Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Help me find a new monitor!

Last response: in Systems
Share
March 14, 2006 7:26:01 PM

Man this upgrade bug has bitten me badly this time. Contrary to telling myself "no monitor" this time, I find myself looking perhaps to replace my aging 19" CRT.

I have purposefully been avoiding LCD's so far because of all the complaints of ghosting that always come from people that do gaming.

First of all, is it worth getting an LCD now? Or should I continue my waiting?

I'll admit I'm starting to lean into the LCD camp especially since my desk size at home has shrank recently, and the huge CRT is taking up valuable realistate. But one thing is certain, I don't want to see ANY ghosting AT ALL. I want it to look as sharp as the CRT's I've been used to for so long now.

Next, depending on which you reccomend, LCD or CRT, do you have any suggestions?

Thanks everyone.



EDIT: I don't have a price range yet, mostly because I don't know what price range to expect. Obviously the cheaper the better, but as I said I want NO GHOSTING and decent quality.

More about : find monitor

March 14, 2006 7:41:15 PM

Ghosting was about 5 years ago. Seriously, if that's the reason why you have been avoiding them, your wait is over.

Of course the best thing you can do to put your mind at ease is play a DVD on someone's computer with an LCD monitor. That should answer all your questions.

LCDs don't typically have the same refresh rate as CRTs. However the refresh rate is much higher than what your eyes can perceive anyhow, so that point is moot. Also, since LCDs use TFT technology, in between refreshing images, the pixel doesn't fade, it just changes value when the next image comes along. As a result, even at lower refresh rates, there is NO flicker whatsoever, quite unlike CRTs.

From what I've noticed, LCDs have a much brighter, vivid looking image over CRTs. Going from CRT to LCD is like the difference in an image before and after photoshop.

Because of the lack of flicker and more vivid images on an LCD, I won't ever go back to CRT. Just my opinion.
March 14, 2006 8:28:00 PM

lcds do not have a refresh, despite any reported number in your comp settings. The pixels are constant on or off w/ no need to refresh the scan rate as in a crt. That is why reading text and other fine work is easier on the eyes on an lcd.

crts have smaller dot pitch typically. (LCDs are around .29) This is only an issue when looking at it closely. I still use a 19" trinitron (.23 dot pitch) and have yet to see an lcd beat it. However, sony has stopped making their trinitrons so that is moot.

Ghosting is not gone. read any lcd review here at toms or another reputable site and you can see that it is still there. Some ppl are more sensitive to it that others. If you are sensitive to lower refresh rates on a crt then you might still see ghosting on many lcds. I cannot stand my refresh to be under 80hz on a crt and regularly run @ 85 or else i get bad headaches and my eyes freak out. I notice streaking (ghosting) on fast moving games (like fps games) on most lcds. If you run your current crt that high then you may see it, if you run @ 75 or lower w/ no issues then you will prb love lcds. Slower moving games like WoW and Morrowind are prb ok w/ min. ghosts.

lcds also do not (always) render the same number of colors on the low end of price spectrum. Can result in more saturated primary colors with less subtle definition, but I have only seen this on really cheap ones of late. (Around $200(us) for 19")

lcds are stuck at one native resolution. they can interpolate lower resolutions but no matter how good the algorithm is, it never looks good to me... kinda blurry, not real sharp on lower res images. They cannot display res higher than their native at all. crts can change to any res within their given limit w/ no reduction in qual. Make sure if you get an lcd for gaming that your system can display the games at its native res or you will not be happy.

after all that, reality check:
crts are dinosaurs, lcds are where the manufacturers are going and Holden is right that current tech has far surpassed past lcd faults. Most 19" monitors around $400 (us) are pretty good. Personally I will be getting one soon to replace the aforementioned trinitron for the same reasons you are... space.

I have been shopping around at stores where I can actually look at them and see for myself because I notice stuff that others do not. (not trying to sound snooty here, it sucks that I cant just deal with the cheaper stuff) I am leaning towards LG or Samsung... Toms here has reviewed some good ones, and I put alot of stock in their tests as they are pretty harsh. Then again, I am also very picky.

Hope that helps.
Related resources
March 14, 2006 8:54:03 PM

I am also taking the plunge and finally will get an LCD

Ghosting isn't so much an issue for me, as I don't play action games, I am more worried about working on Photos - CRT is easy, once calibrated, the picture on the screen is looks the same as the picture in the printer. But I am having a dreadful feeling that won't be so easy with LCD anymore ? I am mostly worried about brightness and exposure correction (my camera tends to underexpose and it can be hard to correct after, if the monitor isn't calibrated). Has anyone got any experience ? Does anyone still print pictures ?

