X2 4200 or X2 4400?

[Aerobernardo]

Well since ive tried an opteron and it didnt work (that OC is too much for me), i will try the X2 4200. Well i know that the 2 mb cache of the x2 4400 would make the difference but even with that and plus 200mhz, according to the THG interative CPU chart, the difference aint that loud... Is it worthy to go on a X2 4200, i mean, does it makes a HUGE difference to justify its price? (currently checking newegg)

 

[sandmannight]

I would go with a 4200 and just OC the 200. The extra cache wont make that big of a difference but it would help. So its up to your budget really

 

[Aerobernardo]

Well almost U$150,00 is quite a difference aint it? The point is, if i were on to overclock i would get me an opteron 165. But i just chicken out. No more OCs for me. But if i spend that U$150,00 on the CPU, wouldn't it be better spent on a better memory or a better Video card? I might jump from the X1900Xt to the X1900XTX... The question is: where should i put that cash?

 

[SidVicious]

Well since ive tried an opteron and it didnt work (that OC is too much for me), i will try the X2 4200. Well i know that the 2 mb cache of the x2 4400 would make the difference but even with that and plus 200mhz, according to the THG interative CPU chart, the difference aint that loud... Is it worthy to go on a X2 4200, i mean, does it makes a HUGE difference to justify its price? (currently checking newegg)

Would you mind being a little more specific, like explaining what did'nt work with the Opteron ?

Additional information such as your motherboard, memory, cooling system and budget would help.

 

[Aerobernardo]

Being specific:
I cant overclock it lol. THe only overclock ive done was in my Geforce4ti4200 using a nice driver. I am just too scared to go on OC and burn my PC. Im not from the US and im importing EVERYTHING. Should anything go wrong and im busted... No warranty, no customer help, nothing. So this time ima run for the regular products.
Btw, by overclocking my VGA card, i burned not 1 but 3 power supplies!!! lol About the card? Still running on my PC!
Im thinking of:
X2 4200
MB Msi Neo Platinum (nforce 4 ultra)
2x1Gb ocz low latency memories
Maxtor caviar 16mb buffer HD
Radeon X1900XT512mb

How does that sound to you? Should i go x2 4400 for the 2 mb cache? I dont wanna get through U$1500,00

Oh and thanks for your help!!!

 

[SidVicious]

I cant overclock it lol. THe only overclock ive done was in my Geforce4ti4200 using a nice driver. I am just too scared to go on OC and burn my PC.

Okay, you just chickened out, understandeable consider your track record with the Ti-4200.

I am curious to know how you managed to burn through three PSU's, have you considered the possibility that you were either doing something the Wrong Way or using innadequate equipement after the first one gave up the ghost ?

From my personnal experience, such catastrophic failures are either caused by a serie of freak events or by easily avoidable human errors. Although there can be remote risks involved, overclocking, when done properly, is relatively safe when you are wise enough to minimize those risks.

I'd also like to know which Opteron model you have/had, which motherboard you tried overclocking with, what kind of RAM was used and if you currently have that hardware still in your possession.

The reason for that barrage of question is simple, I don't mind lending you a hand since you mentionned that getting high-end hardware is difficult in your neck of the wood.

Perhaps you could manage to achieve your goals with that Opteron of yours, unless you already parted with it...

 

[Aerobernardo]

Nonono Sid
I still have an old Xp2k Palomino core and a Geforceti4200. By the time i bought it, thats was the king of the hill (the 9700 wasnt even there). Since im on college, by the time i had the cash and will to buy me a high end PC, I used my savigns for a laptop (Acer travelmate4402, turion with X700 mobile) since i need it cause im on the aeronautical engineering college in Brazil. Since its a work laptop, im now crying for a new pc and that system i told u is still under debate. I dont wanna go any further from the 1,5k mark. Its for gaming purpose. Of course it will run my engineering programs like solid works and even CatiaV5, but im worried about my fun now lol.
About the opteron overclock, a teacher in college have a dual opteron (not a dual core), and strongly discouraged me of doing OC because according to him its not only dangerous but its also something that cant be done by regular users. Well i surelly can build a home pc by my own but mess up with multipliers is still beyond my skills. I surelly want to learn how to OC but i cant just sit down and watch my hardly earned cash go away... Maybe in the near future, as a graduated engineer... who knows?
and ty again for the tips

