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Crazy ILS approach in A/P APP mode

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Anonymous
May 15, 2005 12:06:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi,

I've been practicing this for days (FS9),
but I still experience things I can't understand.

Take a look at my screen-shot 1:
http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_01.jpg

The A/P is in APP mode and has already set my B-737
heading straight at the runway (course 256).

I'm keeping the ALT button ON, maintaining 3800,
just as the tower told me.
I'm slowly coming into ILS path (from below).
IAS button is ON too, taking care of the speed.
(When should I turn the IAS button OFF - is an unaswered question).

Things seems perfect. (Do they really?).

A few moments later - screen-shot 2:
http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_02.jpg

As you can see - I'm exactly in the middle of ILS path
(vertically and horizontally). Perfect it seems (for a moment).

This is the moment when I turn OFF the A/P's ALT button.
(I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I do what I imagine I should).

Now I expect the APP mode and ILS to lead me down slowly,
along the approach path.

But... just a few seconds later - screen-shot 3:
http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_03.jpg

What the....?!? The plane is going up, up, up!
Engines roaring gaining lots of power. WHY?
I have no idea!
Soon I'm far above the path, too late to descend and land.
What did I do?

I believe you can recreate this very situation by loading my
"saved flight" files into your own MsFS9:
http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/LasVegas_ILS_Approach...
(the ZIP includes the screen-shots). I think all you have to do is
to unpack it and copy the .FLT and .WX files to your \Flight Simulator Files
folder (probably inside your "My documents" folder), and then
load it, selecting a flight.

Perhaps then - someone will be able to tell me how to do well,
what I did wrong?

I still have many questions about ILS and A/P's APP mode.
Sometimes it behaves different than usual and makes me confused.

Sometimes (in APP mode) a joystick is totally blocked,
but sometimes I can direct the nose up or down freely
(both situations with the ALT button OFF).

Should I use APP mode with IAS hold button ON or OFF?
Does the APP mode itself use the A/T (when IAS button is OFF)?

Is there any way to make the APP mode *only* direct the plane
into the r-wy horizontally, and leave all vertical and speed
business to the pilot? I think I can keep vertical path better myself,
just watching the little pink triangles and trying to keep them leveled.

Ehh... this is all so hard to manage. Please help!

Thanks,

latet
May 15, 2005 1:27:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

latet wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've been practicing this for days (FS9),
> but I still experience things I can't understand.
>
> Take a look at my screen-shot 1:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_01.jpg
>
> The A/P is in APP mode and has already set my B-737
> heading straight at the runway (course 256).
>
> I'm keeping the ALT button ON, maintaining 3800,
> just as the tower told me.
> I'm slowly coming into ILS path (from below).
> IAS button is ON too, taking care of the speed.
> (When should I turn the IAS button OFF - is an unaswered question).
>
> Things seems perfect. (Do they really?).
>
> A few moments later - screen-shot 2:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_02.jpg
>
> As you can see - I'm exactly in the middle of ILS path
> (vertically and horizontally). Perfect it seems (for a moment).
>
> This is the moment when I turn OFF the A/P's ALT button.
> (I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I do what I imagine I
> should).
> Now I expect the APP mode and ILS to lead me down slowly,
> along the approach path.
>
> But... just a few seconds later - screen-shot 3:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_03.jpg
>
> What the....?!? The plane is going up, up, up!
> Engines roaring gaining lots of power. WHY?
> I have no idea!
> Soon I'm far above the path, too late to descend and land.
> What did I do?
>
> I believe you can recreate this very situation by loading my
> "saved flight" files into your own MsFS9:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/LasVegas_ILS_Approach...
> (the ZIP includes the screen-shots). I think all you have to do is
> to unpack it and copy the .FLT and .WX files to your \Flight
> Simulator Files folder (probably inside your "My documents" folder),
> and then load it, selecting a flight.
>
> Perhaps then - someone will be able to tell me how to do well,
> what I did wrong?
>
> I still have many questions about ILS and A/P's APP mode.
> Sometimes it behaves different than usual and makes me confused.
>
> Sometimes (in APP mode) a joystick is totally blocked,
> but sometimes I can direct the nose up or down freely
> (both situations with the ALT button OFF).
>
> Should I use APP mode with IAS hold button ON or OFF?
> Does the APP mode itself use the A/T (when IAS button is OFF)?
>
> Is there any way to make the APP mode *only* direct the plane
> into the r-wy horizontally, and leave all vertical and speed
> business to the pilot? I think I can keep vertical path better myself,
> just watching the little pink triangles and trying to keep them
> leveled.
> Ehh... this is all so hard to manage. Please help!
>
> Thanks,
>
> latet

