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Letter From CEO of Hobby Lobby inregard to Obamacare

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A Letter from Hobby Lobby Stores CEO
By David Green, the founder and CEO of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn't much bigger than most people's living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God's word. From there,Hobby Lobby has become one of the nation's largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest. We believe that it is by God's grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We've not only added jobs in a weak economy, we've raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.

But now, our government threatens to change all of that. A new government health care mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs. It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines.

Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy. Our government threatens to fine a company that's raised wages four years running. Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs. It's not right. I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief.

So, Hobby Lobby and my family are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don't like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is going to make that much more difficult. The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law. I say that's a choice no American and no American business should have to make.
The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief. They have exempted thousands of companies but will not except Christian organizations including the Catholic church.

Since you will not see this covered in any of the liberal media, pass this on to all your contacts.

Sincerely,
David Green, CEO and Founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

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wanamingo said:
Good to see the religious beliefs of the owners of the Hobby Lobby trump the beliefs of their workers.

More political motivation masked by religion.
More like owners of private companies running their businesses according to their principles and not as government mandates.

If a privately owned company can make policy that concealed carry is not allowed in their businesses in a State where concealed carry is perfectly legal and where that policy effectively trumps State law in favor of the rights of private business, then a privately owned company can rightfully sue the government for mandating them to provide a service that is against their principles.

Unfortunately government mandates are politicizing religious principles.




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johnsonma said:
I wonder if any Muslim or Jewish people work for them. Since they feel the need to impose their faith on those that work for them they must hire only christians.


I would wager they do, employ people who do not agree with their core beliefs 100%.
It would be like saying no Christian, works at say, Starbucks or Wal-mart.

wanamingo said:
What about legitimate contraception for a medical condition? You and I know there are enough cases to warrant contraception to regulate "Monthly Cycles".
Most if not all drug prescription plans make exceptions for women who need contraception for reasons other than birth control. If a woman needs oral contraception to regulate heavy menstruation, as hormone stabilizers, or prevent ovarian cysts, etc then it is no longer using contraception as contraception. At that point doctors and insurers consider the prescription a "medical necessity" as it changes the nature of the reason for taking the contraception from strictly being for birth control to being necessary for maintaining health and/or lifestyle.

There may be a minority of religious organizations that choose a specific health insurer because they do not cover oral contraception as part of the base package, but I venture that those companies are in the extreme minority. Most likely, religious organizations, like any other company managing health care costs, choose their health care insurer based on cost for value and the amount of coverage provided.

The irony of this whole issue is that there are many religious (Catholic) organizations that already provide oral contraception as part of the overall package offered by their health insurer. Which only plays into the fallacy of politicizing contraception as a women's health issue.

JBB-SaDo said:
Quote:
A Letter from Hobby Lobby Stores CEO
By David Green, the founder and CEO of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn't much bigger than most people's living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God's word. From there,Hobby Lobby has become one of the nation's largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest. We believe that it is by God's grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We've not only added jobs in a weak economy, we've raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.

But now, our government threatens to change all of that. A new government health care mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs. It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines.

Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy. Our government threatens to fine a company that's raised wages four years running. Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs. It's not right. I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief.

So, Hobby Lobby and my family are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don't like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is going to make that much more difficult. The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law. I say that's a choice no American and no American business should have to make.
The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief. They have exempted thousands of companies but will not except Christian organizations including the Catholic church.

Since you will not see this covered in any of the liberal media, pass this on to all your contacts.

Sincerely,
David Green, CEO and Founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.
I am sick and tired seeing these religious fanatics making excuses for the health of their employees and Obamacare. This is just a dam excuse because he is cheap.

I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief.

Just read this, apply it towards the constitution

chunkymonster said:
Most if not all drug prescription plans make exceptions for women who need contraception for reasons other than birth control. If a woman needs oral contraception to regulate heavy menstruation, as hormone stabilizers, or prevent ovarian cysts, etc then it is no longer using contraception as contraception. At that point doctors and insurers consider the prescription a "medical necessity" as it changes the nature of the reason for taking the contraception from strictly being for birth control to being necessary for maintaining health and/or lifestyle.

There may be a minority of religious organizations that choose a specific health insurer because they do not cover oral contraception as part of the base package, but I venture that those companies are in the extreme minority. Most likely, religious organizations, like any other company managing health care costs, choose their health care insurer based on cost for value and the amount of coverage provided.

The irony of this whole issue is that there are many religious (Catholic) organizations that already provide oral contraception as part of the overall package offered by their health insurer. Which only plays into the fallacy of politicizing contraception as a women's health issue.


Thats not what the guy wants, he doesnt want to offer any form of birth control for any reason, the owner considers them abortion drugs.

I also find it interesting that right around obamacare time people suddenly start caring... Did you know that 28 states already covered contraceptives before obamacare? There was no problem before. Heres a good example of a religious institution that had been offering birth control as a part of its health care.

There are already religious exceptions, its not like anyone is going to burn in hellfire because a cashier at a hobby lobby is is using contraceptive. And even if you do go to hell for practicing safe sex thats no god I want a part of.

Hes a loony who is forcing morality on his employees.

JAYDEEJOHN said:
I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief.

Just read this, apply it towards the constitution


Which companies did the government pardon from the mandate because of cost or convenience?

wanamingo said:
Which companies did the government pardon from the mandate because of cost or convenience?



Here you go mingo.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2900475/posts

