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Honolulu take-offs - Quick Question.

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Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:13:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either
...

Thanks!

Martin
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:13:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:qpkma1t5pqfnml6j5a1j8vk3h30colnfoa@4ax.com...
> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either

The "reef runway" (the east-west one out on the water) has been the primary
runway most of the times I went there In Real Life. I haven't been there in
a while, but I think it was 9/27. Don't remember any mountains off either
end of the reef runway. I think there's a RWY 04 but I've never departed on
that one, just landed, so you're coming in from over the water.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:23:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Martin S. wrote:
> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either
> ..
>
> Thanks!
>
> Martin

My memory of landing and take-off at Honolulu is that we were always
parallel to the shore and no mountains ahead or behind. I think the
prevailing wind means that that is the runway most in use for big jets.


--
Cheers
Quilljar


Try 'Living With Technology' magazine
http://www.livtech.co.uk
Related resources
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:33:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

You mean that runways 8R/L, which point towards the mountains in FS9,
are not used for take-offs in the real world. Those are the two main
runways, as far as I can see..

Martin
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:44:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Martin S. wrote:
> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either

I have a similar problem with SFO, in reverse. When ATC directs me to
land on runway 10, I cannot clear the mountains at the altitude that
would permit a landing. If I get past the mountains I am too high.
Looking at the real life SFO, it would appear, though I don't know this
for a fact, that the mountains are lower, or father away, or something,
than the terrain has them in the game.



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
June 12, 2005 1:44:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

The Man Behind The Curtain (formerly The Lindbergh Baby) wrote:
> in the game.
>
>


GAME???????????

[sniff]
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:56:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Martin S. wrote:
> You mean that runways 8R/L, which point towards the mountains in FS9,
> are not used for take-offs in the real world. Those are the two main
> runways, as far as I can see..
>
> Martin

Yes, those are the ones Martin. I don't recall the angle of climb of the 747
I was in IRL, but it is pretty steep these days and I would have thought
that you would clear those hills by a couple of thousand feet. I don't
normally fly commercial stuff in the sim, so I'll give it a try tomorrow.


--
Cheers
Quilljar


Try 'Living With Technology' magazine
http://www.livtech.co.uk
June 12, 2005 8:54:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Chris McMartin"
> The "reef runway" (the east-west one out on the water) has been the
primary
> runway most of the times I went there In Real Life.

Yeah, the prevailing wind in Hawaii is almost constantly out of the east to
northeast.

Dallas
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 12:07:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Ground, in FS9, always seems to direct me to 8L or 8R for take-off -
obviously I need to adjust wind direction then so that it is more
realistic.

It's not hard at all to clear the mountains without risking a stall,
but I just wondered if anyone had actually taken off from Honolulu and
noticed whether planes pull sharply to the sea at take-off or climb
rapidly to clear the hills. If they use rwy 4, then clearly neither!

I used to fly around the world (real world I mean!) a lot till I was
'grounded' in 2002 for family reasons. Next week, I am taking my first
real-world flight (Heathrow to Mumbai) since starting to use MSFS
(2203): I am sure it will be a whole different experience for me from
before I started flying FS regularly!! Pity you're not allowed into
the cockpit these days...

Martin
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 12:07:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:3sqna1hfh6puq378kpa7ua1ri4rgao3351@4ax.com...
> It's not hard at all to clear the mountains without risking a stall,
> but I just wondered if anyone had actually taken off from Honolulu and
> noticed whether planes pull sharply to the sea at take-off or climb
> rapidly to clear the hills. If they use rwy 4, then clearly neither!

I think you have to turn seaward on departures, not necessarily for terrain
avoidance, but to avoid overflight of Waikiki (noise abatement purposes).
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 5:25:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:13:52 -0500, CRaSH wrote:

> The Man Behind The Curtain (formerly The Lindbergh Baby) wrote:
>> in the game.
>
> GAME???????????
>
> [sniff]

Steady, Don....Don! DON! DOWN BOY!! DOWN!!!
There's a good Don.....wanna Scooby snack?

