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just bought the tft7020

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February 9, 2002 12:44:50 AM

hehe, this is great, but first I have to be approved to be a student, hope they accept CC, you know community colleges student as a student, otehrwise they will cancel my order, hehe have to stay up to date. this will be great, and if i dont like it, i can return it without any questions asked, and the warrenty, great:)  Hope the monitor is as good as you people say it is. now i just have to get a radeon 8500 so i can use the dvi output, hehe. right now im on a geforce from leadtec, it was the best when i bought it 2 years ago, but now its time for a upgrade.

More about : bought tft7020

February 9, 2002 12:58:03 AM

Have fun w/ the LCD:) 

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 9, 2002 4:39:59 AM

thanx man, im just waiting to get the confermation letter, hope they work on weekends:) 

this is the one i took:
TFT7020 Analog+Digital w/Speakers - 2-Tone US
Active Matrix TFT (thin film transistor) Flat Panel Monitor VGA, DVI-D Signal Input .264 mm pixel pitch

for a $646 and free shipping:) 

hope the speakers work good
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Anonymous
February 10, 2002 7:35:39 AM

I think we're all pretty familiar with the specs of the TFT7020. :wink:

Hopefully soon, I will be getting as familiar with it as your going to be...



R_E
February 10, 2002 6:24:08 PM

i just wanted to point out the speakers, you know there are 2 versions, one with speakers and one is without. but i have not recieved the confermation that the student deal went through, hopefully it did.
February 10, 2002 6:33:55 PM

They don't really seem to be open on weekends (excpet for tech support and the warehouses), so ur confirmation will probably be sent to u monday or tuesday. It never occured to me to try the speakers....odd. Don't u have a sound system?

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 10, 2002 8:06:00 PM

Well, it's better to have speakers on a Monitor anyway as usually it compliments whatever Sound system you have. It's like in a movie theater. Most screens have two speakers on either side, which really isn't needed since they have a fancy Dolby Digital sound setup, but it still adds to the effect.

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 10, 2002 8:07:04 PM

That's an idea...using speakers w/ monitor speakers!

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 10, 2002 8:23:00 PM

Yeah, if I can find a good LCD with speakers I will surely go with it. Hell, I may just go with Compaq as I could get the student discount too. I am going to be getting the Cambridge SoundWorks MegaWorks 510D speakers. Add these with a Hercules Gaming Theater XP sound card and you got a kick ass sound system. Can't wait for the summer, hehe.

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 10, 2002 9:34:04 PM

Cool. What i can't understand is that I got the SB Live Platinum Digital sound card, so the live drive is all digital plugs. However, the actual plugs for speakers are analog! WTF!! Annoys me soo much cause my ATP5 can use digital signal.

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 10, 2002 11:09:05 PM

I think its because you need a amp that supports Dolby 6 point sound. YOu run the card to the amp and then the speakers from the amp.

You consider how much the sound card is , and then comsider the hardware you need to use it. Its quiet an investment. IF you can afford the 600+ amp that supports digital in/out put, your set for a long time. You cant get much better.

Unless I could get the amp I dont think I would buy the card. If I had the card already I would be seriously considering buying the Amp.
February 11, 2002 12:02:44 AM

ok, thanx for the info that they are not open on weekends, they did not mention that on their site. ahha, i get enoyed, my system needs a tons of upgrades, still on a athlon 800, i have upgrades the storage a couple of times, now i got over 250 on my main computer... but i think i will get a new system to the summer, but when i get the 7020 i need a new card with dvi output:)  I was thinking of the r8500 but i just might go with the r7500 instead for the r8500 because my m/b only supports 2x agp, so when summer arrives i get a new system for my new screen:) 
February 11, 2002 12:34:40 AM

I'd get a GF3...they is so cheap now...and a reg Gf3 is more expensive than a Ti500!! WTF!!

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 11, 2002 3:23:23 AM

the main reason i want to go with a ati, is because the tvout, I have a s-video on that the geforce i have right now and the tv-out sucks, so i want a better tv-out and people told me that ati is much better then nvidea. but i have not made up my mine yet
February 11, 2002 4:06:38 AM

Please do not get the Nvidia card, at least not the gf2/gf3/ti version! it is well known that Nvidia have lower image quailty compare to ati/matrox!(there is a article I beleive in anandtech showing why and perhaps how to improve the image quality of Nvidia chipset)
you can get a Ati 8500 oem for same/lower price then Nvidia, with basically same speed as ti500 and better visual quality, why o to Nvidia at all!
February 11, 2002 12:38:59 PM

I use teh dvi iand tv-out on my Quadro DCC (GF3 basically), and it's awesome. This is just bs about image quality. Seriously, there is no difference.