Cheers
Mad
March 14, 2006 9:00:23 PM

madpiano, please don't highjack the thread.


As for resolutions and refresh rates, I normally run 1280 x 1024 @ 75Hz because that is the best my monitor will currently do. I do see a slight flicker and prefer the smoothness of 85Hz though.

Stranger, you say it's expensive but worth it. First, how much is expensive? And in your opinion how is it worth it? And what ms refresh LCD do you have?
March 14, 2006 9:04:03 PM

I recently got the Viewsonic VX924. It has one of the lowest rated response times of any 19 inch monitor that I know of and it looks great. I watch DVD's and play games and have not noticed any kind of ghosting or other annoying characteristics. I like it much better than any previous CRT monitors I've used. It looks so much more vivid.

Viewsonic VX924
March 14, 2006 9:11:37 PM

Let us know what you decide on..

Im heading for the same boat as well. my 22" crt is big, heavy and making noises like it wants to fail.

Im one of those unlucky ones who are sensitive to low refresh rates on a CRT - anything below 75 and I get eyestrain. I use a LCD at work and while it works pretty good - I dont play games or watch DVDs on it either. I can see ghosting when I move my mouse across the screen or scroll webpages quickly but most of the time is spent staring at text.

If you have the cash, a lot of reviews point to the Dell 2045fpw. Viewsonic also makes good monitors. But the best advice is to goto a store and look at whats there.
March 15, 2006 1:13:30 PM

Okay I've decided that I am going to give in to myself and get a monitor. I've also decided that I will go for an LCD this time.


Can I get some suggestions? I'm willing to pay up to $500 for a good one. Your help is GREATLY appreceated, thanks!
March 15, 2006 1:37:21 PM

Quote:
ah what a pity you are not ignorant...


I truly wish I was man, I really do... I have issues w/ poor quality DVDs too, I notice all kinds of flaws that my friends do not. (they think I am on crack most of the time :lol:  )
March 15, 2006 1:41:15 PM

I agree w/ kittle on going down and looking. Always the best bet so you can see what it performs like. But toms is also a good place to see what the performance:p rice ratio is and where the ones you see at the store stack up.
March 15, 2006 2:08:00 PM

I have a Hyundai L90D+. It's about $300 but it's beautiful in D3 and NFS Underground. No ghosting. It even looks good at 1024 while the native res is 1280.
March 15, 2006 2:08:54 PM

Quote:
Okay I've decided that I am going to give in to myself and get a monitor. I've also decided that I will go for an LCD this time.


Can I get some suggestions? I'm willing to pay up to $500 for a good one. Your help is GREATLY appreceated, thanks!



I'd add $100 or so bucks and get two Hyundais. L90D+ is a great 19" LCD.
March 15, 2006 3:13:42 PM

I have a couple of models for you to look at, the Viewsonic 2012 is a widescreen LCD I paid $400 dollars for it at Costco, you can buy it oneline from them even if you arent a member. It has an 8ms response time and 20.1" wide screen with native resolution of 1680x1050 I play City of heroes/villains, BF2 , Quake 4, FEAR, etc... have no complaints! I just recently ordered a Dell 24" monitor for $799 on thier website, currently the response time is around 12 ms , we will see, I currently use a Syntax Olevia 27" LCD TV for my main computer it has a 12 ms response time I have had it for over a year and a half . The only time I have seen a game remotley ghost and I mean very minimally , so little that you might not notice is when I play Halflife 2 or Counterstrike:CS

Good luck with your upgrade I hope you enjoy your new monitor!

P.S. LCD's arent prone to burn in like your CRT either ;) 
March 15, 2006 3:34:30 PM

I have actually seen an iMac lcd w/ the login box burned into it... looked kinda funny but only could see it on white screens. so while they may hold up better, they still can burn in like anything else.
March 15, 2006 5:11:04 PM

Just thought I'd do the math for everyone about the response times.

12ms equates to a maximum of 83.3 frames per second.
8ms equates to a maximum of 125 frames per second.

Televisions run at 30 frames per second (interpolated to appear as 60 fps). Movies at theaters are 24 frames per second.

Also, somebody mentioned that CRTs are not stuck at a "native" resolution. I'll remind you that they ARE stuck with whatever number of pixels that they came from the factory with. This does not change. So their resolution can not go higher than its number of pixels. Just like an LCD! CRTs may be better at tricking you into thinking you are seeing a higher resolution, but still has a limit. Best thing to do: Buy an LCD with the highest resolution you can afford.

