ATI RV570/RV560 Update

[ltcommander_data]

There was a thread about the new mid-range RV570/RV560 cards a while ago so I thought I'd post an update for anyone who's interested.

Original Chinese:
http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=574802

Translated:
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=zh-CN%7Cen&u=http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D574802

Some of the information in here contradicts what've we've heard before. Namely that it seems that they will be produced in 80nm despite concerns over low yields and the possibility of switching to 90nm. As well, it was reported before that the RV570 and RV560 were the same but just produced at different companies, but it seems that they are actually different and will both be produced at TSMC.

I guessed this in the previous thread, although it seems pretty obvious, but the RV570 will be 12 "pipelined" with 36 pixel shaders, while the RV560 will have 8 "pipelines" and 24 pixel shaders. What's interesting is that they now both appear to have 128-bit memory controllers again. I guess this could be an indication of GDDR4 memory as the method of increasing memory bandwidth. It was probably a cost issue to keep the die size small for the memory controller to make room for the many pixel shaders especially in the RV570.

The RV535 is also on track to target the 7300. The time frame for everything is Q3.

 

[Action_Man]

Interesting. GDDR4 would be pretty expensive, I doubt they'll be using it.

Odd the board looks exactly the same as an x1600. Probably BS.

 

[tenaciousleydead]

yes their are very few quantities of gddr4 produced plus it takes long to manufacture and is way more expensive. they may use it for the xtx ver or w/e. i donno...umm.whaterver ill just leave now...cant think. Peace guys.

 

[Acert93]

I guessed this in the previous thread, although it seems pretty obvious, but the RV570 will be 12 "pipelined" with 36 pixel shaders, while the RV560 will have 8 "pipelines" and 24 pixel shaders. What's interesting is that they now both appear to have 128-bit memory controllers again. I guess this could be an indication of GDDR4 memory as the method of increasing memory bandwidth. It was probably a cost issue to keep the die size small for the memory controller to make room for the many pixel shaders especially in the RV570.

Interestingly the shader ALUs are not very big. Assuming they are similar to the shader ALUs in the R580 (as the slide indicates), the 36 ALU part would need only ~45M more transistors than the same GPU with only 12 ALUs. The 8:24 design would need ~30M more transistors over a comparable 8:8 part. On the budget and mainstream cards this is a bit of space, but going to the 80nm halfnode helps offset some of that (like almost 20% die area compared to 90nm). The other big selling point is future performance.

I know the 12:36 part looks really enticing to me! If they can get that clocked up to 600MHz+ with some decent memory it could compete with the 7600GT... hopefully it will be just as cheap! With DX10/Vista delayed, this mean some good competition in this market come fall and in OEMs.

 

[ltcommander_data]

Of course the pixel shaders aren't the only thing increasing. The texture units and ROPs will also triple to 12 and the Z compare units will no doubt double to 16. They'll probably also add one more vertex shader making it 6 in total for good measure. Even with the 80nm, the RV570 will be pretty large. In terms of pricing, the competitor with the 7600GT will be the RV560, while the RV570XL will replace the X1800GT and X1800XL and the RV570XT will go for the X1800XT and 7900GT.

It also seems that ATI will go 80nm for the X1900 with the R580+.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30623

ATI was never in a rush to get to R600 so a mid-year 80nm refresh with higher clock speeds and memory would be nice. With the G80 missing it's tape out, there really isn't that much pressure on the R600.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30624

 

[cleeve]

Nice info there.

Looks like the 12 'pipe'/36-shader R570 will be a good match for the X1800 XT and 7900 GT price segment, and the 8 'pipe'/24-shader R560 will be a good match for the 7600 GT.

With the upcoming R580+ refresh, Ati will have all the bases covered if they can execute quickly. But they have to do it fast, the 7600 GT and 7900 GT are excellent cards...

What the hell are they going to call these cards though?

One will be the X1700 for sure, but will the other one be X1750 or X1850?

Or mabye the R560 will be the X1700 GT, and the R570 will be the X1700 XTX...

 

[ltcommander_data]

I know with the RV505, RV535, RV560, RV570, and R580+ coming on top of the RV515, R520, RV535, and R580 ATI has far too many products for a far too clottered product line.

The RV505 is probably just a RV515 die shrink and it's to come in at the X300s price so it'll probably be called the X1350 or X1400.

The RV535 is just a RV530 die shrink but it's targeted to replace the current X1300s in their price range. This messes everything up, because it really should be a X1650, but it's supposed to be a low-end card rather than the mid-end that name would imply. What'll probably happen is that the RV535 will be called the X1500 even though it'll outperform the X1600. Brings back memories of the 9500 outperforming the 9600.

The RV560 will have to be the X1700 because calling it the X1650 wouldn't do it justice by having twice the pipelines and pixel shaders.

The RV570 will have to be the X1850 as you say, because like the RV560, calling it the X1750 isn't very reflective. If the XT version actually outperforms the X1800XT, then a X1850 designation is justified. Performance should definitely by higher than the X1800GTO and X1800XL anyways. The only thing is that a X1850 designation is correct from relative performance, but it wrecks havok from a marketing perspective since it appears to be a very high-end card from the number while it's actually more toward the lower-high end segment. It's really hard to tell where the high-end segment is now anymore though with the launch prices for the top models getting ever higher.