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 11, 2002 2:50:01 PM

If you don't think there is huge difference in visual quality between different video chipset! you are sadly mistaken, even Nvidia own vice president on research was in a interview in asian news awhile back address the same issue saying they will address the issue on their next(gf4) chipset!

by the way, web site such as tomshardware/anandtech that you like to quote so much about the issue of MVA/TNF have constantly address the issue of Nvidia second rated visual output, they even go as far as writing a article on how to improve GF3 by removing some resister or something!

you either believe or don't believe those web site reporter, or are you just one of those selective reader who read whatever match their own believe?
February 11, 2002 4:10:24 PM

I know there is no difference in image quality between Quadro and GF, which is why I used that as an example. I myself use a my LCD on a DVI port, and the image looks great- certainly no problems with it. Odd how Compaq got the TFT7020 to work w/ a GF3 and look great, yet other companies have issues with GF3. Realize that this is a mainstream card, and most people WILL NOT buy a new vid card just to get an LCD to work- they'll just get a different LCD (I'm talking about the peops who don't know much about comps, not THG members). From my personal experience, I have not noticed any declines in image quality on my Quadro DCC. That's just my opinion, obviously u choose not to accept it, which is fine.
BTW, I do believe what I see (if it's credible), but at a certain point, personal experience may override that.

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 12, 2002 12:42:16 PM

Why would you want to get a GF3 if your Quadro is already like it? And yes, IQ is better with ATI, esp. 2D. But Matrox has the best 2D IQ by far. But for 3D, ATI has the crown right now. However the differences in IQ between the two are very minute, and so you have to look hard to find them. It's only obvious on some games (ie those that support truform, etc). Only problem is, I can spot the differences easily since I have read about them, so it's probably ATI for me. We'll see this summer. All I have to say is ATI's driver support has really improved, and if I do get a card from them, worrying about the drivers and support will be a thing of the past.

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 12, 2002 2:29:47 PM

No, I'm not getting a gf3, just reccomending it:) 

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 13, 2002 12:08:26 AM

grrr, Compaq have not send an confermation letter yet, and they said it woudl only take like 24 hours, i am getting nervous

someone pass over the alcohol, i cant stand this no more
February 13, 2002 12:27:15 AM

call em

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 13, 2002 3:07:55 AM

ok, i think I will do that tomorrow
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 3:18:50 AM

I never received anything until the monitor showed up the next week. I did call them to make sure everything went through, but it was unnecessary.
February 13, 2002 6:15:59 AM

ok, thanx for that info, i was thinking of that too, but i did nit really give them any good info about me biung a student, i was like i go to this school and my name is... and hope this works
February 13, 2002 1:49:02 PM

When I ordered this monitor it had arrived at my house and I wasn't even charged yet!
If I was a bad person I could have closed my bank account and then they wouldn't have been able to charge me, but I'm not sure what the reprocussions of said action would have provoked at such juncture. *grin* big words :smile:
I also had the monitor on back order for about 3 weeks before finally getting it, hopefully it'll be in stock for you and you will get it faster than I got mine. I still love it though, I really want a 2nd LCD monitor and nothing I've been able to find compares to the TFT7020.

Trusting every aspect of our lives to a giant computer was the greatest thing we ever did -Homer
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 2:52:06 PM

I called their business number and checked stock before I ordered on-line through university, and they said they would be getting them in the next day, and shipping the day after that.

I'll be damned if it didn't ship 2 days after I ordered it just like they said it would. Compaq really has the sales stuff down pat. :) 
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 4:56:25 PM

I am considering purchasing the TFT7020 and I have a question about it. The specs for its viewing angle are 150° (horizontal) and 140° (vertical). I had returned a Rad-5 because of poor viewing angles (140° and 115°). I replaced it with an MVA unit that has 160°/160° viewing angles and I love it for that. Unfortunately, it suffers from serious ghosting in fast action games, so back it goes. Will I be happy with the TFT7020's viewing angles even though they are not 160°/160°? I don't like to sit locked in position in my chair just to make my LCD look evenly bright so viewing angle is very important to me.

Another thing I am wondering about is when viewing angle specs are given they usually have a qualifier of (10:1 CR). I assume that this means at the stated viewing angle, the difference in brightness from one edge of the screen to the other will be no more than a 10:1 contrast ratio. This is purely a guess, correct me if I am wrong.

Also, from what I have read here, the TFT7020 has almost no ghosting. Has anyone had problems with ghosting on the TFT7020 in any way, shape, or form?



