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Canon Pixma IP4000 cartridge query

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  • Pixma
  • Peripherals
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Anonymous
February 5, 2005 6:06:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume if
one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?

MB

More about : canon pixma ip4000 cartridge query

February 5, 2005 1:09:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>
> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
> printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
> computer?
>
> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
> BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if
> one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>
> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
> compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>
> MB

The first black is Canon's idea of Pigmented black for text printing the 2nd
for Photo's. Don't mix them up. Canon is notorious for Oops I'm half empty -
No I ain't I's really empty, as it functions with an optical prism -
sometimes.
Tony
--
Got the picture...Print it. JetTec perfect.
http://www.aah-haa.com 30% more ink
http://www.inkylinkusa.com


>
>
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 2:27:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I use jettec cartridges in my IP4000 and they seem to be fine. They are
however opaque compared to the transparent Canon ones and it makes me wonder
if they will notify me when the cartridge is about to run out as the Canon
ones do.

Regards

Ray Bradshaw

"Tony" <auct1@pantsaah-haa.com> wrote in message
news:yMKdnU22_bqYBpnfRVn-qA@pipex.net...
>
>
> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>
>> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>> printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>> computer?
>>
>> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>> BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
> if
>> one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>
>> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>> cheaper
>> compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>
>> MB
>
> The first black is Canon's idea of Pigmented black for text printing the
> 2nd
> for Photo's. Don't mix them up. Canon is notorious for Oops I'm half
> empty -
> No I ain't I's really empty, as it functions with an optical prism -
> sometimes.
> Tony
> --
> Got the picture...Print it. JetTec perfect.
> http://www.aah-haa.com 30% more ink
> http://www.inkylinkusa.com
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
Related resources
February 5, 2005 2:41:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Thebrads" <ray@thebrads.co.uk> wrote in message
news:36jp65F4t0566U1@individual.net...
> I use jettec cartridges in my IP4000 and they seem to be fine. They are
> however opaque compared to the transparent Canon ones and it makes me
wonder
> if they will notify me when the cartridge is about to run out as the Canon
> ones do.
>
> Regards

The latest models from the factory now have a transparent panel - a little
todo about patents which caused this.
Just make sure your supplier has the latest models not old stock.
Tony

--
Got the picture...Print it. JetTec perfect.
http://www.aah-haa.com 30% more ink
http://www.inkylinkusa.com
Anonymous
February 5, 2005 7:36:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

The larger black cart contains pigmented ink and is used for business
text and graphics. The smaller black contains dye ink and is used for
photo.

While the Canon does not tell you how much ink is left like a gas guage
in a car, it does alert you when you have paper out or a cart is out and
it tells you which one.

You have chosen the best inkjet and I am sure you will get good
results. The best results are with Canon Photo Paper Pro. I am also
going to try Kirkland brand at Costco. They say it is Ilford. I have
not tried it yet. Good luck.

MB_ wrote:

>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>
>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>computer?
>
>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume if
>one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>
>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
>compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>
>MB
>
>
>
>
February 6, 2005 6:25:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in
news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga:

> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>
> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
> the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
> the computer?

Yes, a pop-up window will let you know. Also, lift the lid, you can see
the ink level go down in the reservoir after quite a few prints. you can
continue to print for a little while when you get the low ink warning.
But DO NOT PRINT any longer when it says OUT OF INK. You can destroy the
print head.

I hope your camera is at least a 3.1 mega pixel. A 2.1 will be quite
grainy, even at a relatively small 4x6. A 3.1 is far better. Of course,
anything larger will give still better results.

Lots of good papers around. Costco's Kirkland brand is excellect, dries
immediately. My store only has 8.5 x 11, but I cut them to size. I even
use relatively good paper from the Dollar store. Yup, 20 high gloss 4x6
for $1.00! They take a while to dry though, and don't handle finger
prints well. The manufacturer recommends 24 hours for drying. But this
paper is great for testing or even permanent prints behind glass /
plastic. Once dry they're as presentable as Canon's paper. Epson's
Glossy Paper is super excellent for greeting cards/booklet covers, etc.

>
> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
> cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the
> two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
> cartridge. Correct?

One is used strictly for text (BCI-3e), the other for photos (BCI-6).
They are not interchangeable. You can't actually, one is much larger!

>
> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
> cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>
> MB

If you can easily afford it, sure, use Canon's own inks.

If you can't afford it, like me, refill with ink specifically made for
this printer model, or buy high quality cartridges preferably filled
with ink from Formulabs. NEVER use "Universal" or anything marked
"Works in all printers". I use Chinese cartridges filled with US made
Formulabs ink for my Canon iP5000. Beautiful prints at 9600 resolution.
Dots so small you ain't gonna find them. There is a huge difference
between it and my lesser i860 in sharpness.

I've never had a problem using non-Canon inks. I currently run my i860
on cartridges I refill (about $5 to refill all 5 cartridges!) and the
iP500 with those Chinese cartridges (imported from Australia). I bought
7 sets. Even with airmail and customs, they're 1/3 to 1/4 the price of
Canon cartridges. The savings in ink pay for several printers within a
year - depending on printing volume, of course. That's why I easily run
two printers. I just printed a 300 page manual. My ink costs are
neglible. Ordinary printing paper costs me more than the ink! I can
live with that ;-)
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 8:44:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Nelson wrote:
> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in
> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga:
>
>> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>
>> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>> the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
>> the computer?
>
> Yes, a pop-up window will let you know. Also, lift the lid, you can
> see the ink level go down in the reservoir after quite a few prints.
> you can continue to print for a little while when you get the low ink
> warning. But DO NOT PRINT any longer when it says OUT OF INK. You can
> destroy the print head.


It's always quite safe to finish current job, but only this.


>
> I hope your camera is at least a 3.1 mega pixel. A 2.1 will be quite
> grainy, even at a relatively small 4x6. A 3.1 is far better. Of
> course, anything larger will give still better results.
>
> Lots of good papers around. Costco's Kirkland brand is excellect,
> dries immediately. My store only has 8.5 x 11, but I cut them to
> size. I even use relatively good paper from the Dollar store. Yup, 20
> high gloss 4x6 for $1.00! They take a while to dry though, and don't
> handle finger prints well. The manufacturer recommends 24 hours for
> drying. But this paper is great for testing or even permanent prints
> behind glass / plastic. Once dry


I've read somewhere that this "mistery" of instant drying is basically in
some sort of ceramic layer at the top of the paper, so ink flows under this
layer, making you "feel" like it's dry. You can also touch such photo
immediately without any harm. But still, you must leave it several hours in
dark place in open before you close it under glass or similar.


