Home-Built Advice?

[Spontz]

Greetings,

I'm considering building a computer after a prolonged absence from such things (my previous effort was a 600-MHz something-or-other, back when that was fast, which never did start up properly for reasons best known only to itself). I've been looking through the TG site(s), and am proprely bewildered by the new technologies. So I have a few questions, and probably about eight hundred other questions I don't yet know I should ask.

For starters, how necessary is SLI? If I'll be working with digital photography and photo-editing and such, as well as a certain amount of gaming (at the moment I only play Eve Online with occasional bouts of Dark Age of Camelot, though that may of course change), will I need two graphics cards? Or will one suffice? Also, is it possible to buy one now and plug in a second later, or are the SLI cards special monstrosities sold only in pairs?

I want this machine to last as long as possible, so I'm planning on a dual-core Pentium 3.2 GHz. What sort of motherboard, RAM, and so on will I need to support this adequately?

Will it be possible to build a system for the uses listed above for around $1000-$1200, considering only the box itself?

What sort of headache am I letting myself in for?

Oh, and as a side issue, two questions about monitors. 1) Doesn't anyone make CRTs any more? And 2) how in the world do people manage to use those 1900x1200 LCDs? I just sent back a Dell computer that came with their 24" 1900x1200 display, as I couldn't read text on it. It was minuscule, for one, and at its 60-Hz refresh rate I could actually see the text bobbling up and down as the screen re-drew. Was I missing something, or are these things really designed to be used with magnifying glasses?

Anyway, any advice at all would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Cartman0123]

Unless you are an extreme gamer, SLI will not be necessary for you. Besides you would have to buy the best of the best times two to make use of it. Those games you mentioned don't require a high end graphics card. But to answer your question, you can buy one card now and later when prices drop, you could put in another of the exact same card. You will need a motherboard that supports SLI of course.
As far as the other questions, I will let someone with more experience help you out there.

 

[Ian]

For starters, how necessary is SLI? If I'll be working with digital photography and photo-editing and such, as well as a certain amount of gaming (at the moment I only play Eve Online with occasional bouts of Dark Age of Camelot, though that may of course change), will I need two graphics cards? Or will one suffice? Also, is it possible to buy one now and plug in a second later, or are the SLI cards special monstrosities sold only in pairs?

For you I would definately not reccomend SLI, it would be total overkill. Just get a nice $150-200 PCI-Express x16 card, preferably an nVidia 7600 GT 128 mb.

I want this machine to last as long as possible, so I'm planning on a dual-core Pentium 3.2 GHz. What sort of motherboard, RAM, and so on will I need to support this adequately?

I am not really an Intel guy, however I would reccomend going with a nice ASUS motherboard, and some Corsair RAM.

Will it be possible to build a system for the uses listed above for around $1000-$1200, considering only the box itself?

Most definately.

Doesn't anyone make CRTs any more?

CRTs are becoming hard to find, however after comparing my Viewsonic P95f+ (which is basically the summit of CRT technology), to a Viewsonic VX922 19" LCD, I would have to say go with a nice new LCD anyway. Colors are really nice, and the brightness is great.

 

[TabrisDarkPeace]

Start here, and work 'backwards' as you know which CPU you want:
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/pentium_D/index.htm
- They are called the "Pentium D" btw (Dual-core Pentium 4), and the 900 series is a far better choice than the 800 series.

Intel® Pentium® D processor 940, 65 nm, LGA775, 2x2MB L2, 3.20 GHz, 800 MHz FSB. It is the 65nm and Intel® Virtualization Technology± that give it the edge over the 800 series.


A Pentium D 940 should be paired with a board based on the "Intel® 955X Express chipset" or "Intel® 945P Express chipset" for best performance and stability. (There are many other options, but those 2 would be your best bet).

For an Intel system I'd recommend an Abit mainboard. The following boards are likely to hold something that catches your eye:

AW8-MAX / Intel 955X
http://www2.abit.com.tw/page/au/motherboard/motherboard_detail.php?pMODEL_NAME=AW8-MAX&fMTYPE=LGA775

AW8 / Intel 955X
http://www2.abit.com.tw/page/au/motherboard/motherboard_detail.php?pMODEL_NAME=AW8&fMTYPE=LGA775

IL8 / Intel 945P
http://www2.abit.com.tw/page/au/motherboard/motherboard_detail.php?pMODEL_NAME=IL8&fMTYPE=LGA775

NI8-SLI GR / Nvidia nForce 4 SLI (Intel SLI board, just for more mix)
http://www2.abit.com.tw/page/au/motherboard/motherboard_detail.php?pMODEL_NAME=NI8-SLI+GR&fMTYPE=LGA775

Without prices, that should help give you an idea of the chipsets to look for, 2 are Intel 955X, one is Intel 945P, and the other is nForce 4 SLI (for Intel).