List of Obamacare Exempt Companies

24 Hour Fitness
Allied Building Inspectors IUOE Local 211 Welfare Fund
Alpha Omega Home Health, LLC
Andersen Corporation
Bowman Sheet Metal Heating & Air-conditioning
Bricklayers Insurance & Welfare Fund
Bridge, Structural, Ornamental & Reinforcing Ironworkers Local Union No. 60*
Carey Johnson Oil Co, Inc
Catholic Charities of the Diocese of Albany*
Cement Masons' Local No. 502 Welfare Fund
City of Bloomington VEBA Health Savings Plan*
City of Burnsville*
City of Olathe*
Clausen Miller PC
Crystal Run Village, Inc*
Delta Apparel
Discovery Benefits*
Dr. Trailer Repair, Inc.
Employer-Teamsters Local Nos. 175 & 505 Health and Welfare Fund
Entrust
Fabri-Quilt
GC Harvesting, Inc.
Glen Curtis, Inc. #2143
Heritage Christian Services
IBEW Local 3 NYC Electrical Division Health & Welfare Fund
Indiana Area UFCW Union Locals and Retail Food Employers' Health and Welfare Plan
Ingham County
Innovative Driver Services Company
Integrity Data*
Inter-County Hospitalization Plan, Inc.
Jakov P. Dulcich & Sons
Jefferson Rehabilitation Center
JLG Harvesting, Inc.
Johnson Machine Works
Kent County
Laborers' District Council of Virginia Health and Welfare Trust Fund
Laborers National Health and Welfare Fund
Local 1245 Health Fund
Local 237 Teamsters Suffolk Regional Off-Track Betting Corp. Health and Welfare Trust Fund
Local 295 Welfare Fund
Local 381 Group Insurance Fund
Local 805 Welfare Fund
Marble Industry Trust Fund
McGregor Schools ISD #4*
MJ Soffe
MO-Kan Teamsters and Welfare Fund
Mounds View Public Schools*
MVP
North State Bank
North States Industries Inc*
Pathways Inc.
Pavers and Road Builders District Council Welfare Fund
Phoenix Children's Academy
Roofers Local 8 Insurance & Trust Fund
San Bernardino IHSS Public Authority
SCC Healthcare Group, LLP
Schenectady ARC*
Schoharie County ARC*
Sieben Polk Law Firm
Sitel, Inc.
Southern Graphic Communication Health Fund
Springbrook Standalone HRA*
St. Lawrence NYSARC*
Sunview Vineyards of California, Inc.
Tandem Eastern Inc. / Consolidated Transport Systems, Inc.
Taylor Farms
Teamsters Union Local # 35
The Day Care Council/Council of Supervisors and Administrators Welfare Fund
The Public Authority of San Luis Obispo County
The University Financing Foundation, Inc.
The Village of Newark Non-Union Employee Plan*
Theatrical Stage Employees Local One
Tuff Shed, Inc.
U.A. Local 13 & Employers Group Insurance Plan*
UFCW & Participating Food Industry Employers Tri-State Health & Welfare Fund
UFCW Local 1500 Welfare Fund
UFCW Local One Health Care Fund
Ulster Greene ARC*
Westminster-Canterbury of Lynchburg
Wine and Liquor Salesmen of NJ
A-1 Transport
AIDS Council of Northeastern New York
Avon Central School District
Azeros Health Plans, Inc.*
Benton County*
Bessey Tools, Inc.
Canandaigua City Schools*
City of Eagan*
City of Shakopee Post-Employment Health Care Savings Account Plan *
Community Work and Independence Inc.
Continuing Developmental Services
Crystal Cabinet Works, Inc.
CU*Answers, Inc.
Euromarket Designs, Inc., d/b/a Crate and Barrel
First National Bank of Dietrerich
Franziska Racker Centers*
Fridley Public Schools Health Savings Plan*
FSA/SUNYAB-Campus Dining and Shops
Genesee County ARC*
Genesee County Economic Development Corp Health Reimbursement Account*
Grand Island Central School District*
Hammondsport Central School District
Imperial Wholesale, Inc.
Learning Disabilities Association of Western New York
Minnesota State Retirement System Post-Employment Health Care Savings Plan - City of Roseville*
Naples Central School District
Naples Central School District Support Staff
Newark Central School District
Niagara-Wheatfield CSD Self Funded
Panama Central School District
People 1st Health Strategies, Inc.
Pipe Fitters' Welfare Fund, Local 597*
Ron Clark Construction Health reimbursement Arrangement*
Sherman Central School District
Silver Creek Central School District*
Sodus Central School District
Telco Construction
Town of Albion
Town of Chenango
Town of Lockport
Twin City Die Casting*
Western Area Volunteer Emergency Services *
Westfield Academy*
Williamson Central School District
American Radio Association Plan
Carpenters Health and Security Trust of Western Washington
Communicare Health Benefits Trust
District Council 1707 Local 389 Home Care Employees Health & Welfare Fund
Health and Welfare Plan of the Laundry, Dry Cleaning Workers & Allied Industry Health Fund, Workers United
Northern Illinois and Iowa Laborers Health and Welfare Fund
Prell Services
United Food and Commercial Workers Retail Employees and Employers Health and Welfare Plan
A-1 Realty*
AABR*
ABCO Diecasters*
Alfred P. Sloan*
Alizio & Galfunt*
All American Heating and AC*
Allied Pilots Association
Amherst Central School District*
AristaCare at Meadow Springs*
Arthur Sanderson& Sons*
Associated General Contractors of ND Employees*
Autistic Service, Inc.*
Bartech Group
Basf Fuel Cell, Inc.*
Battery Park City Authority*
Battery Park City Conservancy*
Benefit Analysis Inc.*
Blaze SSI*
Blue Beacon
Board of Trustees for the Operating Engineers Local 101 Health and Welfare Fund
Business Wire*
Cargo Ventures*
Carnegie Corporation of NY*
Carpenters Local No. 491 Health & Welfare Plan
Central Laborers' Welfare Fund
Central States, Southeast and Southwest Areas Health and Welfare Fund
City of Cottage Grove*
City of Inver Grove Heights*
City Of Roseville MN*
Clinton Management*
Cloquet Area Fire Department*
Cohen Partners*
Community Bank of Bergen County*
Community Mainstreaming*
Contract Cleaners Service Employees Benefit Trust
Cornerstone Search Group*
D & D Ag Supply and Construction, Inc.*
Dial Senior Management, Inc
Douglaston Development*
Dr. Margaret Andrin, MD FACOG LLC*
Dynasil Corporation*
Echo Molding*
Eighth District Electrical Benefit Fund
Electrical Workers Health and Welfare Fund
Enterprise Concrete Products, LLC Texas
Epilepsy Foundation*
Epilepsy Foundation Northeastern New York*
Evans Chemetics*
Excellus Health Plan
Fairport Central School District*
Goodwill Industries of Central Indiana
Gregory Packaging*
Gulf Coast Health Care
Handcraft Manufacturing Corporation*
Haver Analytics Health Waiver*
Health Care Employees Dental and Medical Trust
Hiawatha Medical, Inc.*
Highfield Gardens Care Center*
Hirsch International*
Hotel, Restaurant & Bar Employees Health and Welfare Fund
Hypex Inc.*
IBEW Local Union No. 126 Health and Welfare Fund
International Union of Operating Engineers, Supplemental Benefit Fund Local 409*
Interstate Connecting Components*
Jacobson Family Investments*
J-B Wholesale Pet Supplies*
JKL International*
Jump, Scutellaro, and Co., LLP*
KC International dba Ekman Recycling*
Kerwin Communications*
Kingstown Capital Management*
Koellman Gear Corporation*
Kramer Electronics*
Lakeview Subacute Care Center*
Langan Engineering and Financial Services, Inc.*
LBDD*
League of Minnesota Cities*
Leisure Properties LLC d/b/a/ Crownline Boats*
Liberty House Nursing Home*
Lifetime Assistance, Inc*
Lincoln Hall*
Local 888 UFCW
Maharishi University of Management
Mamiya America Corporation*
Mandt Reiss & Associates PLLC
Margaret P. Muscarelle Child Dev. Center*
Merrill Farms LLC
Micelli Motors, Inc.*
Midwest Asphalt Corporation *
Midwest Teamsters
Monroe County*
Nassau County Chapter, NYSARC, Inc*
NCHC, Inc.*
New York State Assn. for Retarded Children Erie Co. Chapter dba/Heritage Centers*
NJ Society of CPAs*
North Greece Fire District*
Northern Minnesota-Wisconsin Area Retail Food Health & Welfare Fund
Ogontz Avenue Revitalization Corporation*
Parkview Care and Rehab*
PCB Machining Solutions*
PCB Piezotronics*
Philadelphia Macaroni Company*
Phoenix Partners Group, LP*
Privilege Underwriters, Inc.*
Progressive AE*
Quadrant Capital Advisors, Inc.*
Regency Management Group, LLC*
Rhoads Industries*