>
>>
>> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
>> cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
>> the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
>> cartridge. Correct?
>
> One is used strictly for text (BCI-3e), the other for photos (BCI-6).
> They are not interchangeable. You can't actually, one is much larger!
>
>>
>> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>> cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>
>> MB
>
> If you can easily afford it, sure, use Canon's own inks.
>
> If you can't afford it, like me, refill with ink specifically made for
> this printer model, or buy high quality cartridges preferably filled
> with ink from Formulabs. NEVER use "Universal" or anything marked
> "Works in all printers". I use Chinese cartridges filled with US made
> Formulabs ink for my Canon iP5000. Beautiful prints at 9600
> resolution. Dots so small you ain't gonna find them. There is a huge
> difference between it and my lesser i860 in sharpness.
>
> I've never had a problem using non-Canon inks. I currently run my i860
> on cartridges I refill (about $5 to refill all 5 cartridges!) and the
> iP500 with those Chinese cartridges (imported from Australia). I
> bought 7 sets. Even with airmail and customs, they're 1/3 to 1/4 the
> price of Canon cartridges. The savings in ink pay for several
> printers within a year - depending on printing volume, of course.
> That's why I easily run two printers. I just printed a 300 page
> manual. My ink costs are neglible. Ordinary printing paper costs me
> more than the ink! I can live with that ;-)
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 8:44:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

SleeperMan wrote:
> Nelson wrote:
>
>>"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in
>>news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga:
>>
>>
>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>
>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>>the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
>>>the computer?
>>
>>Yes, a pop-up window will let you know. Also, lift the lid, you can
>>see the ink level go down in the reservoir after quite a few prints.
>>you can continue to print for a little while when you get the low ink
>>warning. But DO NOT PRINT any longer when it says OUT OF INK. You can
>>destroy the print head.
>
>
>
> It's always quite safe to finish current job, but only this.
>
>
>
>>I hope your camera is at least a 3.1 mega pixel. A 2.1 will be quite
>>grainy, even at a relatively small 4x6. A 3.1 is far better. Of
>>course, anything larger will give still better results.
>>
>>Lots of good papers around. Costco's Kirkland brand is excellect,
>>dries immediately. My store only has 8.5 x 11, but I cut them to
>>size. I even use relatively good paper from the Dollar store. Yup, 20
>>high gloss 4x6 for $1.00! They take a while to dry though, and don't
>>handle finger prints well. The manufacturer recommends 24 hours for
>>drying. But this paper is great for testing or even permanent prints
>>behind glass / plastic. Once dry
>
>
>
> I've read somewhere that this "mistery" of instant drying is basically in
> some sort of ceramic layer at the top of the paper, so ink flows under this
> layer, making you "feel" like it's dry. You can also touch such photo
> immediately without any harm. But still, you must leave it several hours in
> dark place in open before you close it under glass or similar.
>

This would explain why I can wash off 100% of the ink from some
"papers", right down to the shiny white plastic, while certain instant
dry papers have little or no effect under water. In other words, no
damage at all. The only way to remove the image is to scrape it off the
sheet with a knife! Fascinating.

-Taliesyn
February 7, 2005 7:12:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Although I can afford the Canon inks I refill my I960 cartridges with MIS
inks - very fast to do and costs very little. Look at the following site -
http://www.neilslade.com/papers/inkjetstuff.html for lots of info on Canon
printers and compatable inks. If you decide to refill you can buy the MIS
ink and purchase plugs only from Computer Friends. They fit the fill hole
in the OEM cartridges after you punch the sealing ball into the cartridge to
permit refilling.

The best buy I've seen in paper is the Kirkland Glossy Photo paper from
Costco - $19 for 125 8 1/2 x 11 sheets. This paper gives comparable results
to the Canon Pro glossy paper although I don't know about the longevity of
the prints. A half hour with a paper cutter (with a guide bar to make
repeated uniform cuts) and you get three 4x6 sheets from each 8 1/2 x 11
sheet. A full box yields 375 4x6 sheets at about five cents per.

It is easy to periodically open the printer lid and inspect the ink
cartridges. If you refill you should not let the ink reservoir get empty.
When I see the lowest level of all the cartridges at 2/3rds to 3/4ths empty
I refill them all.

"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>
> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
> printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
> computer?
>
> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
> BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
> if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>
> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
> compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>
> MB
>
>
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 9:03:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>
> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
> printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
> computer?
>
> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
> BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
> if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>
> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
> compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>

The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is getting
low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this
and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced. You actually get
quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low' tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost a
bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings
and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do not contain the
prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own while often
successful can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done
right.
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 9:59:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>
>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>
>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>computer?
>>
>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>
>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
>>compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>
>
>
> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
> low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is getting
> low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this
> and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced. You actually get
> quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low' tank.
>
> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
> black gradient in photos.
>
> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost a
> bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings
> and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do not contain the
> prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own while often
> successful can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done
> right.

The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which
isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much
because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by
visual inspection.
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 10:51:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>
>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>
>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>computer?
>>
>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>
>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
>>compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>
>
>
> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
> low and ink out warnings.

No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL
cartridges (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).

> It will first warn you when the tank is getting
> low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this
> and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced.

I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
in this group mention that before.

>
> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
> black gradient in photos.

The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.

> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost a
> bit more,

A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
refill for $5 a set.

> the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings
> and wasting paper to get it right.

The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.

> Third party carts also do not contain the
> prism required for the ink sensor

Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.

> and refilling your own while often successful

Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
fill hole properly. Simple as that.

> can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done
> right.
>

Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.

-Taliesyn
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 8:53:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Where did you get those carts and what brand are they? Where do you get
your ink and what brand is it? Any head clogs? How often do you
print? How about fading? Are the colors the same as Canon?

I am afraid of a head clog or a big mess so I begrudgingly use Canon
cart replacements. I also want the max in permanence and true color. I
also want to print b&w without changing carts.

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:

> PC Medic wrote:
>
>> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>
>>> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>
>>> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>> the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
>>> the computer?
>>>
>>> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
>>> cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
>>> the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
>>> cartridge. Correct?
>>>
>>> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>> cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>
>>
>>
>> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
>> ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
>> getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message
>> will indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
>> replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
>> tank.
>>
>> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as
>> true black gradient in photos.
>>
>> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may
>> cost a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with
>> driver settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts
>> also do not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and
>> refilling your own while often successful can also lead to poor image
>> quality and other issues if not done right.
>
>
> The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
> OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
> printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
> don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading
> which isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that
> much because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be
> determined by visual inspection.
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 8:53:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Here is my response to a recent post asking a similar question:

"It is an ebay seller. I suggest sending them a message at
wiredbeans@hotmail.com and placing an order for the exact number and
color of cartridges you need. Also, you can still pay through Paypal. I
rarely need the same number of each color since our photo printer use
six ink tanks (i9100 & i960) and ordering this way allows me to mix and
match quantities and colors. I got the best price by doing this instead
of bidding through ebay. I order about 50 cartridges at once to keep
the per unit cost low. Here's a link to their ebay listings for Canon
compatible cartridges: http://tinyurl.com/52c6k

Their cartridges have a 25% larger ink reservoir than most others so you
get more prints per cartridge. I can personally confirm the reservoirs
are noticeably larger than OEM Canon cartridges. As for the print
quality, I can't see much, if any, difference from the Canon ink.
Definitely not enough to justify six times the cost."

The only clogging I have had is with the i9100 printer (also have an
i960, MP780, N2000 all using compatibles) but it hasn't been anything
excessive. We might have a minor clog that needs a cleaning cycle to
correct once every 2-3 cartridge sets. I don't attribute this the
cartridges though as this printer has printed thousands of photos of
varying sizes. The other printers work flawlessly with the compatible
carts.