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(Any landing you walk away from wasn't one of Melissa's! <g>)
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 9:20:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Sounds very probable!

>I think you have to turn seaward on departures, not necessarily for terrain
>avoidance, but to avoid overflight of Waikiki (noise abatement purposes).
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 12:23:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:qpkma1t5pqfnml6j5a1j8vk3h30colnfoa@4ax.com...
> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either
> ..
>
> Thanks!
>
> Martin

Martin,
Here are the details from takeoff minimums for Hawaii. Got this from
myairplane.com. Approach plates, all sorts of goodies.
Sure looks like a right turn pronto:

HONOLULU, HI
HONOLULU INTL
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 4L/R, Categories A, B
1800-2 or std. with a min. climb of 466' per NM to 2000;
Categories C, D 3200-2 or std. with a min. climb of 524'
per NM to 3500. Standard if special departure used.
Rwy 8L, Categories A, B 600-2 or std. with a min. climb
of 210' per NM to 1000; Categories C,D 1500-2 or std.
with a min. climb of 334' per NM to 1700. Standard if
special departure used. Rwy 8R, 500-1 or std. with a
min. climb of 212' per NM to 1000. Standard if special
departure used. Rwy 26L, 300-1 or std. with a min. climb
of 285' per NM to 3000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Comply with SID or
RADAR VECTORS or Rwys 4L/R, 8L/R, climbing
right turn as soon as practicable, then as cleared.
Rwys 22L/R, 26L/R, climb runway heading to 300'
then left climbing turn as cleared. Left turn must be
completed within 2 NM of runway departure end (HNL
3.0 DME). CAUTION: Steeply rising terrain North and
East of airport. Tall vessels traverse Pearl Harbor
Channel.
SPECIAL DEPARTURE: Immediate climbing right turn,
between heading 150° and 200° to be completed within 2
NM of runway departure end then as cleared. Turn must
be completed prior to HNL 3.6 DME.

cheers
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 4:18:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

CRaSH wrote:
> The Man Behind The Curtain (formerly The Lindbergh Baby) wrote:
>
>>in the game.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> GAME???????????
>
> [sniff]
>
>

In the thing that my wife tells me I'm wasting my life on....

Any better? ;-)



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 7:43:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"rotalator" <robvs@nstexas.net> wrote in news:BaadnbtpIYGZfTHfRVn-
hg@texas.net:

>
> "Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
> news:qpkma1t5pqfnml6j5a1j8vk3h30colnfoa@4ax.com...
>> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
>> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
>> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
>> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
>> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either

IRL, large body aircraft (and sometimes others when many landings
coming into 8L), depart on 8R and turn to about 110 right after take off.
The inter island aircraft (737, 717, and Dash-8 mostly) normally use 8L,
(as mentioned, on occasion required to taxi out to 8R reef runway) again
turning right to 110 more or less. The GA aircraft on the south side of
the airport use 4R. They turn right after takeoff and more or less
follow the H-1 freeway to the east.

Landings are normally on 8L. Once on a late night (2330) I had an
Omni Air 767 land on 4R. The GA use 4R and I have seen interisland
aircraft on that on occasion, but most of the time on 8L.

When winds are Kona, I think they pretty much only use 26L, certainly
for landing which is one of those LDA approaches. They are supposed to
remain at least .25 miles from Waikiki coming in. A year or so ago
there was a dust up over (IIRC JAL or KAL) 747 that was reported to
"almost hit" the Century Building, but according to FAA wa OK, just a
little close. GA uses 22L when winds are Kona. I was in a Cessna
402 (pax) and did that. Very good views of the ridge neighborhoods
coming in, agian more or less along H-1.

scott s.
..
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 1:07:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Thanks very much for the last two posts. Appreciated.

