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Next VGA chart for AGP cards

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April 2, 2006 11:49:20 PM

Does anyone know when the next VGA chart update will be done for AGP cards?

More about : vga chart agp cards

April 3, 2006 5:43:04 AM

Don't bother for VGA chart... if you have AGP 8x 3.0, go get the GForce 7800GS ... believe me, it's worth it!! 8O
April 3, 2006 12:01:47 PM

It depends on what you want to do with your current system. I would go for a mid range AGP card now and maybe later buy a top of the line PCI-E with a whole new setup once Conroe and AM2 comes out.
Related resources
April 4, 2006 1:15:32 AM

I was looking at mid range, maybe a x1600, x700, 6600gt
a b U Graphics card
April 4, 2006 1:23:22 AM

Simple IMO;

GF6600 < X700 < X700Pro < GF6600GT < X1600 < X800GT < X1600Pro < X800GTO = GF6800GS < X800Pro < X800XL = GF6800GT < X800XT

All depends on the price you find them at, and also the games you play, and prices you find them at.
April 4, 2006 1:38:34 AM

This is why we have THE SHORT LIST: Best gaming video cards for the money.
:D 

TheGreatGrapeApe wrote:
Quote:
GF6600 < X700 < X700Pro < GF6600GT < X1600 < X800GT < X1600Pro < X800GTO = GF6800GS < X800Pro < X800XL = GF6800GT < X800XT


I concur.
April 4, 2006 2:12:15 AM

i really think ATI and nvidia will still make AGP cards


freakin Nvidia 8000gs-ultra

-heh 8O
a b U Graphics card
April 4, 2006 3:46:49 AM

Quote:
Simple IMO;

GF6600 < X700 < X700Pro < GF6600GT < X1600 < X800GT < X1600Pro < X800GTO = GF6800GS < X800Pro < X800XL = GF6800GT < X800XT

All depends on the price you find them at, and also the games you play, and prices you find them at.

Are the X1600's really that good? I have an AGP X1600 pro 256MB but haven't had a chance to use it yet. I was thinking it would fall between a 9800 pro and 6600GT. If it's better than a 6600GT then it's not a bad buy priced under $130.
a b U Graphics card
April 4, 2006 3:58:28 AM

Depends alot on the game, but in most cases I see the X1600Pro outperforming the GF6600GT, and in the newer cases the X1600 outperforming the GF6600GT. However it is a stange card in that it'll perform all over the map, and the plain X1600 I'd be ok with puting between the GF6600GT and X700Pro or even just below the pro depending on how it's used. The thing about the plain X1600 is that they are usually quite overclockable so it help a bit too.
a b U Graphics card
April 4, 2006 4:19:40 AM

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

Wow, 12 pipe, 256-bit, 256MB, but not sure on the mem clocks. Is it 980 like the normal 256MB ones or 700 MHz like the 128MB ones? If it's the higher speed mem, this is one killer $145 AGP card for right now and I'd buy one. Most GTO's are in the upper $170's with the 6800GS around $200+
a b U Graphics card
April 4, 2006 5:19:14 AM

I don't know, the only mention I saw of speed in other sellers was 392mhz memory as well, but that's likely a typo.

Even Abit's site says nothing about it other than it's ultra-fast GDDR3 (which really isn't need for just 300-400mhz so who knows).
April 4, 2006 1:34:03 PM

I would rate them the following way:

1600xt>6600gt>1600pro>700

btw don't really know if there is such a thing as a 1600xt for agp :roll:

You could try buying a 6800 and unlocking it
April 4, 2006 1:43:06 PM

2nd that, unlocked 6800 = best value for money.. Asus even made a 512mb variant for a descent price
April 4, 2006 2:17:41 PM

Becareful of those ASUS 512MB cards a lot of them are equiped with plain DDR instead of DDR3
April 4, 2006 5:47:21 PM

the vanilla 6800 uses ddr1
a b U Graphics card
April 4, 2006 9:52:32 PM

Quote:
Becareful of those ASUS 512MB cards a lot of them are equiped with plain DDR instead of DDR3

The Asus 512MB 6800 that is popular now is a piece of junk. It has a cripple 128-bit mem inteface ans SLOW clock speeds to poor salt into the massive wound.
April 5, 2006 2:08:54 AM

Good point.
April 5, 2006 2:26:21 AM

uhh... scary, you are right about that. They even used the "super fast" ddr2 for it, i can see.

the whole asus 6800 line didn't make much sence to anyone, so i guess this latecommer is no different.

i still think he should go for a 6800/6800GT, hell even an LE in the price is right. The Asus 6800GT is build on 6800-Ultra PCB and has two molex power connecters and is known it OC and vMod like.. great.
April 5, 2006 9:49:14 AM

Man how did I miss that :oops: 

Anyway I think the best bet would be a 6800le. Since it's an AGP card u should be able to unclock it. Most bang for the buck IMHO
April 6, 2006 5:43:17 PM

Quote:
Die, AGP!



