Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)
I have seen cautions raised about mixing dye based and
pigment based inks. My canon i850 uses black pigmented
ink and dye based color ink. Both black and color ink
is used to print either color or gray scale pictures.
Support of these statements are in earlier posts on this
subject at the end of this article.
My understanding is that pigment inks are solids that are
finely ground (usually acrylics) mixed with an emulsifier
in a water based carrier. Dyes are salts dissolved in a water
base (aniline dyes?). From my woodworking experience, stains
can be either pigments or dyes. If the carrier is compatible
there is no problem mixing them, but you get a mess if you mix
oil based pigments with water based dyes.
Home use printers use water based inks. I don't understand
the problem in mixing dyes and pigments if they are water based.
I don't see any problem in using dyes in a printer designed for
pigments. I can see a problem in using pigments in a printhead
designed for dyes.
Why the caution about mixing dyes and pigments?
>>>>>>Begin old quoted text
Ray R Jan 9, 12:29 pm show options
Subject: Re: Yet Another - Canon Ink Question
"Ron Cohen" <drc...@N^O+S~P^A^M.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Em4Ed.8081$F67.1254@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> > Your site says don't mix dye and pigmented inks. For color the i850
> > uses dye inks. The only choice you offer is pigmented black.
> > http://atlascopy.com/refills/bulkcanon.htm offers a choice for the BCI-3
> > of either dye or pigmented ink. Their tech support says to use the
> > dye ink in the i850. Which is correct mixing pigmented black with color
> > dye ink or using all dye based ink?
> > Thanks
> > Ray
> On the i850 for photo printing, black is a mixture of the three color
inks.
> The pigmented black is only used when a plain paper (text is assumed)
mode
> is selected.
An interesting hypothesis. One problem is that CY and M ink will not
produce black. It is not within its color gamut. The darkest color CYM
can produce is a dark muddy gray. To test the hypothesis I used
photoshop to print gray scale gradient from 0 to 100%. I looked at the
result under a microscope. Up to 80% gray it is composed of CY and M
dots to produce gray. Above 80% it is black dots to produce darker gray
and black. So at least on my i850 black ink is used to print dark
colors in photo mode. An examination of dark areas on a photograph
shows a mix of colored and black dots. This is true for either photo
mode or plain paper mode.
Now as to the type of ink the BCI3-eBK uses I emailed Canon. A received
an answer within hours even though it was Saturday. The issue of mixing
inks was ignored, but they stated that the black ink is pigmented and
the color ink is dye. Very good tech support from Canon.
My i850 produces very nice prints using Canon pigmented black or dye
based black ink. I can't see any difference. My conclusion is that on
the i850 using a mix of dye and pigmented ink is not a problem. Maybe
it is because of the small dot size that not much mixing takes place.
> On the i850 photo black is not an option.
It is an option for me, but using dye ink does nor appear to give any
different results.
> Perhaps the easiest
> way to see it is to look directly at the print head carrier. There are slots
> for only four tanks. The black (pigmented) tank is physically larger than
> the three color tanks. Were you to use a photo black (dye based) ink,which
> of the three colors would you remove - Cyan, Magenta or Yellow? I think what
> may be confusing to you about the warning statement from the alotofthings
> page is that while a number of Canon printers used BCI 3e tanks, only a very
> few had the option to also use a separate photo ink print head. This is
> where the potential for using the wrong ink could be present. If someone
> refilled a photo black tank with pigmented ink, then not only would the inks
> not mix properly on the sheet resulting in poor results, printhead damage
> would also be likely.
> The following is a copy from a posting by John Mills of WeInk. I found it by
> doing a google search. I think he fully explains the i850 black ink issue.
> === start of copy ===============================
> John Mills Jul 12 2003, 4:02 pm show options
> Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers
> From: "John Mills" <supp...@weink.com> - Find messages by this
> author
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:02:58 GMT
> Local: Sat, Jul 12 2003 4:02 pm
> Subject: Re: Ink consumption question for Canon i850 owners
> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual
Message |
> Show original | Report Abuse
> If you use the i850 in plain paper standard or High Resolution Paper
> standard mode then all true black is handled by the black cartridge.
> Any gray scale other than black is a mix of both black and colors.
> Photos printed in plain paper standard mode or High Resolution Paper
> standard mode also use the black cartridge for true black in the
> photos, however what looks black to your eye may not be black to the
> driver and any off black color will be a composite of the colors.
> On all other modes the black is composited by the 3 colors.
> Ron Cohen
>
>
>
>
Reply
GB Jan 9, 5:04 pm show options
Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers
From: "GB" <g...@dilithiumNO_SPAM.com.au> - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:04:12 +1100
Local: Sun, Jan 9 2005 5:04 pm
Subject: Re: Yet Another - Canon Ink Question
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse
actually if you read the alotofthings url fully, which I have now, they go
one to explain why the 6BK is dye, not pigment as the Canon tables tries to
say it is. Basically the Canon table gets it wrong and another Canon
document gets it right...
However that doesn't change the fact that with my i865 I never fed more than
a dozen pages of plain paper or HR-101 through it, 99.99% of all its
printing was 6x4 photos. After printing a few hundred 6x4s the BCI-3eBK was
near empty (from brand new). So I really don't care what people try to say
about dye and pigment not mixing, and the 3eBK only being used for text etc,
you can't ignore what happens in front of your eyes.
Oh and exactly the same thing happened with my i850 before that.
