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Real Aviation Question re Contrails

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Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

How come that on some days you can see jets crossing the skies at 30,000+
feet without any contrails?

Carrigman
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

carrigman wrote:
> How come that on some days you can see jets crossing the skies at
> 30,000+ feet without any contrails?
>
> Carrigman

Contrails are ice crystals from water droplets caused by the wing vortices
as a rule. If the temperature and dewpoint is such that no water/ice forms,
then presumably no contrails. Someone more meteorologically educated may
help further...my met education is at least 50 years out of date!


--
Quilljar
see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

>For a contrail to remain intact for a long period of time, the air must
>have a high relative humidity in the presence of relatively light winds.

Another interesting tidbit: if you see contrails all over the sky, you
can tell your friends that's it's going to rain in the next 48 hours.
You'll almost always be right because the humidity so high up is often
a sign of an incoming warm front.

This was considered restricted information during WW-II.

Kev
Related resources
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D 7ike0$9o7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Contrails are ice crystals from water droplets caused by the wing vortices
> as a rule. If the temperature and dewpoint is such that no water/ice
forms,
> then presumably no contrails. Someone more meteorologically educated may
> help further...my met education is at least 50 years out of date!

I work at a TV station and could verify it with our meteorologist, but I
don't think it is from the votices of the wintips, but the temperature and
humidity do have a lot to do with it as you say.

All combustion engines product moiture in their hot exhaust that is more
visible as steam when the temperature drops. An example is a car in the
winter vs a car in the summer. You see steam and water dripping in the
winter,..but in the summer you usually only see water dripping but no steam.

The contrails are produced by heated moisture in the jet engines hot exhaust
as it is exposed to the very low temperatures of the air at the high
altitude as it trails out behind the plane. The jets leave greater
contrails in the winter than they do in the summer but they will always
produce something in any case unless they just aren't high enough at the
time you see them.

--

Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D 7ike0$9o7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> carrigman wrote:
>> How come that on some days you can see jets crossing the skies at
>> 30,000+ feet without any contrails?
>>
>> Carrigman
>
> Contrails are ice crystals from water droplets caused by the wing vortices
> as a rule. If the temperature and dewpoint is such that no water/ice
> forms, then presumably no contrails. Someone more meteorologically
> educated may help further...my met education is at least 50 years out of
> date!
>
>
> --
> Quilljar

It's NOT the wing tip vortices, it's the exhaust of the engines...
"Contrails form through the injection of water vapor into the atmosphere by
exhaust fumes from a jet engine. If the surrounding air is cold enough, a
state of saturation is attained and ice crystals develop, producing a
contrail.

If the air in which the contrail develops has a low relative humidity, the
cloud particles will quickly evaporate. Even in the presence of higher
relative humidities, upper-level winds can spread a contrail apart to
produce a horizontal sheet-like cloud. For a contrail to remain in tact for
a long period of time, the air must have a high relative humidity in the
presence of relatively light winds. "

From:

http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/cldtyp/oth/cntrl.rxml

Jay B

PS...Back in WWII, meterologists would try to predict at what FL contrails
would form and the pilots would try to avoid that altitude so long streaming
contrails would not form behind the bomber formations.
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Thanks! I had indeed forgotten all that :-)
Can wingtip vortices sometimes form contrails as well? Or is it just when an
aerobatic maneuvre lowers that air pressure?

Quilljar
see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 2:12:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Phillip Windell" <@.> wrote in news:119pm5qo2rbau0e@corp.supernews.com:

> "Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D 7ike0$9o7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Contrails are ice crystals from water droplets caused by the wing
>> vortices as a rule. If the temperature and dewpoint is such that no
>> water/ice
> forms,
>> then presumably no contrails. Someone more meteorologically educated
>> may help further...my met education is at least 50 years out of date!
>
> I work at a TV station and could verify it with our meteorologist, but
> I don't think it is from the votices of the wintips, but the
> temperature and humidity do have a lot to do with it as you say.
>
> All combustion engines product moiture in their hot exhaust that is
> more visible as steam when the temperature drops. An example is a car
> in the winter vs a car in the summer. You see steam and water dripping
> in the winter,..but in the summer you usually only see water dripping
> but no steam.
>
> The contrails are produced by heated moisture in the jet engines hot
> exhaust as it is exposed to the very low temperatures of the air at
> the high altitude as it trails out behind the plane. The jets leave
> greater contrails in the winter than they do in the summer but they
> will always produce something in any case unless they just aren't high
> enough at the time you see them.
>

""Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]""

M V P ??

