realistic viewing

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

I have a couple of Intersense Intertrax2 head-trackers. They are extremely
precise trackers, and are tiny (9.4 x 2.7 x 2.7 cm) as well as light (39g or
1.4oz). The software works natively with Microsoft Flight Simulator version
2002 onward (PC only), and also comes with generic software for mouse
emulation (which means it can be used with other first person 3D software to
look around.)
(If you don't know already, these are normally used with Head Mounted
Displays - the VR type which cost anything from £200 upward, allowing you to
pan around the virtual world and virtual cockpit by simply moving your head
in the direction you want to see.)

If anyone is interested, then please email me ( reverse this:
hotmail.com@zcacjxj ) for full details (based in UK, London )
£550+VAT @17.5% = £646 inc VAT (new)
£450+VAT @17.5% = £528 inc VAT (ex-demo)

best wishes,
Joel

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

erehwon wrote:

> I have a couple of Intersense Intertrax2 head-trackers. They are extremely
> precise trackers, and are tiny (9.4 x 2.7 x 2.7 cm) as well as light (39g or
> 1.4oz). The software works natively with Microsoft Flight Simulator version
> 2002 onward (PC only), and also comes with generic software for mouse
> emulation (which means it can be used with other first person 3D software to
> look around.)
> (If you don't know already, these are normally used with Head Mounted
> Displays - the VR type which cost anything from £200 upward, allowing you to
> pan around the virtual world and virtual cockpit by simply moving your head
> in the direction you want to see.)
>
> If anyone is interested, then please email me ( reverse this:
> hotmail.com@zcacjxj ) for full details (based in UK, London )
> £550+VAT @17.5% = £646 inc VAT (new)
> £450+VAT @17.5% = £528 inc VAT (ex-demo)
>
> best wishes,
> Joel
>
>
>

Hello Joel, or in his absence, anyone here that can help

What does this item have that justifies the difference in price between
it and the TrackIR?

Intertrax2 head-tracker
http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_product.asp?Product=1209
$495.00

TrackIR 2
http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_product.asp?Product=1171
$79.00


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Come to think about it, who here uses the TrackIR and do you think it's
worth buying? Do you use it in Virtual cockpit mode only or can it be
used for other things?

I know this has been talked about before but I'd like to get current
thoughts.
--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

I've had TrackIR (hereafter TIR) for six months: version 3, but not
pro. Bottom line: if I had to choose between that and my yoke it'd be a
tough choice.

If you're mainly flying the heavies, it may not be something that'll
change your world. For the cockpit view, it does little or nothing.
Mostly nothing. But if you like GA or helicopters, it's
transformational. I now use cockpit view only for long-range trips in
the Lear -- for everything else, it's the virtual cockpit.

Some things I like:

- Within a few hours, looking around becomes second-nature.

- It's fast and accurate. The higher your framerates, the smoother the
panning. But you can move (visually) back and forth between looking at
the window and looking at your instruments very readily.

- Have heard that sim pilots, when transitioning to real world planes,
sometimes have trouble because they don't look out the window enough.
When I first started simming, there was no window to speak of. My
Timex-Sinclair 1000 had 16k of RAM (woohoo!), unspeakably crude
graphics, and the following gauges: altitude, airspeed, ADF, VOR, and
ILS. Maybe DME too. That ILS was absolutely essential, because there
was no such thing as a "visual" approach. It was either the ILS or
nothing. A lot has changed since then. There's a lot to look at out
your window now, and TIR allows you to make the most of it.

- Here's an example of where TIR really shines: turning from base onto
final. This is tricky with the hat switch. Not impossible, but tricky:
as you're banking, the angles are changing quickly and in subtle ways.
You can approximate these changes with the hat switch, but it's an
approximation. It's very hard to keep your eye on the runway AND have a
sense of what your instruments are doing. TIR makes it much easier. I
won't say I line up perfectly every time, but when you can keep the
runway in sight -- and look back at your gauges for just a second --
it's easier and more fun.

- TIR is a big chunk of change, and if you can't afford it there are
lots of other things to enjoy about the sim. Once you've gotten used to
it, though, it's hard to go back. However, should you decide to do so,
Natural Point has a 30-day money back guarantee. You'll probably pay
shipping if you don't like it, but that's it.

Bottom line: if you can afford it and you enjoy GA or helicopters, get
it; if you mainly fly Boeings and Airbuses, there might be more
interesting ways to spend your money.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

David Wilson-Okamura wrote:


> Bottom line: if you can afford it and you enjoy GA or helicopters, get
> it; if you mainly fly Boeings and Airbuses, there might be more
> interesting ways to spend your money.

