Why does ATC ask this?

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

....And do they ask this in real life?

I'll be flying and they'll tell me there's traffic at four or five or
six or seven or eight o'clock, report them in sight.

How can you see something behind you? Airplanes don't have rear-view
mirrors.



John

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Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

John: Yeah I kave had them do this in real life: However when there is
traffic reported in my 6 o'clock is will always be faster moving. I really
dont recall ATC ever asking to report in sight, but I do remember ATC not
just advising me of the traffice but also advising me that the 6o'clock
traffic has ME in sight.

Make sense:


Denis Winters

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:59:12 GMT, The Lindbergh Baby wrote:

> I'll be flying and they'll tell me there's traffic at four or five or
> six or seven or eight o'clock, report them in sight.

It's even more fun when the other traffic is a few thousand feet under you.

Picture this if you will:

Your 737 is at 17.000 feet climbing for FL290, ATC comes on and informs you
of a Lear at 14.000 feet at your 2 o'clock position.
By the time ATC is finished informing you the Lear is nowhere in sight.
You use spot plane view to find the Lear and that's when you notice that
the Lear was not only climbing, but he's flying in the exact opposite
direction you're flying.
This of course means that you're out of eachother's range in a matter of a
few seconds.

But the ATC dialogue box with the "report traffic in sight" and "report
traffic not in sight" still remains.
So of course you cheat and report the traffic in sight.

Now I'd like to know how often that sort of things happens IRL since near
misses happen quite often.

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the
earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. - Leonardo da Vinci)

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"The Lindbergh Baby" <johngrabowski1@die.spammersearthlink.net> wrote in
message news:42824EAE.9090908@die.spammersearthlink.net...

<snip>

>> BTW, it is realistic to receive traffic calls when IMC (in the clouds).
>> ATC most likely does not know the conditions around your aircraft. In
>> these cases, pilots will answer "negative traffic, we are IMC."
>
> How does the pilot know? Maybe there are two planes in the cloud?
> John


Negative means "I do not see the traffic", not that there is not any around.
He has no way of knowing if it is there or not, since he is IMC. IMC tells
the ATC controller why he does not see any aircraft. And also lets them know
that if there are other aircraft around, they also will most likely be
"blind".

Paul




>
>
>
> John
>
> --
> To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address
>
>
> Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On 11 May 2005 13:06:57 -0700, "pr" <proffice@twcny.rr.com> brought
the following to our attention:

>John wrote:
>
>> How does the pilot know? Maybe there are two planes in the cloud
>
>As Paul pointed out, "negative traffic" is one of only two "correct"
>responses to ATC's traffic call (here in the US). "Negative traffic"
>means "I do not see the called traffic." The other response would be,
>"Traffic in sight," which obviously means "I see the called traffic."
>
>
>The other common responses, although not technically correct, such as
>"No joy," "Tally ho" (which have their roots in military aviation), or
>"Traffic not in sight" are accepted by ATC.
>
>Adding "currently IMC" or some such phrase to a "negative traffic"
>informs the controller why a pilot cannot see traffic and prevents the
>controller from continually calling the other traffic's position.
>
>Responses such as "I've got them on the fish finder" (meaning that the
>other aircraft is appearing on the TCAS) mean absolutely nothing to
>ATC. This is because ATC, when calling traffic, is looking to either
>relinquish their separation responsibility with the pilot admitting
>visual contact or maintaining their separation responsibility with the
>pilot admitting that traffic is not in sight. There are no official
>procedures in the US for a controller turning over traffic separation
>to a TCAS unit, unless of course the unit detects a possible mid-air
>and issues a resolution advisory (RA). In this case, a pilot will
>inform the controller that he is responding to an RA (which, most
>likely mean severe deviations of altitude and/or heading). At that
>point, ATC is not responsible for separation of that aircraft until the
>pilot has completed the response to the RA and is back on course.
>
>One time last year while returning home IFR, I received a call from ATC
>informing me of VFR traffic 500 feet below me, going to cross left to
>right in front of me.
>
>I was just above a thick layer and 500 feet below me was the layer.
>One of two explanations: There was no way this aircraft was visual or
>his mode C transponder was way off. Scary...


always interesting to hear about the `actuals..'