Roofers Local #96 Health & Welfare Fund
Rowe and Company, Inc.*
Rush-Henrietta Central School District HRA*
Security Benefit Fund of the Uniformed Firefighters Association of New York City
SEIU Health and Welfare fund, 2000
Seneca Cayuga ARC*
Service Employees 32BJ North Health Benefit Fund*
Sierra Video Systems*
SMEG*
Strategic Industries*
Superior Officers Council Health and Welfare Fund
Teamsters Local Union 966 Health Fund
Techno Source USA*
The Alternative Living Group, Inc.*
The Arc of Otsego (Otsego County Chapter NYSARC, Inc.)*
The Arc of Rensselaer County*
The City of Cloquet*
The Henry Luce Foundation*
The Maritime Aquarium of Norwalk, Inc.*
The Pew Charitable Trusts*
The Rehabilitation Center*
The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation*
Topco*
Totino Grace High School*
Urstadt Biddle Properties*
W.H. Reaves & Co., Inc.*
Walder, Hayden & Brogan, PA*
Walters-Morgan Construction, Inc.
Wellspring Advisors*
West Bergen Mental Healthcare*
Westchester ARC*
Westchester JCS*
Western Beef*
Hollow Metal Trust Fund
Theatrical Teamsters Local 817 IBT Welfare Fund
Vestal Manufacturing Enterprises, Inc.
AccessAbility, Inc.
Ackerman Oil Employee Benefit Trust
Albany County Chapter, NYSARC Inc., DBA New Visions of Albany*
American Eagle Outfitters
Basin Disposal
Bengard Ranch, Inc.
Bestway Rental, Inc
Big Lots, Inc.
Byrd Harvest, Inc.
Cardinal Hayes Home for Children HRA plan*
CDS Administrative Services, LLC
Center for Energy and Environment*
City of Brooklyn Park*
D'Arrigo Bros. Co. of California
Defender Services, Inc.
DineEquity, Inc
Green Leaf Distributors, Inc.
IBEW Local Union No. 728 Family Healthcare Plan
Joseph Gallo Farms
Life Benefit Plan
Luther Automotive Group HRA*
Metrics Inc.
Nueces County Appraisal District
Ocean Properties Ltd
P-R Farms, Inc.
SEIU Health & Welfare Fund
Sports Arena Employees' Local 137 Welfare Fund
Staywell Saipan Basic Plan
Truck Drivers and Helpers Local 355 Health and Welfare Fund
Communications Workers of America, Local 1180 Security Benefits Fund
Health and Welfare Fund of the Detectives' Endowment Association, Inc. Police Department City of New York
Man-U Service Contract Health and Welfare Fund
Paschall Truck Lines, Inc.
SEIU Local 300, Civil Service Forum Employees Welfare Fund
Electrical Welfare Trust Fund
Highmark West Virginia Inc. d/b/a Mountain State Blue Cross Blue Shield
Advocacy and Resource Center*
Amalgamated, Industrial and Toy & Novelty Workers of America, Local 223 Sick Benefit Fund
Atlanta Plumbers & Steamfitters Fringe Benefit Funds
Aurora Consulting Group, Inc.*
Brock Enterprises, Inc.
Central Texas Health and Benefit Trust Fund Locals 520, 60 & 72
Electricians Health, Welfare & Pension Plans I.B.E.W. Local Union No. 995
Essex County Chapter NYSARC, Inc. dba Mountain Lake Services*
Executive Management Services, Inc.
Florida Laborers Health Fund
Fulton County Chapter NYSARC, Inc.*
General Parts, LLC*
Greystone program, Inc*
Hacienda Harvesting, Inc.
IBEW Local No. 640 and Arizona Chapter NECA Health & Welfare Trust Fund
Lone Star Park at Grand Prairie
Louisiana Electrical Health Fund
Maverick, Inc. Employee Health Care Benefits Plan
Memphis Construction Benefit Fund
Mid-South Carpenters Regional Council Health and Welfare Fund
Mountain Lake Services
NECA-IBEW Local 480 Health and Welfare Plan
Plumbers and Pipefitters Welfare Fund of Local Union No. 719
Retiree Plan of the Central States, Southeast and Southwest Areas Health and Welfare Fund
Richmond Community Services*
Sheet Metal Workers Local No. 177 Health and Welfare, Pension and Vacation Funds
Sheet Metal Workers' National Health Fund
South Central Laborers' Health & Welfare Fund
Southeastern Pipetrades Health & Welfare Fund
Telamon Corporation Health Reimbursement Arrangement*
The ARC of Delaware County*
UFCW Local 1262 and Employers Health & Welfare Fund
United Cerebral Palsy of Ulster County, Inc*
Vincent B Zaninovich & Sons, Inc.
Wayne ARC Standalone HRA Section 105 Plan*
Wildwood Program*
Allied Welfare Fund
Becker County Post-Retirement Health Care Savings Plan*
Becker County VEBA*
FIDUCIA*
Triple-S Salud, Inc.
B. R. Company
Britz Companies, ET AL
Century Health and Wellness Benefit Plan and Trust
EBSA Foundation
Encore Enterprises
Faurecia USA Holdings
Goodwill Industries of Kentucky, Inc.
Minnesota Cement Masons Health and Welfare Fund
Plumbers Local Union No. 690 of Philadelphia and Vicinity Health Plan
Robert Heath Trucking Inc
Securitas Security Services USA, Inc.
Sunwest Fruit Company, Inc
The Louis Berger Group, Inc.
United Food & Commercial Workers Unions and Employers Midwest Health Benefits Fund
WD Young& Sons, Inc.
Atlantis Casino Resort Spa
United Food and Commercial Workers and Employers Arizona
Act Trust Mini-Med Plan
Allen's Family Food
Anderson Media Corporation
Blasters, Drillers & Miners Union Local No. 29 Welfare Fund
Care Initiatives, Inc.
Cement and Concrete Workers District Council Welfare Fund Plan
COARC*
Construction Workers Local 147 Welfare Fund
Crystal Run Healthcare
Diamondback Management Services, LTD
Freeman Metal Products
Hardwick Clothes, Inc.
Hronis, Inc.
International Union of Bricklayers & Allied Craftworkers
Isaacson Isaacson Seridan & Fountain, LLP
Katy Industries, Inc.
Landscape, Irrigation and Lawn Sprinkler Industry Health and Welfare Plan and Trust
Local 298 Health Benefit Fund Plan
Local 803 Health and Welfare Fund
Louisiana Laborers Health and Welfare Fund
M.A. Mortenson
Maple Knoll Communities
Marshall Durbin Food Corporation
Minnesota Teamsters Construction Division
Name Brand, Inc.
Oklahoma Goodwill Industries
PepsiCo, Inc
Plumbers & Pipefitters Local Union 823 Health & Welfare Fund
Plumbers & Steamfitters Local No. 6 Health and Welfare Fund
Regent Care Center
Rice Food Markets, Inc.
Rice Food Markets, Inc.
Ricker Oil Company
Skilled Health Care
Southwestern Teamsters Security Fund
Teamsters Local 445 Welfare Plan
Teamsters Local 210 Affiliated Health and Insurance Fund
Teamsters Welfare Fund of Northern New Jersey Local 1723
The Durango Herald
The Talbots, Inc
Town of Frisco Medical Plan
Tudor Ranch
UNITE HERE Local 74 Welfare and Dental Trust
United Employees Health Plans
United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1000 and Kroger Dallas Health and Welfare Plan
United Service Employees Union, Local 377, RWDSU, UFCW
WageWorks, Inc
IBEW Local 613 and Contributing Employers Family Health Plan (Union)
Advantage Benefits Company, LLC
Aerospace Contractors' Trust**
AJFC Community Action Plan**
Altisource Portfolio Solutions
American Heritage Life Insurance Company
Americare Properties, Inc.
AMN Healthcare
Andrews Transport L.P.**
Anoka Hennepin Credit Union* **
APWU Health Plan Conversion Plan
Aspen Snowmass**
ATCO Rubber Products, Inc
Baylor County Hospital District
Belk Farms**
Bricklayers Local 1 of MD, VA and DC
Cardon & Associates, Inc**
Catholic Charities of the Diocese of Ogdensburg
Central Mills**
Civil Service Bar Association Security Benefit Fund**
Cotton Belt Inc.**
CPC Logistics Health & Welfare Plan**
Delmarva United Food and Commercial Workers**
Dole Food Company**
EchoStar**
First Acceptance Corporation
Fontanese Folts Aubrecht Ernst Architects, PC**
Forest Products Inc. Group Health Plan**
Fruhauf Uniform Direct Labor
Golden State Bulb Growers, Inc.**
Greater Kansas City Laborers Welfare Fund**
Grower's Transport LLC
Heartland Automotive**
Helfman Enterprises, Inc.**
Hoosier Stamping and Manufacturing Corp.
Horizon Bay Realty LLC**
I.B.E.W. Local 1249 Insurance Fund**
Ingomar Packing Company, LLC
Integra Healthcare, Inc. (Integrity Home Care)**
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers**
International Brotherhood of Trade Unions Health and Welfare Fund - Local 713
International Union of Operating Engineers Local 295-295C Welfare Trust Fund**