That seems good. Even flying with Livewire I tend to fly the S-76, or is
it a Bell 222, on short hops. Getting it would probably empty out my
aircraft directory of all the aircraft without virt cockpits. Thanks
for the reply.


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

David Wilson-Okamura wrote:

> I've had TrackIR (hereafter TIR) for six months: version 3, but not
> pro. Bottom line: if I had to choose between that and my yoke it'd be a
> tough choice.
>

A question I should have asked. The TrackIR 2 is selling for $79.00.
The TrackIR3 is $109.00. Is there much difference that you know of?

TrackIR 2
http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_product.asp?Product=1171


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

hi Bob,
Thanks for the interesting question. (BTW, the link you provide below is
not the Intertrax2 head-tracker - and more importantly it isn't of the same
capability... I will try to explain below.)

I guess you know what TrackIR does already, but for those who don't, it
allows you to pan around using small head movements in the direction you're
wanting to look. TrackIR could work with an HMD (VR Head Mounted Display) a
little, but once you *rotate*, or *move your head too far* in any direction
TrackIR won't work (e.g. it only has a field of view of 30 deg). It's not
locked to the direction that your head is rotating, but rather to the
movement of it up/down left/right.
Hence, from a subjective point of view, you can't just look to your right,
and see what's on your right as you do in the 'real world'. Instead you
move your head (let's say to the right) and the image moves
disproportionately in the same direction - but your eyes must always be
looking at your screen. (BTW, you really ought to try stereoscopic systems
if you aren't using them already. They really are great. You can either
use shutterglasses [very cheap! £60?] on a CRT monitor with TrackIR, or use
an HMD that works in stereo - which most do, but check obviously!)

Now I agree that TrackIR is pretty good, but it's not the same thing as (not
comparable to) a VR head-tracker... The head-tracker's aim is to actually
put you 'there' - rather than provide another input device, even though
TrackIR is intended to give you a link between head-movements and the view
provided.

The Link you give below (VRTracker) is for a wireless 2DOF head-tracker.
This is much closer to the Intersense Intertrax2 device. I've not tried the
VRTracker, so I can't say what the quality is like. However, here are the
reasons that the Intertrax2 (Itrax2) is better/worse:
Itrax2 is 3DOF - so it calculates the roll, pitch and yaw of your head
direction - so in an HMD you really see what you would when you look in a
particular direction. (This is also an important part of what is called
'presence' in the industry/research/government.)
Itrax2 is not wireless:
This is a +ve and -ve point... wireless is great if you have a large
area to move around in, however it does suffer from interference if there
are metallic objects or if there is too much equipment generating RF, and
it's not always that stable (though I don't think any tracker I've ever used
has been perfectly stable - but Intersense's systems have always been the
best that I've used.)

I'd love to have compared the specs of the VRTracker with Itrax2, because
the Itrax2 is a well engineered piece of kit, and my *GUESS* is that it has
much higher specs in terms of accuracy and reliability (I'm thinking: lack
of jitter) because it is a device for professionals and hence serious
enthusiasts who have the required purchasing power - because, yes, it is
expensive - in the absolute sense - to the average person on the street.
The reason I posted to this newsgroup is because I realise there are many
serious enthusiasts, and I expect that many have the interest and ability to
buy these units (though as I said, I only have two to sell...)

Anyhow, here are the full specs of the Itrax2 (if anyone has the specs of
the VRTracker please post them - TIA)
Degrees Of Freedom: 3
Angular Ranges:

a.. +/- 80° Pitch
a.. +/- 180° Yaw
a.. +/- 90° Roll
Angular Resolution: 0.02°
Size: 9.4 x 2.7 x 2.7 cm
Weight: 39grams (1.4 oz)
Connection: USB
Cable length: 3m (USB cable)
Power: 5v (from USB cable)
PC Operating Systems: Win98, WinME, Win2000, WinXP.
PC Compatibility: Mouse emulation or Native mode.

a.. Here's the closest I found to a document on the VRTracker, but again it
doesn't appear to have specs...
http://www.geocities.com/mellott124/VRTracker2/VRTracker2USB.doc


Does anyone have one of these? I'd love to speak to them, as I like to have
as much info (subjective or otherwise) as possible on all such devices (and
that goes for HMDs too.)

