Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Of what value is TAS?

Last response: in Video Games
Share
May 2, 2005 11:27:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
Great.

If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value true
airspeed has to a pilot.

Dallas

More about : tas

May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 02 May 2005 19:27:22 GMT, "Dallas"
<Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> brought up the following:
>
>So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
>Great. If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value
>true airspeed has to a pilot.
>
>Dallas
>


Will do a spreadsheet on this one.. also want to understand it better.


-G
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

When you file a flight plan with the FAA, you use your
TAS as the airspeed figure for one thing.





On Mon, 02 May 2005 19:27:22 GMT, "Dallas"
<Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:

>
>So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
>Great.
>
>If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value true
>airspeed has to a pilot.
>
>Dallas
>
Related resources
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8
> kts. Great.
>
> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value
> true airspeed has to a pilot.
>

If these are random figures, none. Are they from a actual readout/flight??
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value
true
> airspeed has to a pilot

In the smaller GA aircraft, true airspeed serves many functions. A
couple off the top of my head:

1) Fuel required: In zero wind, true airspeed equals ground speed.
In a wind scenario, true airspeed plus or minus the wind factor equals
ground speed. The speed across the ground will give you time required
to make your waypoint/destination. Fuel usage in small aircraft is a
measure of fuel burned per hour flown. Thus, if you have the time it
will take to get to your destination and you know how much fuel you
burn per hour, you will know how much fuel you need to get to your
destination.

2) Health of the engine(s): Since true airspeed is a known value for
a given altitude and temperature, a deviation from this known value is
a potential indication of an issue with the engine.

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas,
True Airspeed is necessary to know if a pilot is calculating things like
groundspeed and time to waypoint(s), as well as fuel consumption. It's not
too critical if you are simply flying locally, but if you are flying a long
cross country, at near maximum weight, with limited fuel, then TAS comes in
pretty handy. Some airspeed indicators have adjustable rings around the edge
of the dial that can be set for temperature and pressure, and then show TAS.

Randy L.

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:uavde.3240$BE3.1024@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
> Great.
>
> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value true
> airspeed has to a pilot.
>
> Dallas
>
>
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:

> Ok.. perhaps my question should have been how do you accurately
determine
> the wind speed and direction aloft, because without that factor TAS
could be
> dangerously deceptive?

The old time pilots here are going to get all over my case on this one
<G>, but one method is to use the GPS. The Garmin GNS430/530 has a
winds aloft calculator page that requires the pilot to enter indicated
airspeed, altitude, outside temperature, and barometric pressure, which
results in TAS. The pilot then enters indicated heading and the GPS
will calculate winds aloft.

Of course, since you are interested in groundspeed for fuel usage
monitoring, you don't even need to calculate winds aloft. The GPS
shows groundspeed on many of its navigation pages.

There certainly is a manual method for calculating groundspeed that is
taught during the cross country section of the private pilot training.
This involves timing between two known ground features or navigational
waypoints.

> I was thinking that one use of TAS would be to determine wind speed
by
> timing the distance between two points and subtracting ground speed
from
> TAS. But at that point.. so what? What we really wanted here was
> groundspeed anyway.

Look at the GPS or, if not equipped, do as you suggested. Choose two
points that are only about 30 nm apart, then time the trip between
them. With this groundspeed, you can then calculate an estimated time
of arrival to the next waypoint along your flight. This time can then
be used to calculate an estimated fuel flow. The important point is to
continually perform this calculation in the likely event that winds
aloft changes direction or speed.

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Randy wrote:

> The few times that I have calculated and flown a cross country
flights
> using TAS and winds aloft forecasts really surprised me in how
accurate
> those winds aloft predictions were.

And when the actual winds aloft is different than the forecast winds
aloft, it will always be a lot stronger.

Murphy's Aviation Law # 78. :) 

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar wrote:

>
http://community.webshots.com/­scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action­=showMyPh...

<snip>

Hey, Quilly, do you have to somehow allow non-members of Webshots to
see these pictures? I am getting a Webshots error stating that I am
not the owner of these pictures.

> For Dally, my answer is that IAS is needed for you to keep the
aircraft in
> the air. The TAS is essential for navigation. So IAS is for pilots
and TAS
> is for navigators. If you are single handed then you must have both.

Hey, I like this. Right to the point. Very nice...

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Gregory wrote:

> Please describe more about the specifics of CAS and TAS.

Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) is Indicated Airspeed (IAS) corrected for
airspeed indicator and/or installation errors. The Pilot's Operating
Handbook of smaller aircraft contains the IAS to CAS table, but
normally the difference between CAS and IAS is only about a knot or two
(at least when discussing the airspeeds of the standard
non-turboprop/jet GA aircraft).

True Airspeed (TAS) is Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) corrected for
temperature and altitude. As Dudley indicated, TAS and CAS are about
the same at sea level, but as an aircraft climbs higher, TAS is greater
than CAS.

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Gregory wrote:

> Please describe more about
> the specifics of CAS and TAS.. is that Total or True AS?

[Apologies if my previous response appeared on your server. Google
dropped my first reply, however, which is pretty bizarre considering I
posted from Google. Now I have to type the whole thing over again from
memory]

Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) is Indicated Airspeed (IAS - that which is
shown on the airspeed indicator) corrected for airspeed indicator
and/or installation error. The pilot's operating handbook contains a
table showing the IAS to CAS values. For the non-turboprop/jet GA
aircraft, though, the difference between CAS and IAS is usually only a
few knots or less.