-G

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

John,
I fly VFR into and out of Class C airspace all the time. Technically ATC
is not "required" to give VFR flights traffic alerts or traffic sequencing,
but in real life they do that as much as possible. When I receive a traffic
alert, I ALWAYS reply that I am looking for the traffic. As a matter of
fact, if I DON'T reply, then ATC will most likely call me again anyway,
until I do reply. I make sure that I call ATC when I have the traffic in
sight. Sometimes though, I just can't see the traffic no matter how hard I
look, especially if it is below me and lost in the ground clutter. On those
occasions I especially make a point to call ATC and let them know that I
don't have the traffic in sight. This lets ATC and the other pilot know that
I have no idea where they are, and that they may have to vector the traffic
around or away from me. It's a little embarassing for me to have to admit
that I can't pick out the aircraft, but I would much rather be a little
embarassed than risk a collision. ATC will also call to inform me of traffic
at my 6-o'clock and give me the traffics altitude and direction of flight.
Even though I may not be able to see it, I will at least know that it is
there, and eventually it will move into an area that I will be able to see.
"Situational awareness" is very, very important and ATC as well as all
pilots do everything that they can to make sure that everyone is aware of
where traffic is located.

Randy L.

"The Lindbergh Baby" <johngrabowski1@die.spammersearthlink.net> wrote in
message news:428158E3.60708@die.spammersearthlink.net...
> ...And do they ask this in real life?
>
> I'll be flying and they'll tell me there's traffic at four or five or six
> or seven or eight o'clock, report them in sight.
>
> How can you see something behind you? Airplanes don't have rear-view
> mirrors.
>
>
>
> John
>
> --
> To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address
>
>
> Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"RandyL" <rlink"nospam"@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:1185he0qlfo7rad@corp.supernews.com...
> John,
> I fly VFR into and out of Class C airspace all the time. Technically
> ATC is not "required" to give VFR flights traffic alerts or traffic
> sequencing, but in real life they do that as much as possible. When I
> receive a traffic alert, I ALWAYS reply that I am looking for the traffic.
> As a matter of fact, if I DON'T reply, then ATC will most likely call me
> again anyway, until I do reply. I make sure that I call ATC when I have
> the traffic in sight. Sometimes though, I just can't see the traffic no
> matter how hard I look, especially if it is below me and lost in the
> ground clutter. On those occasions I especially make a point to call ATC
> and let them know that I don't have the traffic in sight. This lets ATC
> and the other pilot know that I have no idea where they are, and that they
> may have to vector the traffic around or away from me. It's a little
> embarassing for me to have to admit that I can't pick out the aircraft,
> but I would much rather be a little embarassed than risk a collision. ATC
> will also call to inform me of traffic at my 6-o'clock and give me the
> traffics altitude and direction of flight. Even though I may not be able
> to see it, I will at least know that it is there, and eventually it will
> move into an area that I will be able to see. "Situational awareness" is
> very, very important and ATC as well as all pilots do everything that they
> can to make sure that everyone is aware of where traffic is located.
>
> Randy L.
>

If you've got divergent traffic moving from your 3 or 9 o'clock to your 6
.... then I'd expect ATC to inform you that traffic is no longer a factor.

I too have been overtaken from behind by both higher and lower traffic and
it can get a little un-nerving at times. It is a very cool sight to see a
Cessna Citation fly right out from under your spinner (but lower of course).

It is not so cool to be informed that you have traffic at your high six,
same heading and that the radar plot has become more or less, merged. We
yanked and banked that 172SP all over the place to try and see above and
behind us and to try and make ourselves more visible. My buddy even racked
his seat all the way back and fully reclined it trying to look up through
the rear windows.

Still couldn't see the other guy, but it did make for an interesting
immediate change in weight and balance (eeek!). We finally just told ABQ
Center that we were going to turn 20 to the right to get some separation.
Eventually we showed up as two radar plots and went merrily on our way. We
were both VFR so it was still "see and avoid" even though Center knew we had
close company.

Coming back from Tucson to Phoenix one time, Tucson departure called traffic
at my 8 o'clock, co-alt and that he would pass behind me. Well, I kept
watching him, and watching and watching... He stayed in the same relative
spot off my left and kept getting steadily bigger and bigger... Finally, I
pulled a couple of hundred RPM off the throttle and watched him wave as he
passed well in front of me. He should have passed behind me as he was to my
left (and me to his right...) but I think we would have occupied the same
spot in the sky had I not slowed.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
Chandler, AZ

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

RandyL wrote:

> It's a little embarassing for me to have to admit
> that I can't pick out the aircraft, but I would much rather be a
little
> embarassed than risk a collision.