International union of Operating Engineers, Local Union Number 137**
Iron Workers Local Union #28 Health and Welfare Fund**
Lamanuzzi & Pantaleo**
Living Resources**
Local 1102 Amalgamated Welfare Fund
Local 1102 Health & Benefit Fund
Local 1102 Welfare Fund-- Lerner Employees
Local 272 Welfare Fund**
Local 338 Affiliated Benefit Funds
Madelia Community Hospital**
Max Homes, Loc**
Medical Development Corporation**
Mesa Air Group**
Mesa Packing**
Michigan Conference of Teamsters Welfare Fund**
Minnesota and North Dakota Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers**
Mission Linen Supply
NFI Industries
Operating Engineers Local 835 Health and Welfare Fund
Opportunity Resources, Inc. Health and Welfare Plan
Orange County AHRC* **
Orscheln Industries
Pacific Risk Management**
Pearson Candy Company
Pinnacle PRM**
Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 430 Health and Welfare Fund**
Progressive Logistics Services**
Pure Air Filter Sales & Service**
Rancho Maria PRM**
Reiter Affiliated Companies**
Retail, Wholesale & Dept. Store Union Local 1034 Welfare Fund
Rio Farms PRM**
Sensient Technologies Corp.
Service Employees International Union Local 1 Cleveland Welfare Fund
SFN Group
Sheet Metal Workers Funds of Local Union 38**
SMWIA 28**
Southeast OBGYN, PC* **
Southern CA Pipe Trades Trust Fund
Southern Operators Health Fund**
Stonebridge Hospitality Associates**
Sun Healthcare Group, Inc.
Teamsters Local 522 Welfare Fund Roofers Division
Teamsters Local Union 72 Welfare Fund**
Telesis Management Corporation
Texas Carpenters and Millwrights Health and Welfare Fund
The Mentor Network
The Wada Farms, Inc.
The Wilks Group, Inc. dba Ashley Furniture Homestore
The Wright Travel Agency**
Town of Grand Island* **
Trans-System, Inc.
True Leaf Farms**
UFCW Local 371 Amalgamated Welfare Fund**
United Crafts Benefits Fund**
United Food & Commercial Workers Unions and Employers Local No. 348 Health & Welfare Fund**
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1445 New Hampshire
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1459 and Contributing Employers Health and Welfare Fund**
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 464a**
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 911**
Varsity Contractors, Inc.
Waffle House
Weckworth Manufacturing**
Western Express, Inc.
Western Harvesting PRM Health Plan**
WG Yates and Sons Construction Company**
World Class Automotive**
Yukon-Kuskokwim Health Corporation**
Alaska Pipe Trade U.A. Local 367 Health and Security Trust**
Amalgamated National Health Fund
American Farms, PRM Health Plan**
American Growers Cooling, PRM Health Plan**
AUTO, LP, dba AutoInc. Health Benefit Plan**
Better Way Partners, LLC**
Big Valley Labor, PRM Health Plan**
CB Harvesting, PRM Health Plan**
City of Rockwall**
Cocopah Nurseries, Inc.
Express Harvesting, PRM Health Plan**
Fallen Oak Packing, PRM Health Plan**
FirstCarolinaCare Insurance Company on behalf of Longworth Industries
Foot Locker, Inc.**
Fresh Express
G&H Farms, PRM Health Plan**
Gill Ranch, PRM Health Plan**
Gill Transport, PRM Health Plan**
Gills Onions, PRM Health Plan**
Green Valley Farm Supply, PRM Health Plan**
Greencroft Communities
Growers Express, PRM Health Plan**
Hall Management Group, Inc.**
IH Services**
Independent Group Home Living Program, Inc.
King City Nursery, PRM Health Plan**
Meijer Health Benefits Plan/Primary Care Option
Mission Ranches, PRM Health Plan**
Moore's Retread & Tire of the Ark-La-Tex, Inc.
NOITU Insurance Trust Fund**
Payroll Solutions
Plumbers and Pipefitters Local No. 630 Welfare Fund
Seco Packing
Transcorr
United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1000
United Wire, Metal & Machine Health & Welfare Fund**
Western Growers Assurance Trust
Wisconsin United Food & Commercial Workers Unions and Employers Health Plan**
1199SEIU Greater New York Benefit Fund
A. Duda & Sons, Inc.
Adecco Group, Inc.
Biomedic Corporation
Buffets, Inc.
Carington Health System
Cleveland Bakers Teamsters
Club Chef LLC
Columbia Sussex Mgmt, LLC
CRST International Inc.
Darr Equipment, Co.
DC Cement Masons Welfare Fund
Deaconess Long Term Care
Diamond Comic Distributors, Inc.
ECOM Atlantic, Inc.
FW Walton, Inc.
G4S Secure Solutions
GC Services, L.P. & First Community Bancshares, Inc.
Guardsmark, LLC
Indiana Teamsters Health Benefits Fund
Knox County Association for Retarded Citizens
Laundry and Dry Cleaning Workers Local No. 52
Mars Super Markets, Inc.
MPS Group, Inc.
Nexion Health
Noodles & Company
Pharmaca Integrative Pharmacy
Quality Integrated Services, Inc.
RE Rabalais Constructors, LTD
RREMC LLC
Security Forces Inc.
Shirkey Nursing
Social Service Employees Union Local 371
Spindle, Cooling, & Warehouse
Strauss Discount Auto
Sunburst Hospitality
Susser Holding Corp
Telescope Casual Furniture
Teletech Holdings, Inc.
The Brinkman Corporation
The LDF Companies
United Food and Commercial Workers Union (Mount Laurel, NJ)
United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1459
Universal Orlando
Valley Services, Inc.
United Food and Commercial Workers and Participating Employers Interstate Health and Welfare Fund
Protocol Marketing Group
Sasnak
Star Tek
Adventist Care Centers
B.E.S.T of NY
Boskovich Farms, Inc
Café Enterprises, Inc.
Capital District Physicians
FleetPride, Inc.
Gallegos Corp
Hensley Industries, Inc.
Jeffords Steel and Engineering
Laborers' International Union of North America Local Union No. 616 Health and Welfare Plan
O.K. Industries
Service Employees Benefit Fund
Sun Pacific Farming Coop
SunWorld International, LLC
UFCW Allied Trade Health & Welfare Trust
United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1995
HCR Manor Care
IBEW No.915
Integra BMS for Culp, Inc.
New England Health Care Employees Welfare Fund †
Wiliamson-Dickie Manufacturing Company
Aegis Security Insurance Company †
Alliance One Tobacco
Asbestos Workers Local 53 Welfare Fund
Assurant Health (2nd Application)
Captain Elliot's Party Boats
Carlson Restaurants
CH Guenther & Son
CKM Industries dba Miller Environmental
Caribbean Workers’ Voluntary Employees’ Beneficiary Health and Welfare Plan †
Darden Restaurants
Duarte Nursery
Employees Security Fund
Florida Trowel Trades
Ingles Markets
Meijer
O'Reilly Auto Parts
Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 123 Welfare Fund
Sun Belt
UFCW Local 227
Uncle Julio's
United Group
US Imaging
Vino Farms
AdvantaStaff, Inc. †
Agricare
Alaska Seafood
American Fidelity
Convergys
Darensberries
Gowan Company
Greystar
Macayo Restaurants
Periodical Services
UniFirst
Universal Forest Products
UFCW Maximus Local 455
American Habilitation Services, Inc. †
GuideStone Financial Resources
Local 25 SEIU
MAUSER Corp.
Preferred Care, Inc.
Ruby Tuesday
The Dixie Group, Inc.
UFCW Local 1262
Whelan Security Company
AMF Bowling Worldwide
Assisted Living Concepts
Case & Associates
GPM Investments
Grace Living Centers
Mountaire Corporation †
Swift Spinning
Belmont Village
Caliber Services
Cracker Barrel
DISH Network
Groendyke Transport, Inc
Pocono Medical Center
Regis Corporation
The Pictsweet Co.
Diversified Interiors
Local 802 Musicians Health Fund
MCS Life Insurance Company †
The Buccaneer
CIGNA
Greater Metropolitan Hotel
Local 17 Hospitality Benefit Fund
GSC-ILA
The Allied Industries Health Fund
Harden Healthcare
Vernon Sheltered Workshop, Inc. Health and Welfare Plan #501
I.U.P.A.T
Sanderson Plumbing Products, Inc.
Transport Workers
United Federation of Teachers Welfare Fund
Aegis
Aetna
Allflex
Baptist Retirement
BCS Insurance
Cryogenic
Fowler Packing Co.
Guy C. Lee Mfg.
HealthPort
Jack in the Box
Maritime Association
Maverick County
Metropolitan D.C. Paving Industry Employees Health and Welfare Fund
PMPS-ILA
PS-ILA
QK/DRD (Denny's)
Reliance Standard
Tri-Pak
United Agricultural Benefit Trust ††