As for longevity I really don't understand where this is such a big
concern unless the prints are for a client. None of our prints have
faded at all. Maybe if I laid them on the dash of the car for weeks on
end it might be a problem. The ones sitting in picture frames and photo
albums are as clear as the day they were printed. The best way to
preserve personal photos (or any for that matter) is to make sure to
keep a copy of the digital image file. That way it will never degrade
and you can print a new one anytime you desire. IMO, print longevity is
determined more by the paper used than the ink.

measekite wrote:
> Where did you get those carts and what brand are they? Where do you get
> your ink and what brand is it? Any head clogs? How often do you
> print? How about fading? Are the colors the same as Canon?
>
> I am afraid of a head clog or a big mess so I begrudgingly use Canon
> cart replacements. I also want the max in permanence and true color. I
> also want to print b&w without changing carts.
>
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>> PC Medic wrote:
>>
>>> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>>
>>>> We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>> cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>>
>>>> Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>>> the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
>>>> the computer?
>>>>
>>>> Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
>>>> cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
>>>> the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
>>>> cartridge. Correct?
>>>>
>>>> Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>> cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
>>> ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
>>> getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message
>>> will indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
>>> replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
>>> tank.
>>>
>>> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as
>>> true black gradient in photos.
>>>
>>> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may
>>> cost a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with
>>> driver settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts
>>> also do not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and
>>> refilling your own while often successful can also lead to poor image
>>> quality and other issues if not done right.
>>
>>
>>
>> The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
>> OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
>> printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
>> don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading
>> which isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that
>> much because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be
>> determined by visual inspection.
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 8:56:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Taliesyn, you are right on the mark with your comments. I agree completely.
--
Ron Cohen

"Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:37aavoF56r279U1@individual.net...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>
>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>
>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>computer?
>>>
>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>>
>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>
>>
>>
>> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
>> low and ink out warnings.
>
> No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
> (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
> (just plastic, aint' it?).
>
>> It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
>> cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
>> will stop until the cartridge is replaced.
>
> I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
> in this group mention that before.
>
>>
>> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>> black gradient in photos.
>
> The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.
>
>> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>> a bit more,
>
> A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
> refill for $5 a set.
>
>> the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
>> wasting paper to get it right.
>
> The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
> Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
> for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.
>
>> Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
>> sensor
>
> Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
> cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
> (printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
> dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.
>
>> and refilling your own while often successful
>
> Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
> blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
> cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
> should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
> cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
> fill hole properly. Simple as that.
>
>> can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.
>>
>
> Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
> to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
> that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
> the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
> with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
> anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
> and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
> printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.
>
> -Taliesyn
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 5:45:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:D fSdnfdSS5NUdJLfRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>
>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>
>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>computer?
>>>
>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>>
>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>
>>
>>
>> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
>> low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is getting
>> low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate
>> this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced. You
>> actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low' tank.
>>
>> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>> black gradient in photos.
>>
>> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>> a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
>> settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do not
>> contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
>> while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
>> issues if not done right.
>
> The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the OEM
> pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000 printer
> more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I don't think
> it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which isn't the most
> accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much because the
> cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by visual
> inspection.

If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not compatibles
as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not licensed
to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due with regards to the
iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think it counts dots" at any
point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While you are correct that the
carts are clear and you certainly could visually inspect them each time you
wanted to know the ink level, this certainly would not be convenient and
would waste ink.
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:02:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I've been following that thread and I while it is interesting, there are
some inconsistencies. Example, first he states that Formulabs ink is one of
the favorites, then later he slams it. From what I saw of the samples, none
of them seemed any good. The test samples were made using cotton swabs and
that could also have a direct bearing upon the amount of ink deposited on
the paper. Which brands got too much or too little? FWIW. I've been using
Formulabs ink since late 2002 on a variety of papers and with several
different Canon printers. I don't care how my prints are stored, handled or
displayed since any damaged ones can be easily reprinted. However, prints in
excess of two years old have not shown any detectible fading and this
includes ones taped to the refrigerator and ones in my office where the
lights are on 24/7. I've also reprinted some of the older works for
comparison purposes and I could not see any difference. The experiences I've
had with this ink is not unlike that of numerous other posters who've
written about Formulabs ink. Overall, I'd say the user satisfaction with
this brand is very high. Additionally what many users fail to understand is
that fading is dependent upon more than just the ink. Each brand of ink
performs differently with various papers. Some papers are more prone to
fading regardless of the ink brand. Microporous (instant dry) is reported to
fade more rapidly than swellable polymer papers since the SP coating
encapsulates the ink thereby reducing it's exposure to the atmosphere. The
downside to SP papers (i.e. Kodak) is a complete lack of moisture resistance
compared to the microporous papers which can be held under running water
without damage.
--
Ron Cohen

"colinco" <colincomma@yawhoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c7acdf0f8a4ff2c9898b5@news.xtra.co.nz...
> In article Taliesyn says...
>> My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.
>>
>>
>
> Informal fade test here
> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&m...
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:02:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Hello, Ron!
You wrote on Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:52:07 GMT:

FWIW, I've not been in this as long as Ron, but agree whole-heartedly with
his observations.

Elaborating a bit on the paper, I was at a friend's house where they had a
picture I had printed on an "off-brand" (i.e. not OD, Canon or Red River)
paper, possible Staples or even Kodak, and it was terribly faded. Similar
time frame prints on my refrigerator still look great after a couple of
years.

Thanks.

Colonel Blip.
E-mail: colonel.blip@removethespambigfoot.com

RC> I've been following that thread and I while it is interesting, there
RC> are some inconsistencies. Example, first he states that Formulabs ink
RC> is one of the favorites, then later he slams it. From what I saw of the
RC> samples, none of them seemed any good. The test samples were made using
RC> cotton swabs and that could also have a direct bearing upon the amount
RC> of ink deposited on the paper. Which brands got too much or too little?
RC> FWIW. I've been using Formulabs ink since late 2002 on a variety of
RC> papers and with several different Canon printers. I don't care how my
RC> prints are stored, handled or displayed since any damaged ones can be
RC> easily reprinted. However, prints in excess of two years old have not
RC> shown any detectible fading and this includes ones taped to the
RC> refrigerator and ones in my office where the lights are on 24/7. I've
RC> also reprinted some of the older works for comparison purposes and I
RC> could not see any difference. The experiences I've had with this ink is
RC> not unlike that of numerous other posters who've written about
RC> Formulabs ink. Overall, I'd say the user satisfaction with this brand
RC> is very high. Additionally what many users fail to understand is that
RC> fading is dependent upon more than just the ink. Each brand of ink
RC> performs differently with various papers. Some papers are more prone to
RC> fading regardless of the ink brand. Microporous (instant dry) is
RC> reported to fade more rapidly than swellable polymer papers since the
RC> SP coating encapsulates the ink thereby reducing it's exposure to the
RC> atmosphere. The downside to SP papers (i.e. Kodak) is a complete lack
RC> of moisture resistance compared to the microporous papers which can be
RC> held under running water without damage.
RC> --
RC> Ron Cohen

RC> "colinco" <colincomma@yawhoo.com> wrote in message
RC> news:MPG.1c7acdf0f8a4ff2c9898b5@news.xtra.co.nz...
??>> In article Taliesyn says...



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:18:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:37aavoF56r279U1@individual.net...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>
>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>
>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>computer?
>>>
>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>>
>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>
>>
>>
>> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
>> low and ink out warnings.
>
> No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
> (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
> (just plastic, aint' it?).
>

Certainly is and were you aware of how the printer functions you would know
that.
You have of course noticed two seperate chambers in these cartridges have
you not? Perhaps you would care to explain your design in how the printer
will not waste the significant amount of ink in the filter side of the
cartridge simply because the prism in the liquid only chamber is now
exposed?

And if ALL your cartridges have prisms, you are buying genuine Canon inks or
refills, not different brand cartridges, just different brand ink inside.

>> It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
>> cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
>> will stop until the cartridge is replaced.
>
> I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
> in this group mention that before.
>

I assure you that if you go to print and the ink is empty the printer status
monitor should pop-up a window showing that an ink is empty. Now of course
you can force it to start again, but would not be advisable.