Best wishes,
Joel
p.s. sorry if I've rambled. I hope that this is of some use!

> Hello Joel, or in his absence, anyone here that can help
>
> What does this item have that justifies the difference in price between
> it and the TrackIR?
>
> Intertrax2 head-tracker
> http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_product.asp?Product=1209
> $495.00
>
> TrackIR 2
> http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_product.asp?Product=1171
> $79.00
>
>
> --
>
> boB,
> SAG 70
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

In article <1119499774.15123@forums.simradar.com>,
David Wilson-Okamura <David Wilson-Okamura@forums.simradar.com> wrote:

[.. snips of very interesting comment]

> - Have heard that sim pilots, when transitioning to real world planes,
> sometimes have trouble because they don't look out the window enough.
> When I first started simming, there was no window to speak of. My
> Timex-Sinclair 1000 had 16k of RAM (woohoo!), unspeakably crude
> graphics, and the following gauges: altitude, airspeed, ADF, VOR, and
> ILS. Maybe DME too. That ILS was absolutely essential, because there
> was no such thing as a "visual" approach. It was either the ILS or
> nothing. A lot has changed since then. There's a lot to look at out
> your window now, and TIR allows you to make the most of it.

Oh, does this take me back some years! A quarter of a
century, perhaps even more now. Too, too many years..

...to a basic b/w line drawn, blocky alphanumero sim known
as "747", I believe. (If I say v. early BBC 'B', or TRS,
Quilly and Jochen will know what I mean)!

The same, or similar instruments, but nothing else to
look at.. no sound ..no colour ..no piccies ..and flying
in real time coz there was little other way of doing it!
One just imagined everything, vividly..

One Christmas holiday, a planned overnight ..all the way
from JFK to LHR ..around seven or eight hours of successfully
negotiated transatlantic crossing - no autopilot, or at least
as I remember now, a continual monitoring and tweaking.

Arrival with the dawn to overfly London and establish headings
before a gentle 180deg to a heading of 270deg for LHR's 270R..

Slowly, slowly easing in ..flaps ..gear.. flaps - smooth
but obviously a 'heavy' ..reduce altitude ..approach good,
speed good ..height around 150' as threshold moves underneath.

Serious concentration and rapidly increasing expection of true,
jubilant, success - (after a whole night's coffee and gentle key
press adjustments)..

...and... ......click!

Screen seized. 100' above the strip.. all 'movement' ceased
...program -ouch! - crash...

Oah yes! Did I 'feel' it? Did I really, really feel it..?!?!

)

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Bill (Adopt) wrote:

>
> Oh, does this take me back some years! A quarter of a
> century, perhaps even more now. Too, too many years..
>
> ..to a basic b/w line drawn, blocky alphanumero sim known
> as "747", I believe. (If I say v. early BBC 'B', or TRS,
> Quilly and Jochen will know what I mean)!
>
> Oah yes! Did I 'feel' it? Did I really, really feel it..?!?!
>
> )
>
> Bill ZFC
>


That was even before this one, although at the time I enjoyed flying out
of Meigs.

http://flightsims.vze.com/sublogic

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

erehwon wrote:

> hi Bob,
> Thanks for the interesting question. (BTW, the link you provide below is
> not the Intertrax2 head-tracker - and more importantly it isn't of the same
> capability... I will try to explain below.)
>
> I guess you know what TrackIR does already, but for those who don't, it
> allows you to pan around using small head movements in the direction you're
> wanting to look. TrackIR could work with an HMD (VR Head Mounted Display) a
> little, but once you *rotate*, or *move your head too far* in any direction
> TrackIR won't work (e.g. it only has a field of view of 30 deg). It's not
> locked to the direction that your head is rotating, but rather to the
> movement of it up/down left/right.
> Hence, from a subjective point of view, you can't just look to your right,
> and see what's on your right as you do in the 'real world'. Instead you
> move your head (let's say to the right) and the image moves
> disproportionately in the same direction - but your eyes must always be
> looking at your screen. (BTW, you really ought to try stereoscopic systems
> if you aren't using them already. They really are great. You can either
> use shutterglasses [very cheap! £60?] on a CRT monitor with TrackIR, or use
> an HMD that works in stereo - which most do, but check obviously!)

I was wondering how it would work on a monitor setup. I think you would
need a VR Hood to actually use the full power of the head tracker. I
did some looking and the hoods I found were quite expensive and even the
mid range hoods were low resolution, about 800 X 600 I think. And I
wouldn't really know which hood would be satisfactory as far as picture
quality. It's all new but it looks like something I would like to get
in the future. As I said, the cost of a decent looking hood to use with
a head tracker is kind of high. Have you used the different hood
monitors? If so, which one and what was the quality of the immersion
into the sim?