Ah, another PCIe user still insecure from the majority AGP market share.
April 6, 2006 5:53:37 PM

agp will die once vista comes out. Its only a matter of time before it goes out. I pitty all who has an agp card :( 
April 6, 2006 6:42:31 PM

Quote:
agp will die once vista comes out. Its only a matter of time before it goes out. I pitty all who has an agp card :( 


Just a matter of time...blah, blah, blah. Just wait till the 939 socket comes out blah, blah, blah. Now the excuse is "just wait for Vista.....DELAYED.
:wink:

You sound like a Cubs fan.

Must be hard to see Nvidia release new agp cards, eh?

(yawn) :lol: 

Again, PCIe is theoretically a better platform over AGP. Of course the real and ONLY reason to use PCIe is for an SLI setup...which costs $$$$ and MOST USERS don't throw that kind of money at their systems. Crossfire is still an incomplete setup compared to SLI.

If you compare cards with their direct equivalents in each format the supposed advantage of PCIe is slight. Given that this generation of PCIe cards no longer have direct AGP equivalents, you could say the arguement is mood. However, it is interesting to see the lengths some chip makers/vendors have gone to hype the "moderate" advantages of PCIe over AGP.

However, the new entry by Gainward shows that a genuine 7 series GT can be bridged over to AGP.
April 6, 2006 6:52:02 PM

X600, no wonder you're angry.
April 6, 2006 6:59:45 PM

He should have saved the $$$ he spent on the 19" LCD and at least got himself an X1600Pro !!! :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
April 6, 2006 7:40:27 PM

My OP-onion is simple,

when AGP dies, nV and ATi can focus on just one product line and stop worrying about sharing resources for R&D & support.

Just look at all the reviews out there, it's DAMN hard to find AGP ones nowadays.

Soon it will die and we can all be on the same page.

Luddites! :tongue:
April 6, 2006 7:43:23 PM

Quote:
agp will die once vista comes out. Its only a matter of time before it goes out. I pitty all who has an agp card :( 


Why pity? All us AGP users are somehow stuck??? :roll:

We can, umm whats that word, upgrade?

The simple fact is that no matter WHAT Vista is, ATi and Nvdia will STILL continue to make AGP cards, or they will lose a LOT of customers...

Now, I dont know if they will always make the newst and the best in AGP.... but they will keep making them.

Not everyone is an extremist! You have to remember that most users are NOT using the best mobos and things like that.

IN the world of EXTREME gaming, agp will die very soon...

But in the real world, its going to be a cheap, viable alternative for gaming. Oblivion sales have been HURT because it's too heavy on the requirements.

Future games have to take this into consideration, especially with the console market about to EXPLODE with PS3 and Revolution.... PC game makers are going to have to support computers as they are now.

Heres the deal, the reason Oblivion is such a high-end game is because it was developed for the Xbox360. Its not lucrative enough for game makers to make MAJOR games that cannot play on consoles.... or be MMORPGs

So that means Oblivion should be the benchmark for awhile... Consoles are out, or on their way, so the games should be at that level. It's not like games are going to keep escalating dramatically in graphics details. They will some, but too much.
April 6, 2006 8:10:17 PM

Got a point thur.. Customers who are willing to pay top $$$$ will get the best, but still agp will be around for a while, customers who cant afford PCIe settings will stick w/ agp.
-Good Luck 2 all- :D 
April 6, 2006 8:31:01 PM

Quote:
My OP-onion is simple,

when AGP dies, nV and ATi can focus on just one product line and stop worrying about sharing resources for R&D & support.

Just look at all the reviews out there, it's DAMN hard to find AGP ones nowadays.

Soon it will die and we can all be on the same page.

Luddites! :tongue:


yeah...your opinion is simple. and name calling too! how insecure!