>>
>> The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>> black gradient in photos.
>
> The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.
>

So you word it differently... does not change what I stated.
We could get technical and say BCI-3eBk is for text and BCI6Bk is for
photos.
But then that would not be 100% accurate either as there are exceptions
based on application, and media type setting in driver.

>> My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>> a bit more,
>
> A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
> refill for $5 a set.
>

Now wait, are you refilling or buying 3rd party cartridges. Lets keep your
story straight.
I am not going into the whole cost analysis thing. It has been covered too
many times in this and other forums.

>> the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
>> wasting paper to get it right.
>
> The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
> Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
> for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.
>

Negligible to you perhaps. I can assure you it is significant to others.

>> Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
>> sensor
>
> Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
> cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
> (printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
> dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.
>

I see these 3rd party carts all the time without the prism. So your
statement is blatently incorrect. You may want to be sure you are not
confusing ink with cartridges also.

>> and refilling your own while often successful
>
> Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
> blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
> cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
> should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
> cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
> fill hole properly. Simple as that.
>

And others have not been so lucky as you. Note I said it is 'often
successful" as unlike you I am aware there are two sides to this issue.
While they should flow, they do not always, while they should not leak, they
sometimes do.

>> can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.
>>
>
> Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
> to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
> that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
> the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
> with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
> anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
> and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
> printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.
>
> -Taliesyn

You contradict yourself here, so I will not add to it.
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:28:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:D fSdnfdSS5NUdJLfRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>
>>PC Medic wrote:
>>
>>>"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>>
>>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>>computer?
>>>>
>>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>>>
>>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
>>>low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is getting
>>>low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate
>>>this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced. You
>>>actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low' tank.
>>>
>>>The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>>>black gradient in photos.
>>>
>>>My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>>>a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
>>>settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do not
>>>contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
>>>while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
>>>issues if not done right.
>>
>>The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the OEM
>>pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000 printer
>>more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I don't think
>>it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which isn't the most
>>accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much because the
>>cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by visual
>>inspection.
>
>
> If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not compatibles
> as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not licensed
> to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due with regards to the
> iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think it counts dots" at any
> point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While you are correct that the
> carts are clear and you certainly could visually inspect them each time you
> wanted to know the ink level, this certainly would not be convenient and
> would waste ink.

The compatible carts I use have a prism. That is a fact that I "know"
too. You are the first person I have seen to state Canon printers
"count the dots" for use in showing ink levels. Maybe others here can
confirm this or you can give a source to back up the claim. If it did
then an initially half filled cart wouldn't show as near empty when it
really was. Also, removing a cart to inspect it does not waste ink. I
can remove it and replace it without spilling a drop and this operation
doesn't require a head alignment or cleaning procedure. Also, I don't
inspect them every time I want to know the ink level - only when the
"Low Ink" warning has been indicated for a cart.
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:04:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:37aavoF56r279U1@individual.net...
>
>>PC Medic wrote:
>>
>>>"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>>
>>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
>>>>printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>>computer?
>>>>
>>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
>>>>if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?
>>>>
>>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
>>>low and ink out warnings.
>>
>>No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
>>(any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
>>(just plastic, aint' it?).
>>
>
>
> Certainly is and were you aware of how the printer functions you would know
> that.
> You have of course noticed two seperate chambers in these cartridges have
> you not? Perhaps you would care to explain your design in how the printer
> will not waste the significant amount of ink in the filter side of the
> cartridge simply because the prism in the liquid only chamber is now
> exposed?

Huh? Check the Internet on how the prism functions in the
cartridge.

> And if ALL your cartridges have prisms, you are buying genuine Canon inks or
> refills, not different brand cartridges, just different brand ink inside.
>

First of all you cannot buy Canon refills, only new Canon cartridges.
Canon doesn't believe in refilling. And I've never ever found a
dealer stuffing their ink into second-hand, used Canon cartridges.
Who would be the idiot to go to all that trouble of procuring used,
empty Canon cartridges! The people who sell Canon cartridges use
only brand new, factory fresh cartrides, and not made by Canon.
And they are generally of a much cheaper standard. But they all
have a prism!!!

>>>It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
>>>cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
>>>will stop until the cartridge is replaced.
>>
>>I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
>>in this group mention that before.
>>
>
>
> I assure you that if you go to print and the ink is empty the printer status
> monitor should pop-up a window showing that an ink is empty.

Yes, I've seen that. That's your last warning. But it's only a warning,
it doesn't take the "key out of the ignition".

> Now of course you can force it to start again, but would not be advisable.
>

Agreed.

>
>>>The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>>>black gradient in photos.
>>
>>The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.
>>
>
> So you word it differently... does not change what I stated.

No, I worded it correctly.

Yes, indeed it changes what you stated! According to you they are used
for text and photos with no mention that each particular cartridge has
only one function. According to me, the large is for text, the small is
for photos. That is very different!

> We could get technical and say BCI-3eBk is for text and BCI6Bk is for
> photos.

That's what the original poster wanted to know. Why reply with basically
what he already knew???

> But then that would not be 100% accurate either as there are exceptions
> based on application, and media type setting in driver.

He wanted the general rule, not the odd exception.

>
>>>My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>>>a bit more,
>>
>>A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
>>refill for $5 a set.
>>
>
>
> Now wait, are you refilling or buying 3rd party cartridges. Lets keep your
> story straight.

If I sometimes speak of refilling and sometimes of "3rd party
cartridges', that's because I run two printers - one with new
3rd party cartridges (not made by Canon and they have a prism ;-) and
the other I refill with bulk ink.

> I am not going into the whole cost analysis thing. It has been covered too
> many times in this and other forums.
>
>
>>>the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
>>>wasting paper to get it right.
>>
>>The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
>>Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
>>for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.
>>
>
> Negligible to you perhaps. I can assure you it is significant to others.
>

"They" would be the minority in the millions of satisfied people who buy
3rd party inks and cartridges. In the ten years (approximately) that
I've been using 3rd party inks/cartridges, I've never been forced to
make any color corrections. So I don't see it as a stumbling block to
great printing for anyone.

>
>>>Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
>>>sensor
>>
>>Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
>>cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
>>(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
>>dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.
>
>
> I see these 3rd party carts all the time without the prism. So your
> statement is blatently incorrect. You may want to be sure you are not
> confusing ink with cartridges also.
>

Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better
dealers ;-)

>
>>>and refilling your own while often successful
>>
>>Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
>>blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
>>cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
>>should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
>>cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
>>fill hole properly. Simple as that.
>>
>
>
> And others have not been so lucky as you.

I fail to see where the element of luck is involved if you follow
simple instructions. On the other hand, if you're not mechanically
inclined, as I'm beginning to think, I could see problems.

> Note I said it is 'often
> successful" as unlike you I am aware there are two sides to this issue.
> While they should flow, they do not always, while they should not leak, they
> sometimes do.
>

I refill my two printers and my sister's Canon. So I've probably filled
at least 50 cartridges so far, and they all worked first first time
trying. I can't be "lucky" 50 times!!! Give me a break. If they leak
it's not because refilling is a sometimes thing, it's because I did a
bum job sealing it, simple as that.

>
>>>can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.
>>>
>>
>>Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
>>to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
>>that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
>>the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
>>with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
>>anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
>>and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
>>printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.
>>
>>-Taliesyn
>
>
> You contradict yourself here, so I will not add to it.
>

Where, oh please?