As above, you are not going to benefit from SLI in those games.
2D image editing, video editing, and even 3D modelling doesn't benefit from SLI all that much. Although if 3D modelling look into a nVidia Quadro series or ATI FireGL series video card - both of which will work on any of the above boards.

I'd recommend getting 2 x 1024 MB DDR2 (for 2 GB RAM), leaving 2 slots available for another 2 x 1024 MB DDR2 later on to get 4 GB down the road if desired.

You may require a new case that meets CAG 1.1 (Chassis Air Guide 1.1), it will thus have a vent / tunnel over the CPU socket, aswell as a vent just above the video card slot for better airflow. Intels stance on this is that it is required for the CPUs (they would know, as they make them), although many people disregard their recommendations and build ovens which lack both the forementioned.... then wonder why their PCs break within 3 years .

You'll likely be after decent 400 - 450 watt PSU will be all you require, and should last 3-4 years with surge protection (even the cheap surge protection, if replaced every 12 months, or every time it 'protects' the system).

The nVidia GeForce 7600 GT mentioned above is a fine choice for the kinds of games you play, and should be fairly future proof in your case (as far as video card future-proofing goes ).

Then just add some decent SATA-II HDDs with NCQ (Native Command Queuing) and a nice TFT or CRT, and you'll be set.

The Samsung, Phillips, NEC and Mitsubishi 19" TFTs are pretty good. They also run 1280 x 1024, aswell as 1024 x 768, (most TFTs only run 1 resolution well and all other poorly). Bear in mind they all have fast response models and higher image quality models, you may be after the latter as 12ms with good dynamic colour range is likely what you are seeking. (That is the impression you're giving me anyway). Even at 1280 x 1024 on a 19" (4:3 aspect btw) you won't go blind trying to read the text. However if you have poor eye sight 1024 x 768 on a 19" will help you substantially.

 

[Spontz]

For you I would definately not reccomend SLI, it would be total overkill. Just get a nice $150-200 PCI-Express x16 card, preferably an nVidia 7600 GT 128 mb.

I have a 128 Mb GeForce4 in my current Dell, which is getting quirky and irritable as it approaches old age, and with that I get pronounced lag and stuttering when numerous objects are visible in the MMORPGs I play. I'm willing to pay a bit extra to get rid of that; plus my inner geek would have a fit if any part of the new computer doesn't seem to be an improvement over the old one.

As for SLI being overkill... I'm no hard-core gamer, but I have enjoyed the odd FPS in the past. Would it make sense to get an SLI-capable motherboard, just in case something appears on the horizon that catches my interest and calls for SLI? Or is it really only necessary for people who need to squeeze every last fps out of their FPS at LAN parties?

CRTs are becoming hard to find, however after comparing my Viewsonic P95f+ (which is basically the summit of CRT technology), to a Viewsonic VX922 19" LCD, I would have to say go with a nice new LCD anyway. Colors are really nice, and the brightness is great.

Thanks, I'll look into that. Is realistic color replication no longer a problem? And what about ghosting? My eyes aren't the best, and I'm willing to shell out a bit extra to save them from the added wear and tear from a monitor that gives me odd colors and makes moving objects look strange.

Start here, and work 'backwards' as you know which CPU you want:
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/pentium_D/index.htm

Thank you! And thank you for the motherboard suggestions. That's the most bewildering part of this, for me. RAM, hard drives, etc. are easy by comparison.

You may require a new case that meets CAG 1.1 (Chassis Air Guide 1.1), it will thus have a vent / tunnel over the CPU socket, aswell as a vent just above the video card slot for better airflow.

I read a review of this case on this site, and fell in love. I don't see a mention of CAG 1.1 in its specs; does that mean it would kill a Pentium D?

You'll likely be after decent 400 - 450 watt PSU will be all you require, and should last 3-4 years with surge protection (even the cheap surge protection, if replaced every 12 months, or every time it 'protects' the system).

Wow, only 400 W? I take it the truly impressive ones are only for SLI systems? As for surge protection, I have an APC Back-UPS XS 900 (insert additional letters and numbers as needed), so I believe I'm well covered there. I take that quite seriously. I've never experienced a hard drive failure or any of the other hardware nightmares I hear about so often (and I've been using computers of one form or another since 1980), but my first really expensive computer was completely fried by a massive electrical surge. So in this case, I'm a firm believer in overkill.

The Samsung, Phillips, NEC and Mitsubishi 19" TFTs are pretty good. They also run 1280 x 1024, aswell as 1024 x 768, (most TFTs only run 1 resolution well and all other poorly). Bear in mind they all have fast response models and higher image quality models, you may be after the latter as 12ms with good dynamic colour range is likely what you are seeking.