Could it be you were one of those unfortunate people to have a system using the old VL Local Bus instead of AGP? :wink:

I can easily find 6 companies selling a 7800GS and 6800GS cards. Maybe you were thinking of ATi agp options??? hmmm??

On 2/12/06 Benjamin Sun reviewed the XFX 7800GS for Motherboards.org and said the following:
Quote:
There's still an upgrade market for the AGP user. After all there's literally hundreds of millions of systems based upon the old standard still in use today.


Maybe Ape you should be attacking websites for reviewing these cards and the companies for daring to sell such things in this day and age!!
a b U Graphics card
April 6, 2006 10:05:27 PM

Quote:

yeah...your opinion is simple. and name calling too! how insecure!


Wow I guess the tongue wasn't enough to let you in on the sarcasm, but that's ok n00b, you don't know the history of this story, and the reality is your arguments are pointless since they are those of the carriage wheel maker/owner defending their choice.

Quote:
Could it be you were one of those unfortunate people to have a system using the old VL Local Bus instead of AGP? :wink:


Or could it be that I've moved on, and embrace new technology and change, unlike you?

Quote:
I can easily find 6 companies selling a 7800GS and 6800GS cards. Maybe you were thinking of ATi agp options??? hmmm??


No maybe I was thinking that the GS sucks compared to the best both comapnies has to offer. The X850XT comes close to match it's stock performance and only the Gainwards come close to their GT (not GTX counterparts). So perhaps you're confusing best with

Quote:
There's still an upgrade market for the AGP user. After all there's literally hundreds of millions of systems based upon the old standard still in use today.


And there's probably millions fo ISA equipped MoBos too, doesn't make them worth building new gear for.

Quote:
Maybe Ape you should be attacking websites for reviewing these cards and the companies for daring to sell such things in this day and age!!


Maybe you should quite your whining and step into the future with the rest of us, so that way the cost of new cards isn't dragged down with the baggage of the old. The train has already left the station, you can sit there wondering why they aren't bringing out GF7900s and X1900s or you can realize that for the price of the terrible GF7800GS, you can buy a new MoBo with PCIe and a far better card for the same price.

Of course that wouldn't be as much fun as watching you defend the horse and buggy in the time of the hybrid car. :roll:

Jacobian Luddite! :twisted:
April 6, 2006 10:20:41 PM

That would be thinking, mostly not allowed lol.
April 7, 2006 8:12:43 PM

WOW, I didn't think a simple question was going to get people arguing.
I have been looking at some more cards and can get an ATI X850PRO for 300 CDN. Goes on sale for 250 usually. I do some gaming (no specific tpye) and have a 19" LCD monitor at 1280 X 1024 res. Would this be a good all round card?
Thanks.
April 10, 2006 7:19:07 AM

That is a good card at a good price. Go for it!
April 10, 2006 6:12:51 PM

Tongue? More like keyboard since people cannot guess as to you frame of mind (or lack there of) with posts. If you were being sarcastic, then your intent was poorly communicated. This is often the case with my students. A common occourance.
a b U Graphics card
April 10, 2006 7:55:56 PM

Quote:
Tongue? More like keyboard since people cannot guess as to you frame of mind (or lack there of) with posts. If you were being sarcastic, then your intent was poorly communicated. This is often the case with my students. A common occourance.


Ahh, I see a pedantic proffesore who still hasn't grasped the idea that communication involves two people. You alone do not dictate the rules or methods of communication, nor do I, and unlike your serfs.... errr students, your inabilities are not our problem.
The message contained within the post remains the same, the resources used to support AGP by the Mfrs is a drag on progress, any new efforts other than continued driver support are a waste. Those who refuse to upgrade and move on should be left to their limited choices and forced to upgrade once the applications overwhelm their hardware, especially who willfully resist in spite of logical benifits, just like the luddites of old.

You may have missed the subtilties of tone and sarcasm within my post, as it was meant to be both factual and humourous, but I think this :tongue: was very clear to all but the most sheltered internet users.

Perhaps you simply need to upgrade not only your hardware (oh wise choice an FX :roll: [<- sarcasm] ), but also your skills like so many instructors I've met; who seem to think that the world still functions as when they first started. Perhaps a refresher is in order, hmmm? A common occurance among staid pedantic proffessors.

Ciaola Proffesore!

