tricky ILS standard fs2004 Beachcraft A350

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Flying the Beachcraft A350 on an ILS landing it happens to me quite often
that at about 1 to 2 miles before t/d the plane starts losing altitude too
quickly.
Descending on AP, with gear down and flaps on APR, flying a little about 110
kias, all goes well until 2 nm or so before the threshold. At that point it
almost looks like the plane is behaving like the airspeed is too low. For
the record: I don't change throttle and fly very stable and controlled on
ILS. No strange weather or something.

I always blamed myself, for apparently not paying enough attention to
airspeed, or for setting throttle too low, but lately I realize that it also
happens if I don't really do anything, only wait for the moment to go into
manual for the landing.

Is this a flaw in the Beachcraft model? Does this happen IRL? Can it be that
the plane behaves differently because there is only a thin layer of air
underneath, since I fly at a couple of hundred feet altitude at that time.

Just wondered

Gerard

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Gerard wrote:

> Flying the Beachcraft A350 ...
<snip>

What aircraft is this? Do you mean Dreamfleet's Beechcraft Bonanza
A36?

Secondly, what do you mean that the aircraft looks like the plane is
behaving like the airspeed is too low? What specifically happens?

If in fact you are referring to the Bonanza A36, the aircraft with gear
and flaps extended does go very nose low. This is a characteristic of
the real aircraft and is modeled pretty accurately in Dreamfleet's
version. This does not mean that airspeed is dangerously low,
however, as Vso (stall speed with flaps and gear extended) drops to
about 52 kts (weight depending).

--
Peter
(trying the new moniker)

 

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Gerard wrote:

> Ghee.. sorry... I feel a bit stupid. I meant the Beechcraft King Air
350.
> The default fs2k4 plane. Sorry for being so sloppy.

Ahh, OK! That explains it.

You know, I recall experiencing the exact same anomaly with the default
King Air that you reported and I definitely wrote it off to a faulty
flight dynamics. After that incident occurred (some two years ago
now), I decided to spend more of my valuable time using better written
add-ons (be they free or at a cost).

--
Peter

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <proffice@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1116342843.166889.77840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Gerard wrote:
>
>> Flying the Beachcraft A350 ...
> <snip>
>
> What aircraft is this? Do you mean Dreamfleet's Beechcraft Bonanza
> A36?

Ghee.. sorry... I feel a bit stupid. I meant the Beechcraft King Air 350.
The default fs2k4 plane. Sorry for being so sloppy.



> Secondly, what do you mean that the aircraft looks like the plane is
> behaving like the airspeed is too low? What specifically happens?

While until then the plane is neatly following the glideslope, it is gettin
way below the glideslope near the runway.
If that happens I switch off AP, pull up and increase throttle. But being
quite low of course it can be too late. If so, I'm again very happy that
it's just a sim.
\

>
> If in fact you are referring to the Bonanza A36, the aircraft with gear
> and flaps extended does go very nose low. This is a characteristic of
> the real aircraft and is modeled pretty accurately in Dreamfleet's
> version. This does not mean that airspeed is dangerously low,
> however, as Vso (stall speed with flaps and gear extended) drops to
> about 52 kts (weight depending).
>

Thanks Peter!



> --
> Peter
> (trying the new moniker)
>

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi,

The sudden drop on approach while on AP is almost always due to running
out of up trim (which the autopilot uses to keep your nose up). I don't
know if 110 kts is the correct approach speed for this plane, but if you
don't want it to happen again you'll have to approach at a speed higher
than that to retain some up trim all the way to landing.

Hope this helps,

Gerard Verhoef wrote:
> "Beech45Whiskey" <proffice@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:1116342843.166889.77840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Gerard wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Flying the Beachcraft A350 ...
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>What aircraft is this? Do you mean Dreamfleet's Beechcraft Bonanza
>>A36?
>
>
> Ghee.. sorry... I feel a bit stupid. I meant the Beechcraft King Air 350.
> The default fs2k4 plane. Sorry for being so sloppy.
>
>
>
>
>>Secondly, what do you mean that the aircraft looks like the plane is
>>behaving like the airspeed is too low? What specifically happens?
>
>
> While until then the plane is neatly following the glideslope, it is gettin
> way below the glideslope near the runway.
> If that happens I switch off AP, pull up and increase throttle. But being
> quite low of course it can be too late. If so, I'm again very happy that
> it's just a sim.
> \
>
>
>>If in fact you are referring to the Bonanza A36, the aircraft with gear
>>and flaps extended does go very nose low. This is a characteristic of
>>the real aircraft and is modeled pretty accurately in Dreamfleet's
>>version. This does not mean that airspeed is dangerously low,
>>however, as Vso (stall speed with flaps and gear extended) drops to
>>about 52 kts (weight depending).
>>
>
>
> Thanks Peter!
>
>
>
>
>>--
>>Peter
>>(trying the new moniker)
>>
>
>
>


--
Tom Gibson
Cal Classic Propliners www.calclassic.com

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Thanks,

The good thing (for me at least) is that from your answer I understand that
my very average flying techniques are not the main reason for crashing the
king air.