Nothing wrong with a company not wanting to pay for select medical care they don't believe in. Certain areas should be exempt such as birth control and things their religion is against. Since they are being forced into providing something they are religiously against as a FAMILY owned company, I back them. If they were not family owned, I wouldn't really care.

riser said:
Nothing wrong with a company not wanting to pay for select medical care they don't believe in. Certain areas should be exempt such as birth control and things their religion is against. Since they are being forced into providing something they are religiously against as a FAMILY owned company, I back them. If they were not family owned, I wouldn't really care.


So if the owners of a company are Jehovah Witnesses they can remove a blood transfusion from your healthcare because it doesn't match their beliefs?

wanamingo said:

There are already religious exceptions, its not like anyone is going to burn in hellfire because a cashier at a hobby lobby is is using contraceptive. And even if you do go to hell for practicing safe sex thats no god I want a part of.


He is not trying to mandate what his employees believe. He,
Spoiler
wants *the right back* to believe what he wants, and not have the Gov tell him what he can believe.


Hes a loony who is forcing morality on his employees.[/quotemsg]

He not "Forcing" his employees to work for him, as an employer I believe, in The U.S he still has the *right* to run his business anyway he deems fit. he is fighting because that right is being taken away.

So what you are saying now is that before a company hires a person they have to tell them what the owners religious beliefs are and if those beliefs interfere with your beliefs you have to seek work elsewhere?

And freedom of religion doesn't extend into the workplace.... Thats an awfully slippery slope you are on.

wanamingo said:
So what you are saying now is that before a company hires a person they have to tell them what the owners religious beliefs are and if those beliefs interfere with your beliefs you have to seek work elsewhere?