Oh, yes, and once again; Die AGP Die! (<- no sarcasm ).
April 10, 2006 8:13:47 PM

Quote:
He should have saved the $$$ he spent on the 19" LCD and at least got himself an X1600Pro !!! :lol: 


The LCD was a bar mitzvah present. And you can't imagine how big an upgrade even the X600 was, compared to my old P4 1.6GHz, 256MB DDR266, GF2, and 40GB Seagate.

But my computer is broken right now; the CPU was damaged from heat, so now I'm debating over the A64 3700+ or the X2 3800+.
April 10, 2006 8:16:55 PM

Quote:
Tongue? More like keyboard since people cannot guess as to you frame of mind (or lack there of) with posts. If you were being sarcastic, then your intent was poorly communicated. This is often the case with my students. A common occourance.


Ahh, I see a pedantic proffesore who still hasn't grasped the idea that communication involves two people. You alone do not dictate the rules or methods of communication, nor do I, and unlike your serfs.... errr students, your inabilities are not our problem.
The message contained within the post remains the same, the resources used to support AGP by the Mfrs is a drag on progress, any new efforts other than continued driver support are a waste. Those who refuse to upgrade and move on should be left to their limited choices and forced to upgrade once the applications overwhelm their hardware, especially who willfully resist in spite of logical benifits, just like the luddites of old.

You may have missed the subtilties of tone and sarcasm within my post, as it was meant to be both factual and humourous, but I think this :tongue: was very clear to all but the most sheltered internet users.

Perhaps you simply need to upgrade not only your hardware (oh wise choice an FX :roll: [<- sarcasm] ), but also your skills like so many instructors I've met; who seem to think that the world still functions as when they first started. Perhaps a refresher is in order, hmmm? A common occurance among staid pedantic proffessors.

Ciaola Proffesore!

Oh, yes, and once again; Die AGP Die! (<- no sarcasm ).

LOL; Mach5 just got pwn3d
April 10, 2006 8:19:38 PM

Quote:
He should have saved the $$$ he spent on the 19" LCD and at least got himself an X1600Pro !!! :lol: 


And you should save the $300 you'll spend on a 7800GS and use it on a gun to kill yourself. EVOLVE OR DIE! that means change from your crappy FX (which BTW means Fuck3d to the [/b]Xtreme.
April 10, 2006 8:25:17 PM

Quote:
He should have saved the $$$ he spent on the 19" LCD and at least got himself an X1600Pro !!! :lol: 


And a "new" socket 478 P4 and an AGP motherboard so that I could properly bottleneck it, right?
April 10, 2006 8:48:35 PM

Concur 100%. And to reinforce the no performance increase, just look at SLi. It is in irony that the reason why PCI-e exists is also the reason why it shows that it has no performance increase by the new slot. If you remember the days before the A8N32-SLi, all GPU's would run on 8x when in SLi, the same rate of transfer of AGP. Now AGP 4x will show loss of speed, but AGP 8x still owns. And I am ashamed of all those companies who put in the 7800GS. Overall it is a good card and is keep ing AGP alive, but it isn't a direct alternative. It is clocked lower than the GT and I believe it also has less shader vertecies. The core is clocked lower and you lose 4 pixel pipelines Makes me sick why they would do that, just clock it like the GT and it'll all be good and fine. Minus that, the 7800GS is a very good card by itself. On a side note, I will stand by my GeForce 4 Ti 4600 to the grave!

~Ibrahim~
April 10, 2006 11:44:02 PM

Quote:
On a side note, I will stand by my GeForce 4 Ti 4600 to the grave!


Just like I'll stand by the GeForce 2 Ti300/400 (I can't remember which) in my old PC which is now the family computer. That thing owned back in its day, especially with the smokin' 1.6GHz P4 Williamtte and DDR266.
April 11, 2006 1:01:20 PM

Wanna buy a PCI card ??? MX5200/Radeon9000 still available...

look how long it took for PCI to virtually disappear... AGP will be around until the next chipset for Intel/AMD... odds-on, none of their boards will sport agp, it WILL be PCI-E only...

as users upgrade, AGP will slowly slide out of view... but there is a lot of baords still out there supporting the latest processors & fast memory

Also, Nividia/ATi said they would not release any of their latest boards for AGP but look what happened... GF6/7 series & X850 & X1600 on AGP !!!
April 11, 2006 5:42:17 PM

Quote:

Ahh, I see a pedantic proffesore who still hasn't grasped the idea that communication involves two people. You alone do not dictate the rules or methods of communication, nor do I, and unlike your serfs.... errr students, your inabilities are not our problem.