That's precisely what I'm after; possibly better than 12ms if there are still ghosting issues at that speed. I have a 21" CRT now, at 1024x768 resolution (though I'm willing to try 1280x1024). With LCDs such as those suggested here, would I be able to set a better refresh rate than 60 Hz? I have a number of odd problems with my eyes, and as a result I tend to notice (and get headaches from) even minor on-screen disturbances, and the visible flickering at 60 Hz definitely counts. The Dell monitor I mentioned gave me a severe headache after about 15 minutes (compounded, I'm sure, by the microscopic text).

Thank you all very much for your assistance with this! You've already saved me hundreds of hours of pointless floundering, not to mention hundreds of dollars.

 

[Spontz]

Oh, I almost forgot one last question: What do I need to do to ensure that all of these components will be compatible with each other? The last time I attempted this, I had a few compatibility issues (or so I was told at the time) which caused me no end of annoyance and a shorted-out motherboard. Or is that no longer a problem?

Edit: Make that two questions. Should I be counting on a RAID, or with today's hard drives will its benefit to photo work be minimal?

Thanks again!

 

[mdd1963]

"will I need two graphics cards? Or will one suffice? "

SLI, although nice for those determined to play FEAR at 16000x1200 or 2048x1536 resolution with 4xAA/16xAF, is hardly necessary for any game, as long as one selects resolution and settings commensurate within his/her graphics cards' capabilities...

With a 7900GT, one is good to go for two years at very decent res/settings/quality/framerates!

 

[mitch074]

SLI has little to no use today, except (as said before) to increase quality in some games - not all. Use your cash to buy a decent single card solution, you'll replace it when you need to. By the time you'd like to use SLI, you won't be able to find the same card anymore anyway.

If you want dual core, right now the obvious choice is AMD X2: P4 suck - especially in dual core, and Conroe is still some time away.

As for compatibility, since almost everything is integrated in the motherboard these days, you're pretty safe.

Now, you're a big boy, you do what you want.

 

[TabrisDarkPeace]

That case appears fine to me btw. CPU vent and a 92mm - 120mm exhaust fan is all you really need. There also appear to be vents over the video card in some screenshots. With the transparent side you'd want a decent board to show off.

I would've suggested getting an Intel i975 series board however know one knows for sure if they'll support the new Intel 'Core' (Conroe) processor for sure come October anyway, so it might just be wasted money on a risk to high. (The Pentium D 940 won't really need upgrading come Oct '06 anyway).

By the time games need SLI of two upper mid range cards, a much higher end card will be out that outperforms most (justified) SLI solutions of the day anyway. - While using less power doing it too - 8)

Chances are newer games would need Direct X 10 anyway (but only a Direct X 8.1 or 9.0b/c compliant GPU) when the next gen games hit around 2007. Much like Half-Life 2 requires Direct X 9.0c be installed, but only requires a Direct X 8.0 compliant GPU, although it benefits from 8.1 / 9.0c.

Since you can't SLI two different video cards with differing GPUs, eg: a DX10 GPU and a DX9c GPU, there is no real point trying to 'plan' for it now IMHO. (85%+ of people don't need that capability).

You thus save on (SLI-less) mainboard, and also save on PSU.
A decent 450 watt is what I recommend for SLI (depending on cards), but could lean towards a 550 watt+ unit if long term system life is a goal (for a SLI system). By getting a decent 400 - 450 watt PSU, and only being able to install 1 video card, it shouldn't fail on you for some time. (PSUs get less efficient over time, and in some cases this can push a once stable system over the edge, even damaging components in the process).

Not to mention, SLI requires an nForce 4 chipset, and there are people out there who recommend against nForce 4 + Intel for various reasons (I am not one of them, but you don't appear to need SLI anyway). Three of the four boards I suggested above are using Intel chipsets, to be paired with an Intel CPU. You avoid strange instability / compatibility issues as Intel make both the board chipset, and the processor.

My board has SLI, yet I run an ATI video card on it.... and only a Radeon X800 XL at that (there are cards around 2.5x fold more powerful, but I don't need that for 1280 x 1024 gaming with FSAA, etc settings I find acceptable).

If you do heaps of photo / image work the Pentium D 940 is a decent choice, 2 GB of RAM (os disk cache, reduces pagefile access, etc) and decent HDDs (capacity / performance wise) would also help. Upgrading to 4 GB later (by only using 2 x 1024 MB DDR2 now) helps secure the investment. (You'll only be able to address between 2.75 GB and 3.5 GB of memory under Win32, as the memory address space is also used by PCI devices.... if you move to 4 GB you'll need WinXP x64, or WinVista x64, etc just to address it all).