The R580+ will of course be the X1950. I'm hoping to see GDDR4 memory for this top-end part.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

What the hell are they going to call these cards though?

One will be the X1700 for sure, but will the other one be X1750 or X1850?

Or mabye the R560 will be the X1700 GT, and the R570 will be the X1700 XTX...

And that's just it, you can still call them the X1700GTO/PRO/XL/XT , and then with the X1800 we still haven't used the SE, LE or PRO yet (we have used GTO, XL and XT) there could be the X1800XTX as well.

I'd prefer that whatever it is is the X1850 as it would sorta signify the transition from 1shader/pipe to the X1900s 3/pipe.

Of course who knows with things like this, maybe they's add the RT and RS from the racing world. :twisted:

 

[Acert93]

Of course the pixel shaders aren't the only thing increasing. The texture units and ROPs will also triple to 12

I was not contrasting the X1600 to these; I was contrasting the same chip with a 1:1 TMU-to-PS arrangement to a 1:3 arrangement and the additional cost based on what we know about the X1800-to-X1900 jump. The X1900 has the same basic nuts and bolts of the X1800 less it added more PS ALUs. Ditto with these new GPUs. All I did was extrapolate the known cost of that step to these new GPUs. Not a perfect science, but should be ballpark.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Interesting. GDDR4 would be pretty expensive, I doubt they'll be using it.

Odd the board looks exactly the same as an x1600. Probably BS.

Depends, GDDR4 could be atttractive on the low end of the speed scale.

Samsung was ramping up 800 and 1066 quantities at the end of last year and now 1200 and 1400 speeds. I would wonder if GDDR800 will be much more expensive than GDD3 800 which is more on the top end of the GDDR3 range (1.2 [only 1.1 is currently faster])

I could see it but alot would depend on price, the fact that the X1K series support both makes anything possible, and gives them the flexibility of going with whatever is cheapest therefore when GDDR4 is in full production/selling mode it should just make things easier and less likely to see card get held up due to memory shortages like some previous cards were.

 

[ltcommander_data]

The likelihood of GDDR4 shipping on the RV570 is pretty good. Afterall, GDDR3 was first introduced on the 5700 Ultra which was an upper middle-end/low high-end card, the same as the RV570. I don't know the relative costs, but I'd imagine GDDR4 can't be that much more expensive since it's still very closely related to the design of GDDR3, which makes it easier on integrators too.

 

[cleeve]

X1850? X1950? Hmm, my money's on ATI going the GT/XTX route, or making up some other suffix.

Ati has resisted using half-hundereds, I don't think they're going to start now... Maybe X1700 and X1900 GT...

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I agree it's unlikely, I just think to do the card justice it would be better to call it an X1850 or maybe an X1900SE/LE would do. The only problem with an X1900PRO is that the plain X1900 is found on the AIW.

 

[Action_Man]

GDDR4 would probably be in small supply, especially the high end using most of it.

We'll wait and see. I'd be impressed if they were using it.

 

[ltcommander_data]

It's not like ATI has never used half hundreds since they've had the 9250, 9550, X550, and X850. I can't really see them calling the RV570 a X1800XTX or a X1900GT since the core has very little relation to those lines. The 3:1 ratio doesn't match existing X1800s and the 128-bit memory interface differentiates RV570 from both the X1800s and the X1900s. Seeing that RV560 and RV570 are completely new cores and not just a die shrink, it's also possible that they'll have some new features that further set them apart from existing cores and product lines. We already know they have integrated compositing engines. An improved compression routine would certainly explain why they reverted back to a 128-bit memory controller. I'd be interested to know if they did anything to the texture units, because while RV570 has more pixel shaders than the X1800XT it has 4 less texture units. It'd be difficult for the RV570 to outperform the X1800XT in most current games without overcoming that difficiency. Sheer clock speed just can't do it because the X1800XT already operates at 625MHz and I doubt the RV570 would be clocked much higher.

I think ATI should maybe just start on a clear slate and release everything on the X2xxx model numbers. It would certainly avoid clutter and confusion. The RV505 could then be the X2300, the RV535 the X2400, the RV560 the X2600, the RV570 the X2700, and the R580+ (they should have just left the name as the R581) the X2800 or if they feel like a bigger bang, the X2900. The only thing is of course that the lack of architecture changes don't really justify a complete line change, although they could say it's because all the models are now 80nm. They could probably gloss it over on the software side too by releasing driver support for physics calculations and expanded AVIVO features although that would be available for older models too.

 

[Action_Man]

Using the x2xxx model numbers would be sh!tty. It'd be the 9000 series all over again.

 

[cleeve]

I think they're saving the X2x00 numbers for the r600 series gpus.

 

[Action_Man]

Ya.

 

[ltcommander_data]

I thought I'd post one more update.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30649

First of all, ATI has confirmed that the R580+ will support and use GDDR4. It also seems that R580+ isn't just a simple die shrink. It's memory controller will recieve a slight redesign to optimize it for GDDR4 use, maximizing memory bandwidth and overall performance. Supposedly, GDDR4 production is doing very well so there shouldn't be a problem with supply by mid-year when the R580+ will actually be available.