I didn't say The company should be forced to tell them before they employ someone.



Quote:
And freedom of religion doesn't extend into the workplace.... Thats an awfully slippery slope you are on.


Yeah I am, aren't I.
Faith has an place in everything we do. no matter what you believe, Your "religion or "non religion" it affects the decisions you make in life.


wanamingo said:
So if the owners of a company are Jehovah Witnesses they can remove a blood transfusion from your healthcare because it doesn't match their beliefs?


If it were a private business, yes, they should not have to pay for that portion that they do not believe in. It can be listed as not covered and the individual can purchase the necessary insurance or pay out of pocket expenses. Again, only as a private business where the owners' religion factors in and what they pay for directly impacts their religious beliefs.

You are OK with removing the separation of Church and State?

Slippery slope here gentlemen.

Tomorrow all the Waltons convert to The Church of the First Born and suddenly they have to provide no healthcare coverage?

Healthcare should be a human right, not to be decided by your employer......

You also realize this leaves a huge door open for sharia.....

I am all for the separation of church and state. But I also believe that access to healthcare is a human right, one that shouldnt be infringed upon.... Once you have a person blocking you from a basic human right because of THEIR religion it becomes a freedom of religion (Or lack of) issue.

wanamingo said:
Slippery slope here gentlemen.

Tomorrow all the Waltons convert to The Church of the First Born and suddenly they have to provide no healthcare coverage?

Healthcare should be a human right, not to be decided by your employer......

You also realize this leaves a huge door open for sharia.....



I am not saying heathcare should be decided by your employer.....and not by the Gov. You should have the choice of what insurance you have.




JBB-SaDo said:
I am not saying heathcare should be decided by your employer.....and not by the Gov. You should have the choice of what insurance you have.


Unless your employer has a problem with it on religious grounds.... That choice is being removed because of someone elses BS.

Im all for deciding what healthcare you want to have, you dont have to get contraception if you dont want to. The decision should be yours not the gov or your employer.

Something like 98% of women will use birth control at some point in their lives, but only a few percent of men will need viagra. Why should that be covered but birth control isnt?

I have a family owned business so I should be able to use child labor. Also you cannot drink caffeinated beverages while at work as it is against my beliefs as it is the drug of the devil.

What are we the middle east or the United States of America? This kind of backwards thinking does no one any good.

JBB-SaDo said:
I am not saying heathcare should be decided by your employer.....and not by the Gov. You should have the choice of what insurance you have.


All the government is saying here is that all women should be given the option, while the employer says they should not be given the option.

wanamingo said:
Thanks for the copy pasta but that info is next to useless.

Why are they exempt? Whats with all of the asterisks? Who compiled the list? Why cant I find it anywhere else?


I put a link in there what do you want?

If you don't know the answers to your questions perhaps you should take the time to inform yourself before throwing 100% of your support behind an idea you know very little about.

That's just a suggestion though.

Oldmangamer_73 said:
I put a link in there what do you want?

If you don't know the answers to your questions perhaps you should take the time to inform yourself before throwing 100% of your support behind an idea you know very little about.

That's just a suggestion though.


Ive been informing myself :sol:  your info is just useless and most likely out of context. Maybe you should research your links before posting info in bulk, because your link is not the least bit helpful. Just a suggestion though. :kaola: 

Quote:
The Affordable Care Act is designed to provide Americans with affordable, high-quality coverage options – while ensuring that those who like their current coverage can keep it. Unfortunately, today, limited benefit plans, or “mini-med” plans are often the only type of insurance offered to some workers. In 2014, the Affordable Care Act will end mini-med plans when Americans will have better access to affordable, comprehensive health insurance plans that cannot use high deductibles or annual limits to limit benefits. In the meantime, the law requires insurers to phase out the use of annual dollar limits on benefits. In 2011, most plans can impose an annual limit of no less than $750,000.

Mini-med plans have lower limits than allowed under the Affordable Care Act. While mini-med plans do not provide security in the event of serious illness or accident, they are unfortunately the only option that some employers offer. In order to protect coverage for these workers, the Affordable Care Act allows these plans to apply for temporary waivers from rules restricting the size of annual limits to some group health plans and health insurance issuers.

Waivers only last for one year and are only available if the plan certifies that a waiver is necessary to prevent either a large increase in premiums or a significant decrease in access to coverage. In addition, enrollees must be informed that their plan does not meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act. No other provision of the Affordable Care Act is affected by these waivers: they only apply to the annual limit policy.

As of today, a total of 733 waivers have been granted for 2011. Key facts about annual limits waivers:

There was an increase in the number of applications received at the end of 2010 because December 1 was the final day to apply for a waiver for a plan or policy year that begins on January 1 – as many plans do. Over 500 waivers were granted in December. While the number of approved waivers increased by more than 200 percent, the total number of enrollees in plans receiving waivers has increased by only 48 percent since the previous posting.
Of all the waivers granted to date:
Employment-Based Coverage: The vast majority – 712 plans representing 97 percent of all waivers – were granted to health plans that are employment-related.
Self-Insured Employer Plans Applicants: Employer-based health plans received most of the waivers – 359.
Collectively-Bargained Employer-Based Plan Applicants: Most of the other health plans receiving waivers are multi-employer health funds created by a collective bargaining agreement between a union and two or more employers, pursuant to the Taft-Hartley Act. These “union plans” are employment based group health plans and operate for the sole benefit of workers. They tend to be larger than other typical group health plans because they cover multiple employers. There are also single-employer union plans that have received a waiver. In total, 182 collectively-bargained plans have received waivers.
Health Reimbursement Arrangements (HRAs): HRAs are employer-funded group health plans where employees are reimbursed tax-free for qualified medical expenses up to a maximum dollar amount for a coverage period. In total, HHS has approved 171 applications for waivers for HRAs.
Health Insurers: Sixteen waivers were granted to health insurers, which can apply for a waiver for multiple mini-med products sold to employers or individuals.
State Governments: Four waivers have gone to State governments. States may apply for a waiver of the restricted annual limits on behalf of issuers of state-mandated policies if state law required the policies to be offered by the issuers prior to September 23, 2010.

The number of enrollees in plans with annual limits waivers is 2.1 million, representing only about 1 percent of all Americans who have private health insurance today.

Improving Transparency

HHS periodically posts the list of the plans that have been granted waivers to ensure the public is aware of the waiver process and stakeholders understand how they are affected. Also, on December 9, 2010 HHS issued new rules requiring that health insurers offering mini-med plans must notify consumers in plain language that their plan offers extremely limited benefits and direct them to www.HealthCare.gov where they can get more information about other coverage options. The rules require health plans with waivers to tell consumers if their health care coverage is subject to an annual dollar limit lower than what is required under the law. This way, enrollees know when their coverage is limited.

