Quiet for Linux, but not for Windows. However because it only uses PowerNow! you aren't really all that affected by that 'weird dual-core performance bug' present in Windows. The downside is power consumption may be higher than expected at low system loads, but still reasonable. (When in standby mode the load is almost 0 watts though, so if setup like that and using WOL, etc you can control the power usage.)

I've got some of my original design notes near the bottom of: http://users.on.net/~darkpeace/hardware/Opteron270.html ; you'll notice my dodgy webpage hasn't been updated for awhile aswell.

If you want to RealVNC over to check a few things out I may be able to help (bearing in mind I work and the TimeZone difference, and my weird sleep patterns).
 

TabrisDarkPeace

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No offence or anything,

- Corsair RAM suggested above is 64x8 (not 128x4)
- Not sure, but suspect the Tyan K8WE (S2895) will not fit in that case

If we could post photos in these forums at times that would help heaps. (sigh).
 

TabrisDarkPeace

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The board is in the SSI CEB 3.0 (12" x 13") form factor though, not Extended ATX. Athlough they may be similar enough to fit the board.

The case you've recommended is also rather 'deep' like the Antec Titan 550 (and even that is a tight fit IMHO) so it looks OK I guess.

Here are some more websites to help people planning similar systems:

http://www.k8we.com/ - Take with a grain of salt, and upgrade to BIOS 1.02 dispite what they say, you'll have a few niggly issues otherwise but this site over dramatizes things.
http://www.ssiforum.org/ - Info on form factor, power, etc


.... and it would appear the Cool Master Stacker series is OK for the K8WE aswell. - Not a fan of windowed cases personally, so never really considered alternatives in that respect.