So the low-end LCDs can still outperform some of the common media that you may be watching. Though I still stick by my original idea:
try before you buy! Many places like CompUSA or Best Buy will have a machine with an LCD running a game that you can try. It's a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter. Or, if you can't perceive any ghosting, then it don't matter.
March 15, 2006 5:28:07 PM

Quote:

Also, somebody mentioned that CRTs are not stuck at a "native" resolution. I'll remind you that they ARE stuck with whatever number of pixels that they came from the factory with. This does not change. So their resolution can not go higher than its number of pixels. Just like an LCD! CRTs may be better at tricking you into thinking you are seeing a higher resolution, but still has a limit...


actually I said that LCDs are stuck in that they have to interpolate a lower resolution up to their native one, which results in a blurry, not-sharp picture. I then said that crts can go down (from their limit was implied) to lower resolutions with NO loss in quality.

explanation:
(trying to keep it easy to understand... not sure if i am capable)

interpolation (in a simplified form) is taking an image of pixels and increasing the # of pixels to display on higher res digital formats. This means for example that in between 2 pixels it must create another one so that the image can have enough to "fill" the monitor. In other words it must "guess" or interpolate what that new pixel is. This results in imprecise picture renders. (some are better than others, but all are inferior to native resolutions)

crts are analog. and an analog image does not suffer the discrete pixel problems that digital does. To increase or decrease a resolution (provided you do not go out of scan range for the crt... hence your aforementioned limit) it is done on the digital side in the video card and then converted to analog. once in analog, it can be upscaled or downscaled with nothing lost because all the scan lines are continuous vectors that do not suffer from scaling like discrete pixels do.

This just the inherent flaw with all digital tech. It is a struggle w/ music, imagry, even A.I. deals with this "flaw".

I am not saying lcds suck, far from it... current lcd tech is very good. I am just pointing out some issues that the originator of this thread might have had prbs with. He expressed similar preferences to myself and I was helping him to make an educated decision. Nothing more. I think he has made it already, and is getting an lcd which is good.
March 15, 2006 5:32:29 PM

Believe me I will not even think of buying online before I've seen it in a store. I went to Fry's yesterday where they had some on display, but when I said, "Okay, so can you show me what it can do? So me some movement rather than just a desktop screen?" He said something like "No sorry, but you can see how it shows..." blah blah blah.

I won't buy without seeing it first, but what I want now are some ones that I should go look at. Below are the requirments I'm looking for.

$500 or less price tag, less than 8ms response time, and 85Hz at it's native resolution.

Obviously this is for gaming, mostly FPS' and a few RPG's here and there.

So, do you think it can be done using my above requirements? Or do you think I will need to modify them a bit? Please give me suggestions! Thanks!


EDIT: Oh yeah, and preferably at least a 19" too.
March 15, 2006 5:58:57 PM

Quote:
Believe me I will not even think of buying online before I've seen it in a store. I went to Fry's yesterday where they had some on display, but when I said, "Okay, so can you show me what it can do? So me some movement rather than just a desktop screen?" He said something like "No sorry, but you can see how it shows..." blah blah blah.


Yeah, you can't rely on Fry's employees to know anything. You're doing the right thing by doing research before you visit Fry's. They'll tell you anything to make the sale. Nobody on this site has any real interest in what you do with your money, so we're more trustworthy by default.

For sojrner, thanks for that explanation. You're quite right.

Good luck with whatever you choose Lan, as long as you choose an LCD!
March 15, 2006 6:12:53 PM

right on groin, we are more trustworthy that anyone trying to sell you something. so lan, along with buying yourself one I "advise" that you should buy one for me. That way you will ensure that future advising from someone like, say, myself will be that much more trustworthy... ;) 

...but seriously, good luck on the search.

Edit:
sorry lan, i did not even notice your question until now... Yes, you can hit your mark w/ that $500 i would think. And if you pick some of the higher rated ones on toms reviews you wont go wrong. While toms has not rated the new Dell monitors that are 8ms yet, I have heard good things from others about them so that may be an option as well. a 19" there is under $400!
March 15, 2006 6:22:41 PM

Quote:
Believe me I will not even think of buying online before I've seen it in a store. I went to Fry's yesterday where they had some on display, but when I said, "Okay, so can you show me what it can do? So me some movement rather than just a desktop screen?" He said something like "No sorry, but you can see how it shows..." blah blah blah.

I won't buy without seeing it first, but what I want now are some ones that I should go look at. Below are the requirments I'm looking for.

$500 or less price tag, less than 8ms response time, and 85Hz at it's native resolution.

Obviously this is for gaming, mostly FPS' and a few RPG's here and there.