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eviscerate on 02/13/02 01:59 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 13, 2002 5:28:55 PM

Let me tell you something!
All LCD suffer from ghosting if you are serious about those fighting game and start running it at 100 fps! in fact, you might notice that some hardcore gamer will actually lower their resolution and detail so that they can have super fast framerate for better movement! is that the kind of player you are? is that what you want you lcd for! if it is, you really should get a high quality crt instead!

by the way, if anyone in here say his/her lcd don't ghost, tel them to just go ahead a run a Q3 demo, with a decent video card, running at 1025x768 or 1280x1024, you are blind if you don't see a lot of "ghosting" on a lcd!

for myself, I have decdie on Viewsonic Vg191 instead of Compaq or Samsung! why you ask? because I don't enjoy working on a 17in lcd at 1280x1024 all day! and Viewsonic monitor image quality is as good as any other that I have come across!

what you should ask for is if the lcd is comfortable to look at all day long, is the font razor sharp, is the resolution/size the right one for you, the quality of construction"enclosure", the warrenty and the lamp rated life!
things that is much more important then if the lcd ghost on fast action game! because let me tell you!! "THEY ALL DO"
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 6:53:15 PM

imo, you are right, but your thread on us being stupid for considering it is uncalled for. Go back to your troll hole. I just want to see rob get a Samsung 181T and do a review of it and see if the results are similar to the VG191. If so, then I would still consider the VG191, but also begin considering CRT's more seriously. I would get a CRT in a heartbeat if I had more desk space.

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 13, 2002 8:32:09 PM

Look who's talking about being blind!! U can't stand 1280x1024 on a 17". Now it's just right for me, not too small or anything like that for sure. As for ghosting, nope.

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 13, 2002 9:22:29 PM

Actually I think all lcd manfacture can close up shop! according to some, Compaq just make the "best" 7020 there is with no room for improvement, no ghost even at 600fps, perfect in everyway! good price too!

you are right flame, I will invest in Compaq stock as soon as possible!

I use the word "stupid" because people here seem so focus on "gaming" when all lcd manfacture that you ask always stated that "lcd is not or good for gaming"! except Compaq 7020 of course, that one is perfect!!

why beat a dead issue! if gaming is your bag, either get Compaq perfect lcd or wait a few more year!!

by the way flame, are you the one that can't tell the visual difference between Nvidia/Ati/Matrox video card?
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 9:42:18 PM

imo, I can see your point, but calling someone stupid sure the hell doesn't solve anything. And your statement isn't a fact, it's an opinion. Everyone has one. There is no need to bash anyone else's.

Flame, how did you get HL to run at 600+ fps? I didn't think that was even possible with a GF4???

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 13, 2002 9:47:15 PM

Oh, it's very possible. In OpenGL, I get that...guess my vid card is just fast. IMO (to the user), thre certainly are other LCD's out there that are fit for gaming. Just that many people want 17" LCD now, and TFT7020 is one of the best in that size. For 18", 181T certainly, and for 15", the Eizo L365 is liked, and TFT5030 to some extent (too bad there are no reviews of it yet). Many choose to use MVA, but sadly this technology tends to ghost in LCD's, although it displays a great picture when still.

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 13, 2002 10:39:12 PM

Flame

You obviously do not under LCD technology enough to comment on MVA. The conventional mono-domain VA technology uniformly tilts the LC molecules to display an intermediate gray scale. Like this /////

Because of the uniform alignment of LC molecules, the brightness changes depending on the viewing angle.

MVA solves this problem by causing the LC molecules to angle in more than one direction within a single cell. Like this \\\\\ //////
This is done by dividing the cell into four regions - called domains.

By combining areas of LCD molecules oriented in one direction with areas of LCD molecules oriented in the opposite direction, and by making the areas very small, the brightness of the cells can be made to appear uniform over a wide range of viewing angles. This is the major difference between mono domain and multiple domain panels. This is also why MVA technology is better suited to colors and gray scales than mono-domain panels like yours.

By definition the MVA technique has no affect whatsoever on how much ghosting is seen. Any number of factors including the following, temperature, video card, video card driver, video electronics inside the monitor, refresh rate, FPS rate, pixel response rate, video cables, contrast / brightness settings, gamma settings, etc. etc. etc. all can cause ghosting. To point to any one of these and say they are always the cause of ghosting is simply not valid. In the case of MVA we know it cannot be pixel response time because MVA panels are very fast at 25MS compared to many other panels.

You have a system where you do not see any ghosting. There is no guarantee that someone with an identical system would not see ghosting.