 

[Aerobernardo]

And about those power supplies, the salesman told me they would handle. Well i have 2 hd, a sound blaster live sound card, a palomino Athlon 2k, a nice AGP card and so on... i told him not to put shit on my system... I dont think it happened because of the oc on the vga, but the first baked motherboard and power supply happened 1 minute after the overclock settings... After that 2 more went straight to hell and then he gave me a seventeam nice quality power supply, tired of replacing shit in the warranty

 

[Dresden]

Ok Aero, this is what you are gonna do, and you're gonna do it because I DID IT. Prior to last weekend, I had never in my life built a computer, never OC'd one, and only for the past 6-7 months have I been in the computer realm. I guess I caught on fast. This aside, here are a few pointers.

1) Don't be scared, or you'll never be able to push the envelope in your life, and you'll always be wondering what if.

2) You're an engineer. This is your realm. I don't care if your aeronautical or hydraulics, you're an engineer, you should be excited to OC something, and push your mind to understand a process of engineering.

3) I'm GONNA major in engineering, but I'm still lollygagging in Community College. So I suspect you are more than capable of doing this, cause you're at some crazy college doing aeronautical enginneering. Hells yea.

4) Study your butt off on mobo's, bios's, the way the whole system works(CPU multipliers, HTT multipiers, Memory dividers, HTT stability, blah blah blah). Just learn how it works, it's easy, trust me.

5) Do all of this just so you can call your pussy teacher a god damned noob for trying to hold you back. New generation will always pwn the old generation, so now is your chance to remind him of this.

6) Make sure you are aware of power usage of all your components. This will save anything blowing out, lol. OCing a CPU will not destroy it, unless you overvolt it, or push it way past sensible speeds. Since you are a little SCARED, I doubt you would be the one to push a CPU to far.

7) I hope this encourages you to OC an opteron. It is the best processor to learn on, cause of its incredible ease. Also, check out the single core opty's(144-146), they too have incredible capablities, and are far more cheaper than most processors.

IMHO, the 146 is the most bang for your buck when OC'd, with the 165-170 closely tailing it.

You better do this, don't settle for less.

 

[Dresden]

Also, remember, Google is your best friend. It will provide all the information you need. Don't depend on salesmen.

 

[Aerobernardo]

Hey Dresden
Man ur pumping me up. Heres what ill do: IF i manage to import everything from the USA it will come around U$1.5k, then ill try the opt and save U$400 in case i burn it. IF i can only buy stuff in BRazil ima go for the regular x24200 caus the same system will come around 2.3k, this way i wont have any cash left. ur right i know that opterons dont burn that easy. Can a regular fatality cooler hold the horses? Wich multiplier should i use? 10X?

 

[SidVicious]

Nonono Sid
I still have an old Xp2k Palomino core and a Geforceti4200. By the time i bought it, thats was the king of the hill (the 9700 wasnt even there).

Thanks for clearing that out, now that we got through this slight misunderstanding, let's dig into the meat of your post.

Since im on college, by the time i had the cash and will to buy me a high end PC, I used my savigns for a laptop (Acer travelmate4402, turion with X700 mobile) since i need it cause im on the aeronautical engineering college in Brazil. Since its a work laptop, im now crying for a new pc and that system i told u is still under debate. I dont wanna go any further from the 1,5k mark.

Is that 1500 figure in USD or BRL ?

About the opteron overclock, a teacher in college have a dual opteron (not a dual core), and strongly discouraged me of doing OC because according to him its not only dangerous but its also something that cant be done by regular users.

While it is true that overclocking is an alien concept to mainstream user, overclocking is neither dangerous nor to complicated, provided that you are willing to invest some time in learning about how a hardware can be safely pushed beyond its specififications (like how pilots would push a plane beyond its envelope in a life threatening situation without getting themselves and passengers/crew killed). Even though OC'ing is much less dramatic, this concept should'nt be hard for you to grasp considering that you are in a very technical field of studies.