Martin
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 4:24:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi,

Landings on runway 10 are not done straight in, but are done with a hair
raising ~90 deg. turn just at the end of the runway. You are well below
the altitude of the mountains when this is done.

Winds almost never favor this approach (luckily) and if they are
relatively light, aircraft use the 28 runways anyway.

Hope this helps,

Tom Gibson

Cal Classic Propliner Page: http://www.calclassic.com

Cal Classic Alco Page: http://www.calclassic.com/alco

Freeflight Design Shop: http://www.freeflightdesign.com



The Man Behind The Curtain (formerly The Lindbergh Baby) wrote:
> Martin S. wrote:
>
>> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
>> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
>> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
>> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
>> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either
>
>
> I have a similar problem with SFO, in reverse. When ATC directs me to
> land on runway 10, I cannot clear the mountains at the altitude that
> would permit a landing. If I get past the mountains I am too high.
> Looking at the real life SFO, it would appear, though I don't know this
> for a fact, that the mountains are lower, or father away, or something,
> than the terrain has them in the game.
>
>
>
> John
>
June 13, 2005 11:42:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

I know what you mean martin. I took a trip here from Memphis to New Yor
landing at La Guardia and it was a different experence. Now when I fly
somewhere I program the flight in to FS9 first and fly it myself so I know
where I am at all times and when the landing comes I feel almost as if I'm
flying the approach myself because in fact I HAVE flown it!

Darren
"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:3sqna1hfh6puq378kpa7ua1ri4rgao3351@4ax.com...
> Ground, in FS9, always seems to direct me to 8L or 8R for take-off -
> obviously I need to adjust wind direction then so that it is more
> realistic.
>
> It's not hard at all to clear the mountains without risking a stall,
> but I just wondered if anyone had actually taken off from Honolulu and
> noticed whether planes pull sharply to the sea at take-off or climb
> rapidly to clear the hills. If they use rwy 4, then clearly neither!
>
> I used to fly around the world (real world I mean!) a lot till I was
> 'grounded' in 2002 for family reasons. Next week, I am taking my first
> real-world flight (Heathrow to Mumbai) since starting to use MSFS
> (2203): I am sure it will be a whole different experience for me from
> before I started flying FS regularly!! Pity you're not allowed into
> the cockpit these days...
>
> Martin
>
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 3:35:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Darren" <dshields@midsouth.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Gklre.32474$iu.2230@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
>I know what you mean martin. I took a trip here from Memphis to New Yor
>landing at La Guardia and it was a different experence. Now when I fly
>somewhere I program the flight in to FS9 first and fly it myself so I know
>where I am at all times and when the landing comes I feel almost as if I'm
>flying the approach myself because in fact I HAVE flown it!
>
> Darren



Now Darren, do you think you could fly one of those approaches in parallel
with your real flight on a laptop computer from your airline seat?



peter greenstein
http://wakefieldjazz.com/
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 6:13:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

It looks like you are talking about runway 4R?

On a decent clear, calm day you should have no serious problem clearing the
mountain with decent altitude separating you from its highest point. . In a
DC3 climbing out at about 700 feet per minute at 85 knots you get to about
4500 feet when arriving over the mountain. These numbers would not be far
off for most light aircraft. It looks like the mountain peak is around 2400
feet. Take a look:
http://www.mbm30.org/Mike/HonoluludepartureDC3.jpg

A higher performance plane like a 737-400 has absolutely NO problem clearing
the mountains. It is about 6500 feet by the time it reaches the mountain,
putting well above its peak.

http://www.mbm30.org/Mike/Honoluludeparture737.jpg

Now, it is never wrong to avoid the mountainanous terrain so certainly a
left or right turn would be appropriate. My vote personally would be a
right turn away from the general mountain geography. Much of the decision
about mountains has to do with the aircraft's capability, whether it is a
single or multi engined aircraft and whether you are flying with a little
load or a heavy one.