So, do you think it can be done using my above requirements? Or do you think I will need to modify them a bit? Please give me suggestions! Thanks!


EDIT: Oh yeah, and preferably at least a 19" too.



So you are obviously on the west coast if you know Fry's , If they won't help you try PCCLUB.com they have stores all up and down the west coast, they have pc's set up with games and LCD's that they will let you play to try out! Or if you live in the Seattle/Tacoma area come over to my house and try mine out I have 3 LCD's and 1 Plasma LOL :wink:
March 15, 2006 6:30:04 PM

you can try best buy too, I have had good experience w/ them letting me try stuff out. (even if i end up not buying it from themm... ;)  )

I should point out about the dells that i mentioned earlier... you obviously cant try them out. Costco does sell them online but I am not sure if they have any in their stores... maybe find someone that has one? they are pretty new so that may be hard... anyone here have one? (the 8ms ultrasharps like the 1907fp, not the 1905fp)
March 15, 2006 6:41:31 PM

I was told by Dell people that you can test out their products at their Direct Store:
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/...

Also, the 2005FPW (20.1" widescreen) is currently on sale for $400. I'm sorely tempted to buy one, but I don't really need it so meh. I think the sale ends tonight.

Here's Anandtech's review of it:
http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2400

Oh yeah, if you're going to Fry's, ask them if you can hook up the monitor on the showroom to test it for dead pixels. Plus you'd wanna check to see if its broken from being returned 10x... or more. :p 
March 15, 2006 6:49:26 PM

ya, i was just wondering about their xx07 newer ones that are 8ms...
March 15, 2006 6:58:35 PM

really? didn't know that... if that is the case then ya, maybe wait lan...
March 15, 2006 7:02:52 PM

Do you know a release date or estimated time frame when they will be released? Now that I've decided to take the plunge and get an LCD I don't want to wait long if I don't have to.
March 15, 2006 7:21:33 PM

Viewsonic Vx922 has 2ms response both gray to gray and black to white. It is the recomended unit that comes with an Alienware FX60 gaming computer. I found it @ ZipZoomFly for $362.21. I have also considered the 24" Dell that most poster seem to have but that's $350 above you limit.
March 15, 2006 7:35:18 PM

oooo maybe I can send my 24 back and upgrade to the new model if its within refund timeframe, thanks for the heads up!
March 15, 2006 8:21:54 PM

I don't know if I should be or not, but I am starting to consider that 2005fpw Dell for $400. It is widescreen, and looks decent. But it is 12ms response time right?

Damn this is fustrating. :cry:  That Dell would be great if I knew that I wouldn't see any ghosting. I could put up with only a 75Hz refresh rate since it's what I use now out of nessesity, but not the ghosting based on what I've heard of it.

*sigh* Maybe I'm just excited/antsy for my new monitor. Ideas?
March 15, 2006 8:43:38 PM

well, like i said Dell has the new xx07 models that are 8ms... not sure if they have the widescreen ones though.
March 15, 2006 9:07:41 PM

Quote:
I don't know if I should be or not, but I am starting to consider that 2005fpw Dell for $400. It is widescreen, and looks decent. But it is 12ms response time right?

Damn this is fustrating. :cry:  That Dell would be great if I knew that I wouldn't see any ghosting. I could put up with only a 75Hz refresh rate since it's what I use now out of nessesity, but not the ghosting based on what I've heard of it.

*sigh* Maybe I'm just excited/antsy for my new monitor. Ideas?

The **07 series will be bound to be much more expensive than $400, I would bet. The 07's they have listed are the 30" widescreens, but they start like like mid $2k range! ouch!

If you read Anandtech's review on that 2005FPW that I linked earlier, they don't have a big problem w/ ghosting. Note that they have a caveat for analog D-SUB signals though.
March 15, 2006 9:11:50 PM

the 19" '07 is under 400... actually same price as the '05...

dell 19"

of course this is not a widescreen, but it is a nice lookin monitor for that price.
March 15, 2006 9:29:43 PM

Quote:
the 19" '07 is under 400... actually same price as the '05...

dell 19"

of course this is not a widescreen, but it is a nice lookin monitor for that price.

Yeah, that's true, but for the same $ you can get a 20"!!! hehe :D  Besides, pure response time isn't everything. You might be hard pressed to see the difference between 8ms and 12ms and 16ms. It depends on other factors besides that as well.

Lan, if you really want to get a handle on the ghosting, you can do a search for the 2005FPW in the Hardware forums and the CE (consumer electronics) forums here. There seems to be alot of threads on it.
For the most part, most people like them.
!