Gerard

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Tom Gibson" <noway@nohow.com> wrote in message
news:428A324F.70907@nohow.com...
> Hi,
>
> The sudden drop on approach while on AP is almost always due to running
> out of up trim (which the autopilot uses to keep your nose up). I don't
> know if 110 kts is the correct approach speed for this plane, but if you
> don't want it to happen again you'll have to approach at a speed higher
> than that to retain some up trim all the way to landing.
>
> Hope this helps,

Thanks for responding Tom,

According to the kneeboard information the approach speed of the King Air
350 is somewhere between 100 and 109 kias, depending on weight (flaps and
gear down). My weight at approach is 12000 lbs, and according to the info I
should be able to approach with 100kias.

I'll check the trimwheel next time I fly, but I would be surprised to run
out of trim if the info in the kneeboard is correct.
Another thing: the last 3 nm from t/d I am hardly slowing down.

Gerard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Keep in mind that, on approach, you control altitude with power, and
airspeed with pitch.

The "running out of trim" is a very common problem; you want to fly the
approach with the trim wheel somewhere between centered, and slightly nose
up. If your trim is maxed-out, increase power until it returns to the proper
range.

And let me mention a sometimes contributing problem: "eyepoint". If you are
using the "default" eyepoint and the 2-D panel, it is not unusual for the
nose to be too high for you to clearly see the airport. Raising the eyepoint
1 "notch", by using [SHIFT]+[ENTER] will give you a much better view of the
runway (hit [SPACE] to return it to normal).

Hope this helps...



"Gerard Verhoef" <Gerard_Verhoef@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IWqie.4009$184.3340@amstwist00...
>
> "Tom Gibson" <noway@nohow.com> wrote in message
> news:428A324F.70907@nohow.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > The sudden drop on approach while on AP is almost always due to running
> > out of up trim (which the autopilot uses to keep your nose up). I don't
> > know if 110 kts is the correct approach speed for this plane, but if you
> > don't want it to happen again you'll have to approach at a speed higher
> > than that to retain some up trim all the way to landing.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
>
> Thanks for responding Tom,
>
> According to the kneeboard information the approach speed of the King Air
> 350 is somewhere between 100 and 109 kias, depending on weight (flaps and
> gear down). My weight at approach is 12000 lbs, and according to the info
I
> should be able to approach with 100kias.
>
> I'll check the trimwheel next time I fly, but I would be surprised to run
> out of trim if the info in the kneeboard is correct.
> Another thing: the last 3 nm from t/d I am hardly slowing down.
>
> Gerard
>
>

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Gerard Verhoef" <Gerard_Verhoef@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IWqie.4009$184.3340@amstwist00...
>
>
>> Hope this helps,
>
> Thanks for responding Tom,
>
> According to the kneeboard information the approach speed of the King Air
> 350 is somewhere between 100 and 109 kias, depending on weight (flaps and
> gear down). My weight at approach is 12000 lbs, and according to the info
> I should be able to approach with 100kias.
>
> I'll check the trimwheel next time I fly, but I would be surprised to run
> out of trim if the info in the kneeboard is correct.
> Another thing: the last 3 nm from t/d I am hardly slowing down.
>
> Gerard
>

Looking at the kneeboard, 100-109 are Vref speeds for the aircraft. Vref
being a short final speed, not the speed you fly the entire approach at. You
are most likely flying the approach too slow.

Try flying the approach with GS intercept at 135-140 KIAS, gear down at that
point, approach speed now 120-130 (gear drag should help speed reduction),
then begin reducing to 100-109 (depending on weight) at ~300 feet. That is
where you normally lower landing flaps if the runway is in sight. Cross
threshold at ~50 feet and Vref, touchdown at that speed or slightly lower.

One thing to remember, the GS receiver becomes EXTREMELY sensitive at 300
feet and lower. Only a few feet deviation from vertical centerline can give
full deflection. 200 feet is normal minimum for an ILS approach. At that
altitude, you should have the runway in sight and be off the instruments
with eyes outside the cockpit. If not, Missed Approach and try again.

The Learning Center has HTML documents on the KA350 with suggested power
settings and flap settings for an approach. Pretty much as I mentioned
above.