"Universal" and "works in all printers" inks should be BANNED.
That's my thought. These inks are not (fully) compatible with ANY
printer and cartridge type!

-Taliesyn
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 1:20:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:o dOdnVcrBrNNlIzfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:D fSdnfdSS5NUdJLfRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>>
>>>PC Medic wrote:
>>>
>>>>"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>>>
>>>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>>>>the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>>>computer?
>>>>>
>>>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I
>>>>>assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge.
>>>>>Correct?
>>>>>
>>>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
>>>>ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
>>>>getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will
>>>>indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
>>>>replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
>>>>tank.
>>>>
>>>>The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>>>>black gradient in photos.
>>>>
>>>>My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>>>>a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
>>>>settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do
>>>>not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
>>>>while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
>>>>issues if not done right.
>>>
>>>The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
>>>OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
>>>printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
>>>don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which
>>>isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much
>>>because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by
>>>visual inspection.
>>
>>
>> If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
>> compatibles as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon
>> and not licensed to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due
>> with regards to the iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think
>> it counts dots" at any point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While
>> you are correct that the carts are clear and you certainly could visually
>> inspect them each time you wanted to know the ink level, this certainly
>> would not be convenient and would waste ink.
>
> The compatible carts I use have a prism. That is a fact that I "know"
> too. You are the first person I have seen to state Canon printers "count
> the dots" for use in showing ink levels. Maybe others here can confirm
> this or you can give a source to back up the claim. If it did then an
> initially half filled cart wouldn't show as near empty when it really was.
> Also, removing a cart to inspect it does not waste ink. I can remove it
> and replace it without spilling a drop and this operation doesn't require
> a head alignment or cleaning procedure. Also, I don't inspect them every
> time I want to know the ink level - only when the "Low Ink" warning has
> been indicated for a cart.

I have seen many carts and have yet to see these, guess I have just been
lucky.
Canon Service Manuals are one place you will find this information about dot
count. Many past threads here in the newsgroup and other forums are other
places it is readily available. As for your further statement, Remove a cart
from your printer and place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the
printer. This will (of course) result in an ink out error for that color.
Now open the printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the
light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so
it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to do
a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on earth
would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the level????
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 2:04:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:o dOdnVcrBrNNlIzfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
>
>>PC Medic wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
>>>news:D fSdnfdSS5NUdJLfRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>PC Medic wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>>>>>the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
>>>>>>computer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
>>>>>>BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I
>>>>>>assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge.
>>>>>>Correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
>>>>>ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
>>>>>getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will
>>>>>indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
>>>>>replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
>>>>>tank.
>>>>>
>>>>>The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
>>>>>black gradient in photos.
>>>>>
>>>>>My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
>>>>>a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
>>>>>settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do
>>>>>not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
>>>>>while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
>>>>>issues if not done right.
>>>>
>>>>The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
>>>>OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
>>>>printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
>>>>don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which
>>>>isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much
>>>>because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by
>>>>visual inspection.
>>>
>>>
>>>If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
>>>compatibles as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon
>>>and not licensed to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due
>>>with regards to the iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think
>>>it counts dots" at any point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While
>>>you are correct that the carts are clear and you certainly could visually
>>>inspect them each time you wanted to know the ink level, this certainly
>>>would not be convenient and would waste ink.
>>
>>The compatible carts I use have a prism. That is a fact that I "know"
>>too. You are the first person I have seen to state Canon printers "count
>>the dots" for use in showing ink levels. Maybe others here can confirm
>>this or you can give a source to back up the claim. If it did then an
>>initially half filled cart wouldn't show as near empty when it really was.
>>Also, removing a cart to inspect it does not waste ink. I can remove it
>>and replace it without spilling a drop and this operation doesn't require
>>a head alignment or cleaning procedure. Also, I don't inspect them every
>>time I want to know the ink level - only when the "Low Ink" warning has
>>been indicated for a cart.
>
>
> I have seen many carts and have yet to see these, guess I have just been
> lucky.

I've seen many carts of many brands and have never seen one without the
prism.

> Canon Service Manuals are one place you will find this information about dot
> count. Many past threads here in the newsgroup and other forums are other
> places it is readily available.

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
to determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup
threads or forums?

> As for your further statement, Remove a cart
> from your printer and place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the
> printer. This will (of course) result in an ink out error for that color.
> Now open the printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
> completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
> initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the
> light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so
> it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
> are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and
it wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the
center position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability
to know what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.

> And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
> operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to do
> a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
> Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
> result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on earth
> would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 2:32:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:

> "Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:37d3ksF5bht31U1@individual.net...
>>
>>Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
>>of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
>>the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
>>prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
>>cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
>>my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better dealers
>>;-)
>>
>
>
> Perhaps your carts are made by one of the many that purchase and reuse
> empties to refill with there own ink.

> I have seen many of these and they do a damn good job of placing a new cap
> and all on the cart to appear as it is manufactured new by them. Refilling
> them in this manner is one way they are able to cut costs.
>


First you can't seem to locate the prism and then all cartridges
with a prism look the same to you.

Anyone with even half a brain can see the difference between a Canon
made cartridge and a (non-Canon) generic. The 3 others I have are made
of rather cheap-looking plastic, sloppily finished, yet all slightly
different from each other in design, material, and finish. In other
words, they were all made by different manufacturers. I have another
one, a rather nice one that I bought new (virgin). Empty. They call them
"blanks". The sponge is pure white. Never used.... Did I mention they
were new? Yes, and they come with the invisible prism that you can't
seem to locate with a radar detector. These have the rather neat idea of
having a built in plastic screw for the fill hole at the top. Obviously,
it's not a Canon made cartridge. Alotofthing also sells never used brand
new cartridges. These are different from my other blanks. They have
small square orange caps with 4 hooks that latch onto 4 small holes
(indentations) on the sides of the cartridges. Very handy, no need for
rubber bands to hold the cap on. They're quite nice too. And if you tell
me all these "blanks" are just reworked, doctored, new clean sponge
installed, Canon cartridges, I will either scream, commit suicide, pull
out my remaining hair, or run naked down the street hollering "I can't
take this guy any longer, he's driving me insane!"

-Taliesyn
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 9:49:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>
> Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
> different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
> the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
> installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
> cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of dots.
> It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
> determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
> or forums?
>

For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is indicated.
It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other level prior to
that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low and empty and none
of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to get
yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are trying to
act so knowlegable about.



>> As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
>> an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of course)
>> result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer and place
>> a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely covered) in that
>> same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the status monitor
>> will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the optical sensor no
>> longer reflects back through the prism, so it logically assumes you
>> placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There are three detected
>> levels Full, Low and Empty.
>
> I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
> wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
> position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
> what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.
>

That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover it
assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels when the
cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would have picked
up on this by now.


>> And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
>> operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
>> do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
>> Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
>> result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
>> earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
>> level????
>
> It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
> cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
> low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.