Annual limits waivers are temporary. In 2014 annual dollar limits will be prohibited and mini-med plans will no longer be necessary.



http://web.archive.org/web/20110614192404/http://www.hh...

wanamingo said:
Thats not what the guy wants, he doesnt want to offer any form of birth control for any reason, the owner considers them abortion drugs.

I also find it interesting that right around obamacare time people suddenly start caring... Did you know that 28 states already covered contraceptives before obamacare? There was no problem before. Heres a good example of a religious institution that had been offering birth control as a part of its health care.

There are already religious exceptions, its not like anyone is going to burn in hellfire because a cashier at a hobby lobby is is using contraceptive. And even if you do go to hell for practicing safe sex thats no god I want a part of.

Hes a loony who is forcing morality on his employees.
wanamingo said:
So if the owners of a company are Jehovah Witnesses they can remove a blood transfusion from your healthcare because it doesn't match their beliefs?
wanamingo said:
So what you are saying now is that before a company hires a person they have to tell them what the owners religious beliefs are and if those beliefs interfere with your beliefs you have to seek work elsewhere?

And freedom of religion doesn't extend into the workplace.... Thats an awfully slippery slope you are on.
wanamingo said:
Slippery slope here gentlemen.

Tomorrow all the Waltons convert to The Church of the First Born and suddenly they have to provide no healthcare coverage?

Healthcare should be a human right, not to be decided by your employer......

You also realize this leaves a huge door open for sharia.....
wanamingo said:
I am all for the separation of church and state. But I also believe that access to healthcare is a human right, one that shouldnt be infringed upon.... Once you have a person blocking you from a basic human right because of THEIR religion it becomes a freedom of religion (Or lack of) issue.
johnsonma said:
I have a family owned business so I should be able to use child labor. Also you cannot drink caffeinated beverages while at work as it is against my beliefs as it is the drug of the devil.

What are we the middle east or the United States of America? This kind of backwards thinking does no one any good.
johnsonma said:
All the government is saying here is that all women should be given the option, while the employer says they should not be given the option.
Wow! Wow-o-wow! There is so much wrong with these above statements, I just dunno where to begin; at will employment, the history of private enterprise, the history of american business, entrepreneurship, intellectual property, private property, discrimination laws, religious freedom, social democracy, the Federalist Papers, the United States Constitution, SCOTUS rulings, collective bargaining agreements versus employment contracts, the difference between a natural rights and human rights and societal benefits...this is just off the top of my head...

It is obvious that the concepts of personal responsibility, citizenship, State sovereignty, and republicanism are being shoved aside in favor of bigger governmental, centralized authority, entitlements, and social democracy.

wanamingo said:
Ive been informing myself :sol: 
IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN TIME! Because it has been painfully obvious that you have very little background knowledge or understanding of the positions you support.

wanamingo said:
I am all for the separation of church and state. But I also believe that access to healthcare is a human right, one that shouldnt be infringed upon.... Once you have a person blocking you from a basic human right because of THEIR religion it becomes a freedom of religion (Or lack of) issue.


Health Care is not a right. Let's make that very clear.

I define a right as anything you can do for yourself without impacting, impeding, or causing another person to act. You have a right to self defense - you do not need someone else to do something for you in order to defend yourself. You have the right to free speech, you can talk all day long and no one has to do anything for you to do that.

Health care requires a trained professional to provide services to you. This is not a right. Under ObamaCare, they are being forced into providing services to you under the guise of being paid for it. You have the right to remain silent under your Miranda Rights. What are the rights of a doctor?

You know what? I'm all for ObamaCare when a Bill of Rights for Doctors comes about providing them with protection from being forced into providing their service to others.

Why are we forcing them to provide their skillset to people? That is unfair - you can say they're being paid. I say they're being overworked.

Again, Health Care is not a Right. You can call it what you will, but it is anything but a Right.

wanamingo said:
Unless your employer has a problem with it on religious grounds.... That choice is being removed because of someone elses BS.

Im all for deciding what healthcare you want to have, you dont have to get contraception if you dont want to. The decision should be yours not the gov or your employer.

Something like 98% of women will use birth control at some point in their lives, but only a few percent of men will need viagra. Why should that be covered but birth control isnt?


And everyone has the right and ability to go out and buy their own healthcare outside of a business sponsored plan too.

lol I think affordable access to healthcare is a right and so do the other people who voted for the current president. Sorry if you guys believe otherwise(Does this apply to emergency rooms?).

Its not like FREE!! Free Abortions and abortion pills for ALL!!!!

It makes no sense that a company can force a person into what kind of healthcare the employer deems fit, it logically does not make any sense.

According to Chunkys logic (Im not sure that the right word....) my boss can refuse to cover my chemo treatments because he does believe in "Radiation" or he doesnt believe that God accepts "Blood Transfusions" and I have to deal with it because the people at the top of the ladder, whom I have never met, decide what medical treatments are for me.

Its taking the choice out of you hands and putting into the person who gives you a paycheck. Not to mention all of the possibly issues we have with coercion and forced silence because your livelihood is on the line.

chunkymonster said:
Wow! Wow-o-wow! There is so much wrong with these above statements, I just dunno where to begin; at will employment, the history of private enterprise, the history of american business, entrepreneurship, intellectual property, private property, discrimination laws, religious freedom, social democracy, the Federalist Papers, the United States Constitution, SCOTUS rulings, collective bargaining agreements versus employment contracts, the difference between a natural rights and human rights and societal benefits...this is just off the top of my head...



Condescending note aside..... You make no sense....

WTF does private property have to do with your employer deciding what medication you need, or discrimination laws for that matter? Just because you list off a bunch of words like social democracy doesn't mean you have a point lol. More rhetoric less information.

Why does a business even need to provide health care? Why not make it that everyone has to buy their own plan outside of a business? Would that not simply fix the issue?

Healthcare is expensive because the equipment, technology, training, medicine, and liability are all expensive.

Under ObamaCare, doctors should have all liability removed from them for being forced into providing their skillset to others.

We do not have enough healthcare professionals in this country to provide healthcare to all the people. That is an issue - are we going to start forcing people into medicine and being doctors to meet that demand?

riser said:
Health Care is not a right. Let's make that very clear.

I define a right as anything you can do for yourself without impacting, impeding, or causing another person to act. You have a right to self defense - you do not need someone else to do something for you in order to defend yourself. You have the right to free speech, you can talk all day long and no one has to do anything for you to do that.



Do you consider access to medication a right? I do. Do you consider being able to decide what is best for yourself a right? I do. Do you think that having an employer decide what is right for you against what you believe right? I dont.


riser said:


Health care requires a trained professional to provide services to you. This is not a right. Under ObamaCare, they are being forced into providing services to you under the guise of being paid for it. You have the right to remain silent under your Miranda Rights. What are the rights of a doctor?