True Airspeed (TAS) is CAS corrected for temperature and altitude. As
Dudley pointed out, TAS and CAS are about the same at sea level.
However, as the aircraft climbs, TAS is greater than CAS.

--
Peter
May 2, 2005 11:27:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On 2 May 2005 16:01:32 -0700, "pr" <proffice@twcny.rr.com> brought the
following to our attention:

>Gregory wrote:
>
>> Please describe more about the specifics of CAS and TAS.
>
>Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) is Indicated Airspeed (IAS) corrected for air-
>speed indicator and/or installation errors. The Pilot's Operating Handbook
>of smaller aircraft contains the IAS to CAS table, but normally the difference
>between CAS and IAS is only about a knot or two (at least when discussing
>the airspeeds of the standard non-turboprop/jet GA aircraft).

thanks Peter.. very good reply. I mostly enjoy Simming the old
jetliners. Occasionally a Beech turbo-twin!

>True Airspeed (TAS) is Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) corrected for temperature
>and altitude. As Dudley indicated, TAS and CAS are about the same at sea
>level, but as an aircraft climbs higher, TAS is greater than CAS.

Between your reply and discussion from the `old pros'.. it should be
enough to create a series of curves for TAS. I think it would be good,
if users are so inclined and have the time, to work through the math
in the above link.


-Gregory
May 2, 2005 11:27:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On 2 May 2005 16:06:16 -0700, "pr" <proffice@twcny.rr.com> brought the
following to our attention:

>[Apologies if my previous response appeared on your server. Google
>dropped my first reply, however, which is pretty bizarre considering I
>posted from Google. Now I have to type the whole thing over again from
>memory]

iT showed up thru giganews ok.. replied to it already.


-G
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:27:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"pr" <proffice@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1115071495.603600.88620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> And when the actual winds aloft is different than the forecast winds
> aloft, it will always be a lot stronger.

You mean, "it will always be a lot stronger to your detriment." It's almost
never stronger in your favor (tailwind). :) 
--
Chris
http://www.mcmartinville.com
May 2, 2005 11:34:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Gregory"
> Will do a spreadsheet on this one..

Yea! A spreadsheet! :-)


Dallas
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:48:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:uavde.3240$BE3.1024@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
> Great.
>
> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value true
> airspeed has to a pilot.
>
> Dallas

TAS is your ACTUAL speed through the air. Think about the ramifications of
this information as it pertains to all your navigational computations and it
will make more sense.
Dudley
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 12:22:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"CRaSH" <sorry@aint-here.spam.com> wrote in message
news:jNvde.681$DC2.173@okepread01...
> Dallas wrote:
>> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8
>> kts. Great.
>>
>> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value
>> true airspeed has to a pilot.
>>
>
> If these are random figures, none. Are they from a actual
> readout/flight??

True airspeed is IAS (CAS) corrected for air density. It represents the
airplane's ACTUAL speed through the air mass in which it's traveling. In
this case, with a TAS of 157kts, the GROUND SPEED of the airplane with a
40Kt headwind would be 117kts. This ground speed will affect every
navigational computation used in the flight that determines time enroute and
fuel expended. TAS is a VERY important factor to determine in flight
planning.
Using IAS in this case of 140kts, the ground speed would be computed at
100kts deducting for the 40kt headwind. This is a totally incorrect
calculation that would affect all times enroute, and even more important,
all fuel computations for the flight.
The differences in this instance are not all that great, but you take a 747
to high altitude and start using the IAS for your navigational problems and
you'll be in fuel trouble in short order! :-))
IAS should be considered as an indicator telling you where you are in
relation to your 1g stall speed. It's useful when considering performance
such as approach speeds, stall speeds, Vx, Vy, and the like, but when it
comes down to needing to know how fast the airplane is ACTUALLY MOVING
through the air mass, you MUST know your TAS, and that means correcting your
IAS for factors affecting air density.
Hope this helps
Dudley
May 3, 2005 12:22:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> True airspeed

Geezz, I just hate it when people make sense....

When I first glanced at the figures I was comparing 100kt ground speed with
157kt TAS and it just didn't compute in my confuluted (that's an Arky term)
logic.......... d:->))
May 3, 2005 12:22:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 02 May 2005 20:22:06 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
<dhenriques@noware .net> brought the following to our attention:

>True airspeed is IAS (CAS) corrected for air density. It represents the
>airplane's ACTUAL speed through the air mass in which it's traveling. In
>this case, with a TAS of 157kts, the GROUND SPEED of the airplane with a
>40Kt headwind would be 117kts. This ground speed will affect every
>navigational computation used in the flight that determines time enroute and
>fuel expended. TAS is a VERY important factor to determine in flight planning.

yep.. Yippie.... a spreadsheet. :) 


Ok here's a GOOD link for the relations needed..

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/q0049.s...


Now you can determine atmospheric..

Pressure ratio - Delta

Temperature ratio - Theta

Density ratio - Sigma


Found some other web pages which provide definitions.. so the
next step is to put it ALL together. Please describe more about
the specifics of CAS and TAS.. is that Total or True AS?


-Gregory
May 3, 2005 12:54:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dudley Henriques"
> In this case, with a TAS of 157kts, the GROUND SPEED of
> the airplane with a 40Kt headwind would be 117kts.

Ok.. perhaps my question should have been how do you accurately determine
the wind speed and direction aloft, because without that factor TAS could be
dangerously deceptive?

