Asking Tom's Gurus For Support

[TONY_M07]

I have been a long time reader, but first time poster

My problem is that I have been wanting to buy a new CPU for a while, was set on one, and then all the recent posts in here and other forums have now pulled me to another possible choice.

I have read numerous posts of single vs dual core, and will not ask the benefits and problems with each as that is a tired topic.

My question is more specific to my needs. I am a gamer, however I am a student and not rich

I currently have a Athlon XP 2400+ (tbred core) lightly overclocked to 300mhz FSB for about 2250 mhz. I have 1 Gb Kingston value pc 3200 (512 mb x2 dual) and a BFG 6600GT AGP (currently RMA'd due to temp problems.)

Originally I had my eye set on a 939 3700+ with 1mb L2 Cache, but the recent overclocking results of the Op 165 have pulled my eyes in a different direction. I know that in both cases I will most likely be GPU limited in the same way, but getting results close to a FX 60 are very tempting.

However given the price, $255 can for the 3700+ and the $400 for the 165, and the fact that I will not be buying new ram, should i just stick to the 3700+? I know there are ram dividers, but with an Asrock dual and cheap ram will overlocking even be worth the money/ risk of getting a bad revision.

I say again, I am aiming for a cheap upgrade. I game, I do encode dvds, but I don't have the money right now, or anytime soon for a new GPU to replace my 6600GT, will not replace my Ram, and do not care about AM2, or Conroe since both require changes of Ram and GPU which as i said before is not an option for me.

Thanks in advance for all your opinions.
TONY M

 

[k2000k]

How long can you wait? If it is until the summer/fall then the intro of Conroe may cause AMD to mark down their processors thereby putting the Opteron closer to your price range. I myself would go for the dual core, and you know all the benefits of it. Given that you have $255 maybe you could find a way to scrounge some money for the x2 3800? I've seen them selling for 295. But it all really comes down to when do you want to get it? If now, then go for the 3700, I would save a little for x2 3800 as a compromise.

 

[hergieburbur]

IF you shop around, you ought to be able to get anb OPty 165 for cheaper than $400. I got mine for around $325 A few weeks ago.

Sorry, I menat $00 not $4000 obviously

 

[RichPLS]

FYI,,, I got my Opteron 175 at NewEgg in December and shipped it was $465...
Since then the price has gone upwards... and I am in the market again... but am waiting now for either Conroe or drastic price cuts on AMD's chips...

 

[SidVicious]

As k2000k pointed out, the X2 3800+ stands in the middleground as the entry-level dual core and is likely to overclock like a champ, especially if you get a '06 Manchester. If you want to be 100% sure that you'll get a good core, shop locally and read the OPN.

I'll highlight the datecode in red and the stepping in green :

ADA2800DAA5BV
LDBHE 0543RPCW
Z83235AJ50477

The datecode is straightfoward, first two digits indicate the year, the 3rd and 4th indicate the week.

BV indicate an E4 stepping, that's a Manchester core. CD would indicate an E6 stepping, that's a downbinned Toledo core with half the cache disabled.

The Asrock 939Dual-SATA2 is a wise choice as it gives you a lot of options for future upgrades, it may not be the number one overclocker but it sells for less than half the price of an high end 939 motherboard.

 

[jap0nes]

and you know all the benefits of it

but the benefits are mainly on multitasking and dvd/audio enconding, which he is not gonna do. for gaming, there are no real benefits going dual core... yet
but as you said, that's your opinion

for gaming on a budget it's better go cheap and single core

 

[TONY_M07]

First I would like to thank all of your for your prompt and educated replies

As for waiting, I could wait until early summer, but pretty much only mid June because by that time i have to start saving for next years tutition and can't with a clear conscience buy new parts But i was unsure about waiting anyway because 1) the recent increase to AMD prices, and 2) please don't flame I have had a love affair with AMD since my fisrt t-brid, but *Current* AM2 benchies don't seem to far ahead of previous generations, and as others have pointed out it is a platform change not a architecture change so I was unsure if it would affect prices of 939 CPU's that much, At least innitially and I am impatient

In regards to the 3800+, the cheapest I can get locally is $359 can, which brings it too temptingly close to the 165