Well i surelly can build a home pc by my own but mess up with multipliers is still beyond my skills. I surelly want to learn how to OC but i cant just sit down and watch my hardly earned cash go away...

The keyword here is Learning, which will obviously involve a lot of reading on your part. The basics can be grasped without touching a computer but deeper knowledge will require hands on experimentation.

Maybe in the near future, as a graduated engineer... who knows?

You seem sensible and inquisitive enough to get started, no need to wait when you can reach for your goals now, without fear of being held back by the necessary evils of the professional life that lies beyond graduation.

and ty again for the tips

Anytime !

 

[Aerobernardo]

Is that 1500 figure in USD or BRL ?
US dollars

While it is true that overclocking is an alien concept to mainstream user, overclocking is neither dangerous nor to complicated, provided that you are willing to invest some time in learning about how a hardware can be safely pushed beyond its specififications (like how pilots would push a plane beyond its envelope in a life threatening situation without getting themselves and passengers/crew killed). Even though OC'ing is much less dramatic, this concept should'nt be hard for you to grasp considering that you are in a very technical field of studies.

Dude that comparsion broke my heart lol!!! A pilot trying to push the envelope!? Dude u gotta have ur own TV show!

And my decision is up there: if i get those componentos on the US i might spend sometime learning and then try the OCed opteron. But if i can only manage to get those parts in Brazil, well then my cash will be short for any "accidents"

Thank you guys... man im on google already trying to get some OC info over my head. Any web sites suggestions?

 

[Dresden]

Oh shiz, look in the AMD forums, and just scrounge around for the opty threads. There is one thread that has like 20 OC tutorial sites! I used to be very pesstimistic about OCing too, but the more you read, the more you realize that you are really only doing to the core what AMD and Intel do to them.

I'll try to find that thread for you, but most tech sites that are in the know have some type of article on OCing. But you don't want just OCing guides, you wanna research how the whole damn thing works, that way when it comes to the OCing part, you'll understand why you are doing what you are doing.

P.S. - I'm so f'in happy that me and sid convinced you to try this out(depending on your monies situation). It is a very cool experience, and very addicting to anyone that has the slightest inclination towards engineering and mechanics. I'm already considering making another build with one of the single core opty's!

 

[MU_Engineer]

I also have a professor that uses dual-CPU AMD systems (Athlon MPs in his case) and he looks at overclocking as a very childish and irresponsible thing to do. He goes on about things like electromigraton (the cause of SNDS,) bit flipping, and other things that happen when you push your circuitry outside of its design parameters. I bet you he's probably right.

EDIT: Oh, and one thing: it is true that the manufacturers try to make only one CPU in a line (e.g. all Athlon X2s are meant to be 4800+'s.) They do lock multipliers down on chips that cannot handle the higher frequencies to their reliability and thermal specs. There are exceptions where chips will be intentionally clocked down because the low-end ones are demanded, but that is not the rule. (If that was the rule, then OCing to the highest frequency would be merely reversing the mfr's locks, which is what the OC sites say.) The same might be true with the cache as well, but I heard that AMD actually makes separate 1MB Toledo and 512KB Manchester cores on different wafers as the yields are so good that it'd be a waste to just shut off half of the cache if it works.

 

[Aerobernardo]

Hd: U$95,00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144701

Memory: U$205,00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227084

MB: U$113,00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130484

CPU: U$325,00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103588

GPU: U$439,00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102003
or U$489,00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102671

Any power supply sugestions? This system should come around U$1380,00 (with cooler and power supply). The only thing ima buy In Brazil is the case, acoording to the heat ima have, and the keyboard/mouse combo cause thats something you gotta try to choose the one that fits in your taste. With everything aboard thats about U$1500,00 plus the import profit that should go to U$1800,00.
Still need power supply suggestions for that. Is 550W enought?

 

[Dresden]

This is why cooling is a very important matter. Thermal leakage could and does happen if cooling isn't properly managed. Has your professor tried it? Of course these things could happen, but do they always happen? In what type of setting do they happen in? Any statistics concerning electromigration and bit flipping, I mean, what is the percentage of these occurances. Is this only the case in overvolting? I think your professor preaches too much theoretical, and not enough empirical. You try the OC process, and tell me you don't see results.