Jim Witkowski
Chief Hardware Engineer
Cornerstone / Monitorsdirect.com

Jim at http://www.monitorsdirect.com
February 13, 2002 10:55:44 PM

I know about MVA technology (have seen multiple papers on it...pun intended). Let me ask you this, why is it that even Fujitsu themselves, as well as numerous other companies (Viewsonic, a few others who use MVA) claim that BECAUSE of MVA there is the 25ms response time? Also, why is it that on a few LCD's now using MVA ghosting is more visible?

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 13, 2002 11:05:56 PM

Like I have said before, don’t believe everything you read. The marketing guys simply do not understand the technology, nor do they need to. Pixel response has very little to do with the way the molecules are aligned or how many domains are used. Fujitsu simply found a way to turn them on and off faster than others like the panel you have.

You cannot blame a single item as the cause of ghosting, in fact in most cases it is a combination of many of the items I listed above that determine if you will see ghosting or not.


Jim at http://www.monitorsdirect.com
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 11:10:21 PM

I have some questions for Jim.

---Who makes MVA panels?---

Is mva a technology for which fujitsu holds the patent license to? Are companies that wish to use mva required to pay a fee to use this technology or is fujitsu the sole manufacturer of mva panels. In other words, if one buys a viewsonic, cornerstone, and planar (all mva based) LCD, will each panel be manufactured by fujitsu or by those respective companies? Maybe you can't comment on other companies methods but can you tell us whether cornerstone purchases mva panels from fujitsu or do they manufacture them in house?

---How is response time measured?---

Next, even if response time is reported with different methods (i.e. typical vs minimal vs maximum) and (combined vs rise vs fall) is there at least a standard for how response times are measured? Does everyone use the same method and equipment for performing these measurements? What exactly is measured? Is it the time from black to white and white to black? This method would be very inefective for determining gaming performance which is mostly more subtle color changes. Incidentaly, it is these subtle color changes that my mva based LCD has so much trouble with. For instance, black to white and white to black transitions really don't look bad compared to going from dark red to grey. Assuming that black/white and white/black transition times are used to calculate a response time specification, this could help explain why measured/reported response times seem to have little bearing on actual gaming performance. I certainly don't claim to know if this is in fact how response times are measured but it is at the very least a logical hypothesis.

---What parts of the LCD are responsible for good/bad response times?---

For my next question, please assume that all other variables that may or may not influence response time besides the ones I am asking about are exactly the same. Is the response time determined only by the panel used or can the same panel have different response times based on what electronic components are used in the finished unit? For example, let us suppose that fujitsu is the sole manufacturer of mva panels, does every fujitsu mva panel have the exact same rating for response time or will that vary from unit to unit depending on what other electronics are used? I just re-read Jim's post regarding mva and will quote him below:

"Any number of factors including the following, temperature, video card, video card driver, video electronics inside the monitor, refresh rate, FPS rate, pixel response rate, video cables, contrast / brightness settings, gamma settings, etc. etc. etc. all can cause ghosting."

Correct me if I'm wrong here but "pixel response rate" seems to be the orange in that list of apples. It seems to me that all the other items listed would be causes of a low/high pixel response time which would be exhibited as ghosting. Am I looking at this wrong? Is pixel response time perhaps measured on the panel before the LCD is assembled as a unit (I'm not sure how that would work)? If not, I don't think it would be practical to seperate "electronics inside the monitor" and "pixel response rate" as seperate causes of ghosting as stated. Wouldn't pixel response rate (and associated ghosting or lack there of) be more of a function of the panel and electronics in use?

If response time is indeed based on a combination of the panel and other electronics used (disregarding all possible external causes of ghosting), this is encouraging because it indicates that it would be possible to produce an LCD based on mva that has minimal ghosting as compared to the rad-5. I site the rad-5 as an example because I have seen and compared it to the pv150.

---Pixel response rating does not always correspond to the level of ghosting!---

I was glancing through Tom's Hardware's LCD comparison guide again and noticed something I had missed before. Below, I have pasted the text from the article:

"This makes us wonder what measurement methods the manufacturers used and whether the specifications are accurate. For example, some manufacturers will provide an average response time, while others provide a maximum value and yet others only list the minimum time. However, manufacturers who specify how they determine response times are few and far between. This makes it particularly difficult to compare monitors, since the measurements were obtained by using different approaches. Ideally, all manufacturers would give the maximum response time when the monitor is being pushed to its limits. After all, even if two monitors are supposed to have an average response time of 30 ms, the afterglow will most probably differ radically. If we take a look at the come-up time, say 15 ms, will that be the average value from (10 + 20)/2=15, or from (5 + 25)/2=15? In the second instance, the monitor might require up to 25 ms to change a color and evidence a longer afterglow, despite having the same specifications."