I was thinking that one use of TAS would be to determine wind speed by
timing the distance between two points and subtracting ground speed from
TAS. But at that point.. so what? What we really wanted here was
groundspeed anyway.


Dallas
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 12:54:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:6swde.4055$GQ5.2873@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Ok.. perhaps my question should have been how do you accurately determine
> the wind speed and direction aloft, because without that factor TAS could
> be
> dangerously deceptive?
>
Dallas,
The "winds aloft" prediction is part of the weather briefing that most
pilots study before a flight. In the US these winds are part of the Area
Forcast (FA) that can be gotten several ways. One way is using the internet,
and a program like DUATS, which is a service that helps pilots plan cross
country flights. Another way is to call the local Flight Service Station
when you file your initial flightplan and request the winds aloft forecast.
Or you can contact FSS while in the air for an updated Winds Aloft briefing.
Winds Aloft data is gathered by the National Weather Service using weather
balloons that collect data such as barometric pressure, temperature,
humidity, and wind speed & direction. The NWS releases these balloons on a
regular schedule, and use the collected data from them to make their
precdictions and forecasts. Another source of winds aloft data comes from
pilots who make PIREPS (Pilot REPorts) while in flight.
The few times that I have calculated and flown a cross country flights
using TAS and winds aloft forecasts really surprised me in how accurate
those winds aloft predictions were. I was reaching my waypoints within only
a few miunutes difference from the time that I had calculated.

Randy L.
May 3, 2005 12:58:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"CRaSH"
> If these are random figures, none. Are they from a actual
readout/flight??

Not random, they are the TAS for ISA 140 kt. and Altitude 6,000.

Dallas
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 1:03:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is
> 156.8 kts [...]
>
>> If these are random figures, none. Are they from a actual
>> readout/flight??
>
> Not random, they are the TAS for ISA 140 kt. and Altitude 6,000.

That's the TAS if the temperature at 6,000' is 15C (which is NOT ISA
temp). But if it's 0C (32F) outside, then your TAS is only 152 kts...
about 5 kts less... so after six hours of flight, you'll land about 30
nm short of your destination if you used the ~157 kt figure to
calculate fuel duration <grin>.

Too many online TAS "calculators" use the 2% per 1000' rule of thumb
instead of real formulae. I can't seem to easily find one that does
the right thing, though.

Cheers,
Kev
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 1:56:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:6swde.4055$GQ5.2873@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Dudley Henriques"
>> In this case, with a TAS of 157kts, the GROUND SPEED of
>> the airplane with a 40Kt headwind would be 117kts.
>
> Ok.. perhaps my question should have been how do you accurately determine
> the wind speed and direction aloft, because without that factor TAS could
> be
> dangerously deceptive?

Depends. It can be determined with instruments, or visually using points of
reference along a known course line. Visually, wind is estimated, then
corrected to produce a new point of reference down the line affirming the
correction's effect. Basically, in light airplanes, you are starting out
with an estimated correction based on forcast winds aloft at your cruising
altitude, then correcting for drift as you progress along your course line.
The difference between your desired course and the heading you have to
maintain to realize that course is your wind correction angle.
Modern navigation devices can produce this for you electronically.
Same with airspeed. You begin with an estimated TAS based on your IAS at
cruise corrected for temp and density. Then you time between two known
points to obtain enroute data. Then you adjust for any time difference shown
on your estimate and get your ground speed. Then you use the ground speed to
determine your arrival time at the next point or destination.
Basically, all flying is is starting with an estimate based on known data,
then adjusting that estimate (on the fly so to speak) to reflect any
changes. Finally, using this process of constant correction, you should
arrive at some hard data that will produce an accurate result for your final
figures for the trip.
Simple!! Sort of a "check" and re-check thing gets it done for you. :-))
Dudley
Dudley
>
> I was thinking that one use of TAS would be to determine wind speed by
> timing the distance between two points and subtracting ground speed from
> TAS. But at that point.. so what? What we really wanted here was
> groundspeed anyway.
>
>
> Dallas
>
>
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:16:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> schreef in bericht
news:5uvde.2725$pe3.326@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
> news:uavde.3240$BE3.1024@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
>> Great.
>>
>> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value
>> true
>> airspeed has to a pilot.
>>
>> Dallas
>
> TAS is your ACTUAL speed through the air. Think about the ramifications of
> this information as it pertains to all your navigational computations and
> it will make more sense.
> Dudley
>
Dudley,

In the times we did not have groundspeed readout readily available, I used
it as an estimate for my groundspeed. It gets quite close. The same for Mach
no. M 0.7 is almost 7 (statute) miles a minute. Agree?

Loek
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:16:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"L. Mulder" <lbn.mulder@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:D 561pu$tm3$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> schreef in bericht
> news:5uvde.2725$pe3.326@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
>> news:uavde.3240$BE3.1024@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> So your indicated airspeed is 140 kts. Your true airspeed is 156.8 kts.
>>> Great.
>>>
>>> If you are flying into a 40 kt headwind, I'm just not sure what value
>>> true
>>> airspeed has to a pilot.
>>>
>>> Dallas
>>
>> TAS is your ACTUAL speed through the air. Think about the ramifications
>> of this information as it pertains to all your navigational computations
>> and it will make more sense.
>> Dudley
>>
> Dudley,
>
> In the times we did not have groundspeed readout readily available, I used
> it as an estimate for my groundspeed. It gets quite close. The same for
> Mach no. M 0.7 is almost 7 (statute) miles a minute. Agree?
>
> Loek

Basically, TAS and IAS are the same at SL on a standard day. As altitude
increases, so does TAS due to lower temperature and density. A good rule of
thumb is to add about 2% of your IAS per 1000 feet of altitude. That's
pretty close for the average puddle jumper.
For bigger and faster stuff, it's best to get an accurate reading based on
known data.
Dudley
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:33:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

x> The old time pilots here are going to get all over my case on this one
> <G>, but one method is to use the GPS.