Hi,

Not sure of the answers to your questions but have you tried landing using
the flight director and APP mode? I think the autopilot probably tries to
hunt the glideslope a bit too much and you may well find that you can easily
keep the FD cross hairs aligned yourself, and follow the glideslope
"manually".

Tim
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 4:19:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Latet,

Start with switching on the Flight Director. Will give you good guidance
when flying manually and gives you great momitoring possibilities when on
the AP.

Next, do NOT switch off any button on the AP during your approach. So, when
intercepting the glideslope, the ALT HOLD light will switch off
automatically!

As I am no 737 driver I can only guess your final speed is a whee bit high.
Anybody with realistic final speeds? With FS9 you can reduce your speed on
finals by flipping the speed set on the AP down. Usually I take an average
speed of 140kts on finals, bleeding down to approx 130 on touchdown.

Does this help for now? Have fun practising!

Loek


"latet" <latet@latet.pl> schreef in bericht
news:D 65enj$ic8$1@host102-ursus.spray.net.pl...
> Hi,
>
> I've been practicing this for days (FS9),
> but I still experience things I can't understand.
>
> Take a look at my screen-shot 1:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_01.jpg
>
> The A/P is in APP mode and has already set my B-737
> heading straight at the runway (course 256).
>
> I'm keeping the ALT button ON, maintaining 3800,
> just as the tower told me.
> I'm slowly coming into ILS path (from below).
> IAS button is ON too, taking care of the speed.
> (When should I turn the IAS button OFF - is an unaswered question).
>
> Things seems perfect. (Do they really?).
>
> A few moments later - screen-shot 2:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_02.jpg
>
> As you can see - I'm exactly in the middle of ILS path
> (vertically and horizontally). Perfect it seems (for a moment).
>
> This is the moment when I turn OFF the A/P's ALT button.
> (I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I do what I imagine I should).
>
> Now I expect the APP mode and ILS to lead me down slowly,
> along the approach path.
>
> But... just a few seconds later - screen-shot 3:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_03.jpg
>
> What the....?!? The plane is going up, up, up!
> Engines roaring gaining lots of power. WHY?
> I have no idea!
> Soon I'm far above the path, too late to descend and land.
> What did I do?
>
> I believe you can recreate this very situation by loading my
> "saved flight" files into your own MsFS9:
> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/LasVegas_ILS_Approach...
> (the ZIP includes the screen-shots). I think all you have to do is
> to unpack it and copy the .FLT and .WX files to your \Flight Simulator
> Files
> folder (probably inside your "My documents" folder), and then
> load it, selecting a flight.
>
> Perhaps then - someone will be able to tell me how to do well,
> what I did wrong?
>
> I still have many questions about ILS and A/P's APP mode.
> Sometimes it behaves different than usual and makes me confused.
>
> Sometimes (in APP mode) a joystick is totally blocked,
> but sometimes I can direct the nose up or down freely
> (both situations with the ALT button OFF).
>
> Should I use APP mode with IAS hold button ON or OFF?
> Does the APP mode itself use the A/T (when IAS button is OFF)?
>
> Is there any way to make the APP mode *only* direct the plane
> into the r-wy horizontally, and leave all vertical and speed
> business to the pilot? I think I can keep vertical path better myself,
> just watching the little pink triangles and trying to keep them leveled.
>
> Ehh... this is all so hard to manage. Please help!
>
> Thanks,
>
> latet
>
May 15, 2005 4:19:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

You're right on the money, Loek : )