>
> Now I agree that TrackIR is pretty good, but it's not the same thing as (not
> comparable to) a VR head-tracker... The head-tracker's aim is to actually
> put you 'there' - rather than provide another input device, even though
> TrackIR is intended to give you a link between head-movements and the view
> provided.
>
> The Link you give below (VRTracker) is for a wireless 2DOF head-tracker.
> This is much closer to the Intersense Intertrax2 device. I've not tried the
> VRTracker, so I can't say what the quality is like. However, here are the
> reasons that the Intertrax2 (Itrax2) is better/worse:
> Itrax2 is 3DOF - so it calculates the roll, pitch and yaw of your head
> direction - so in an HMD you really see what you would when you look in a
> particular direction. (This is also an important part of what is called
> 'presence' in the industry/research/government.)
> Itrax2 is not wireless:
>

That would not be a problem in the simulator.


>

> Power: 5v (from USB cable)
> PC Operating Systems: Win98, WinME, Win2000, WinXP.
> PC Compatibility: Mouse emulation or Native mode.
>

What is Native mode?


>
> Best wishes,
> Joel
> p.s. sorry if I've rambled. I hope that this is of some use!
>

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> > Hence, from a subjective point of view, you can't just look to your
right,
> > and see what's on your right as you do in the 'real world'. Instead you
> > move your head (let's say to the right) and the image moves
> > disproportionately in the same direction - but your eyes must always be
> > looking at your screen. (BTW, you really ought to try stereoscopic
systems
> > if you aren't using them already. They really are great. You can
either
> > use shutterglasses [very cheap! £60?] on a CRT monitor with TrackIR, or
use
> > an HMD that works in stereo - which most do, but check obviously!)
>
> I was wondering how it would work on a monitor setup. I think you would
> need a VR Hood to actually use the full power of the head tracker. I
> did some looking and the hoods I found were quite expensive and even the
> mid range hoods were low resolution, about 800 X 600 I think. And I
> wouldn't really know which hood would be satisfactory as far as picture
> quality.

Yes, you would *definately* need an HMD (what you've called a hood) for the
head-tracker. The HMDs cost from around £200 up to tens of thousands.

> It's all new but it looks like something I would like to get
> in the future. As I said, the cost of a decent looking hood to use with
> a head tracker is kind of high. Have you used the different hood
> monitors? If so, which one and what was the quality of the immersion
> into the sim?

I've used a few. At home I have two HMDs (and a nice Itrax2 of my own )
An I-glasses 3D which is old now. (3D means stereoscopic in these HMD
contexts.) It's resolution is low, only about 320x200pixels per screen
(though this is technically doubled as there are two screens with images
from different perspectives.) The field of view is 30 deg.
The other one is an I-glasses SVGA Pro 3D which has a resolution of 800x600
per LCD, so very good resolution (particularly as there's two images!) The
field of view is only 26 deg though, and this (perhaps surprisingly) makes
quite a difference - small to average size text is very hard to read.

Finally, elsewhere I've used a Virtual Research V8 which has a resolution of
640x480. The field of view is 60 deg(!) This is my preferred HMD actually,
but the price is around 10 times the price of the two above (I believe it
costs between £7k and £10k!)

There are many more HMDs available though. Many 2D ones are very cheap
(like the Sony Glasstron - do they make it anymore? - I don't know what it's
specs are) likek £200 or something. Many other 3D ones are around the
£1k-£2k mark.
I'd say the ones below £1k are definately great value for money, @ £1k-£2k
they're average spec'd, and the ones above this price range do get much
better, but at a huge monetary cost (eg. tens of thousands.)
The Itrax2 works great with any HMDs from £200 to £100,000 HMDs. In fact
I'd still say an Itrax2 with a £200 HMD gives you an excellent system (but
definately check the resolution/field-of-view is ok with whatever software
you're using.)


> > Power: 5v (from USB cable)
> > PC Operating Systems: Win98, WinME, Win2000, WinXP.
> > PC Compatibility: Mouse emulation or Native mode.
> >
> What is Native mode?