OK so you tempted me out of my cage!
We old timers had nav calculators 50/60 years ago which were circular slide
rules very like the plastic nav calculators the PPL has today. I have mine
still. I will put up photos of it for you to see. You entered the altitude
and temperature and IAS and read off the TAS very quickly.

http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?a...

http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?a...

http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?a...




For Dally, my answer is that IAS is needed for you to keep the aircraft in
the air. The TAS is essential for navigation. So IAS is for pilots and TAS
is for navigators. If you are single handed then you must have both.


Cheers,

Quilly


An individual reply goes into my spam filter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:04:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message

news:ewwde.4060$GQ5.3807@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Dallas;

Here is a fine article that I consider a very good source for just the
information you are seeking. It's basically about density altitude, but TAS
is covered very well for you.

Dudley

Article follows;
By David Ison for Plane and Pilot;

According to the laws of physics, if the temperature and/or pressure of a
gas are altered, density (remember: number of molecules per unit of volume)
also will change. For example, if you heat gas, the air molecules begin to
move faster and strike each other. As they perform this dance, they spread
out. Think about it like breaking the balls on a pool table. One fast-moving
molecule comes in and hits some other molecules, speeding them up and
spreading them out. In the long run, fewer molecules will occupy a given
unit of volume, such as a square foot.

The opposite is true with decreases in temperature—molecules slow down and
become more closely packed. Take water, for instance. There are more water
molecules in a cubic foot of liquid (cooler) water than in a cubic foot in
gaseous (hotter) form. If you don’t believe me, weigh them and see for
yourself (more molecules equals more weight!).

Pressure also affects density. Increasing pressure smooshes molecules
together, packing in more per unit of volume. In other words, density
increases. The reverse occurs if pressure is decreased. When pressure is
released, molecules can stretch out and have some breathing room. As they
spread out, there are fewer per square foot, or whatever measurement you
use, as density decreases. While variations in weather conditions have an
effect on the ambient pressure, the biggest influence is altitude. Remember
that for every 1,000 feet in altitude change, there’s one inch of mercury
change in pressure. So the difference in molecular compression due to
ambient pressure is much less in Denver, Colo., at around 5,000 feet versus
Tampa, Fla., which sits near sea level.

Density altitude is commonly referred to as the actual altitude at which the
plane “feels” it’s flying. For instance, an airplane taking off in Billings,
Mont., (elevation 3,500 feet) with an altimeter setting of 29.82 and a
temperature of 40 degrees C is being flown at a density altitude of 7,100
feet—the aircraft actually “feels” as if it’s flying at 7,100 feet. So the
engine, wings and propeller act as though they’re much higher than what is
read off of the altimeter. Hopefully, every pilot is aware that his or her
plane flies a lot different at higher-density altitudes and some care is in
order. That’s the layman’s version. Just like everything else in aviation,
though, density altitude has an official defini-tion: “pressure altitude
corrected for non-standard temperature.” Do you recall how temperature and
pressure both influence density? Aren’t those two key words found in the
definition of density altitude? Absolutely. So, basically, by calculating
density altitude, we’re figuring out how atmospheric pressure and ambient
temperature affect the airplane.

In fact, increases in density altitude, that is, fewer molecules, decreases
the available horsepower created by the aircraft’s engine and steals
performance from the wings and propellers. It also causes the aircraft’s
true airspeed to increase. But how can the number of air molecules, which
are so small they can’t even be seen by the naked eye, keep airplanes from
becoming airborne and rob them of vital performance?

In order for engines to create power, oxygen is required so that fuel can be
burned. If you have more oxygen (molecules) available, you can burn more gas
and, in turn, create more power. If there’s less oxygen available, which is
the case at higher-density altitudes, less power can be produced.
Furthermore, the engine likes a particular ratio of fuel to oxygen. This is
why at density altitudes near sea level, which are ripe with oxygen
molecules, full rich mixture is used. Then, climbing up to higher altitudes
where air molecules, including oxygen, become more and more scarce, pilots
must reduce the fuel supplied to the engine by leaning the mixture. This
keeps the engine happy by maintaining its desired fuel-to-air ratio.

The wings and propellers function best in thick air, which is chock-full of
molecules. This is due to the part of the lift equation dealing with Newton’s
Third Law of Motion: For every action, there is an equal and opposite
reaction. As air flows over a wing, it’s dumped downward off of the aft end.
Each air molecule that makes this trip brings about an equal and opposite
reaction. More molecules, more reaction. If there is, say, 5,000 pounds of
air molecules being pushed down by the wing, there will be an equal and
opposite reaction of 5,000 pounds augmenting aircraft lift. At
higher-density altitudes, however, there are fewer molecules available.
Therefore, there’s less equal and opposite reaction, or less lift.