AND:

"When the monitor was launched in the first half of 2001, its specs placed it among the upper echelons of displays. At that time, its most attractive features were a contrast ratio of 350:1 and a response time of 40 ms.

By the end of this year, however, new monitors are likely to surpass the Belinea, at least on paper. Unfortunately, though, most of these newcomers will consist of a press release only, nothing more. The 10 15 35 remains one of the best TN + film monitors available today. Its main strength continues to be its response time, which is astonishing when you consider that some displays claim to have a response time of 25 ms (come-up and come-down). In fact, the Belinea has the shortest and least noticeable afterglow of all."

Here are links to the specific pages on which the above quotes appear:

http://www4.tomshardware.com/display/02q1/020114/lcd-16...
http://www4.tomshardware.com/display/02q1/020114/lcd-12...

This information seems to indicate that reported response times are not the end all specification for determining the amount of afterglow/ghosting. It certainly corresponds with my own experience with the pv150 and rad-5. Both are rated at a total typical response time of 25ms. In actuality the pv150 (an mva panel) was MUCH worse than the rad-5 (not mva). Please note that I tested these two monitors immediately one after the other on the exact same pc with the exact same scene of the exact same game. So, please do not tell me that any variables other than the LCD unit itself and the components/panel used in them are responsible for the severe difference in ghosting/blurring/afterglow.

I have already indicated in a previous post that the pv150 looks better in almost every aspect than the rad-5 EXCEPT ghosting, so I am certainly not biased against mva. I would love to see an mva panel with the image quality of the pv150 and the minimal ghosting of the rad-5.

Quote by Jim Witkowski in reference to ghosting:

"In the case of MVA we know it cannot be pixel response time because MVA panels are very fast at 25MS compared to many other panels."

I challenge the validity of this statement due to my belief that 25ms on one panel can look very different than 25ms on another panel.

---Notes---

*Edit* This post seems to have become a work in progress for me so it may have changed quite a bit from the first time you read it. Sorry for any confusion this may cause, I am trying to consolidate my questions/comments/opinions about this topic into one coherent whole instead of scattered pieces here and there. I have now even added section headings, lol. I hope to be done with this post some time tonight. Thanks for your patience.

P.S. Is there a way to change the size of the post editing box? I can only display 5 lines at a time. I could use an external text editor, but that might be more hassle than it is worth.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eviscerate on 02/13/02 11:17 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 11:19:49 PM

Hmm....so it seems MVA actually causes HIGHER response times, not faster? This is very interesting. I wish I had MVA and non-MVA LCD's in front of me to test so I could be more sure.

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 13, 2002 11:21:45 PM

I do believe that MVA belongs to Fujitsu, cause I saw quite a bunch of stuff and how it was their technology. A few things determine response time, one of which is the actual procesing chip or whatever u want to call it on the LCD.

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 11:30:07 PM

Did you get an email from Samsung yet Flame about the 181T? If it doesn't use MVA, I'd like to see some tests to compare the VG191 with it and see what comes out, because their specs are very similar (that or compare it with another MVA panal that is 18").

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 13, 2002 11:33:09 PM

no email yet....I hope this isn't one of those things where it takes a month before they respond- have u gotten email yet?

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 13, 2002 11:41:04 PM

Nope. I wonder if they even got it. What will really get me mad is if I get one of those auto responses that won't tell you anything.....

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 13, 2002 11:55:27 PM

lol

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 14, 2002 12:15:52 AM

Hey shark, do you have anything to say on this? Just wondering cause I highly regard your posts. I just want to know for sure we are not looking at this the wrong way or something.

Jack Burton is a great man...
February 14, 2002 12:30:01 AM

It is definetly LCD for me....just spent a few hours making a presentation on quantum computing (matrix transformations, superpositions, all the good juicy stuff;)), and my eyes don't even feel it yet. Go LCD's!:) 

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
February 14, 2002 12:35:46 AM

You the man!
Computer expert
Graphic designer as a part time job
and a hardcore gamer too!

I give!
February 14, 2002 12:47:09 AM

lol...hardcore gamer is the most fun:) 

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
Anonymous
February 14, 2002 1:41:03 AM

Why can't I be the man? I mean, I DO have harmony balls...
February 14, 2002 1:48:08 AM

Yeah, but can they stand negative temperatures like mine do everyday in track shortsin the dead of winter?:) 

Only if you let me see the Umpa Lumpa- Homer Simpson.
!