Native mode means that the software explicitly supports the hardware device
(Microsoft Flight Simulator from v2002 on does this.) If the software
doesn't support the device directly in this way, then you can put the system
into mouse emulation mode, which moves the mouse around as you move your
head. Therefore games that allow you to move the viewing direction by
moving the mouse allow you to look around by just moving your head to the
desired direction.
(NB: a mouse has only 2 degrees of freedom, so you could get pitch and yaw,
but not the 'roll' from it.)


> Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

No problem! I do hope you get to use such a system one day, as they are
phenomenal. But please do be careful not to be scathed by HMD
resolution/field-of-view problems that can occur with reading text from the
a screen - this is something worth checking out before you buy (it is a MUST
in fact.)

Best wishes,
Joel

>
> --
>
> boB,
> SAG 70
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

My problem is that with three screens and earphones on, I already look like
a complete dork to my wife, friends and family. If I went for a hood or
other tracker, I would NEVER be taken seriously EVER again whatever I did or
said...

Cheers
Quilljar


Try 'Living With Technology' magazine
http://www.livtech.co.uk

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

___| reply |__________________________________________________________

My problem is that with three screens and earphones on, I already look
like a complete dork to my wife, friends and family. If I went for a
hood or other tracker, I would NEVER be taken seriously EVER again
whatever I did or said...


_____________________________________________________________________
Yes, that can be a problem. Especially if you put the IR dots on your
forehead. More than once I went to dinner that way... Actually, Track
IR works better if you put the dots on something that sticks out from
your head, e.g., the bill of a hat. I use a sun visor.

How does TIR2 compare with TIR3? I haven't tried 2, so I can only
summarize what I read. Two basic differences: 3 has more resolution and
works better in sunlight. 3 pro also takes more samples per second.
Haven't tried the Vector 6 Degrees of Freedom accessory, so can't
comment on how that works, but here are the product descriptions:
http://www.edimensional.com/index.php?cPath=24 It's probably worth
looking at the "How it works" section to compare it with the VR
displays described above.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> erehwon wrote:
>
>> hi Bob,
>> Thanks for the interesting question. (BTW, the link you provide
>> below is
>> not the Intertrax2 head-tracker - and more importantly it isn't of the
>> same
>> capability... I will try to explain below.)
>>
>> I guess you know what TrackIR does already, but for those who don't, it
>> allows you to pan around using small head movements in the direction
>> you're
>> wanting to look. TrackIR could work with an HMD (VR Head Mounted
>> Display) a
>> little, but once you *rotate*, or *move your head too far* in any
>> direction
>> TrackIR won't work (e.g. it only has a field of view of 30 deg). It's
>> not
>> locked to the direction that your head is rotating, but rather to the
>> movement of it up/down left/right.
>
>>
>> Now I agree that TrackIR is pretty good, but it's not the same thing
>> as (not
>> comparable to) a VR head-tracker... The head-tracker's aim is to
>> actually
>> put you 'there' - rather than provide another input device, even though
>> TrackIR is intended to give you a link between head-movements and the
>> view
>> provided.
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Joel

Joel, what would you buy if you were to use a head tracker with an HMD?
Which HMD and which tracker.

Now put yourself in my place (retired) and what would you think would be
a reasonably priced combination that would provide a satisfactory
immersion. I think my wife has some money in the bank, maybe I could
borrow some.


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[crash]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

boB wrote:
> immersion. I think my wife has some money in the bank, maybe I could
> borrow some.




dreamer......... <G>

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

CRaSH wrote:

> boB wrote:
>
>>immersion. I think my wife has some money in the bank, maybe I could
>>borrow some.
>
>
>
> dreamer......... <G>
>
>

Yea, she's a jewel. Before I met her I was doing ok. I did have a
mortgage that was $600.00 interest a month and $78.00 principle. Also
had several credit cards, visa, sears, etc which was costing me several
hundred dollars a month just to pay the interest with very little going
to lower the debt.

Now we sold that little house in the city, built a large home on 3
acres, installed over 1800 feet of 6 foot chainlink fence to make sure
the dogs were safe and could not get out. We now even lock our front
gate, which we can't see from the house, just because some electric
company guys ignored the sign and walked right into our property. They
were extremely lucky, Psycho Dog was out side, and he's not a friendly
dog to strangers. He flunked his Canine Good Citizenship test, the
evaluator started to pet his ears and Gabriella screamed "NOT HIS HEAD".

We're still not sure why they didn't pass him.

Rambling now, point is Gabriella somehow worked things out and today our
house is paid for, and anything we buy on the credit cards are paid in
full every month. So we pay interest on nothing. Saving those hundreds
of dollars every month is building the savings account quite nicely. I
don't know how she did it.