Unfortunately, propellers can only go so fast, usually somewhere in the
neighborhood of 2,500 rpm, which in thick air pushes lots of air molecules,
yielding more thrust than 2,500 rpm in thin air with its fewer particles.
But wings have to develop a certain amount of lift to support the weight of
the aircraft or else, obviously, the plane won’t fly! So how could you make
up for the decreased number of air molecules passing over the wing at
higher-density altitudes? What happens in the real world is that aircraft
must travel faster. The faster the wing goes, the more molecules will be
encountered at a given moment. More molecules, more lift.

Dig deep into your memory. What’s the definition of true airspeed (TAS)? It’s
“the speed of the airplane through the relatively undisturbed air mass.” We
just learned that in order to keep the plane flying at high-density
altitudes, the aircraft must travel through the air mass at a high rate of
speed. Hence, what’s actually increasing is the true airspeed. Going back to
our primary training, we know if true airspeed increases, so does
groundspeed. If your groundspeed is higher during landing, you know the
ground roll will be longer because there’s more speed to dissipate. And if
more speed is required to pass enough air molecules over the wing to make it
fly, the longer the takeoff roll will be as well.

How come the fact that the plane is traveling faster doesn’t show up on the
airspeed indicator? It’s because the airspeed indicator displays indicated
airspeed, which is derived from the impact pressure—the number of molecules
jammed into the pitot tube at a given moment. Since there are fewer
molecules available at higher-density altitudes, the pitot tube must pass
through the atmosphere faster to jam as many air molecules down its throat
as it would passing through thicker, more densely populated air.

This is why a 65-knot final approach speed is used whether you’re at sea
level (in thick air) or at high altitude (thin air), or on a hot day, etc.
At sea level, the plane travels around 65 knots TAS to encounter enough air
molecules to stuff 65 knots’ worth of impact pressure into the pitot tube.
While at higher altitudes, lower pressures or higher temperatures, the plane
has to travel, say, 80 knots TAS to pack the pitot tube full of enough
molecules to yield 65 knots worth of impact pressure.

Thus far, we’ve seen how increases in temperature and decreases in pressure
both lead to less dense air, thus higher-density altitudes. We’ve also seen
how high-density altitudes can decrease aircraft performance. There’s
another factor that many people neglect to take into account when
determining density altitude—humidity. Water vapor molecules can and do
displace nitrogen, oxygen and other gases. Considering that water molecules
weigh less than those of nitrogen or oxygen, if water displaces these other
elements in a particular parcel of air, it ends up weighing less and is thus
less dense (O2 has an atomic weight of 32, N2 has an atomic weight of 28,
and H2O is the lightest at an atomic weight of 18).

The lesser mass of the water molecules translates into less potential energy
when they’re pushed down off the back of a wing or propeller. The equal and
opposite reaction from the water molecules is less than if there were oxygen
or nitrogen molecules making the trip instead. Also, water doesn’t burn, so
whenever water displaces oxygen, there’s less of the latter available to the
combustion cylinders of the engine.

Keep in mind, too, that hotter air can hold more water than cool air. At a
given relative humidity, air at 15 degrees C contains less water vapor than
the air at a temperature of 30 degrees C. Of course, if there’s more water
in the air, it results in a higher-density altitude (less atmospheric
density). For example, a field with a pressure altitude of 5,000 feet, 37
degrees C and zero percent humidity bears a density altitude of around 8,600
feet. Increase the humidity to 100%, and the density altitude jumps to 9,500
feet. Evidently, you shouldn’t listen to the endless references that
humidity doesn’t have an affect on density altitude!

Considering how important density altitude is for the ability of the wing,
the propeller(s) and the engine to do their jobs, pilots should always go
the distance and check it prior to flying. Certainly, pilots need to use
caution when dealing with the three Hs: hot, high and humid conditions.
While the performance charts of most aircraft have a density-altitude
correction built in to the process of calculation, it’s not a bad idea to
figure out density altitude itself if for nothing more than shock value.
When was the last time you maneuvered an airplane, or even more important,
taken off or landed above 8,000 feet? Put that into consideration when the
density altitude you uncover is up there. At high-density altitudes, the
plane acts differently; it performs more sluggishly, if it performs at all.
So don’t let density altitude sneak up on you by being dense about it and
its dangers.
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:04:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
news:XKCde.2892$pe3.2265@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
>
> news:ewwde.4060$GQ5.3807@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Dallas;
>
> Here is a fine article that I consider a very good source for just the
> information you are seeking. It's basically about density altitude, but
> TAS is covered very well for you.
>
> Dudley
>
> Article follows;
> By David Ison for Plane and Pilot;
>

<Snip>

Dudley,

The heck with simming, this article went right into my instructional folder
for the real deal.

Summer is coming here in Arizona. In fact, relative to most of the counrty,
it's already here so high and hot are already a concern (not so much
humid...we are, after all, in a desert...)

The flying day now starts at 8am and soon will be moving back to 7am, then
6am then eventually, sunrise flights to help insure proper performance.

Some out there may remember the day several years ago that they said it was
"Too hot to fly in Phoenix..." Now you know why. It wasn't the actual
temperature, it was the lack of documented density altitude performance
numbers in the pilot's operating handbooks (POHs) of the major airlines.

Just for fun, take the C172 (or any normally asperated model) to Leadville,
CO and set custom wx with an ambient temp of 100 degrees F. Put some weight
in the plane with full tanks and see how hard it is to take off. Then, go
reset the temp to 32 degrees F and try it again...bet you'll see a
significant difference in ROC and take off roll. But, take note of the
airspeeds involved. 60kts IAS is 60kts IAS ... it just takes longer to get
there when you have high temps.