Arthur

"L. Mulder" <lbn.mulder@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:D 65ti9$16a$04$1@news.t-online.com...
> Hi Latet,
>
> Start with switching on the Flight Director. Will give you good guidance
> when flying manually and gives you great momitoring possibilities when on
> the AP.
>
> Next, do NOT switch off any button on the AP during your approach. So,
> when intercepting the glideslope, the ALT HOLD light will switch off
> automatically!
>
> As I am no 737 driver I can only guess your final speed is a whee bit
> high. Anybody with realistic final speeds? With FS9 you can reduce your
> speed on finals by flipping the speed set on the AP down. Usually I take
> an average speed of 140kts on finals, bleeding down to approx 130 on
> touchdown.
>
> Does this help for now? Have fun practising!
>
> Loek
>
>
> "latet" <latet@latet.pl> schreef in bericht
> news:D 65enj$ic8$1@host102-ursus.spray.net.pl...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've been practicing this for days (FS9),
>> but I still experience things I can't understand.
>>
>> Take a look at my screen-shot 1:
>> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_01.jpg
>>
>> The A/P is in APP mode and has already set my B-737
>> heading straight at the runway (course 256).
>>
>> I'm keeping the ALT button ON, maintaining 3800,
>> just as the tower told me.
>> I'm slowly coming into ILS path (from below).
>> IAS button is ON too, taking care of the speed.
>> (When should I turn the IAS button OFF - is an unaswered question).
>>
>> Things seems perfect. (Do they really?).
>>
>> A few moments later - screen-shot 2:
>> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_02.jpg
>>
>> As you can see - I'm exactly in the middle of ILS path
>> (vertically and horizontally). Perfect it seems (for a moment).
>>
>> This is the moment when I turn OFF the A/P's ALT button.
>> (I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I do what I imagine I should).
>>
>> Now I expect the APP mode and ILS to lead me down slowly,
>> along the approach path.
>>
>> But... just a few seconds later - screen-shot 3:
>> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/ILS_03.jpg
>>
>> What the....?!? The plane is going up, up, up!
>> Engines roaring gaining lots of power. WHY?
>> I have no idea!
>> Soon I'm far above the path, too late to descend and land.
>> What did I do?
>>
>> I believe you can recreate this very situation by loading my
>> "saved flight" files into your own MsFS9:
>> http://www.xyz.jabluszko.net/msfs/LasVegas_ILS_Approach...
>> (the ZIP includes the screen-shots). I think all you have to do is
>> to unpack it and copy the .FLT and .WX files to your \Flight Simulator
>> Files
>> folder (probably inside your "My documents" folder), and then
>> load it, selecting a flight.
>>
>> Perhaps then - someone will be able to tell me how to do well,
>> what I did wrong?
>>
>> I still have many questions about ILS and A/P's APP mode.
>> Sometimes it behaves different than usual and makes me confused.
>>
>> Sometimes (in APP mode) a joystick is totally blocked,
>> but sometimes I can direct the nose up or down freely
>> (both situations with the ALT button OFF).
>>
>> Should I use APP mode with IAS hold button ON or OFF?
>> Does the APP mode itself use the A/T (when IAS button is OFF)?
>>
>> Is there any way to make the APP mode *only* direct the plane
>> into the r-wy horizontally, and leave all vertical and speed
>> business to the pilot? I think I can keep vertical path better myself,
>> just watching the little pink triangles and trying to keep them leveled.
>>
>> Ehh... this is all so hard to manage. Please help!
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> latet
>>
>
>
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 5:35:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Start with switching on the Flight Director. Will give you good guidance
> when flying manually and gives you great momitoring possibilities when on
> the AP.
> Next, do NOT switch off any button on the AP during your approach. So,
> when intercepting the glideslope, the ALT HOLD light will switch off
> automatically!

Thanks,

I've been practicing this all day, and finally making some progress :-)

Now I see how important it is NOT to switch off the ALT Hold button
manually.
Everything goes much smoother when I just wait and let the AP/APP
switch it off automatically.