I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a small
amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is incorrect.
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 9:51:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:37dcb0F5713lvU1@individual.net...
> PC Medic wrote:
>
>> "Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
>> news:37d3ksF5bht31U1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
>>>of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
>>>the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
>>>prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
>>>cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
>>>my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better dealers
>>>;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps your carts are made by one of the many that purchase and reuse
>> empties to refill with there own ink.
>
>> I have seen many of these and they do a damn good job of placing a new
>> cap and all on the cart to appear as it is manufactured new by them.
>> Refilling them in this manner is one way they are able to cut costs.
>>
>
>
> First you can't seem to locate the prism and then all cartridges
> with a prism look the same to you.
>
> Anyone with even half a brain can see the difference between a Canon
> made cartridge and a (non-Canon) generic. The 3 others I have are made
> of rather cheap-looking plastic, sloppily finished, yet all slightly
> different from each other in design, material, and finish. In other
> words, they were all made by different manufacturers. I have another
> one, a rather nice one that I bought new (virgin). Empty. They call them
> "blanks". The sponge is pure white. Never used.... Did I mention they
> were new? Yes, and they come with the invisible prism that you can't
> seem to locate with a radar detector. These have the rather neat idea of
> having a built in plastic screw for the fill hole at the top. Obviously,
> it's not a Canon made cartridge. Alotofthing also sells never used brand
> new cartridges. These are different from my other blanks. They have
> small square orange caps with 4 hooks that latch onto 4 small holes
> (indentations) on the sides of the cartridges. Very handy, no need for
> rubber bands to hold the cap on. They're quite nice too. And if you tell
> me all these "blanks" are just reworked, doctored, new clean sponge
> installed, Canon cartridges, I will either scream, commit suicide, pull
> out my remaining hair, or run naked down the street hollering "I can't
> take this guy any longer, he's driving me insane!"
>

You promise?!
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:10:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article PC Medic says...
> If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not compatibles
> as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not licensed
> to anyone.
>
there are carts with modified design to sidestep the patent issue
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:10:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"colinco" <colincomma@yawhoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c7bccd93dc33179898b9@news.xtra.co.nz...
> In article PC Medic says...
>> If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
>> compatibles
>> as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not
>> licensed
>> to anyone.
>>
> there are carts with modified design to sidestep the patent issue

I have yet to see these, care to name a brand so I can check them out?
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:28:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
> news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>
>>Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
>>different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
>>the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
>>installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
>>cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of dots.
>>It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
>>determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
>>or forums?
>>
>
>
> For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
> comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
> not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is indicated.
> It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other level prior to
> that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low and empty and none
> of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
> I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
> believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to get
> yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are trying to
> act so knowlegable about.

You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type
of cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of
mistake on something simple then I am suspect of anything you post.
Especially since you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.

Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.

>>>As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
>>>an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of course)
>>>result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer and place
>>>a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely covered) in that
>>>same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the status monitor
>>>will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the optical sensor no
>>>longer reflects back through the prism, so it logically assumes you
>>>placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There are three detected
>>>levels Full, Low and Empty.
>>
>>I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
>>wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
>>position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
>>what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.
>>
>
>
> That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover it
> assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels when the
> cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would have picked
> up on this by now.

Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty
cart? The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the
cover is opened and closed.

>>>And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
>>>operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
>>>do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
>>>Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
>>>result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
>>>earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
>>>level????
>>
>>It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
>>cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
>>low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.
>
>
> I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a small
> amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is incorrect.

Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it
up if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
brush up on the MP780's design. ;) 
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:38:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article PC Medic says...
>
> "colinco" <colincomma@yawhoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1c7bccd93dc33179898b9@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > In article PC Medic says...
> >> If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
> >> compatibles
> >> as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not
> >> licensed
> >> to anyone.
> >>
> > there are carts with modified design to sidestep the patent issue
>
> I have yet to see these, care to name a brand so I can check them out?
>
>
>
>
For info only, never used them

" You may notice the compatible cartridge varies in its design when
compared to the original branded product. The Jet Tec compatible
cartridge is different because the design has been altered to ensure the
compatible cartridge does not infringe patents owned by the original
manufacturer. These changes will NOT affect the quality of the
printout."
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 9:08:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:bsidnToFv5iamo_fRVn-qA@comcast.com...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
>> news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>>
>>>Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
>>>different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
>>>the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
>>>installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
>>>cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
>>>dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
>>>determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
>>>or forums?
>>>
>>
>>
>> For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
>> comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
>> not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
>> indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
>> level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
>> and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
>> I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
>> believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to
>> get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are
>> trying to act so knowlegable about.
>
> You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
> You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
> MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type of
> cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of mistake on
> something simple then I am suspect of anything you post. Especially since
> you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.
>

Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but here
is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to which I
responded.....

"I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
documents."

Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would be
quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of BCI-3's
and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.

This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that same
thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.

> Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
> indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
> Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
> the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.
>

I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works. Whether
you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose sleep over
it.

>>>>As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
>>>>an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of
>>>>course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer
>>>>and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely
>>>>covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the
>>>>status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the
>>>>optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so it
>>>>logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
>>>>are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.
>>>
>>>I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
>>>wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
>>>position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
>>>what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
>> it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
>> when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
>> have picked up on this by now.
>
> Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty cart?
> The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover is
> opened and closed.
>

Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
again.

>>>>And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
>>>>operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
>>>>do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
>>>>Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
>>>>result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
>>>>earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
>>>>level????
>>>
>>>It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
>>>cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
>>>low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.
>>
>>
>> I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a
>> small amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is
>> incorrect.
>
> Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it up
> if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
> regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
> being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
> brush up on the MP780's design. ;) 
>
>

The ink was brought up 'again' as you stated it did not use any when the lid
was opened and closed.
I did not want the unsuspecting newbie to take you inaccurate info as fact.
I am hardly here to impress you, though it would be helpful if someone
educated you a bit. As for me, I am quite familiar with the MP780 and many
other printers design and operation.
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 10:10:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:bsidnToFv5iamo_fRVn-qA@comcast.com...
>
>>PC Medic wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
>>>news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
>>>>different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
>>>>the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
>>>>installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
>>>>cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
>>>>dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
>>>>determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
>>>>or forums?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
>>>comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
>>>not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
>>>indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
>>>level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
>>>and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
>>>I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
>>>believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to
>>>get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are
>>>trying to act so knowlegable about.
>>
>>You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
>>You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
>>MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type of
>>cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of mistake on
>>something simple then I am suspect of anything you post. Especially since
>>you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.
>>
>
>
> Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but here
> is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to which I
> responded.....
>
> "I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
> performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
> Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
> can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
> more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
> documents."
>
> Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
> not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
> difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would be
> quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of BCI-3's
> and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.

Here's the words from your own keyboard:

"Just an FYI, the MP780 uses BCI-6 not '3'. While they will fit and
will not cause physical harm using them may result in slight color shift
in photos."

The author of the thread said he had an i960 for printing photos so my
reply was for black and white printing only since that is his main use
of the MP780. I guess you missed that part of the thread. I never said
the MP780 didn't use BCI-6 carts but you specifically said it doesn't
use the "3" carts. Are you really so anal to get hung up over me not
adding the "Bk" to the cart designation?!?! Also, last time I checked
(I have both carts here at my desk) the "3" carts are a different size
than the "6" carts and don't fit in the same space. You were not wrong
once but twice in that post.

> This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that same
> thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.

This gave me a chuckle coming from you.

>>Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
>>indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
>>Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
>>the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.
>>
>
>
> I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
> should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
> There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works. Whether
> you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose sleep over
> it.

Now I just read a thread from Tom Klimas in this group that states:

"That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple."

Now Tom says he got this information directly from a Canon tech. Who do
I believe now?

>>>>>As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
>>>>>an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of
>>>>>course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer
>>>>>and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely
>>>>>covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the
>>>>>status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the
>>>>>optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so it
>>>>>logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
>>>>>are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.
>>>>
>>>>I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
>>>>wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
>>>>position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
>>>>what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
>>>it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
>>>when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
>>>have picked up on this by now.
>>
>>Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty cart?
>>The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover is
>>opened and closed.
>>
>
>
> Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
> It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
> cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
> again.