Jay Beckman
PP- ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
Chandler, AZ
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:46:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Jay;
Arizona has to be one of the best places we visited on our way out West. We
ended up in Flagstaff, then took the back roads through the mountain pass
and on up to Yellowstone. We didn't get to see Sedona. Everybody said it was
beautiful there.....but Flagstaff was the most beautiful place on the whole
trip!! :-)
Glad you could use the article.
Dudley

"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7_Cde.3561$D91.2993@fed1read01...
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
> news:XKCde.2892$pe3.2265@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:ewwde.4060$GQ5.3807@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> Dallas;
>>
>> Here is a fine article that I consider a very good source for just the
>> information you are seeking. It's basically about density altitude, but
>> TAS is covered very well for you.
>>
>> Dudley
>>
>> Article follows;
>> By David Ison for Plane and Pilot;
>>
>
> <Snip>
>
> Dudley,
>
> The heck with simming, this article went right into my instructional
> folder for the real deal.
>
> Summer is coming here in Arizona. In fact, relative to most of the
> counrty, it's already here so high and hot are already a concern (not so
> much humid...we are, after all, in a desert...)
>
> The flying day now starts at 8am and soon will be moving back to 7am, then
> 6am then eventually, sunrise flights to help insure proper performance.
>
> Some out there may remember the day several years ago that they said it
> was "Too hot to fly in Phoenix..." Now you know why. It wasn't the
> actual temperature, it was the lack of documented density altitude
> performance numbers in the pilot's operating handbooks (POHs) of the major
> airlines.
>
> Just for fun, take the C172 (or any normally asperated model) to
> Leadville, CO and set custom wx with an ambient temp of 100 degrees F.
> Put some weight in the plane with full tanks and see how hard it is to
> take off. Then, go reset the temp to 32 degrees F and try it again...bet
> you'll see a significant difference in ROC and take off roll. But, take
> note of the airspeeds involved. 60kts IAS is 60kts IAS ... it just takes
> longer to get there when you have high temps.
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP- ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
> Chandler, AZ
>
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:46:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
news:ymDde.2905$pe3.1903@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi Jay;
> Arizona has to be one of the best places we visited on our way out West.
> We ended up in Flagstaff, then took the back roads through the mountain
> pass and on up to Yellowstone. We didn't get to see Sedona. Everybody said
> it was beautiful there.....but Flagstaff was the most beautiful place on
> the whole trip!! :-)
> Glad you could use the article.
> Dudley
>

Glad you enjoyed our variety of scenery.

I'm sorry you never had the chance to experience Sedona from the air...truly
amazing. I could fly there every week and probably never get bored with it.

Jay
May 3, 2005 8:52:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar"
> So IAS is for pilots and TAS
> is for navigators.

Yes, nicely put... BUT....

If you are using TAS alone to navigate into a 40 kt headwind, two things
could happen: 1) You will miss your ETA. 2) You could run out of fuel.

(see next post :-)

Dallas
May 3, 2005 8:56:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dudley Henriques"
> Then you use the ground speed to
> determine your arrival time at the next point or destination.

It would seem that TAS's highest and best use is to calculate ground speed.

Why not just consider it just a part of the calculations of the formula on
the way to the calculation of ground speed?

In other words, I don't see why it's "a thing", it's really just "part of a
thing". Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only two speeds of importance in
aviation are IAS and ground speed. Why don't we talk in terms of just those
2 values.

Why on earth is it an entry on the flight plan. - Why wouldn't the FAA want
you to take winds aloft into consideration and make you calculate and enter
your ground speed, a far more useful number for both of us?

Dallas
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:56:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:kwDde.4778$GQ5.1494@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Dudley Henriques"
>> Then you use the ground speed to
>> determine your arrival time at the next point or destination.
>
> It would seem that TAS's highest and best use is to calculate ground
> speed.
>
> Why not just consider it just a part of the calculations of the formula on
> the way to the calculation of ground speed?
>
> In other words, I don't see why it's "a thing", it's really just "part of
> a
> thing". Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only two speeds of importance in
> aviation are IAS and ground speed. Why don't we talk in terms of just
> those
> 2 values.
>
> Why on earth is it an entry on the flight plan. - Why wouldn't the FAA
> want
> you to take winds aloft into consideration and make you calculate and
> enter
> your ground speed, a far more useful number for both of us?
>
> Dallas
>
>

It's been my flying experience so far (since Feb of 04) that ATC works in a
"No Wind" environment...

ATC wants you to fly 090 degrees but you are crabbed into a 10kt wind from
the north so that if you point your nose to 090, you're gonna be flying a
course of something more akin to 096 degrees because of drift. You crab 5
or 6 degrees to the left (nose to 085-ish) and voila, to ATC you're flying
090.

I have a suspicion (Dudley, correct me if I'm off base here...) that the
approximate TAS you put on a flight plan is for relative reference only.
ATC has cruise numbers for each type of aircraft (which is why they ask what
type you are...) and that helps them anticipate closure rates/overtaking
rates which are all relative regardless of the wind.

If I'm crossing the Sky Harbor Class Bravo airspace from south to north with
a tailwind, ATC knows that if I true out at around 115kts at 8000', then if
the wind is 20kts, then I'm gonna be moving over the ground at 135kts.
Conversely, if the wind were from the north, they know I'll be crawling
along at only 95kts.