Guess you're never heard of group communication? It involves more than two people. A forum such as this is not for just two people. Although it shows your defensive posture.

Dictate rules? Students as serfs? My, my! Such an enlighted perspective from Canada! Your educational experience must have been straight out of Pink Floyd's The Wall :p  But you digress from the issue into an ad hominem response. (sigh) :cry: 

I see the term Luddite returns. Somehow my 5900XT has conjured such anger! wow.
a b U Graphics card
April 11, 2006 9:40:54 PM

Quote:
Guess you're never heard of group communication?


Sounds more like group think, and that's not really a great thing.

Quote:
I see the term Luddite returns.


Neve left, re-read the posts. And if you want research even further back this is not the only thread in which I've used it. Let go, move on.

Quote:
Somehow my 5900XT has conjured such anger! wow.


No, once again you add your own feelings into it, the only thing your posession of the FX does is put into context your comments, and the reality of your situation, you didn't even upgrade to a better AGP card 2 generations later so who care what you think about the future of AGP/PCIe?

You'd have much more credibility if it were even a plain GF6600 you owned. The PCIe/AGP debate is one that is not as pertient to you as it is to someone who has a GF6800U with their quaity CPU/MoBo, and even for thos people with S939/940, S754, and the P4s they still have better options.

AGP is dead, to live with it and stop dragging the rest of the true enthusiasts down with you, and that goes for all those who keep harping about AGP.

Resistance is futile, you're presence may be large, but new purchases AGP is falling fast, and is already below PCIe. It's just a matter of time.
April 11, 2006 10:29:38 PM

Quote:


Resistance is futile, you're presence may be large, but new purchases AGP is falling fast, and is already below PCIe. It's just a matter of time.



Resistance is futile, but my stubborn mind will eat you and pessimistical thoughts for breakfast! (lol, jk)

Of course people aren't buying AGP anymore, it has fallen into the deep depths of "old" technology. I am just claiming that the AGP-to-PCI-e change had no practical reason, except SLi which I do not believe too many people have...You may have SLi boards, yet how many actually have two cards running in tandem? There is a smidgen of use in it under the theory that those with one card would use AGP 8x while those opting for SLi would be forced over to PCI-e x16 and the confusion may be too much for some people, or the compromises that might have to be made.

Those few who are "true" enthusiasts, SLi was created for them. Only recently has the mainstream even thought about using it, and the irony is that it is so much more practical for them. A 7900GTX is a pretty fast card alone, no doubt about it, and two are hardly nessecary except for playing at extreme resolutions with high AA/AF, while on the other hand a 6600GT is a mainstream, reasonable card but with the resolution turned up and a little AA/AF it'll start to lag on newer games and a second would certianly come in handy.BTW, PCI-e was created for SATA ports, dual GB ethernet, etc. to be able to be made on a card so that if you needed extra SATA ports, you would not be forced to upgrade to a new motherboard. GPU's were more of an extra idea as AGP is certainly not a bottle neck. PCIe for GPU's would have better implemented if there was a true need for it, when we actually needed that much bandwidth. With that, I can gurantee that PCI-e x16 motherboards would have sold so many more units when it was proven that PCI-e x16 was viable. Good night, and good luck.

~Ibrahim~

P.S. Anything can be accomplished if it was only a "matter of time". (No offense meant)
a b U Graphics card
April 11, 2006 11:33:14 PM

Quote:
Quote:

Resistance is futile, but my stubborn mind will eat you and pessimistical thoughts for breakfast! (lol, jk)


May starve I'm rarely a pessimist except for when it comes to stopping the natural progress of things, it's like trying to tell people CRT is better than (current) LCD, Plasma, DLP, LCOS for qualiyy imaging. Doesn't matter how correct that statement may be, people are buying LCD, and soon even quality CRT at ridiculous premiums will be hard to come by and the imaging proffesionals can only hope that white LED backlight LCDs, OLEDs and flat EMDs can do as good a job. Eventually they will surpass any CRT we have now, but they need to get a move on for some of us since even Sony has stopped making their professional series tubes and they are rebranding lessr quality now.