You know what? I'm all for ObamaCare when a Bill of Rights for Doctors comes about providing them with protection from being forced into providing their service to others.

Why are we forcing them to provide their skillset to people? That is unfair - you can say they're being paid. I say they're being overworked.

Again, Health Care is not a Right. You can call it what you will, but it is anything but a Right.


Doctors are a part of the healthcare plan of course, but there are many many other ways the system works besides on the backs of doctors. No one forced anyone to become a doctor, no one is forcing a doctor to help anyone.


Besides its at will employment if the doctor doesnt want to work he doesn't have to, right Chunky?




You have to remember that sometime in the past, the American people were convinced, (through a very clever propaganda campaign) that healthcare should be part of employer compensation. (part of your pay/salary).

Your employer is paying part of your premium and in my case they are paying a large chunk of my insurance premium. You are not "forced" to accept your employer's healthcare offering. You can opt out if you want to and find insurance on your own.

Also realize that many of the healthcare coverage options you are "forced" to pay for if you accept the offering, are there by State and Federal mandates on health insurance coverage providers. Not your employer forcing it on you.

Get rid of the government mandates, make insurance coverage portable, allow the purchase of insurance across state lines to make it more competitive, bringing prices down. And above all, tort reform. Just these few things would have gone a long way towards fixing the problem.

Right now people have more control over their car insurance than they do over their health insurance. Does that make sense to anybody?

chunkymonster said:
Wow! Wow-o-wow! There is so much wrong with these above statements, I just dunno where to begin; at will employment, the history of private enterprise, the history of american business, entrepreneurship, intellectual property, private property, discrimination laws, religious freedom, social democracy, the Federalist Papers, the United States Constitution, SCOTUS rulings, collective bargaining agreements versus employment contracts, the difference between a natural rights and human rights and societal benefits...this is just off the top of my head...

It is obvious that the concepts of personal responsibility, citizenship, State sovereignty, and republicanism are being shoved aside in favor of bigger governmental, centralized authority, entitlements, and social democracy.

IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN TIME! Because it has been painfully obvious that you have very little background knowledge or understanding of the positions you support.


Its amazing how you just spout out garbled crap and then insult someone who actually posts logical thoughts.

Quote:
Do you consider access to medication a right? I do. Do you consider being able to decide what is best for yourself a right? I do. Do you think that having an employer decide what is right for you against what you believe right? I dont.


I do not consider medication a right. It is a privilege. It is something someone else has to do in order for me to have. I am unable to do it myself and thus it is not a Right. I can not imagine a "Right" is something that someone else has to do in order for me to have. What if all companies making medicine stopped? We all have the Right to something that isn't available. What then? That's how I define what a Right is. Something you can do for yourself that does not require anyone else to act upon.

We are more than welcome to decide what is best for us. That is our Right. How we go about it is our own Right. I agree with you there. When it comes to a doctor having to diagnose me, that is not my right. That is a privilege provided by that doctor to me. I am unable to do it myself without someone else acting.

You pretty much have a right to do anything you want for yourself, by yourself. When you force someone else to provide healthcare, then force doctors to provide healthcare to you, that is not a right. That is threating.

What if the doctor doesn't want to provide your "right" to you? You can not do without the doctor, therefore it can not be considered a right.

You have the Right to get HealthCare Insurance if you want it for yourself. You do not have the Right to for someone into providing health care services to you.

See that? Health care.. service. Health care is not a right. It is a service just like fast food. For a nominal fee, you will be provided with a service. This is not a right.

Bill of Rights:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_...

Please point out in those Rights where someone else must provide a non-government service to an individual.

In fact, I would even argue that if Health Care is considered a Right, the option of having someone in servitude as a Slave is a Right as well. Simply put, you are forcing someone to perform a service to you with some form of compensation, regardless is said person wants to perform that service or not.

Article 25 of the universal declaration of human rights- Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

So yes access to medicine and healthcare is considered a human right.

I dont follow your meaning behind "Forcing doctors to provide healthcare" the insurance company pays for the procedure no one is making doctors perform abortions against their will. I dont think anyone is advocating letting the homeless into private practices and making the doctors diagnose them.


Im also not sure I follow your logic, clean water isnt a right because someone else does the job of cleaning it and making sure no one is putting chemicals in it....

wanamingo said:
Condescending note aside..... You make no sense....

WTF does private property have to do with your employer deciding what medication you need, or discrimination laws for that matter? Just because you list off a bunch of words like social democracy doesn't mean you have a point lol. More rhetoric less information.
johnsonma said:
Its amazing how you just spout out garbled crap and then insult someone who actually posts logical thoughts.
There is not enough room in these forums for me to explain to you the relationship between discrimination laws and freedom of religion in the workplace. There is not enough room for me to explain to you private enterprise and employer/employee relationships. There is not enough room for me to explain to you the very things that you should have learned about personal responsibility and citizenship as it exists within the context of our republican form of government.

If anything you two only solidify my opinion that you have been taught what to think rather than how to think, that you believe that the improbable is practical, and that exchanging security provides you more liberty.

Call me condescending, say that I make no sense, say that my posts are garbled crap, I don't care...but for the love of all that is left of this republic, at least taking the time to research my garbled crap and apply the principles within the context of a market economy and our republic form of government.

wanamingo said:
Article 25 of the universal declaration of human rights- Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
So you are advocating that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights should usurp the United States Constitution as the supreme law of our country?

-100 points for using the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to support any argument that usurps national sovereignty.

You do realize that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights itself is not a document that is legally binding. Countries that have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights cannot be held legally responsible if they do not follow through on providing those rights. The Declaration is a standard for countries to follow. It expresses the ideals that the signing countries hold for human rights.

chunkymonster said:
There is not enough room in these forums for me to explain to you the relationship between discrimination laws and freedom of religion in the workplace. There is not enough room for me to explain to you private enterprise and employer/employee relationships. There is not enough room for me to explain to you the very things that you should have learned about personal responsibility and citizenship as it exists within the context of our republican form of government.

If anything you two only solidify my opinion that you have been taught what to think rather than how to think, that you believe that the improbable is practical, and that exchanging security provides you more liberty.

Call me condescending, say that I make no sense, say that my posts are garbled crap, I don't care...but for the love of all that is left of this republic, at least taking the time to research my garbled crap and apply the principles within the context of a market economy and our republic form of government.



Great way to hide behind your rhetoric, I wish I could just say: I think I know what Im talking about, social democracy, liberty, justice, I dont have time to explain, Democracy, you can say what you want, freedom of religion, discrimination, human rights, Ive read all the books on Becks reading list, private property, intellectual property, churches, tits, explosions, monster trucks......

Im pretty sure the founding fathers would think you guys are insane. Who made the first hospital and who funded it? They were murder factories, not so much anymore.
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