Here goes Captain Anal again.

>>>>>And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
>>>>>operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
>>>>>do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
>>>>>Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
>>>>>result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
>>>>>earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
>>>>>level????
>>>>
>>>>It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
>>>>cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
>>>>low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.
>>>
>>>
>>>I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a
>>>small amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is
>>>incorrect.
>>
>>Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it up
>>if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
>>regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
>>being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
>>brush up on the MP780's design. ;) 
>>
>>
>
>
> The ink was brought up 'again' as you stated it did not use any when the lid
> was opened and closed.
> I did not want the unsuspecting newbie to take you inaccurate info as fact.
> I am hardly here to impress you, though it would be helpful if someone
> educated you a bit. As for me, I am quite familiar with the MP780 and many
> other printers design and operation.

I can see you're REAL familiar with the MP780. As for you not being
here to impress me, don't worry, you haven't.
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:21:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:U-adnTwHyOHXEo_fRVn-uw@comcast.com...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:bsidnToFv5iamo_fRVn-qA@comcast.com...
>>
>>>PC Medic wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
>>>>>different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels
>>>>>then the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
>>>>>installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
>>>>>cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
>>>>>dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
>>>>>to determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup
>>>>>threads or forums?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
>>>>comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count
>>>>does not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
>>>>indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
>>>>level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
>>>>and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
>>>>I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set
>>>>on believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay
>>>>to get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you
>>>>are trying to act so knowlegable about.
>>>
>>>You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
>>>You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
>>>MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type
>>>of cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of
>>>mistake on something simple then I am suspect of anything you post.
>>>Especially since you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but
>> here is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to
>> which I responded.....
>>
>> "I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
>> performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
>> Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
>> can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
>> more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
>> documents."
>>
>> Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
>> not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
>> difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would
>> be quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of
>> BCI-3's and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.
>
> Here's the words from your own keyboard:
>
> "Just an FYI, the MP780 uses BCI-6 not '3'. While they will fit and will
> not cause physical harm using them may result in slight color shift in
> photos."
>
> The author of the thread said he had an i960 for printing photos so my
> reply was for black and white printing only since that is his main use of
> the MP780. I guess you missed that part of the thread. I never said the
> MP780 didn't use BCI-6 carts but you specifically said it doesn't use the
> "3" carts. Are you really so anal to get hung up over me not adding the
> "Bk" to the cart designation?!?! Also, last time I checked (I have both
> carts here at my desk) the "3" carts are a different size than the "6"
> carts and don't fit in the same space. You were not wrong once but twice
> in that post.
>

BCI-3 and BCI-6Bk are different in size. BCI-3 and BCI-6 Colors will in fact
fit the same slots.
Again you did not initially specify BK, C, Y, M, PC, PM R, G etc, etc.......



>> This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that
>> same thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.
>
> This gave me a chuckle coming from you.
>



>>>Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
>>>indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
>>>Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
>>>the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
>> should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
>> There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works.
>> Whether you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose
>> sleep over it.
>
> Now I just read a thread from Tom Klimas in this group that states:
>
> "That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
> According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
> uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
> ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
> determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
> reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
> reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
> delivery system was intentionally kept simple."
>
> Now Tom says he got this information directly from a Canon tech. Who do I
> believe now?
>

Guess you need to read some more threads to figure that out. Or perhaps try
some Canon Technical Service Manuals, they are chock full of info.

The software does not determine the ink out it only displays the pop-up
after receiving the appropriate signal from the hardware.
The hardware does use a 'dot count' (print usage) after low ink sensor is
triggered, but DOES NOT use a timer. Software plays no part in the detection
at all and again only knows what the hardware tells it. (Though on several
models you can send a hard signal via the driver to reset the ROM's ink
out/low error). Exactly why one of the troubleshooting steps is to isolate
the unit from the computer to determine if the printer itself continues to
display the ink out error (indicated by sequence of flashes from power
light).

I work on these printers every day, am familiar with them and hate to say
it, but Tom got some (partially) bum info. Nope, no timer, no software.
Think about it (if you can), if a printer is networked and you print 250
pages from Computer A how the hell is the driver on Computer B to know this
and adjust its 'software' to indicate the same ink level? Remmeber they kept
it simple here!


>>>>>>As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and
>>>>>>place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will
>>>>>>(of course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the
>>>>>>printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
>>>>>>completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
>>>>>>initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because
>>>>>>the light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the
>>>>>>prism, so it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace
>>>>>>the empty. There are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.
>>>>>
>>>>>I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and
>>>>>it wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the
>>>>>center position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability
>>>>>to know what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
>>>>it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
>>>>when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
>>>>have picked up on this by now.
>>>
>>>Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty
>>>cart? The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover
>>>is opened and closed.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
>> It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
>> cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
>> again.
>
> Here goes Captain Anal again.
>

ROTFLMA
The rest of your gibberish has been removed and ignored as has most that
came before it.
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:43:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Taliesyn <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in
news:37aavoF56r279U1@individual.net:

> PC Medic wrote:
>> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>
>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>
>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>>the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
>>>the computer?
>>>
>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
>>>cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
>>>the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
>>>cartridge. Correct?
>>>
>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>
>>
>>
>> The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
>> ink low and ink out warnings.
>
> No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL
> cartridges (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
> (just plastic, aint' it?).
>


That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
delivery system was intentionally kept simple.
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:59:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...

> Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two different
> statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then the printer
> shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was installed and would
> therefor not indicate levels accurately when a cartridge is empty since it
> hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of dots. It seems to me that the Canon
> printers rely on the prism reading to determin ink levels.

It actually does both. If you look at the cartridge you will see a foam area
and a free ink area. The prism monitors the ink in the free ink area. When
this area gets empty the foam still will have ink. It is this ink that is then
drop-counted. At least that is what I would do if I had their system....

- Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 2:51:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

About how many 8x10 fotos can you get once the No ink warning pops up
without having to worry about damaging the print head?

Tom Klimas wrote:

>Taliesyn <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in
>news:37aavoF56r279U1@individual.net:
>
>
>
>>PC Medic wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Ub%Md.27731$0Y5.20412@fe06.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
>>>>cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:
>>>>
>>>>Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
>>>>the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
>>>>the computer?
>>>>
>>>>Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
>>>>cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
>>>>the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
>>>>cartridge. Correct?
>>>>
>>>>Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
>>>>cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
>>>ink low and ink out warnings.
>>>
>>>
>>No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL
>>cartridges (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
>>(just plastic, aint' it?).
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
>According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
>uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
>ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
>determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
>reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
>reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
>delivery system was intentionally kept simple.
>
>
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 2:51:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eWvQd.370$Pz7.53@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> About how many 8x10 fotos can you get once the No ink warning pops up
> without having to worry about damaging the print head?
>

I am assuming you mean once the 'Low Ink' warning pops up. There is
unfortunately no set answer to this as it will depend on media/paper being
used (as this affects amount of ink being dispersed), what ink is low (some
are used more often than others) and the color depth of the images being
printed. I have personally gotten as many as 15 and as few as 5 8x10's
after a low ink warning on both an iP3000 and an iP4000.
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 2:51:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:

> About how many 8x10 fotos can you get once the No ink warning pops up
> without having to worry about damaging the print head?
>

You really shouldn't print after the "No Ink" warning". It's there to
protect the print head. If I'm in the process of printing a photo and
a warning pops up, I will stop after the print and make the mandatory
change of cartridges. But I've only ever hit "out" once and I can't
remember why because I have a policy of changing ALL the BCI-6 car-
tridges as soon as one color indicates "low". I never wait till I'm flat
"out". Changing them all as a unit is much more convenient than stopping
every few minutes to change yet another color. The large black isn't
included in the set rotation as it operates on a different frequency.
Later I'll sit down, refill the whole set and place them in storage.
Right now I rotate 3 sets, and have two others on standby, but not
in rotation. Sound confusing? :-)

Anyway, with all these cartridges, you can see why I have no need for
squeezing every last drop of cyan, magenta or yellow out any one of them.