Here's Psycho Dog
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs34&d=05255&f=meanblitz.jpg

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Joel, what would you buy if you were to use a head tracker with an HMD?
> Which HMD and which tracker.
>
> Now put yourself in my place (retired) and what would you think would be
> a reasonably priced combination that would provide a satisfactory
> immersion. I think my wife has some money in the bank, maybe I could
> borrow some.

I'd love to be able to answer that question, but I really can't. Unless
you're seriously loaded (I'm thinking millionaire) I can only recommend you
go and check out systems before you buy - so that you know what you're
getting for your money.
On the other hand, for £60 I'd definately buy shutterglasses (if you have a
CRT) ) ("cheap and cheerful" as we say here in the UK!)

wishing you the best,
Joel


>
>
> --
>
> boB,
> SAG 70
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

erehwon wrote:

>
> I'd love to be able to answer that question, but I really can't. Unless
> you're seriously loaded (I'm thinking millionaire) I can only recommend you
> go and check out systems before you buy - so that you know what you're
> getting for your money.

I've been looking at some HMD's in the $1000.00 - 1500.00 range, but I
don't know what specs are important.

http://www.i-glassesstore.com/iglassespc-3d.html
http://www.i-glassesstore.com/iglasses-pc-hr.html
http://www.cybermindnl.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=35&category_id=bf6355b6eca2bfcc823985daabcedfbf&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=43


3D capable
Intersense InterTrax2 or i-glasses tracker
http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/io-display/iglassesSVGA.html

From cheap to expensive - which will provide an acceptable display
http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/index.html


Another list of HMD's
http://www.stereo3d.com/hmd.htm#chart

Which would you recommend? And the trackers you have for sale, which
would work well with the HMD.


> On the other hand, for £60 I'd definately buy shutterglasses (if you have a
> CRT) ) ("cheap and cheerful" as we say here in the UK!)
>
> wishing you the best,
> Joel
>
>


I bought the shutter glasses. Even got a second wireless pair and bought
a 19 inch CRT just for the glasses. Looked good on the roller coaster
but I wasn't happy with the glasses in flight sim. I should try them
again just to see if I had something wrong.



boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> wrote in message
news:ieZue.75049$6g3.27140@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> erehwon wrote:
>
> >
> > I'd love to be able to answer that question, but I really can't. Unless
> > you're seriously loaded (I'm thinking millionaire) I can only recommend
you
> > go and check out systems before you buy - so that you know what you're
> > getting for your money.
>
> I've been looking at some HMD's in the $1000.00 - 1500.00 range, but I
> don't know what specs are important.

I'd say, in order (most important first):
Field of View, this is *probably* going to be less than 30 deg. because of
the budget.
3D capability (or maybe this should be higher up the list)
Resolution (I don't know what the lowest workable resolution is for MS
Flight Sim, for me it's 640x480 per eye.)
Weight (1Kg is heavy for 15mins upwards!! But, lighter ones can be worn for
hours if necessary [I've worn a pair of I-glasses for a good part of the
day...)


> From cheap to expensive - which will provide an acceptable display
> http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/index.html
>
>
> Another list of HMD's
> http://www.stereo3d.com/hmd.htm#chart
>
> Which would you recommend? And the trackers you have for sale, which
> would work well with the HMD.

I'd definately have a look at the Icuiti ones I mentioned. They are (if
they simply deliver as promised) amazing at a good price:
http://www.icuiti.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IC&Category_Code=V920
(and no I don't work for them or have shares etc..!)
If the field of view was 30 deg or higher I myself would buy a pair right
now. But I think your budget (and any budget around that price) is limited
to 26 deg equipment.


Oh, and the trackers are probably easier for you to buy in the USA (where
you seem to be based). On the other hand, if you can't find a deal as good
as my offer and you're happy to pay the Post & Packaging, then come back to
me. Itrax2 is definately the way to go.

> > On the other hand, for £60 I'd definately buy shutterglasses (if you
have a
> > CRT) ) ("cheap and cheerful" as we say here in the UK!)
>
> I bought the shutter glasses. Even got a second wireless pair and bought
> a 19 inch CRT just for the glasses. Looked good on the roller coaster
> but I wasn't happy with the glasses in flight sim. I should try them
> again just to see if I had something wrong.

hmm. that is strange. I didn't have any problems with them at all, and have
really enjoyed the 'fish tank VR' as we call it. It really makes the
monitor appear to be a real window into the virtual world - it's eerie even.
I'd try again - check the manuals for setting the inter-pupillary-distance
(IPD) etc., which might have been the problem (if you're using NVidia card,
then check the Windows display properties where it tells you the key
commands to change these values.)

