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Stick versus Yoke controlled planes

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Anonymous
May 14, 2005 4:01:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi,

Soon after I started using fs9, and discovering my preference for
small GA prop planes, I purchased a CH yoke and rudder pedal set to
compliment the joystick I originally had (now I have two joysticks; a
wireless and a wired force feedback, which I now prefer). The yoke
certainly did give me (and still does) a feeling of greater simulated
quasi-reality when flying the planes that would normally use such a
controller in real life. I love flying my several Cessna and Piper
planes using the yoke, and if these planes are not normally outfitted
with a stick in the real world, I would not consider using my joysick
when I fly them in the sim.

However, after now experiencing both stick and yoke controls on a
variety of aircraft, I must say that both conceptually and
physically, I'm developing a pretty strong preference for stick
controlled aircraft! Conceptually, since a plane operates in 3D
space, the physical movement of a stick seems more "natural" to me,
and this conceptual naturalness translates well to the physical
feeling I have when using the joystick. Since I do also have
rudder/brake pedals, I use the two in combination, and have disabled
the "rudder twist" option on my joystick.

My preference for stick control, and my love of the stick controlled
planes I have (all my RealAir planes specifically), I've been finding
that I'm spending much more time flying these stick controlled planes
at the expense of my yoke controlled planes, even though I still
enjoy very much flying those planes. I suppose, if I were truly
trying to simulate reality, this tendency would not be much of a
stretch, as I'm pretty sure that even if I were ridiculously wealthy,
I'd only be owning one plane (or maybe two), but certainly not ten or
more! :-)

I would be interested to read the opinions of both simulated and/or
real world pilots here; especially if you have a distinct preference
for one type of controller over another, and if this influences
greatly your preference for particular models of aircraft over
others.

Thanks!

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.freewebs.com/kuviahunnihautik/

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Anonymous
May 15, 2005 12:28:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Mel;

I always preferred a center stick in real life. It puts you right down the
axis of the fuselage. Especially in low altitude aerobatics, you "point" the
airplane where you want it to go and top rudder is actually top rudder and
bottom rudder is actually bottom rudder. It's a solid feeling of control.
You get used to whatever you're using after a while.
The strangest feeling I ever had flying an airplane was in a Luscombe 8A. It
had side by side seating and a stick. Flying from the left seat and being
right handed with a stick took a bit of getting used to, but even that
became somewhat familiar after about 15 minutes. Of course from the right
seat it would have felt better :-)
Dudley


"Lawn Dart" <willkayakforfoodREMOVE_THIS@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:p e0sce8g29ad.dlg@uni-berlin.de...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Hi,
>
> Soon after I started using fs9, and discovering my preference for
> small GA prop planes, I purchased a CH yoke and rudder pedal set to
> compliment the joystick I originally had (now I have two joysticks; a
> wireless and a wired force feedback, which I now prefer). The yoke
> certainly did give me (and still does) a feeling of greater simulated
> quasi-reality when flying the planes that would normally use such a
> controller in real life. I love flying my several Cessna and Piper
> planes using the yoke, and if these planes are not normally outfitted
> with a stick in the real world, I would not consider using my joysick
> when I fly them in the sim.
>
> However, after now experiencing both stick and yoke controls on a
> variety of aircraft, I must say that both conceptually and
> physically, I'm developing a pretty strong preference for stick
> controlled aircraft! Conceptually, since a plane operates in 3D
> space, the physical movement of a stick seems more "natural" to me,
> and this conceptual naturalness translates well to the physical
> feeling I have when using the joystick. Since I do also have
> rudder/brake pedals, I use the two in combination, and have disabled
> the "rudder twist" option on my joystick.
>
> My preference for stick control, and my love of the stick controlled
> planes I have (all my RealAir planes specifically), I've been finding
> that I'm spending much more time flying these stick controlled planes
> at the expense of my yoke controlled planes, even though I still
> enjoy very much flying those planes. I suppose, if I were truly
> trying to simulate reality, this tendency would not be much of a
> stretch, as I'm pretty sure that even if I were ridiculously wealthy,
> I'd only be owning one plane (or maybe two), but certainly not ten or
> more! :-)
>
> I would be interested to read the opinions of both simulated and/or
> real world pilots here; especially if you have a distinct preference
> for one type of controller over another, and if this influences
> greatly your preference for particular models of aircraft over
> others.
>
> Thanks!
>
> - --
> Melissa
>
> PGP Public Keys: http://www.freewebs.com/kuviahunnihautik/
>
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May 15, 2005 1:11:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Lawn Dart"
> I would be interested to read the opinions of both simulated and/or
> real world pilots here;