HTH,
Paul

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Paul Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message
newsNSdnQHOg-fL0BffRVn-pA@sirinet.net...
> "Gerard Verhoef" <Gerard_Verhoef@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:IWqie.4009$184.3340@amstwist00...
>>
>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> Thanks for responding Tom,
>>
>> According to the kneeboard information the approach speed of the King Air
>> 350 is somewhere between 100 and 109 kias, depending on weight (flaps and
>> gear down). My weight at approach is 12000 lbs, and according to the info
>> I should be able to approach with 100kias.
>>
>> I'll check the trimwheel next time I fly, but I would be surprised to run
>> out of trim if the info in the kneeboard is correct.
>> Another thing: the last 3 nm from t/d I am hardly slowing down.
>>
>> Gerard
>>
>
> Looking at the kneeboard, 100-109 are Vref speeds for the aircraft. Vref
> being a short final speed, not the speed you fly the entire approach at.
> You are most likely flying the approach too slow.
>
> Try flying the approach with GS intercept at 135-140 KIAS, gear down at
> that point, approach speed now 120-130 (gear drag should help speed
> reduction), then begin reducing to 100-109 (depending on weight) at ~300
> feet. That is where you normally lower landing flaps if the runway is in
> sight. Cross threshold at ~50 feet and Vref, touchdown at that speed or
> slightly lower.
>
> One thing to remember, the GS receiver becomes EXTREMELY sensitive at 300
> > feet and lower. Only a few feet deviation from vertical centerline can
> give full deflection. 200 feet is normal minimum for an ILS approach. At
> that altitude, you should have the runway in sight and be off the
> instruments with eyes outside the cockpit. If not, Missed Approach and try
> again.
>

Actually, the needles in ILS mode are meant to be more sensitive becuase you
need to see deviations sooner than when you are mearly tracking a VOR.

Full CDI needle deflection when tracking a VOR = 10 degrees off course
Full CDI needle deflection when flying an ILS = 2.5 degrees off centerline
of a beam which is only 5 degrees wide.

(Per FAA-H-8083-15 ... Instrument Flying Handbook.)

Good description of transitioning from approach to landing though I like to
be more established early on the approach so that no major pitch or power
changes need to be made on short final unless Mother Nature says so.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:citie.10466$Fv.10353@lakeread01...
>
> "Paul Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> newsNSdnQHOg-fL0BffRVn-pA@sirinet.net...
>> "Gerard Verhoef" <Gerard_Verhoef@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:IWqie.4009$184.3340@amstwist00...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>
>>> Thanks for responding Tom,
>>>
>>> According to the kneeboard information the approach speed of the King
>>> Air 350 is somewhere between 100 and 109 kias, depending on weight
>>> (flaps and gear down). My weight at approach is 12000 lbs, and according
>>> to the info I should be able to approach with 100kias.
>>>
>>> I'll check the trimwheel next time I fly, but I would be surprised to
>>> run out of trim if the info in the kneeboard is correct.
>>> Another thing: the last 3 nm from t/d I am hardly slowing down.
>>>
>>> Gerard
>>>
>>
>> Looking at the kneeboard, 100-109 are Vref speeds for the aircraft. Vref
>> being a short final speed, not the speed you fly the entire approach at.
>> You are most likely flying the approach too slow.
>>
>> Try flying the approach with GS intercept at 135-140 KIAS, gear down at
>> that point, approach speed now 120-130 (gear drag should help speed
>> reduction), then begin reducing to 100-109 (depending on weight) at ~300
>> feet. That is where you normally lower landing flaps if the runway is in
>> sight. Cross threshold at ~50 feet and Vref, touchdown at that speed or
>> slightly lower.
>>
>> One thing to remember, the GS receiver becomes EXTREMELY sensitive at 300
>> > feet and lower. Only a few feet deviation from vertical centerline can
>> give full deflection. 200 feet is normal minimum for an ILS approach. At
>> that altitude, you should have the runway in sight and be off the
>> instruments with eyes outside the cockpit. If not, Missed Approach and
>> try again.
>>
>
> Actually, the needles in ILS mode are meant to be more sensitive becuase
> you need to see deviations sooner than when you are mearly tracking a VOR.
>
> Full CDI needle deflection when tracking a VOR = 10 degrees off course
> Full CDI needle deflection when flying an ILS = 2.5 degrees off centerline
> of a beam which is only 5 degrees wide.
>
> (Per FAA-H-8083-15 ... Instrument Flying Handbook.)
>
> Good description of transitioning from approach to landing though I like
> to be more established early on the approach so that no major pitch or
> power changes need to be made on short final unless Mother Nature says so.
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> Chandler, AZ
>
Hi Jay,

I was talking about the spread of the GS signal, not the localizer. If
memory serves, (and at 70 years I am not sure it does ) it is much
narrower than the localizer beam. and it gets REAL narrow close to the
ground.