Mike C

"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:qpkma1t5pqfnml6j5a1j8vk3h30colnfoa@4ax.com...
> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either
> ..
>
> Thanks!
>
> Martin
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 6:13:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

It looks like you are talking about runway 4R?

On a decent clear, calm day you should have no serious problem clearing the
mountain with decent altitude separating you from its highest point. . In a
DC3 climbing out at about 700 feet per minute at 85 knots you get to about
4500 feet when arriving over the mountain. These numbers would not be far
off for most light aircraft. It looks like the mountain peak is around 2400
feet. Take a look:
http://www.mbm30.org/Mike/HonoluludepartureDC3.jpg

A higher performance plane like a 737-400 has absolutely NO problem clearing
the mountains. It is about 6500 feet by the time it reaches the mountain,
putting well above its peak.

http://www.mbm30.org/Mike/Honoluludeparture737.jpg

Now, it is never wrong to avoid the mountainanous terrain so certainly a
left or right turn would be appropriate. My vote personally would be a
right turn away from the general mountain geography. Much of the decision
about mountains has to do with the aircraft's capability, whether it is a
single or multi engined aircraft and whether you are flying with a little
load or a heavy one.

Mike C

"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:qpkma1t5pqfnml6j5a1j8vk3h30colnfoa@4ax.com...
> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either
> ..
>
> Thanks!
>
> Martin
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 5:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

(Hoping off Mike's post since the OP's post was missing off my server)

"Martin S." <Martin S@ms.com> wrote in message
news:qpkma1t5pqfnml6j5a1j8vk3h30colnfoa@4ax.com...

>> When flying from Honolulu Intl. does anyone know how real-world
>> aircraft cope with the mountain range right in front of the take-off
>> path: make a sudden right (left??) immediately after take-off, or go
>> through the gap almost directly dead ahead? Never quite sure what to
>> do in the sim, and never had the good fortune to go to Honolulu either

In the US (including Alaska and Hawaii), IFR take-off minimums and obstacle
departure procedures are published for any airport/runway that, due to
terrain and/or man-made obstacles (such as smoke stacks, antennas, etc),
requires something other than runway heading and 200 feet per mile, the
"default IFR departure procedures that guarantee terrain clearance unless
otherwise specified.

Here are the take-off minimums and obstacle departure procedures for
Honolulu. Find the text for a specific runway at that airport for its
specific obstacle departure procedures:

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/PACTO...

In addition to TOMs and ODPs, it appears that some of Honolulu's runways'
instrument departure procedures (DPs) serve to offer some built-in
obstacle/terrain avoidance as well as ATC traffic flow.

Since I have never flown in or out of Honolulu (or any Hawaiin airport, for
that matter), I couldn't tell you what DPs are normally included in the
instrument clearance, but typically, one of these would be included for
every IFR clearance.

For HNL's DPs, go here:

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/index.php

and search on "HNL" to see the list of DPs available.

--
Peter
























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May 31, 2009 6:19:02 PM

In real world flying, there are procedures for takeoff (departures and arrivals, SID Standard Instrument Departure and STAR Standard Terminal Arrival Route plate charts or procedures) that define which runway and wich pattern should be followed. For Honolulu Int'l, (PHNL), the most commonly used is called Molokai Four departure SID. The runways in use for takeoffs are 8L and 8R (the "coral reef runway"). Both are heading so you can clear the ground obstacles without any problems. But you must also follow the noise abatement procedures and the ban to fly over Wakiki shore and Diamond Head, so the directive calls for a right climbing turn up to 5000 ft to the MKK vortac. Most of these takeoff are under ATC radar vectoring control.

Runways 4L and 4R are only used for landings. Those are the ones you see on FS pointing towards the mountain range.

Hope this helps your question. Please let me know if you want any further detail.
Sincerely,

Mike C.
ATP/CII B747 777 767
!