I recall you mentioning that before and almost made a comment. Personally,
my mind does not perceive a difference between the two and I have no
preference. I have a good joystick that only requires me to switch plugs to
use, but I never think about it and continue to use the yoke.

I've flown both in real life and I don't really think about it. The last
plane I flew was a Grumman Tiger and I really can remember if it was a stick
or yoke. :-)

Dallas
Related resources
May 15, 2005 1:14:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas"
> I really *can't* remember if it was a stick
> or yoke. :-)

Dallas
May 15, 2005 2:03:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> I always preferred a center stick in real life. It puts you right down the
> axis of the fuselage. Especially in low altitude aerobatics, you "point"
the
> airplane where you want it to go and top rudder is actually top rudder and
> bottom rudder is actually bottom rudder. It's a solid feeling of control.
> You get used to whatever you're using after a while.
> The strangest feeling I ever had flying an airplane was in a Luscombe 8A.
It
> had side by side seating and a stick. Flying from the left seat and being
> right handed with a stick took a bit of getting used to, but even that
> became somewhat familiar after about 15 minutes. Of course from the right
> seat it would have felt better :-)
> Dudley

Did you ever get the chance to fly a real Spitfire Dudley? Its only fairly
recently that I realised how a Spitfires stick (control column?) was
constructed and operated its aileron function. I'd have thought it would
make the aircraft more difficult to control, but obviously this was/is not
the case.

http://tinyurl.com/bz4ep
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 2:03:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Colin" <Colin@NONEOFTHATSPAMSTUFFkatana1000.plus.com> wrote in message
news:42866790$0$573$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>> I always preferred a center stick in real life. It puts you right down
>> the
>> axis of the fuselage. Especially in low altitude aerobatics, you "point"
> the
>> airplane where you want it to go and top rudder is actually top rudder
>> and
>> bottom rudder is actually bottom rudder. It's a solid feeling of control.
>> You get used to whatever you're using after a while.
>> The strangest feeling I ever had flying an airplane was in a Luscombe 8A.
> It
>> had side by side seating and a stick. Flying from the left seat and being
>> right handed with a stick took a bit of getting used to, but even that
>> became somewhat familiar after about 15 minutes. Of course from the right
>> seat it would have felt better :-)
>> Dudley
>
> Did you ever get the chance to fly a real Spitfire Dudley? Its only fairly
> recently that I realised how a Spitfires stick (control column?) was
> constructed and operated its aileron function. I'd have thought it would
> make the aircraft more difficult to control, but obviously this was/is not
> the case.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bz4ep

Yes. I flew the Mk 16 Merlin powered Spitfire. The spade did take a bit of
getting used to, but was quite natural for me by the time I had done the run
up. The brakes took a bit longer but once I got used to not having to hold
both pedals down during the runup, they were ok as well.
I think I did utter a few unkind remarks about the designers of the brake
system however, before I reached this point. :-))
DH
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 3:28:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Lawn Dart" <willkayakforfoodREMOVE_THIS@gmx.net>
: Hi,
:
<snip>
: I would be interested to read the opinions of both simulated and/or
: real world pilots here; especially if you have a distinct preference
: for one type of controller over another, and if this influences
: greatly your preference for particular models of aircraft over
: others.
:
: Thanks!
:
: - --
: Melissa

As a mechanic, lemme tellya, a stick beats a yoke any day - especially
if I'm under the panel fixin' your avionics.

Dave
May 16, 2005 9:50:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB"
> If I was flying for the fun of it I flew left seat
> with the stick in my right hand.

That's F-16 style.

> But instructing from the left seat, the throttle is now in my
> right hand and the stick is in my left.

That's Airbus style.