Don't be embarrassed. Traffic spotting is not as easy as some believe
it to be. I, too, often miss spotting traffic, despite multiple ATC
updates on its position. My pride is not greater than my concern for
safety, so I proudly admit to ATC that I cannot see the aircraft.

To spot traffic effectively (in the event you were unaware), consider
this:

Get yourself a plastic 12-oz soda bottle so prevalent in the US today.
After drinking the contents, cut a 1 1/2 inch diameter circle out of
the bottom center of the bottle, then hold the bottle sideways and
level with the horizon. Peer through the spout of the bottle and out
through the hole you cut. What you see out through this hole is the
entire height above and below the horizon you need to scan when looking
for traffic within 1000 feet of your altitude, the traffic that pose
the risk of a collision . That's it. (I learned this trick at an AOPA
safety seminar)

Far too many pilots look way too high above and way too low below the
horizon for traffic.

Additionally, an aircraft at your altitude and more than a few miles
off will actually appear higher in the horizon, so look a bit above the
horizon, not at it.

And finally, don't sweep with your eyes, as the movement of your eyes
doesn't give them time to focus, Instead, move them about 10 degrees,
then hold that position for a few seconds to focus before moving them
another 10 degrees.

Remember that an aircraft on a collision course with yours will have
*no* relative movement, which makes it even harder to spot. Hence the
importance of giving your eyes time to focus.

If you knew all of this, then disregard. Fly safe,

--
Peter

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

James,
The rules for ATC in controlled airspace is that in Class B & C
airspace, which is under radar control, it is mandatory for ATC to give IFR
flights traffic alerts, and traffic sequencing. However, it is not mandatory
for ATC to give VFR flights this information in Class B & C airspace. This
doesn't mean that they won't do it, it just means that they are not legally
required to. The reality is though, that ATC helps out VFR traffic as much
as they can, workload permitting. But the bottom line is that a VFR pilot is
ultimately responsible for making sure that they avoid collision in
controlled airspace (well---ANY airspace!)

Randy L.

"James Hodson" <jUNDERSCOREhodson@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:iml6819fv470v2n05j1vaud6gi6lvurdci@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:56:05 -0600, "RandyL"
>
> IRL: Surely it is part of ATC's job - the major part, IMO - to keep
> aircraft apart?
>
> James

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

RandyL wrote:
> John,
> ATC will also call to inform me of traffic
> at my 6-o'clock and give me the traffics altitude and direction of flight.
> Even though I may not be able to see it, I will at least know that it is
> there, and eventually it will move into an area that I will be able to see.
> "Situational awareness" is very, very important and ATC as well as all
> pilots do everything that they can to make sure that everyone is aware of
> where traffic is located.

I understand all that; I was just wondering why the game asks you if you
"see" traffic at 6 o'clock when you can't possibly.



J

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Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Thu, 12 May 2005 17:19:41 -0600, "RandyL"
<rlink"nospam"@cableone.net> wrote:

> The rules for ATC in controlled airspace is that in Class B & C
>airspace, which is under radar control, it is mandatory for ATC to give IFR
>flights traffic alerts, and traffic sequencing. However, it is not mandatory
>for ATC to give VFR flights this information in Class B & C airspace. This
>doesn't mean that they won't do it, it just means that they are not legally
>required to. The reality is though, that ATC helps out VFR traffic as much
>as they can, workload permitting. But the bottom line is that a VFR pilot is
>ultimately responsible for making sure that they avoid collision in
>controlled airspace (well---ANY airspace!)

Hi Randy

Many thanks for that.

I must admit that I do get rather confused when it comes to the
various classes of airspace. Although MSFS ATC does ask if I wish to
enter a certain type ... well ... I do forget exactly to what I'm
agreeing or disagreeing. Unless I hit P, do an appropriate web search
and then re-commence the sim I'm stuck. :-/

FWIW, even in UK airspace, I tend to fly by FAA rules simply because
there is more information "out there" gleaned from the USA.

No doubt I'm partly wrong but your own post (well, at least its time
sig of GMT -6hrs) does go towards inforcing my impression.

Cheers
James