Joel )


> boB,
> SAG 70
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

erehwon wrote:

>
> I'd definately have a look at the Icuiti ones I mentioned. They are (if
> they simply deliver as promised) amazing at a good price:
> http://www.icuiti.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IC&Category_Code=V920
> (and no I don't work for them or have shares etc..!)
> If the field of view was 30 deg or higher I myself would buy a pair right
> now. But I think your budget (and any budget around that price) is limited
> to 26 deg equipment.
>
>

Hi Joel,

I googled the V920 and the first review I read wasn't a very good review.

I have a list from some of the web pages you gave me and the list of
HMD's all say the same thing in a different order. Here's the list I
settled on with the 3D capable HMD's listed first. Can you see any
difference which would make one HMD the best of the bunch? Is the
$1400.00 pair worth the extra cost?

Again, thank you for all your advice and trouble.


List of HMD's
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=2&section=86&function=viewproducts&nodelist=1,83,86

i-glasses PC 3D HR $1,199.00
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=222&section=86&nodelist=1,83,86


i-glasses SVGA 3D PRO $1,499.00
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=362&section=86&nodelist=1,83,86


PCTV-K180 - $1200.00
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=13&section=85&nodelist=1,83,85


i-glasses HRV PRO $1,199.00
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=197&section=85&nodelist=1,83,85


i-glasses SVGA PRO $1,199.00
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=361&section=85&nodelist=1,83,85


i-glasses HRV PRO $1199.00
http://www.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=197&section=85&nodelist=1,83,85






--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Bob]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

For Joel and anyone else interested. I found what looks to be a good
value for a head mounted display. Here's the pros and cons

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pros
Full 3D stereovision (800 x 3 x 600) with hi-fi sound and built in noise
canceling mike.

High-contrast displays delivering more than 16.7 million colors at
>200:1 ratio.

360 degree horizontal and more than 60 degree vertical head-tracking
built in.

Lightweight (<8 oz) visor, USB-powered and PC compatible

Full SVGA stereovision (800 x 3 x 600) OLEDs

40 deg FOV

Only $899.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cons:

Only connects to a pc. So watching movies have to be played through the
computer. Maybe that's not too much of a problem.

Here's a cheesy demo:
http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/assets/emagin.swf
http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/html/demo.htm

The web page
http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/html/product.htm

Joel, what do you think?


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

It looks really great actually! The thing I'd be most concerned about is
the tracking ) But regardless, it does *look like the one* to buy
(though neither of us have tested it out yet...hmm). If the tracking is
rubbish I can always strap on my Itrax2 - but you should check out the
emagin tracker first-hand.
Another potential problem can be flickery displays. However, this is
typically fixed by simply increasing the refresh rate (my I-glasses run at
120Hz which of course means no perceptible flicker.)

So, now we just need to both go and test one of these for real.

I'm currently looking for a new HMD anyhow - so I will check this one out as
soon as I get time (though probably not until August! ( The market has
suddenly started to move quickly though, so it's worth keeping an eye out
for what's about to appear. Isn't it a pain when you buy something and a
much better model appears right after? But who can help this from
happening?!)

Oh, and one other thing: if it connects to your VGA out, then you can buy a
converter to convert a VCR output to VGA, then it will work. You will also
need left/right audio as well. The downside of this is that you end up with
lots of wires everywhere and setup overheads - so it can still be a pain. I
have one of these and it costs ~£90.

One last URL I found:
http://vresources.jump-gate.com/articles/vre_articles/analyhmd/analysis.htm

(though I'm not convinced that high-resolution is of that much value [any
value] if the FOV isn't wide, as you just end up with indiscernable
pixels... I'd MUCH rather have [or err on the side of] low res and high
FOV.)

best wishes,
Joel


"boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> wrote in message
news:42BCF8EF.8090308@excite.Icom...
> For Joel and anyone else interested. I found what looks to be a good
> value for a head mounted display. Here's the pros and cons
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pros
> Full 3D stereovision (800 x 3 x 600) with hi-fi sound and built in noise
> canceling mike.
>
> High-contrast displays delivering more than 16.7 million colors at
> >200:1 ratio.
>
> 360 degree horizontal and more than 60 degree vertical head-tracking
> built in.
>
> Lightweight (<8 oz) visor, USB-powered and PC compatible
>
> Full SVGA stereovision (800 x 3 x 600) OLEDs
>
> 40 deg FOV
>
> Only $899.00
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cons:
>
> Only connects to a pc. So watching movies have to be played through the
> computer. Maybe that's not too much of a problem.
>
> Here's a cheesy demo:
> http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/assets/emagin.swf
> http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/html/demo.htm
>
> The web page
> http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/html/product.htm
>
> Joel, what do you think?
>
>
> --
>
> boB,
> SAG 70
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

 

[Erehwon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

be careful... (did I say that already?)