Dallas
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 9:50:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi Dallas,

On Mon, 16 May 2005 05:50:58 GMT, you wrote:

>> If I was flying for the fun of it I flew left seat with the stick
>> in my right hand.
>
> That's F-16 style.
>
>> But instructing from the left seat, the throttle is now in my right
>> hand and the stick is in my left.
>
> That's Airbus style.

What about planes that have the stick located directly in front of the
pilot's seat? My RealAir planes have this arrangement. Even the
SF.260, which has the pilot sitting in the right seat, has two
sticks; one for the right seat, and one for the left, with each stick
centered in front of each seat. And then, there are the Decathlon
and Scout, which are tandem seating planes, with the stick directly
in front of the seat. In these cases, is it customary to use either
hand to deal with the stick depending on whatever else needs to be
dealt with at any given moment?

In any event, both of my joysticks are set up for right hand use (not
very comfortable with the left hand), so it's a bit of a moot point
with respect to my simming. I'm right handed, and holding the
joystick in my right hand feels very natural.

And then there's Dudley's comment, which had me slightly confused, as
I think I'd feel just the opposite:

>>> The strangest feeling I ever had flying an airplane was in a
>>> Luscombe 8A. It had side by side seating and a stick. Flying from
>>> the left seat and being right handed with a stick took a bit of
>>> getting used to, but even that became somewhat familiar after
>>> about 15 minutes. Of course from the right seat it would have
>>> felt better :-)

Dudley...are you referring here to *you* being right handed, and
preferring to hold the stick with your left hand?

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.freewebs.com/kuviahunnihautik/

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May 16, 2005 10:20:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB"
> http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs29&d=05201&f=ultra01.jpg

Hey, I got enthusiastic Friday night and started to fly down to see you in
Kempner in the Challenger II. It was getting thunderstormie so I decided to
head for the airfield at Lake Whitney State Park and put up for the night.
(Must be a nice place, I'm still there.)

The most sophisticated navigation device on the Challenger is the magnetic
compass. I am here to tell you that pure VFR navigation without using GPS
or map view in FS9, even with USA roads, is extremely difficult. Add to
that, my sectional for San Antonio is dated 1993 and there is a lake in FS9
that does not appear in my old sectional. I was pulling my hair out trying
to figure out where I was. I was not lost, but my chart was telling me I
was lost. I'm glad it wasn't real life. :-)


Dallas
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 10:20:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi Dallas,

On Mon, 16 May 2005 06:20:10 GMT, you wrote:

> It was getting thunderstormie

Is that similar to "thunderfloopy"? :-)

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.freewebs.com/kuviahunnihautik/

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May 16, 2005 10:44:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Lawn Dart"
> Is that similar to "thunderfloopy"? :-)

It's exactly like thunderfloopy!


LOL


Dallas
May 16, 2005 12:07:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:

> "boB"
>
>>http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs29&d=05201&f=ultra01.jpg
>
>
> Hey, I got enthusiastic Friday night and started to fly down to see you in
> Kempner in the Challenger II. It was getting thunderstormie so I decided to
> head for the airfield at Lake Whitney State Park and put up for the night.
> (Must be a nice place, I'm still there.)
>
> The most sophisticated navigation device on the Challenger is the magnetic
> compass. I am here to tell you that pure VFR navigation without using GPS
> or map view in FS9, even with USA roads, is extremely difficult. Add to
> that, my sectional for San Antonio is dated 1993 and there is a lake in FS9
> that does not appear in my old sectional. I was pulling my hair out trying
> to figure out where I was. I was not lost, but my chart was telling me I
> was lost. I'm glad it wasn't real life. :-)
>
>
> Dallas
>
>

It's easy to find. I'll put out the smoke pots. There's no traffic on
this road out where we are. Easy landing and take-off. I'll post a
better map. :) 

--

boB,
Master_Caution_70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
May 16, 2005 12:11:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Lawn Dart wrote:

>
>
> What about planes that have the stick located directly in front of the
> pilot's seat? My RealAir planes have this arrangement. Even the
> SF.260, which has the pilot sitting in the right seat, has two
> sticks; one for the right seat, and one for the left, with each stick
> centered in front of each seat. And then, there are the Decathlon
> and Scout, which are tandem seating planes, with the stick directly
> in front of the seat. In these cases, is it customary to use either
> hand to deal with the stick depending on whatever else needs to be
> dealt with at any given moment?