Hummmm musta missed yer nomination and eventual win. Congrats...uh for
what sport again?????
--
e v e n S k y

Athlon 266Ghz
1 G Ram
GeForce FX5900XT
160G H-D
80G H-D
WXP, FS9
CH Products Yoke and Rud Ped's
June 1, 2005 1:15:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dear Quilljar,

For some reason I pictured you as being a young cub!!
Strange how the mind works across the internet

Regards

Chris


"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D 7ike0$9o7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> carrigman wrote:
>> How come that on some days you can see jets crossing the skies at
>> 30,000+ feet without any contrails?
>>
>> Carrigman
>
> Contrails are ice crystals from water droplets caused by the wing vortices
> as a rule. If the temperature and dewpoint is such that no water/ice
> forms, then presumably no contrails. Someone more meteorologically
> educated may help further...my met education is at least 50 years out of
> date!
>
>
> --
> Quilljar
> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
> Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>
>
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 1:24:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Chris wrote:
> Dear Quilljar,
>
> For some reason I pictured you as being a young cub!!
> Strange how the mind works across the internet
>
> Regards
>
> Chris


Dear Chris,
You have definitely made my day. You are my friend for life, which will
probably not be long ,as I may reach 71 this year and have just been
dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia. :-)
Actually, the prognosis for this disease is not bad at all. My consultant
told me that if he had to have cancer this was the one he would choose :-)
My wife. also 70, has had two melanoma ops, so we are both grateful for
all the flagdays around the world!

Cheers,

Quilljar
see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
June 1, 2005 3:59:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar

So sorry to hear about your ill health and I hope things work out for the
better. Glad I made your day.
Its good to have some elders who are as technical minded as you. Have had a
look at your website and
that is some set-up you have with 3 monitors and a lap top - a REAL
enthusiast!!

I have to ask, is your on line name named after the term 'Quilling' or has
the flight sim world named this term
after you?

All the best

Chris

"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D 7jusq$kn2$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Chris wrote:
>> Dear Quilljar,
>>
>> For some reason I pictured you as being a young cub!!
>> Strange how the mind works across the internet
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Chris
>
>
> Dear Chris,
> You have definitely made my day. You are my friend for life, which will
> probably not be long ,as I may reach 71 this year and have just been
> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia. :-)
> Actually, the prognosis for this disease is not bad at all. My consultant
> told me that if he had to have cancer this was the one he would choose :-)
> My wife. also 70, has had two melanoma ops, so we are both grateful for
> all the flagdays around the world!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Quilljar
> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
> Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>
>
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 5:01:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Chris,
I am delighted to say that the term 'quilling' is entirely named after the
unprofessional and uncouth way in which I use the sim! That is, slewing and
ignoring ATC and never making any sort of flight plan. I frequently change
planes in midair too :-) Life is too short. It makes for a balance against
those keen types who like to fly by the rules in big iron.

Thanks for your kind words again.
I spend my time writing novels that no-one will publish, and downloading
more and more scenery for FS9. I am so impressed with the sim as a 3D atlas
of the world. My wishlist for the next issue is all built around making the
scenery of the whole world more accurate.

--
Quilljar
see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
June 1, 2005 6:27:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

FS has taught me more about the world than geography ever did years ago at
school for O'Levels.

I'm the same with flying, I pick a country then just fly around looking at
anything remotely interesting.

I did an interesting thing the other day. Took off from Christchurch in New
Zealand heading south, changed to top down view, zoomed out to distance of
the moon then slewed to south pole (slewing goes faster if you zoom a way
out), plane went haywire at pole and I was stuck in the Twilight Zone with
the glabe spinning on its axis!!

Chris


"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D 7kbji$i1m$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Chris,
> I am delighted to say that the term 'quilling' is entirely named after the
> unprofessional and uncouth way in which I use the sim! That is, slewing
> and
> ignoring ATC and never making any sort of flight plan. I frequently
> change
> planes in midair too :-) Life is too short. It makes for a balance against
> those keen types who like to fly by the rules in big iron.
>
> Thanks for your kind words again.
> I spend my time writing novels that no-one will publish, and downloading
> more and more scenery for FS9. I am so impressed with the sim as a 3D
> atlas
> of the world. My wishlist for the next issue is all built around making
> the
> scenery of the whole world more accurate.
>
> --
> Quilljar
> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
> Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>
>
>
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 7:43:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Chris wrote:
> FS has taught me more about the world than geography ever did years
> ago at school for O'Levels.