"erehwon" <duff@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d9j60q$28a$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> It looks really great actually! The thing I'd be most concerned about is
> the tracking ) But regardless, it does *look like the one* to buy
> (though neither of us have tested it out yet...hmm). If the tracking is
> rubbish I can always strap on my Itrax2 - but you should check out the
> emagin tracker first-hand.
> Another potential problem can be flickery displays. However, this is
> typically fixed by simply increasing the refresh rate (my I-glasses run at
> 120Hz which of course means no perceptible flicker.)
>
> So, now we just need to both go and test one of these for real.
>
> I'm currently looking for a new HMD anyhow - so I will check this one out
as
> soon as I get time (though probably not until August! ( The market has
> suddenly started to move quickly though, so it's worth keeping an eye out
> for what's about to appear. Isn't it a pain when you buy something and a
> much better model appears right after? But who can help this from
> happening?!)
>
> Oh, and one other thing: if it connects to your VGA out, then you can buy
a
> converter to convert a VCR output to VGA, then it will work. You will
also
> need left/right audio as well. The downside of this is that you end up
with
> lots of wires everywhere and setup overheads - so it can still be a pain.
I
> have one of these and it costs ~£90.
>
> One last URL I found:
>
http://vresources.jump-gate.com/articles/vre_articles/analyhmd/analysis.htm
>
> (though I'm not convinced that high-resolution is of that much value [any
> value] if the FOV isn't wide, as you just end up with indiscernable
> pixels... I'd MUCH rather have [or err on the side of] low res and high
> FOV.)
>
> best wishes,
> Joel
>
>
> "boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> wrote in message
> news:42BCF8EF.8090308@excite.Icom...
> > For Joel and anyone else interested. I found what looks to be a good
> > value for a head mounted display. Here's the pros and cons
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Pros
> > Full 3D stereovision (800 x 3 x 600) with hi-fi sound and built in noise
> > canceling mike.
> >
> > High-contrast displays delivering more than 16.7 million colors at
> > >200:1 ratio.
> >
> > 360 degree horizontal and more than 60 degree vertical head-tracking
> > built in.
> >
> > Lightweight (<8 oz) visor, USB-powered and PC compatible
> >
> > Full SVGA stereovision (800 x 3 x 600) OLEDs
> >
> > 40 deg FOV
> >
> > Only $899.00
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Cons:
> >
> > Only connects to a pc. So watching movies have to be played through the
> > computer. Maybe that's not too much of a problem.
> >
> > Here's a cheesy demo:
> > http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/assets/emagin.swf
> > http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/html/demo.htm
> >
> > The web page
> > http://www.emagin.com/3dvisor/html/product.htm
> >
> > Joel, what do you think?
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > boB,
> > SAG 70
> >
> > U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> > Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d9ebdb$msn$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> My problem is that with three screens and earphones on, I already look
> like a complete dork to my wife, friends and family. If I went for a hood
> or other tracker, I would NEVER be taken seriously EVER again whatever I
> did or said...
>
> Cheers
> Quilljar

Where most of us figure things like this is that our wives already don't
take us seriously , so no matter what we do it looks normal to them
Dudley

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

LOL, Have any of you who have told your friends about simming got any of
them interested??? Not only do they not get involved they look at me like
I'm nuts and can't understand my enjoyment in flying on the computer.

Mark G
Not4wood

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
news:Cfgve.11406$pa3.3716@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:d9ebdb$msn$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> My problem is that with three screens and earphones on, I already look
>> like a complete dork to my wife, friends and family. If I went for a hood
>> or other tracker, I would NEVER be taken seriously EVER again whatever I
>> did or said...
>>
>> Cheers
>> Quilljar
>
> Where most of us figure things like this is that our wives already don't
> take us seriously , so no matter what we do it looks normal to them
> Dudley
>