Quote:
Of course people aren't buying AGP anymore, it has fallen into the deep depths of "old" technology. I am just claiming that the AGP-to-PCI-e change had no practical reason, except SLi which I do not believe too many people have...You may have SLi boards, yet how many actually have two cards running in tandem?


There are a few other practical reasons, like ease of design, flexibility of power useage (1X one moment 16X the next), future scalability (while right now 8X may be fine, what about next gneration), and would that have meant an AGP 12X or 16X anyways? What about HyperMemory and Turbo cache, no way AGP could've handled that.
Also depending on the application 8X was already nearing saturation point in workstation apps according to Sudhain's investigation just before the launch of PCIe.

Quote:
There is a smidgen of use in it under the theory that those with one card would use AGP 8x while those opting for SLi would be forced over to PCI-e x16 and the confusion may be too much for some people, or the compromises that might have to be made.


But like you say that's a minority of the PCIe users, however even still to the MFRs those users are far more valuable than those still wishing AGP were around and refusing to upgrade. Look at it from a marketing perspective of someone in the middle. Do you understand the MFR's desire to move to a single production line? Do you understand some people's resistance? Do you then take that into account and buy transition products like the AsRock S939 Mobo or the myriad of other socket PCIe mobos to allow people to keep the rest of their rigs when they finally decide to move?

Quote:
Those few who are "true" enthusiasts, SLi was created for them. Only recently has the mainstream even thought about using it, and the irony is that it is so much more practical for them.


Not really, more on that in a moment.

Quote:
A 7900GTX is a pretty fast card alone, no doubt about it, and two are hardly nessecary except for playing at extreme resolutions with high AA/AF, while on the other hand a 6600GT is a mainstream, reasonable card but with the resolution turned up and a little AA/AF it'll start to lag on newer games and a second would certianly come in handy.


Except that it shares that 128MB, therefore still is both resolution and AA limited. Also if you sell that old GF6600GT and put the money you would've spent on another GT and the SLi MoBo, you can probably get a far faster single card. That is similar to the situation confronting most AGP users, instead of wasting money on that terrible plain GF7800GS for $300, spend $75-100 on a new PCIe MoBo for your socket (Socket A/S423 need not apply) and then spend the remaining money on a PCIe card that will far outperform, and give you the future upgrade path you have to bite the bullet on anyways. And then when time to upgrade your card again, the future value of your true GF7800GT will be more than the GF7800GS that no one really needs anymore.

Quote:
BTW, PCI-e was created for SATA ports, dual GB ethernet, etc. to be able to be made on a card so that if you needed extra SATA ports, you would not be forced to upgrade to a new motherboard.


Nope, PCI-X already did that long before PCie.

Quote:
GPU's were more of an extra idea as AGP is certainly not a bottle neck.


Nope, from it's early days, shortly after inception/conception 3GIO meant to be the unifiying replacement for all things, only AMD's hypertransport concept would've split things again, which IMO is part of the reason they lost the race.

Quote:
PCIe for GPU's would have better implemented if there was a true need for it, when we actually needed that much bandwidth.


no it would've been far better implemented if like so many things before it you didn't have these weak fallbacks. The failure of the prescott as the launch vehicle for PCIe didn't help much either. Without an S939 mobo with PCIe there was no drive to adopt since the AMD64s were kicking the Prescott's but, and without that push everyone's left wondering what to do. Keep buying the better performing AMD64 and the current AGP cards, or buy an underperforming socket to anticipate the video card upgrade path. Neither Intel not AMD make their dual core or 64 bit parts in socket A or socket 423/478 format, but you don't seem to see people screaming about that? Why, because you know they don't care, you know they are moving and so should you. On a socket 754? Expecting duo core are you? Good lluck with that!

Quote:
With that, I can gurantee that PCI-e x16 motherboards would have sold so many more units when it was proven that PCI-e x16 was viable.


Viability had nothing to do withit, they would have sold many more if prescott had thumped the AMD64s, and had PCIe been brought to S939 at the same time. If the performance and heat situation were reversed I doubt we'd have seen the GF7800Gs, nor even the X850XT-AGP, and we likely wouldn't be having this conversation either. It's mainly because of that one mis-step that PCIe failed to launch properly. Without that I doubt ATi would've even bothered to implement Rialto in their X700s, and nV would've move on as well. Instead the based for S939+AGP got slightly larger, and thus created many more people who had just upgraded and didn't want to again.