-Taliesyn


> Tom Klimas wrote:
>

>>
>> That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
>> According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the
>> driver uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about
>> how much ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use"
>> (as determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
>> reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
>> reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
>> delivery system was intentionally kept simple.
>>
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 8:18:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:U-adnTwHyOHXEo_fRVn-uw@comcast.com...
> PC Medic wrote:
>> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:bsidnToFv5iamo_fRVn-qA@comcast.com...
>>
>>>PC Medic wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
>>>>>different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels
>>>>>then the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
>>>>>installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
>>>>>cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
>>>>>dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
>>>>>to determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup
>>>>>threads or forums?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
>>>>comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count
>>>>does not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is
>>>>indicated. It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other
>>>>level prior to that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low
>>>>and empty and none of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
>>>>I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set
>>>>on believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay
>>>>to get yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you
>>>>are trying to act so knowlegable about.
>>>
>>>You have to pardon my lack of total belief in everything you state here.
>>>You responded to one of my posts to correct me about whether the Canon
>>>MP780 utilized a BCI-3eBk cartridge. You said it did not use that type
>>>of cartridge. You were blatantly wrong. If you make that sort of
>>>mistake on something simple then I am suspect of anything you post.
>>>Especially since you come across as being an expert on inkjet printers.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Actually you are incorrect. I hate to bring a second thread in here but
>> here is exactly what you stated in the MP780 thread you refer to and to
>> which I responded.....
>>
>> "I've had an MP780 for about a month and am extremely pleased with its
>> performance so far. It's easy to use and seems to be very well made.
>> Also, operating costs are very low since I use compatible cartridges. I
>> can get 5 BCI-3e cartridges for less than $10 which might make it as, or
>> more, cost effective than a laser printer when printing normal text
>> documents."
>>
>> Now note that ALL you state is that you can get "5 BCI-3e cartridges...."
>> not BCI-3eBk cartridges which you are claiming now. This makes a big
>> difference. Considering the MP780 uses a total of 5 cartridges it would
>> be quite safe for one to assume you may have been referring to a set of
>> BCI-3's and not a multipack of BCI-3BK's.
>
> Here's the words from your own keyboard:
>
> "Just an FYI, the MP780 uses BCI-6 not '3'. While they will fit and will
> not cause physical harm using them may result in slight color shift in
> photos."
>
> The author of the thread said he had an i960 for printing photos so my
> reply was for black and white printing only since that is his main use of
> the MP780. I guess you missed that part of the thread. I never said the
> MP780 didn't use BCI-6 carts but you specifically said it doesn't use the
> "3" carts. Are you really so anal to get hung up over me not adding the
> "Bk" to the cart designation?!?! Also, last time I checked (I have both
> carts here at my desk) the "3" carts are a different size than the "6"
> carts and don't fit in the same space. You were not wrong once but twice
> in that post.
>
>> This was later clarified in your response and forgotten about in that
>> same thread. Did not realize you were still loosing sleep over this one.
>
> This gave me a chuckle coming from you.
>
>>>Now I can see where it might start counting dots after the prism reading
>>>indicates low ink. You need to be more clear when posting an answer.
>>>Unfortunately I still don't totally believe you for the reason I gave in
>>>the previous paragraph and your lack of providing backup information.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I was quite clear in and stated that is exactly how it works. Perhaps you
>> should re-read from the beginnng of threads.
>> There is also no 'might' about it and this IS exactly how it works.
>> Whether you believe is entirely up to you and I certainly will not lose
>> sleep over it.
>
> Now I just read a thread from Tom Klimas in this group that states:
>
> "That's right. Canon relies mostly on the prism for ink monitoring.
> According to a Canon tech, once the low ink warning pops up, the driver
> uses a "time/print useage" ESTIMATE (not a drop count!) about how much
> ink is left after the "low" pops up. After a "period of use" (as
> determined by the software) you'll get a "no ink warning". But in
> reality there is still plenty left in the sponge. This is the safety
> reserve ink to prevent damage to the head. Canon's ink/cartridge
> delivery system was intentionally kept simple."
>
> Now Tom says he got this information directly from a Canon tech. Who do I
> believe now?
>
>>>>>>As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and
>>>>>>place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will
>>>>>>(of course) result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the
>>>>>>printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
>>>>>>completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
>>>>>>initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because
>>>>>>the light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the
>>>>>>prism, so it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace
>>>>>>the empty. There are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.
>>>>>
>>>>>I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and
>>>>>it wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the
>>>>>center position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability
>>>>>to know what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover
>>>>it assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels
>>>>when the cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would
>>>>have picked up on this by now.
>>>
>>>Now why would I go and replace an empty cart with a completely empty
>>>cart? The printer checks ink levels continuously not just when the cover
>>>is opened and closed.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wrong, it does not check continuosly.
>> It performs ink level checks at various points of a print job, power on
>> cycles and when the lid is opened to center the carriage and then closed
>> again.
>
> Here goes Captain Anal again.
>
>>>>>>And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
>>>>>>operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is
>>>>>>to do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some
>>>>>>ink. Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in
>>>>>>fact result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated,
>>>>>>why on earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to
>>>>>>inspect the level????
>>>>>
>>>>>It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt
>>>>>a cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until
>>>>>the low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a
>>>>small amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is
>>>>incorrect.
>>>
>>>Funny but you are the one that brought up the ink usage. Why bring it up
>>>if it is negligible? Most of your posts here haven't impressed me
>>>regarding their content, relevance or your knowledge level. As for me
>>>being incorrect, if so, I guess I'm in good company. You might want to
>>>brush up on the MP780's design. ;) 
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> The ink was brought up 'again' as you stated it did not use any when the
>> lid was opened and closed.
>> I did not want the unsuspecting newbie to take you inaccurate info as
>> fact.
>> I am hardly here to impress you, though it would be helpful if someone
>> educated you a bit. As for me, I am quite familiar with the MP780 and
>> many other printers design and operation.
>
> I can see you're REAL familiar with the MP780. As for you not being here
> to impress me, don't worry, you haven't.

DO EVERYONE A FAVOUR AND BUY AN EPSON!!!
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 9:43:51 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Bob Headrick" <bobh@proaxis.com> wrote in message
news:1115o9uov2of50e@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.com> wrote in message
> news:LumdnU3p3IRK6YzfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>
>> Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
>> different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
>> the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
>> installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
>> cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
>> dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
>> to determin ink levels.
>
> It actually does both. If you look at the cartridge you will see a foam
> area and a free ink area. The prism monitors the ink in the free ink
> area. When this area gets empty the foam still will have ink. It is this
> ink that is then drop-counted. At least that is what I would do if I had
> their system....
>
> - Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP
>

Ohhh...now you've gone and done it! :0)
!