Me too, also as well.

>
> I'm the same with flying, I pick a country then just fly around
> looking at anything remotely interesting.
>
> I did an interesting thing the other day. Took off from Christchurch
> in New Zealand heading south, changed to top down view, zoomed out to
> distance of the moon then slewed to south pole (slewing goes faster
> if you zoom a way out), plane went haywire at pole and I was stuck in
> the Twilight Zone with the glabe spinning on its axis!!
>
> Chris


Now that is hardcore quilling!

>
Quilljar
see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
June 1, 2005 10:01:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar"
> have just been
> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia.

:-(


Dallas
Anonymous
June 1, 2005 10:59:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> "Quilljar"
>> have just been
>> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia.
>
> :-(
>
>
> Dallas


No I say :-) :-)

because I most probably won't wind up in an old folks home after all ,being
called by my christian name by strangers, dribbling down my woolly pyjamas
and having my arse wiped by a 17 year old.


--
Quilljar
see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 11:51:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

In article <d7jusq$kn2$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
Quilljar <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[snip concerned comment]

> ..which will
> probably not be long ,as I may reach 71 this year and have just been
> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia. :-)

=:( #)

Your news isn't good, but don't ever doubt that your friendships,
as your name, endures Sir Christopher.. :) )

> Actually, the prognosis for this disease is not bad at all. My consultant
> told me that if he had to have cancer this was the one he would choose :-)
> My wife. also 70, has had two melanoma ops, so we are both grateful for
> all the flagdays around the world!

Together, you will continue to Fly The Wind ..and anyway, the
world still needs it's Spitfire Flyboys just to keep the Evil
of Disease at bay.. ;) )

Blessings and good Good Fortune be with you both.. :) )

....your many other world friends in The ZFC...

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 1:25:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Quilljar,

Well, mate, if that's how you feel about it, I guess I better say I
wasn't sorry to hear about your diagnosis!? :-))

Best regards,
John Ward
"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D 7l0io$2fn$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Dallas wrote:
>> "Quilljar"
>>> have just been
>>> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia.
>>
>> :-(
>>
>>
>> Dallas
>
>
> No I say :-) :-)
>
> because I most probably won't wind up in an old folks home after all
> ,being called by my christian name by strangers, dribbling down my woolly
> pyjamas and having my arse wiped by a 17 year old.
>
>
> --
> Quilljar
> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
> Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>
>
June 2, 2005 1:25:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Was thinkin'......having my ass wiped by a 17 year old really doesn't sound
too bad if it happens to be a cute girl.....I'm kinda liberal that way : )

Even with all the problems I face from day to day which are totally unfun,
your problems trivialize them and to be honest, I really don't like it.....I
don't like any problems plaguing my friends which trivialize my own, mostly
for their sake.

You're a gutsy dude, Quilly....you just stay up there and ride the wind and
we'll both be just fine.

Arthur

"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:429e43c8$0$19600$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Hi Quilljar,
>
> Well, mate, if that's how you feel about it, I guess I better say I
> wasn't sorry to hear about your diagnosis!? :-))
>
> Best regards,
> John Ward
> "Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D 7l0io$2fn$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Dallas wrote:
>>> "Quilljar"
>>>> have just been
>>>> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia.
>>>
>>> :-(
>>>
>>>
>>> Dallas
>>
>>
>> No I say :-) :-)
>>
>> because I most probably won't wind up in an old folks home after all
>> ,being called by my christian name by strangers, dribbling down my woolly
>> pyjamas and having my arse wiped by a 17 year old.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quilljar
>> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
>> Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>>
>>
>
>
June 2, 2005 1:25:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Arthur wrote:

>
> You're a gutsy dude, Quilly....you just stay up there and ride the wind and
> we'll both be just fine.
>
> Arthur

And please don't clam up. Let us know what's happening. I think you
have a lot of friends here......


--

(Smiling) boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 1:26:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

boB wrote:
> Arthur wrote:
>
>>
>> You're a gutsy dude, Quilly....you just stay up there and ride the
>> wind and we'll both be just fine.
>>
>> Arthur
>
> And please don't clam up. Let us know what's happening. I think you
> have a lot of friends here......



Hi boB,
Now would I clam up? I ask you in all seriousness? Talk far too much
probably...:-)

Thanks everyone for such kind comments !