As much as people complain about he transition, at this point in time it's purely economics, you get a better bang for your buck with PCIe and it's cheaper for the MFRs to produce just PCIe. You can still stick with AGP in the middle/muddle performance range, but there's no incentive for AGP development anymore, not for MFRs nor the consumer, and likely extending more lifesavers like the GF7800GS just makes the situation worse, not improve it. No wonder it was nV's OEM partners that pushed for it, they are looking for the quick buck whether it's ATi, nV, XGi/S3, Via.

If you can give me one logical reason why AGP > PCIe then perhaps your argument would have a leg to stand on, but as I doubt there is that reason (other than reticence/resistance to upgrade) then the argument's more about people than about the technology, and like I said before, the rest of us don't care if they get passed by, we just want to stop hearing the constant whining and bitching from the admitted peanut gallery, and for the MFR to keep rewarding those who buy the most new products and pay for the future R&D. AGP is the past in both sales and technology, nothing to gain by focusing on that.

"Hello AGP laggards, let me introduce you to the ISA fan club, they will be able to help you through your transition as they've been there and done that. They're likely also the only people who really empathize with your situation."

Once again, it's done, move on, upgrade and be done with it, the AsRock S939 SATA2 board is perfect AM2 support, and AGP+PCIe, what more could you want?
April 12, 2006 12:54:29 AM

Well, I'd like alot of things in life, but I think you've made me a convert. I've heard of a few boards with both AGP/PCI-e...Asrock seems like the best option. I second your opinion on it'd be better spending money on a cheap/mainstream mobo and then getting a PCI-e card, rather than spending cash on that bloody ripoff GS version. I'm sick of this AGP BS that they do with that card. More of a mockery of AGP than to keep it live. Is PCI-X available on most motherboards? I was always under the impression that it was aimed at the servers? But now PCI-e is now in smaller lanes, such as 1x and 4x to take care of that. PCIe was aimed at the entire slot market? Far-fetched dream, eh? Well, just for old times sake, I am now complaining that Intel doesn't make any more CPUs on the 478 socket! Lol, just kidding. When you say that it is cheaper for manufacturers to prduce just PCIe, would it have also been easier to just produce AGP? (That sentence is still with my pro-AGP ideas) Lol, I think my last mobo had an ISA socket!

Also, does that AsRock motherboard have an impact on performance when using the port to get AM2? Cuz it may be my new board, as long as it can overclock...

~Ibrahim~
a b U Graphics card
April 12, 2006 1:21:16 AM

Quote:
Is PCI-X available on most motherboards? I was always under the impression that it was aimed at the servers?


No but could've been implemented as easily if there was a need. And you were talking about pretty speciallized parts like gigabit ethernet, sata raid cards, etc. Even now those are mainly for workstations. BTW, my previous editing rig had 2 PCI-Z slots, never used them, but nice to have anyways just in case I wanted to go with scsi raid.

Quote:
But now PCI-e is now in smaller lanes, such as 1x and 4x to take care of that. PCIe was aimed at the entire slot market? Far-fetched dream, eh?


Well the funny thing is alot of even the 'inegrated/onboard stuff rides on PCIe lanes, so it's not too, bad, but I don't think they realistically thought PCIe would replace ATA/SATA/SCSI, but it was mentioned that it could be all things to all people, and if there weren't the issues of legacy hardware, who knows they probably could've done it with most given enough lanes.

Quote:
When you say that it is cheaper for manufacturers to prduce just PCIe, would it have also been easier to just produce AGP?


Not at the chip level. The support for PCIe can replace PCI and AGP simulataneously, and even work seemlessly with PCI really, without much work. PCI and AGP were always at odds, as was PCIe and AGP working off the same chip, even with ULi it's PCIe and PCI through the Northbridge, then it communicates to the southbridge (via PCI-X actually) which then communicates to AGP. Everything else can be supported just from the northbridge alone. so cost of production can be 1 stop shopping if properly implemented and you don't need to support the legacy gear.

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Lol, I think my last mobo had an ISA socket!


Yeah last summer I rebuilt a friend's sister-in-law's computer and add an old Creative Labs 16bit ISA sound card! 8O

Quote:
Also, does that AsRock motherboard have an impact on performance when using the port to get AM2?