Forgot the degrees, but the sensitivity I remember.

Agree with your comment on being established. Works great in SEL--but for a
ME like the KA, it may not work as well. C-172 (T-41B) ILS approach (or any
IFR approach for that matter), I always flew at 90 KIAS. That way, if I had
to go missed, I had plenty of airspeed to play with. Conversely, if runway
in sight at 200, I have plenty of time to slow the little monster down.
Besides, Mother Nature has a way of springing surprises. And bad news does
not improve with time!! )

Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Paul Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Cr-dnZc8kt5J->>
> Hi Jay,
>
> I was talking about the spread of the GS signal, not the localizer. If
> memory serves, (and at 70 years I am not sure it does ) it is much
> narrower than the localizer beam. and it gets REAL narrow close to the
> ground.
>
> Forgot the degrees, but the sensitivity I remember.
>
> Agree with your comment on being established. Works great in SEL--but for
> a ME like the KA, it may not work as well. C-172 (T-41B) ILS approach (or
> any IFR approach for that matter), I always flew at 90 KIAS. That way, if
> I had to go missed, I had plenty of airspeed to play with. Conversely, if
> runway in sight at 200, I have plenty of time to slow the little monster
> down. Besides, Mother Nature has a way of springing surprises. And bad
> news does not improve with time!! )
>
> Paul
>

My bad, you are correct about the beam width getting narrower as you
approach the runway.

Jay

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

While the GS beam width does get narrower, does that change the sensitivity
or needle deflection?


"Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:yiuie.10502$Fv.7462@lakeread01...
> "Paul Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Cr-dnZc8kt5J->>
> > Hi Jay,
> >
> > I was talking about the spread of the GS signal, not the localizer. If
> > memory serves, (and at 70 years I am not sure it does ) it is much
> > narrower than the localizer beam. and it gets REAL narrow close to the
> > ground.
> >
> > Forgot the degrees, but the sensitivity I remember.
> >
> > Agree with your comment on being established. Works great in SEL--but
for
> > a ME like the KA, it may not work as well. C-172 (T-41B) ILS approach
(or
> > any IFR approach for that matter), I always flew at 90 KIAS. That way,
if
> > I had to go missed, I had plenty of airspeed to play with. Conversely,
if
> > runway in sight at 200, I have plenty of time to slow the little monster
> > down. Besides, Mother Nature has a way of springing surprises. And bad
> > news does not improve with time!! )
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> My bad, you are correct about the beam width getting narrower as you
> approach the runway.
>
> Jay
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Lakeview Bill" <bdentonchi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
newsBuie.3231$tX5.183@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> While the GS beam width does get narrower, does that change the
> sensitivity
> or needle deflection?
>

Narrower the beam, the more sensitive it is. And the faster you can fly
right out of the
beam.

Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

I Gerard,The kingair 350 is usualy easy to us but it's quite fast
aircraft.On ILS app.You should not put more than 15 degres flaps for
the first part of app.Make sure to intercept the loc at proper
alti.speed sould be 130 kts.8 miles from runway.At 5 miles reduce speed
to 110 kts.extend flaps 30, gear down .At 500 ft. above the runway turn
off AP.land manualy,and keep an eye on speed.The interception of the
loc at the proper alti.is very important, a good glideslop depend on
this.Also don't put all flaps to early this will decrease the speed to
fast and you will get problem to control it.Try that and let me
know.Good luck

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Thanks JP,

This is more or less the way I land the craft. What surprised me is that it
looked like that the KA350 is somehow more sensitive on airspeed than other
aircrafts, the default Cessna as well as the Learjet seem to have a better
fault tolerance towards bad pilots like myself.

Perhaps I simply don't pay enough attention to the airspeed

Thanks

I'm gonna fly a couple of landings the first time I have some time to play

Gerard


"j.p." <j.p.@forums.simradar.com> wrote in message
news:1116344485.8347@forums.simradar.com...
>I Gerard,The kingair 350 is usualy easy to us but it's quite fast
> aircraft.On ILS app.You should not put more than 15 degres flaps for
> the first part of app.Make sure to intercept the loc at proper
> alti.speed sould be 130 kts.8 miles from runway.At 5 miles reduce speed
> to 110 kts.extend flaps 30, gear down .At 500 ft. above the runway turn
> off AP.land manualy,and keep an eye on speed.The interception of the
> loc at the proper alti.is very important, a good glideslop depend on
> this.Also don't put all flaps to early this will decrease the speed to
> fast and you will get problem to control it.Try that and let me
> know.Good luck
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
> Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!