fighter keeping up with a Cessna?

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi,

I believe they circled the Cessna.

Hope this helps,

Tom Orle wrote:
> The recent Washington incident makes me ask this question from
> the experts:
> How can a jet fighter really keep up with a Cessna??
> Wouldn't any fighter drop out of the sky at single engine Cessna
> speeds - especially if the Cessna driver decides to slow to stall +
> 10% speeds with the flaps hanging out?
>
> Just curious ....
>
> -=tom=-


--
Tom Gibson
Cal Classic Propliners www.calclassic.com

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Probably why they invited the helicopter to the tea party...

"Tom Orle" <xspam.torle@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6mjs815nbmrl171rpuvtv6m1qo23lmamlh@4ax.com...
> The recent Washington incident makes me ask this question from
> the experts:
> How can a jet fighter really keep up with a Cessna??
> Wouldn't any fighter drop out of the sky at single engine Cessna
> speeds - especially if the Cessna driver decides to slow to stall +
> 10% speeds with the flaps hanging out?
>
> Just curious ....
>
> -=tom=-

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Tom Orle <xspam.torle@comcast.net> wrote:

> The recent Washington incident makes me ask this question from
> the experts:
> How can a jet fighter really keep up with a Cessna??

Have you ever seen the Air Force Thunderbirds aerial demonstration? They
have one particular demonstration where one F-16 slows down to about 100
kts or so. The result is a very high angle of attack.

> Wouldn't any fighter drop out of the sky at single engine Cessna
> speeds - especially if the Cessna driver decides to slow to stall +
> 10% speeds with the flaps hanging out?

If the C150 pilot really decided to slow down, I would imagine that the
F-16 would simply fly wider circles around the aircraft or, perhaps, fall
behind him and lock his machine gun or Sidewinder on the target.

--
Peter


















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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Tom Orle" <xspam.torle@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6mjs815nbmrl171rpuvtv6m1qo23lmamlh@4ax.com...
> The recent Washington incident makes me ask this question from
> the experts:
> How can a jet fighter really keep up with a Cessna??
> Wouldn't any fighter drop out of the sky at single engine Cessna
> speeds - especially if the Cessna driver decides to slow to stall +
> 10% speeds with the flaps hanging out?
>
> Just curious ....
>
> -=tom=-

It's not easy, and the equation that allows the Viper to get that slow is a
complicated one. It can only be done in specific conditions.
The Cessna 150 in cruise is level at a bit over 100kts. To slow the Viper
down to co-speed with the Cessna, several factors have to be in play.
First of all, the GW (internal fuel+ loadouts) for the Viper have to be in
play at under a T/W ratio for the Viper that allows a deep entry into the
back side power curve. The thrust available vs thrust required have to allow
power increase behind the curve that will accommodate the 100kts airspeed at
an angle of attack below CLmax for the Viper.
The GW available for the Viper ranges from about 17K to about 32Klbs at
takeoff. The thrust available for the F100 engine is around 25K. If the GW
of the Viper trying to go co-speed with the Cessna is over 25K, it can be a
serious problem on the back side of the curve. If the GW at engagement is
within the T/W ratio required, the Viper can be slowed and hung out on the
thrust vector with one additional factor in play.
The FLCS (Flight Control System) will tone the pilot as the aoa is increased
on the back side of the power curve as the Viper slows,and initiate an aoa
reduction automatically unless the manual pitch override is selected. If
selected by the pilot, the Viper's automatic control system will allow aoa
over 29 degrees, which depending on the exact aerodynamics in play for the
Viper, will probably be necessary to achieve 100KTS.
It's a touchy game that far in on the curve, and the slightest g and/or bank
would probably depart the airplane. It's sort of like walking a tightrope.
Hope this helps
Dudley Henriques

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote:

Thanks Dudley for the detailed explanation.

But it raises other questions. The way you explain it, the pilot has
his hands ful just keeping the Viper aloft.

Now, if the Cessna becomes hostile, the Viper has to level out of his
high aoa to get a lock on to the Cessna, right?

So, now we have a very slow Viper coming out of a high aoa, barely
hanging on, trying to stay in the air at a relatively low altitude at
that, and also trying to lock onto a target. If the pilot increses
thrust, which he'll have to do as the aoa decreses, he'll shoot right
past the Cessna and since he doesn't have a tail gun the Cessna is
free to do what he wants until the Viper does a 180!

-=tom=-

>It's not easy, and the equation that allows the Viper to get that slow is a
>complicated one. It can only be done in specific conditions.
>The Cessna 150 in cruise is level at a bit over 100kts. To slow the Viper
>down to co-speed with the Cessna, several factors have to be in play.
>First of all, the GW (internal fuel+ loadouts) for the Viper have to be in
>play at under a T/W ratio for the Viper that allows a deep entry into the
>back side power curve. The thrust available vs thrust required have to allow
>power increase behind the curve that will accommodate the 100kts airspeed at
>an angle of attack below CLmax for the Viper.
>The GW available for the Viper ranges from about 17K to about 32Klbs at
>takeoff. The thrust available for the F100 engine is around 25K. If the GW
>of the Viper trying to go co-speed with the Cessna is over 25K, it can be a
>serious problem on the back side of the curve. If the GW at engagement is
>within the T/W ratio required, the Viper can be slowed and hung out on the
>thrust vector with one additional factor in play.
>The FLCS (Flight Control System) will tone the pilot as the aoa is increased
>on the back side of the power curve as the Viper slows,and initiate an aoa
>reduction automatically unless the manual pitch override is selected. If
>selected by the pilot, the Viper's automatic control system will allow aoa
>over 29 degrees, which depending on the exact aerodynamics in play for the
>Viper, will probably be necessary to achieve 100KTS.
>It's a touchy game that far in on the curve, and the slightest g and/or bank
>would probably depart the airplane. It's sort of like walking a tightrope.
>Hope this helps
>Dudley Henriques
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Tom Orle" <xspam.torle@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3p9v81dl4h4a0f0teu54l71q26lljlir3n@4ax.com...

> I like the thought of a very high AOA - a little more and they'd be
> doing the Cobra :-)) I wonder if the average reserve pilot is trained
> for that??
>
> -=tom=-

No. The Cobra is a fine show maneuver, but as far as ACM is concerned, any
fighter pilot stupid enough to do one in a fight would instantly go to Ps=0
and provide a tracking solution for the attacker at the same time.
In the fighter community, the Cobra is a non issue....considered a totally
non ACM related maneuver.
Dudley Henriques