Don't know yet, but it's almos certainly going to perform below the best strictly X2 solutions as they will support DDR2, while the ASRock will be feeding the AM2 plain DDR across it's riser. But it's not meant to be the best, it's mean to give you that bridge between, oh damn I need another new MoBo and, "I can buy an AM2 chip now (cause it's quad core or whatever) and then upgrade everything later." But once again, maybe it ends up being like the GF7800Gs, where the AM2 on that riser with plain DDR just doesn't perform anywhere near what it does on the true AM2 solutions, in which case it's better to upgrade with soe cheap DDR2. Who know until they actually arrive and get beyond introductory performance.

Also who knows, with Conroe's potential performance, maybe we won't be considering the AM2 when it's time to upgrade again. The main thing is that it's nice to have options, especially from a MoBo that doesn't cost that much.

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Cuz it may be my new board, as long as it can overclock...


It can overclock, but it's mild compared to the DFI etc. so be sure to check and see if it's within your ranges, because it's not stellar, but it's not like it's a Dell or something and you have no options.
April 12, 2006 1:04:07 PM

Quote:



Not at the chip level. The support for PCIe can replace PCI and AGP simulataneously, and even work seemlessly with PCI really, without much work.


But it is not doing it!!!! (At least the manufacturers aren’t)
While I agree with you that AGP is (almost) dead, your post explains why a lot of people (my case included) are not upgrading to PCIE yet. Total lack of expansion cards. Even the new sound blaster is PCI. I use 4 PCI slots in my current setup good luck finding a newer board with that amount of PCI slots.

I wouldn’t mind retiring my old hardware and buying them for PCIE but have no choice in the matter. Things are not going to be any easier with the new generation of processors coming out soon (I really want to buy a Conroe or AM2, haven’t decided on which yet)

My only hope is the creative comes out with a new PCIE sound blaster (MB built in audio is not an option) and someone else comes out with a TV card for PCIE.
a b U Graphics card
April 12, 2006 5:26:26 PM

Quote:

But it is not doing it!!!! (At least the manufacturers aren’t)


I didn't say it was. Like I said the failed launch and coddling of the legacy people has had a great impact on PCIe ubiquity. However on the cip level you will find most work on just the northbridge with PCIe and PCI being served from the same chip. Only AGP needs the addition chip to function.

Quote:
While I agree with you that AGP is (almost) dead, your post explains why a lot of people (my case included) are not upgrading to PCIE yet. Total lack of expansion cards.


However there is very little that we need expansion cards for. Most things are integrated quite nicely into the new MoBos. the stuff that there is now is the stuff that truely benifits from it, like Gigabit ethernet and Raid solutions. There is PCIe TV tuner/Capture cards, but still (suprisingly at least to me) no commercial/general sound cards running on PCIe, like you mention. But...

Quote:
Even the new sound blaster is PCI.


You can buy pro solutions that are much better for serious audio (my Fav RME has nothing good yet);

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/2408CorePCIe/
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony.php

but you're right for gaming there is no PCIe solution, and likely alot of that has to do with Creative, they have the ability to step out on the limb and do it, but they don't, while everyone else is just trying to survive, and can't afford a failed product line when competing against Meg-Audio-sorus. I don't think they realize that some people get just one PCI slot (if that) with the smaller mini/micro-atx boards.

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I use 4 PCI slots in my current setup good luck finding a newer board with that amount of PCI slots.


Actually I have found many because initially I was concerned about that too. Most ATX based non-sli/xfire boards have 3-4, I've even seen 5. But you're right they are getting rarer, and I don't understand the delay in launch with all the critical mas of PCIe equipped MoBos out there, there should be enough of a market for them as there is for something like the boutique solutions like Turtle beach or even M-Audio.

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My only hope is the creative comes out with a new PCIE sound blaster (MB built in audio is not an option)


Well some of the integrated isn't bad, but that's not to say it's as good as the dedicates ASIO sertified mid-range than Creative makes. There is an Audigy 4 integrated solution which is OK and the Karajan audio solution is technically a PCIe audio 'card' with the annoying flipped connector so you can't use it on just any mobo. Both are good, but not great.

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and someone else comes out with a TV card for PCIE.


Actually those have been out for about a year (the MSI ones were the first I saw for sale in Canada), here's a recent review of the Powercrapper one;
http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=764&cid=2

Best tuners you can buy until the Theatre 600 actually ships (announce last month) IMO.
!