The helicopters I've flown are all centered cyclic (stick) except for
the front seat of a Cobra. That one is F-16 style.




--

boB,
Master_Caution_70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
May 16, 2005 1:04:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:

> "boB"
>
>>http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs29&d=05201&f=ultra01.jpg
>
>
> Hey, I got enthusiastic Friday night and started to fly down to see you in
> Kempner in the Challenger II. It was getting thunderstormie so I decided to
> head for the airfield at Lake Whitney State Park and put up for the night.
> (Must be a nice place, I'm still there.)
>
> The most sophisticated navigation device on the Challenger is the magnetic
> compass. I am here to tell you that pure VFR navigation without using GPS
> or map view in FS9, even with USA roads, is extremely difficult. Add to
> that, my sectional for San Antonio is dated 1993 and there is a lake in FS9
> that does not appear in my old sectional. I was pulling my hair out trying
> to figure out where I was. I was not lost, but my chart was telling me I
> was lost. I'm glad it wasn't real life. :-)
>
>
> Dallas
>
>


Here is the map to my place. The County Road I live on isn't shown.

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs29&d=05201&f=2map01.jpg


Worked on the program Maxivista and was about to log in to their forum
when suddenly it worked. It works fine on my P133 computer with an old
14 inch monitor and I'll probably try to get the P100 laptop to work
next. Until then the 3d monitor is great for the moving map.

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs29&d=05201&f=3mon01.jpg

--

boB,
Master_Caution_70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 5:25:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Lawn Dart" <willkayakforfoodREMOVE_THIS@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:1wxvgx6mozy5c$.dlg@uni-berlin.de...
> And then there's Dudley's comment, which had me slightly confused, as
> I think I'd feel just the opposite:
>
>>>> The strangest feeling I ever had flying an airplane was in a
>>>> Luscombe 8A. It had side by side seating and a stick. Flying from
>>>> the left seat and being right handed with a stick took a bit of
>>>> getting used to, but even that became somewhat familiar after
>>>> about 15 minutes. Of course from the right seat it would have
>>>> felt better :-)
>
> Dudley...are you referring here to *you* being right handed, and
> preferring to hold the stick with your left hand?
>
> - --
> Melissa

I learned to fly in airplanes with center sticks and yokes. being right
handed, the center stick was perfect for me, as the throttle was on my left
side. It felt natural. Conversely, when flying the yokes from the left seat,
I made the transition to a left hand on the yoke and right hand on the
throttle without any issues strangely enough. It didn't feel unnatural at
all. Also, instructing in yoke equipped airplanes from the right seat was
just more natural and easier for me.
What wasn't natural at all for me was a side by side stick arrangement in
the left seat like the Luscombe.
What causes the strange feeling for some pilots is the left/push and
right/pull lateral movement on a vertical stick. After flying a center
stick with the right hand, your mind gets "handed" with a comfort setting.
Your mind takes a bit of time to adjust to the new movement with a different
arm being used. It's a strange sensation for a while, but the mind
compensates and then it's no big deal. Strangely enough, this only seems to
effect sticks and not yokes. The natural rocker movement side to side on a
yoke top seems to be much more natural than a vertical hold on a stick for
some pilots.
In actual flying, one would want to be aware of this, as during your first
few flights using this setup your mind could conceivably revert back and
cause you to move the stick the wrong way to correct laterally at just the
wrong time on a landing.
The solution is simply to take the airplane upstairs and work it for a while
in turns. That's what I did with the Luscombe.
Dudley
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:32:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

As for yoke versus stick. I have got used to flying with both, but given the
chance I would always choose a stick IRL. If I wanted half a steering wheel
I would stay in a car :-)

I could never BUY an aircraft fitted with a yoke, or even a yolk, as I read
the other day!

Cheers,

Quilly











An individual reply goes into my spam filter
May 17, 2005 9:08:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB"
> http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs29&d=05201&f=2map01.jpg


I'd say about 13 nm on the 100° radial from Lampasas.

I may get to finish the flight again soon... if JayDub doesn't call in the
middle of the night again... :-)

Dallas
!