The AsRock did seem good, It allows me to keep my AGP, yet leaves the door open for PCI-E later, there is no SLI, but i can't afford it anyways and it is supposed to be a mid level overclocker, which is good since so am I

Thanks again for you help, especially the revisions, If i am able to scrounge for the 3800+ I will be sure to keep them in mind, actually on paper, now then how do i explain wanting a good revision...but not wanting to overclock since they will not honour my warrenty if thigns gowrong

 

[SidVicious]

and you know all the benefits of it

but the benefits are mainly on multitasking and dvd/audio enconding, which he is not gonna do. for gaming, there are no real benefits going dual core... yet
but as you said, that's your opinion

for gaming on a budget it's better go cheap and single core

Case in point, you can overclock a dual core CPU to match or exceed the clockspeed of a single core CPU.

Unfortunately, you can't add a second core to a single core CPU.

The price difference between the 3700+ and the X2 3800+ is too small for one to claim that the 3700+ is that much of a better deal.

 

[jap0nes]

well, you can pretty much overclock to whatever speed you like...

what if i dont want to overclock?

EDIT: by the way, i checked on newegg, there's a $60 difference between a X2 3800 and a single core 3700... i dont think this is a "small" difference...

 

[SidVicious]

well, you can pretty much overclock to whatever speed you like...

Not quite, hardware has its limits and you can't go against the laws of physics.

what if i dont want to overclock?

With all due respect, I don't think that your personnal preferences really matter in this situation as my recommendations are adressed to Tony, who already is familliar with overclocking.

by the way, i checked on newegg, there's a $60 difference between a X2 3800 and a single core 3700... i dont think this is a "small" difference...

Not when you consider that Toni's second choice was the more expensive Opteron 165. As I stated before, the X2 3800+ stands in the middleground between the two.

 

[TONY_M07]

For me the X2 3800+ is about $100 can more than the 3700+, which is significant, but then I'm pretty sure that the stock cooler on a 3700+ is sub par and will require me to buy a new one, which is about 30-50 dollars depending on what i get to enable me to overclock at all.

This puts me in a situation to spend about 50 bucks plus tax and get a second core, yet smaller cache.

I think im am thoroughly convinced that an opt is out of my league. It is very expensive, and since i only buy/ can afford mid range cards im sure I will never experience its full potential. Also I have been reading that unless you get the 165 from the OEMs, you will get the 5xxx stepping chips instead of the 608 or 610 which are the ones hitting 2.7-2.9 on close to stock voltages. So I run the risk of spending more, getting a poor revision, ram holding back a high overclock, and never really using all the power, which is in fact a crime.

Now the battle of x2 3800 + and 3700+ begins, which will all depend on how much money I have at time of purchase. Thanks again guys.

 

[Qwertyleo]

First I would like to thank all of your for your prompt and educated replies

As for waiting, I could wait until early summer, but pretty much only mid June because by that time i have to start saving for next years tutition and can't with a clear conscience buy new parts But i was unsure about waiting anyway because 1) the recent increase to AMD prices, and 2) please don't flame I have had a love affair with AMD since my fisrt t-brid, but *Current* AM2 benchies don't seem to far ahead of previous generations, and as others have pointed out it is a platform change not a architecture change so I was unsure if it would affect prices of 939 CPU's that much, At least innitially and I am impatient

In regards to the 3800+, the cheapest I can get locally is $359 can, which brings it too temptingly close to the 165

The AsRock did seem good, It allows me to keep my AGP, yet leaves the door open for PCI-E later, there is no SLI, but i can't afford it anyways and it is supposed to be a mid level overclocker, which is good since so am I

Thanks again for you help, especially the revisions, If i am able to scrounge for the 3800+ I will be sure to keep them in mind, actually on paper, now then how do i explain wanting a good revision...but not wanting to overclock since they will not honour my warrenty if thigns gowrong

you can actulay geta riser card to enable sli on the dual sata I ahve the mobo , and run 6 displays to boot

 

[sojrner]

I would say get the x2 3800. I have seen it oc'd very high, even when purchased from newegg. (ie: not checking numbers locally for best rev.) The stock cooler is not bad either. My 4200 was actually shipped w/ the wrong cooler (waiting on amd to ship the right one to me) and I got the stock cooler from the single cores. It is identical to the cooler on my brother's socket 754 3000+!! Yet it cools just fine even w/ a 200Mhz oc. I of course will be happier w/ the heatpipe version but just saying that just about any cooler works well for these x2's and it is quiet and performs.

oh, and it is my understanding that based on your first post that you WILL be doing some dvd encoding and other video related stuff. W/ that in mind the dual core will benefit you much more on those actions initially than gaming. As more games come out w/ dual core implementation you will only see more imporvements. Single core guys won't see a thing different as time goes on, and that is a bad thing.