"
Ron Cohen" <drc...@N^O+S~P^A^M.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Em4Ed.8081$F67.1254@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com
I have seen cautions raised about mixing dye based and
pigment based inks. My canon i850 uses black pigmented
ink and dye based color ink. Both black and color ink
is used to print either color or gray scale pictures.
Support of these statements are in earlier posts on this
subject at the end of this article.
My understanding is that pigment inks are solids that are
finely ground (usually acrylics) mixed with an emulsifier
in a water based carrier. Dyes are salts dissolved in a water
base (aniline dyes?). From my woodworking experience, stains
can be either pigments or dyes. If the carrier is compatible
there is no problem mixing them, but you get a mess if you mix
oil based pigments with water based dyes.
Home use printers use water based inks. I don't understand
the problem in mixing dyes and pigments if they are water based.
I don't see any problem in using dyes in a printer designed for
pigments. I can see a problem in using pigments in a printhead
designed for dyes.
Why the caution about mixing dyes and pigments?
>>>>>>Begin old quoted text
Ray R Jan 9, 12:29 pm show options
Subject: Re: Yet Another - Canon Ink Question
"Ron Cohen" <drc...@N^O+S~P^A^M.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Em4Ed.8081$F67.1254@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> > Your site says don't mix dye and pigmented inks. For color the i850
> > uses dye inks. The only choice you offer is pigmented black.
> > http://atlascopy.com/refills/bulkcanon.htm offers a choice for the BCI-3
> > of either dye or pigmented ink. Their tech support says to use the
> > dye ink in the i850. Which is correct mixing pigmented black with color
> > dye ink or using all dye based ink?
> > Thanks
> > Ray
> On the i850 for photo printing, black is a mixture of the three color
inks.
> The pigmented black is only used when a plain paper (text is assumed)
mode
> is selected.
An interesting hypothesis. One problem is that CY and M ink will not
produce black. It is not within its color gamut. The darkest color CYM
can produce is a dark muddy gray. To test the hypothesis I used
photoshop to print gray scale gradient from 0 to 100%. I looked at the
result under a microscope. Up to 80% gray it is composed of CY and M
dots to produce gray. Above 80% it is black dots to produce darker gray
and black. So at least on my i850 black ink is used to print dark
colors in photo mode. An examination of dark areas on a photograph
shows a mix of colored and black dots. This is true for either photo
mode or plain paper mode.
Now as to the type of ink the BCI3-eBK uses I emailed Canon. A received
an answer within hours even though it was Saturday. The issue of mixing
inks was ignored, but they stated that the black ink is pigmented and
the color ink is dye. Very good tech support from Canon.
My i850 produces very nice prints using Canon pigmented black or dye
based black ink. I can't see any difference. My conclusion is that on
the i850 using a mix of dye and pigmented ink is not a problem. Maybe
it is because of the small dot size that not much mixing takes place.
> On the i850 photo black is not an option.
It is an option for me, but using dye ink does nor appear to give any
different results.
> Perhaps the easiest
> way to see it is to look directly at the print head carrier. There are slots
> for only four tanks. The black (pigmented) tank is physically larger than
> the three color tanks. Were you to use a photo black (dye based) ink,which
> of the three colors would you remove - Cyan, Magenta or Yellow? I think what
> may be confusing to you about the warning statement from the alotofthings
> page is that while a number of Canon printers used BCI 3e tanks, only a very
> few had the option to also use a separate photo ink print head. This is
> where the potential for using the wrong ink could be present. If someone
> refilled a photo black tank with pigmented ink, then not only would the inks
> not mix properly on the sheet resulting in poor results, printhead damage
> would also be likely.
> The following is a copy from a posting by John Mills of WeInk. I found it by
> doing a google search. I think he fully explains the i850 black ink issue.
> === start of copy ===============================
> John Mills Jul 12 2003, 4:02 pm show options
> Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers
> From: "John Mills" <supp...@weink.com> - Find messages by this
> author
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:02:58 GMT
> Local: Sat, Jul 12 2003 4:02 pm
> Subject: Re: Ink consumption question for Canon i850 owners
> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual
Message |
> Show original | Report Abuse
> If you use the i850 in plain paper standard or High Resolution Paper
> standard mode then all true black is handled by the black cartridge.
> Any gray scale other than black is a mix of both black and colors.
> Photos printed in plain paper standard mode or High Resolution Paper
> standard mode also use the black cartridge for true black in the
> photos, however what looks black to your eye may not be black to the
> driver and any off black color will be a composite of the colors.
> On all other modes the black is composited by the 3 colors.
> Ron Cohen
>
>
>
>
Reply
GB Jan 9, 5:04 pm show options
Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers
From: "GB" <g...@dilithiumNO_SPAM.com.au> - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:04:12 +1100
Local: Sun, Jan 9 2005 5:04 pm
Subject: Re: Yet Another - Canon Ink Question
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse
actually if you read the alotofthings url fully, which I have now, they go
one to explain why the 6BK is dye, not pigment as the Canon tables tries to
say it is. Basically the Canon table gets it wrong and another Canon
document gets it right...
However that doesn't change the fact that with my i865 I never fed more than
a dozen pages of plain paper or HR-101 through it, 99.99% of all its
printing was 6x4 photos. After printing a few hundred 6x4s the BCI-3eBK was
near empty (from brand new). So I really don't care what people try to say
about dye and pigment not mixing, and the 3eBK only being used for text etc,
you can't ignore what happens in front of your eyes.
Oh and exactly the same thing happened with my i850 before that.
"
Ron Cohen" <drc...@N^O+S~P^A^M.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Em4Ed.8081$F67.1254@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com
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