Cheers,

Quilljar
(now also known as 'Chronic' to some folk!)
but I am not keen on this new habit of changing callsigns I am already
completely mixed up as to who is pr and who is Melissa :-(


see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 5:54:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Arthur,

Well put, mate! :-)

Regards,
John Ward
"Arthur" <alspectorz@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:a6ydnfsMwdYx5wPfRVn-gA@rogers.com...
> Was thinkin'......having my ass wiped by a 17 year old really doesn't
> sound too bad if it happens to be a cute girl.....I'm kinda liberal that
> way : )
>
> Even with all the problems I face from day to day which are totally unfun,
> your problems trivialize them and to be honest, I really don't like
> it.....I don't like any problems plaguing my friends which trivialize my
> own, mostly for their sake.
>
> You're a gutsy dude, Quilly....you just stay up there and ride the wind
> and we'll both be just fine.
>
> Arthur
>
> "John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:429e43c8$0$19600$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> Hi Quilljar,
>>
>> Well, mate, if that's how you feel about it, I guess I better say I
>> wasn't sorry to hear about your diagnosis!? :-))
>>
>> Best regards,
>> John Ward
>> "Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:D 7l0io$2fn$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>> Dallas wrote:
>>>> "Quilljar"
>>>>> have just been
>>>>> dignosed as having Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia.
>>>>
>>>> :-(
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dallas
>>>
>>>
>>> No I say :-) :-)
>>>
>>> because I most probably won't wind up in an old folks home after all
>>> ,being called by my christian name by strangers, dribbling down my
>>> woolly pyjamas and having my arse wiped by a 17 year old.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Quilljar
>>> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
>>> Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 1:41:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:26:40 +0000 (UTC), Quilljar wrote:

> Quilljar
> (now also known as 'Chronic' to some folk!)

Hi Chronic!
How's Bluntman these days?
:-)

Sorry...couldn't pass up the oppertunity!

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.)
June 3, 2005 2:37:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marcel Kuijper"
> Hi Chronic!
> How's Bluntman these days?

Trust me... that went right over his head.

Dallas
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 2:55:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

It certainly did :-(

Couldn't be me, I'm noted as the soul of tact worldwide.


Cheers
Quilljar


Try 'Living With Technology' magazine
http://www.livtech.co.uk
June 3, 2005 3:22:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar"
> Couldn't be me, I'm noted as the soul of tact worldwide.

No... the Bluntman term comes from an obscure series of movies staring "Jay
and Silent Bob", a couple of "stoners". The Blunt reference is to short,
fat marijuana cigarette normally deliver via the respiratory system.

For further details ask Lawn Dart. :-)


Dallas
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 3:31:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> "Quilljar"
>> Couldn't be me, I'm noted as the soul of tact worldwide.
>
> No... the Bluntman term comes from an obscure series of movies
> staring "Jay and Silent Bob", a couple of "stoners". The Blunt
> reference is to short, fat marijuana cigarette normally deliver via
> the respiratory system.
>
> For further details ask Lawn Dart. :-)
>
>
> Dallas

Good grief!
I'm shocked to the core :-(
...and are you implying that dear little Lawn Dart is some sort of raving
junkie?


--
Cheers
Quilljar


Try 'Living With Technology' magazine
http://www.livtech.co.uk
June 3, 2005 11:55:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 31 May 2005 21:45:23 +0000 (UTC), "Quilljar"
<wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Thanks! I had indeed forgotten all that :-)
>Can wingtip vortices sometimes form contrails as well? Or is it just when an
>aerobatic maneuvre lowers that air pressure?
>
> Quilljar
> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
>Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>
When the temperature and dew point are close, you will see moisture
being compressed and released at the wing tips of heavy aircraft when
landing..Streaming back in the votices
June 6, 2005 3:21:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:55:56 GMT, Chuck <none@no.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 31 May 2005 21:45:23 +0000 (UTC), "Quilljar"
><wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Thanks! I had indeed forgotten all that :-)
>>Can wingtip vortices sometimes form contrails as well? Or is it just when an
>>aerobatic maneuvre lowers that air pressure?
>>
>> Quilljar
>> see http://client.webshots.com/album/194691959rhDQFi
>>Do not reply personally, all such emails go into my spam filter
>>
>When the temperature and dew point are close, you will see moisture
>being compressed and released at the wing tips of heavy aircraft when
>landing..Streaming back in the votices

You will even see them off the wing tips of a Bonanza at times and
particularly in turns when the temp and dewpoint are close.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
!