I've not ever asked a controller if this is the case, but from my limited
experience so far...this is how it appears to the neophite pilot.

Jay B
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 10:41:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar wrote:

> I have just tested the photos again myself with perfect success,
> although the link YOU gave did not work. Try my links once more.

The link I provided was my attempt to quote you using Google's archaic
interface. Disregard that. However, the link in your post, which is
what I am using, returns an error about not being the owner and needing
to sign in. Of course, then, it makes sense that you wouldn't have a
problem with it, since you are most likely signed in to Webshots as the
owner of this photo album.

I recall reading another person posting pictures to Webshots and having
to make the photo album "public." Is there such an option in your
album?

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:34:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Chris wrote:

> You mean, "it will always be a lot stronger to your detriment." It's
almost
> never stronger in your favor (tailwind). :) 

Yep, you are certianly right. The problem with being immersed in the
details of this is that I was thinking headwinds, but failed to type
it.
Let me try again:

"When an actual headwind differs from the forecasted headwinds aloft,
it will always be a lot stronger."

(and, thanks to your input!)

"When an actual tailwind differs from the forecasted tailwinds aloft,
it will always be weaker."

- Murphy's Aviation Law #78 *and* #79. :-)

BTW, I am sure that some website actually documented Murphy's laws for
aviation. However, this is all I came up with:

Murphy's Law for Frequent Fliers:
http://www.pcuf.fi/~jrk/murphy/air.html


--
Peter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:58:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Jay wrote:

> It's been my flying experience so far (since Feb of 04) that ATC
works in a
> "No Wind" environment...

In the US, ATC does take wind into factor when they issue their
vectors. However, they expect an aircraft to fly the heading given to
the pilot, not the ground track.

Here's an example:

A very strong soutwesterly wind is blowing. Normally, in a no-wind
scenario, ATC issues a 070 vector to aircraft to join up with the 100
localizer. The controller might try this a few times, but 070 has
resulted in a few aircraft being blown through the localizer and having
to correct back to the south to re-join. Thus, the controllor starts
issuing 080 to join, knowing that the resulting ground track with the
strong winds blowing will be 070. The pilots are expected to fly 080
as the controller told them.

> ATC wants you to fly 090 degrees but you are crabbed into a 10kt wind
from
> the north so that if you point your nose to 090, you're gonna be
flying a
> course of something more akin to 096 degrees because of drift. You
crab 5
> or 6 degrees to the left (nose to 085-ish) and voila, to ATC you're
flying
> 090.

No, that is not correct, at least in the US. If ATC tells you to fly
090, you set your heading bug to 090, point your nose to 090 and fly
that vector. You are not to worry about your ground track or wind
correction in this case; ATC will do that for you. If a strong wind
is pushing you off ATC's intended course, they will issue you another
heading that will realign you.

You will see this in action when you train for your instrument rating
and fly under an instrument flight rules.

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:59:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> "Quilljar"
>> So IAS is for pilots and TAS
>> is for navigators.
>
> Yes, nicely put... BUT....
>
> If you are using TAS alone to navigate into a 40 kt headwind, two
> things could happen: 1) You will miss your ETA. 2) You could run
> out of fuel.
>
> (see next post :-)
>
> Dallas


But Dally, no-one would use TAS alone? You must always take wind speed and
direction in to account. The only thing that matters is ground speed as you
pointed out earlier, but you cannot calculaate that unless you have the True
Airspeed first.

As I have said before many times. 'I ain't never been lost while
navigating - although I was uncertain of my position for three days once.!'


--
Cheers,

Quilly


An individual reply goes into my spam filter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 12:02:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

>
> Hey, Quilly, do you have to somehow allow non-members of Webshots to
> see these pictures? I am getting a Webshots error stating that I am
> not the owner of these pictures.


I am sorry Peter, but I understand that Webshots are always publicly
available. I have just tested the photos again myself with perfect success,
although the link YOU gave did not work. Try my links once more.

Anyone else have a problem? If so I will try and fix it.

Cheers,

Quilly


An individual reply goes into my spam filter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:16:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar wrote:

> Please will someone else confirm this?

Q, I work in the software business and I know whereof I speak. (That is
a bit of a joke). I am telling you with absolute certainty that the
problem is not at my end.

Gregory posted a picture of the error message. Did you not see his
post? I am receiving the same message.

--
Peter
May 3, 2005 2:21:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 3 May 2005 08:02:57 +0000 (UTC), "Quilljar"
<wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> brought the following to our
attention:

>>
>> Hey, Quilly, do you have to somehow allow non-members of Webshots to
>> see these pictures? I am getting a Webshots error stating that I am
>> not the owner of these pictures.
>
>
>I am sorry Peter, but I understand that Webshots are always publicly
>available. I have just tested the photos again myself with perfect success,
>although the link YOU gave did not work. Try my links once more.
>
>Anyone else have a problem? If so I will try and fix it.
>

yep.. here is what appears in the browser..

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/flightsim/webshots.gif (4k)


-G
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 2:23:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar wrote:

> Please will someone else confirm this?

Another idea: I see a reference to EditPhoto in your original link.
Perhaps you mistakenly posted a link that permits the owner to edit the
photo, rather than a link that permits the rest of the world to browse
the photos? Just a thought.