For DDR2 RAM consider OCZ, Geil (GeilUSA) and G.Skill (Google their websites, to lazy to do it for you this time ). Between the three of them you should find a range of DDR2, in both price, clock speed, capacity and timings. Suggesting 2 x 1024 MB DDR2-677, but that still leaves heaps of options. Some sticks may require manual RAM timings configuration though to work, but the 'stock' stuff shouldn't and it is likely that's what you're after anyway. (RAM has more choices than video cards, and the performance range between DDR2 [~240 pin] sticks at the same clock speed is only minimal).

eg: You might be after something like these:
- http://www.gskill.com/f2-5400phu2-zx.html
- http://www.gskill.com/images/2zx22-b.jpg
- http://www.gskill.com/images/f2667zx2-b.jpg - As you can see by the screenshot, they test using a Intel i955 chipset in dual-channel configurations. (I do my homework when designing a system, and believe in the power of the written word)

- Or you may even be looking for real 'stock' stuff, w/o even the heatspreaders. I only like them as they reduce the chance of ESD / EMI damage, during installation / removal and also during operation. The 'perspex' (?) side panel in your case isn't going to block radio signals / EMI, but that shouldn't cause issues. Although it is one reason why I suggested RAM with a heatspreader. (Sounds crazy but IBM did tests back in the 70's - 80's if I recall correctly, and you may aswell by the sounds of it, indicating 8mm cold rolled steel will stop systems crashing for no 'normally observable' reason).

I've seen enough faulty Corsair, and even Crucial, sticks to make me wonder about their claims regarding long term stability. No disrespect to either company as the people they sell to do abuse the hardware, but the price/performance ratio alone leaves much to be desired. Of course there are just as many people recommending them, as people who don't.

Of course, don't let me spec the system out piece by piece , look around, find the deals in your localle, see what has the best price/performance ratios, appears well built, durable / protected from things that might cause problems, has value adding specs or features, etc

Truth be said, you are the only person that knows what you are really after.

PS: Heatsink colours match between the heatspreader on the G.Skill DDR2 and the heatsinks on the above Abit mainboards. (Internal aesthetics is not my top priority when designing systems, but suspect it is important to you).

 

[mitch074]

If you decide to go SLI anyway, then revise your CPU specs and go AMD: AMD's Nforce4 does work better than Intel's in those cases, gives you everything but the kitchen sink.

Frankly, I have despised all Intel desktop chips since they left the PIII and 440BX to die. But that's just me.

 

[Spontz]

Tabris, thank you again for your assistance! You've given me much on which to ponder and from which to plot. Your advice regarding SLI makes good sense, and will save me a great deal of money.

I will do a bit of research, starting from this advice, and see if I can put together a reasonable plan for this thing.

 

[Spontz]

Start here, and work 'backwards' as you know which CPU you want:
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/pentium_D/index.htm

...

For an Intel system I'd recommend an Abit mainboard.

Hmm... Abit, not Intel? I'm not too worried about whether or not the heat sink and the RAM match. I am concerned about compatibility and stability and the like, though. I used an Abit motherboard the last time I tried this, and that computer never did work properly (two facts which may have absolutely no connection between them).

Also, I've been reading a number of things on the main TG site that seem to indicate that AMD is better than Intel. I thought of Intel at first because I'm used to thinking Intel, but is it really a bad idea? Or is Intel better for a non-expert like myself, and AMD geared more toward people who really know what they're doing?

 

[SciPunk]

Sounds like you will be right around that $1200 figure... not including the monitor, keyboard, mouse, and OS.

Here are a few things you will need that you didn't mention:
WindowsXP, a tube of Arctic Silver 5 (cpu thermal grease), and a CD/DVD drive. Your mother board will probably come with some cables, but you may want some nice rounded ones. If you want a floppy disk, you may want a rounded cable for it too.

Intel tends to run hotter and use more power. Depending on the application, either may provide better performance (AMD for gaming, Intel for compression/codec type stuff). Both are about the same dificulty level when putting together your system.

 

[steveosazninvazn]

My suggestion is that you should use an AMD. You mentioned that you wanted to make this computer last a long time, and AMD, both easily OCable and last a long time. Since your mostly going to be using this for photos and minor gaming, you're not going to need that great of a video card. A 7600GT should more than suffice. Plus, a bunch of great CRT's are still out there, Viewsonic makes great CRT's that own LCD's in every way except for size. Thier CRT's don't smear and they have great framerates. So IMO, go for a Viewsonic CRT with a 7600GT and an AMD Opteron processor and OC the living hell out of it and you should be more than fine.