I have also learned that virtually I don't need to swich off the IAS Hold
almost to the touch-down. If I set the resonable speed (~135) I can
even land with IAS hold still ON (I don't think this is the right way to
make
a master landing, but it is safe enough not to crash).

I'm practicing more. Now trying to find the best moment to switch off
the APP Hold button. I watch the HSI display and if it seems like
flying nicely along the path - I tend to keep the APP mode on as long
as possible. I wonder how long real pilots in real B-737's keep it on?

The other thing is to find the best time to turn the APP on
(I mean earlier in the approach). But this is much higher above
the ground thus much less dangerous play ;-)

I have not star to use FD yet. How can it give me more help
than the HSI display? Well, ok, I don't know how the FD works.
Does it only display some information for the human pilot
or is it another device that A/P relies on?

Thank you guys,

latet
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 5:47:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Thank you David, very practical info.

One more question: what about the Y/D Hold switch during
approach and landing? I don't feel any difference when it's On or Off,
but I haven't try real cross-wind landings.

How smart is Y/D Hold anyway? Does it work similar to "auto-rudder"
function in MsFS?
(On small airplanes I can never make a good cross-wind landing with
"auto-rudder" on).

Greetings,

latet
May 15, 2005 5:47:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

The Y/D button is a "yaw damper". Yaw = horizontal movement of the tail.
Damper = suppressor

It electronically keeps the tail from moving from side to side due to wing
gusts, etc. and I usually turn it off when on short final approach so I can
use the rudder function. If I keep the Y/D engaged, the rudder doesn't work
(on my Boeings).

Arthur

"latet" <latet@latet.pl> wrote in message
news:D 662n1$k1u$1@host102-ursus.spray.net.pl...
> Thank you David, very practical info.
>
> One more question: what about the Y/D Hold switch during
> approach and landing? I don't feel any difference when it's On or Off,
> but I haven't try real cross-wind landings.
>
> How smart is Y/D Hold anyway? Does it work similar to "auto-rudder"
> function in MsFS?
> (On small airplanes I can never make a good cross-wind landing with
> "auto-rudder" on).
>
> Greetings,
>
> latet
>
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 6:00:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> : This is the moment when I turn OFF the A/P's ALT button.
> Shouldn't have - the APP section of the computer will turn off the ALT
> when the G/S is locked

Should it be kind of the same with HDG button?

On the last approach I decided to click the APP on quite early.
The HDG hold button was still ON, heading the direction
given by the ATC (that direction made about 30 degrees angle
with the ILS path). I turned APP on and became slightly confused
by the fact that HDG button didn't go off at the same moment.
Does it mean that the APP program liked the heading and
considered it the best way to the path?

I don't remember if I turned it (HDG) manually off eventually,
or the APP did it for me. The landing was good anyway :-)

So, once again:
When is the best time for turning the APP button ON,
and (if the moment is early) - what about the HDG hold?

Thanks,

latet
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 7:41:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

If you have HDG on and turn on NAV or APP, HDG will continue to stay on
until the AP intercepts the desired NAV radial or ILS. At that point, NAV
will go off and the AP will track the selected NAV radial/ILS.



"latet" <latet@latet.pl> wrote in message
news:D 67dl0$r5v$1@host102-ursus.spray.net.pl...
> > : This is the moment when I turn OFF the A/P's ALT button.
> > Shouldn't have - the APP section of the computer will turn off the ALT
> > when the G/S is locked
>
> Should it be kind of the same with HDG button?
>
> On the last approach I decided to click the APP on quite early.
> The HDG hold button was still ON, heading the direction
> given by the ATC (that direction made about 30 degrees angle
> with the ILS path). I turned APP on and became slightly confused
> by the fact that HDG button didn't go off at the same moment.
> Does it mean that the APP program liked the heading and
> considered it the best way to the path?
>
> I don't remember if I turned it (HDG) manually off eventually,
> or the APP did it for me. The landing was good anyway :-)
>
> So, once again:
> When is the best time for turning the APP button ON,
> and (if the moment is early) - what about the HDG hold?
>
> Thanks,
>
> latet
>
>
>
!