And if you OC a CPU hardcore, what, you might lose a few years from the CPU's life(life expectancy of like 10-12 years, so lets be real generous with the reduction figure and say the CPU might live 6-7 years)time. Jesus, I don't know many people that don't upgrade a computer every three to four years. Plus, most OCers are addicts and tech happy junkies who get their hands on new tech every year. So it also depends on the user. I think it is childish and irresponsible to behave like a sheep and use a computer like a corporation wants you too. There are many things that these manufacturers don't want the average person to know.

Honestly, check google and try, I mean really try to find a f'in review on the denmark core(opteron 165-180). You won't, unless if it's specifically regarding it's server side performance. AMD, Intel, ATI, Nvidia, blah blah blah have all these tech sites on their knees, cause these companies throw them back product. The opteron f's up the FX-60 market share, and AMD is very aware of this. This is why they do not allow anyone to flaunt what it is capable of. You might spot a comment here and there, but besides this, you get forum talk. Thank god for the little amount of free speech we still have.

Yea, OCing can be risky, and you might have to reinstall Windows if you're not careful. But it's fun, and it's not textbook BS you're dealing with. If it was really as bad and "irresponsible" as your professor makes claim to, there would hardly be so many tech savvy people and engineers that make use of OCing. Sorry to pull the popularity card, but it actually holds up in this case. There is power in numbers.

 

[MU_Engineer]

My case has decent ventilation, and I would suppose my professor's does too. His is a large full-tower ATX unit sitting right next to his desk and it is very quiet. The electromigration happened whenever one overvolted a Northwood P4 over 1.7 V Vcore. That is something like 0.2V, which is a little bit of an overvolt, but not out of the range of what some might try on a recalcitrant CPU.

The professor honestly does run computers forever. He only has one out of dozen that is newer than a year and a *lot* of K7 Athlons and server Northwood A and B P4s. He still uses some old Pentium 100 and 133 machines in the electronics labs as they will run DOS.

And as far as finding OC reviews on Opterons- look at Newegg's reviews. I honestly saw about four out of 80 that didn't mention OCing. Really- go look at the 165's reviews.

Why I shy away from OCing is for s few reasons, and they all stem from the fact that I run Folding @ Home on my machine to take up spare CPU cycles (I mean, why not?) That means it is on and at full speed 24/7 and putting out full heat all day too. (At stock, I run 42 C with the fans at a quiet 70% of full speed. I don't want this machine to resemble one of my friend's P4 3.0 rig that idled near 40 C and sounded like a Harrier jet on takeoff.) FAH is also somewhat sensitive to overclocks that go even near pushing the envelope as you'll get the occasional math error, flipped bit in memory if you overvolt that, and the chip might get too hot from the huge sustained load and throttle or shut off. It sucks to fold a big WU and take a few days to do so and then have it dump the WU as it fails the checksum. I don't run Windows, so reinstallation honestly takes 20 minutes from sticking the DVD in the drive to when everything is installed, drivers included.

 

[Dresden]

Heat and voltage leaking are serious concerns, so I agree with you on that subject. But let address the reviews first. By reviews, I meant tech sites, like tomshardware, anandtech, bittech, techpowerup, etc etc. You won't find one on sites like these, and if you do, please post the link. I've tried so hard to find an actual documented review of an overclock of an opteron, but to no avail.

K, so the problem is that Intel is in use for much of this argument. Intels are already know to leak a lot of heat and voltage. They run too hot. AMD's new architechtures(K8 and above) are where it's at, and is why many OC these without regard. They aren't power hungry chips, so giving them more power doesn't result in so much leakage.

My opty 170 @2.6Ghz runs around 36-37 C idle, and like 48-51 C full load. Temps to be concerned about are like 65-above C. Thats when things get bad, on AMD processors that is. Also, a successful overclock should pass Prime95(running for like 6-24Hrs, no errors. Errors mean instability). Also a good program to run is SuperPI. Lots of math in that one. And then stress tests with 3DMark programs, and graphic intensive games(HL2, FEAR, Far Cry, Oblivion, BF2, COD2).

But, then again, what's the use of OCing if you don't need the extra power?