--
Peter
May 3, 2005 2:35:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 3 May 2005 07:59:12 +0000 (UTC), "Quilljar"
<wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> brought the following to our
attention:

>
>But Dally, no-one would use TAS alone? You must always take wind speed and
>direction in to account. The only thing that matters is ground speed as you
>pointed out earlier, but you cannot calculaate that unless you have the True
>Airspeed first.

how about thinking of it like so.. The Indicated airspeed can be
measured with your pressure tube and gauge. Then TAS (true airspeed)
can be determined if OAT (outside temp) and ALT (barometer) are known.
Now then.. winds aloft (direction and speed) come into the picture to
find ground speed. This is where uncertainty comes in.. knowing
accurately the wind currents. (Note: thinking in the Jet realm here).


See now... how Weather Analyzer would benefit.. showing aloft winds.


plug - request actrive contrials now.. that drift and form clouds!!

>
>As.. said before many times. 'I ain't never been lost while navigating -
> although I was uncertain of my position for three days once.!'
>

I used to be uncertain of my position everyday for years!! ;]


-Gregory
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 3:35:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar wrote:

> Try this to see my prized Nav calculator I hope it is worth it!

There it is! Very nice.

What a piece of aviation history. I hope you still have it.

--
Peter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 7:47:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Peter,
My Webshots albums are 'public' and have been since Oct last year. They are
accessible, as over 1000 of my photos have been downloaded by people. I get
a count total each week.
Maybe the last ones took a while to be uploaded. All I can say is try again.

Please will someone else confirm this?

Have you some firewall or cookies that are obstructing your access?

Cheers,

Quilly











An individual reply goes into my spam filter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:07:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:kwDde.4778$GQ5.1494@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Dudley Henriques"
>> Then you use the ground speed to
>> determine your arrival time at the next point or destination.
>
> It would seem that TAS's highest and best use is to calculate ground
> speed.
>
> Why not just consider it just a part of the calculations of the formula on
> the way to the calculation of ground speed?
>
> In other words, I don't see why it's "a thing", it's really just "part of
> a
> thing". Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only two speeds of importance in
> aviation are IAS and ground speed. Why don't we talk in terms of just
> those
> 2 values.
>
> Why on earth is it an entry on the flight plan. - Why wouldn't the FAA
> want
> you to take winds aloft into consideration and make you calculate and
> enter
> your ground speed, a far more useful number for both of us?
>
> Dallas

Well, for one thing, ground speed is an unknown at the time the flight plan
is executed. You do have an estimated ground speed if you have done your
preflight planning properly, but it's just an estimate.
ACTUAL ground speed is determined as a data point that is constantly being
updated in real time during a flight and can not be accurately stated on a
flight plan and simply used as stated without correction later on during the
flight. In other words, you really have no way of knowing EXACTLY what the
effect of wind will be on your flight until you actually place the airplane
in flight.
A flight plan is nothing more than an estimate of performance based on
available information at the time the flight plan is made up. Any flight
plan assumes amendments to it will be made as NEW information is obtained
during the progression of the flight.
Determining your TAS is a necessary step in obtaining that first estimated
ground speed. Without TAS being a known factor (or estimated factor) an
estimate of ground speed would be impossible.
In other words, TAS is a "tool" to use in determining expected performance.
Knowing TAS makes your flight plan PREDICTABLE!!!
Dudley
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:13:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

This thread (although quite interesting) is making me think that our
Dally/Varmit is what one might call a 'benign troll'...It is usually he who
starts the ball rolling on subjects, often with his tongue firmly in one
cheek:-)

Come clean Dally, this IS your hobby isn't it? Benign trolling?

Cheers,

Quilly











An individual reply goes into my spam filter
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:14:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1mFde.3577$D91.766@fed1read01...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
> news:ymDde.2905$pe3.1903@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> Hi Jay;
>> Arizona has to be one of the best places we visited on our way out West.
>> We ended up in Flagstaff, then took the back roads through the mountain
>> pass and on up to Yellowstone. We didn't get to see Sedona. Everybody
>> said it was beautiful there.....but Flagstaff was the most beautiful
>> place on the whole trip!! :-)
>> Glad you could use the article.
>> Dudley
>>
>
> Glad you enjoyed our variety of scenery.
>
> I'm sorry you never had the chance to experience Sedona from the
> air...truly amazing. I could fly there every week and probably never get
> bored with it.
>
> Jay

The biggest surprise we had on our trip was when we arrived at Meteor
Crater. I always thought it was some kind of National Park. We tried to use
our Eagle passes to get in and they kind of laughed at us in a friendly
fashion. We were very surprised to find out that the Crater is actually
privately owned land, and that the Indians working the site were on salary
as normal employees!! :-))
Dudley
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 9:54:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

>
> Another idea: I see a reference to EditPhoto in your original link.
> Perhaps you mistakenly posted a link that permits the owner to edit
> the photo, rather than a link that permits the rest of the world to
> browse the photos? Just a thought.

and a very good one too. You are so right. I was in such a hurry to get the
URL out thast I did not log onto the public site...ah me what an idiot I am!
Try this to see my prized Nav calculator I hope it is worth it!

http://client.webshots.com/album/204003612QQUuDJ/1
--
Cheers,

Quilly











An individual reply goes into my spam filter
May 4, 2005 12:26:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 02 May 2005 19:34:44 GMT, "Dallas"
<Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> brought the following to our
attention:

>
>"Gregory"
>> Will do a spreadsheet on this one..
>
>Yea! A spreadsheet! :-)
>
>
>Dallas
>

maybe PowerPoint viewgraphs would be better?!!
!