 

[Anoobis]

I've heard the Opty 146 is a nice overclocker too. And not much more than the Athlon 3700.

 

[hergieburbur]

FYI,,, I got my Opteron 175 at NewEgg in December and shipped it was $465...
Since then the price has gone upwards... and I am in the market again... but am waiting now for either Conroe or drastic price cuts on AMD's chips...

Zipzoomfly, $328.50 for an opteron 165 when I bought it in march. Not sure what it is now.

To the OP, if you aren't going to be getting a high mid-range or better vid card, I wouldn't go for the higher CPU, as you will be limited by your vid-card anyway.

 

[TONY_M07]

Thanks sojrner, that is a good point about future games and the fact that my an x2 3800 may become better with age. And yes i do encode DVD's, but not often, which could be due more to how long it takes now

Thats good to hear about the cooler too, but yeah i would feel better with the heatpipe version.

I looked into the 146 as well, well actually the 144 since it is the same price as the 3700 +,. However it is a 940 chip, which would require ecc ram, and the mobo alone would cost more than if i had just gotten the 165

*EDIT* sorry I just looked the 146 up and it is 939 i was wrong, however it is not available for some reason at my local shop.

As for pricing, I generally don't shop online, because I am in Canada, most U.S stores don't ship here and if they do, the cost of shipping, and boarder GST easily surpases any money i save from shopping locally. There are also very good shops within driving distance that offer great prices, and i buy all my stuff there. for instance tiger direct.ca sells the opt 165 for over $50 dollars more than Canadacomputers.com, and i could hand pick the proc.

By the way thanks for the link to NCIX, the prices seem good and its Canada based, if i build up the balls to shop online, this would be a good start

 

[SidVicious]

For me the X2 3800+ is about $100 can more than the 3700+, which is significant, but then I'm pretty sure that the stock cooler on a 3700+ is sub par and will require me to buy a new one, which is about 30-50 dollars depending on what i get to enable me to overclock at all.

This puts me in a situation to spend about 50 bucks plus tax and get a second core, yet smaller cache.

I think im am thoroughly convinced that an opt is out of my league. It is very expensive, and since i only buy/ can afford mid range cards im sure I will never experience its full potential. Also I have been reading that unless you get the 165 from the OEMs, you will get the 5xxx stepping chips instead of the 608 or 610 which are the ones hitting 2.7-2.9 on close to stock voltages. So I run the risk of spending more, getting a poor revision, ram holding back a high overclock, and never really using all the power, which is in fact a crime.

Now the battle of x2 3800 + and 3700+ begins, which will all depend on how much money I have at time of purchase. Thanks again guys.

Ordering online is a shot in the dark as far as getting a particular stepping goes and you also need to factor in the shipping & handling fee which will drive the price up.

Don't expect much from the X2 3800+ stock heatsink, it is a crude extruded aluminium design, I don't know whether or not the 3700+ stock heatsink share the same flaws.

Opterons can be hard to find, my initial idea was to go for an Optie 165 and could'nt find any retailer, I had to settle with my current X2 3800+.

I just read that you were quoting Canadian prices while most posters (including myself) were talking about US prices, sorry for the confusion !

 

[Anoobis]

By the way thanks for the link to NCIX, the prices seem good and its Canada based, if i build up the balls to shop online, this would be a good start

I don't particularly care for the site's layout, but apparently a few other forum rez say it is a decent company to do business with. Another option would be TigerDirect like you mentioned, but I cringe on recommending anybody do business with them.

 

[TONY_M07]

Hey no problem Sid, still very good information.

That NCIX site gave me more evil thoughts since they actually carried Socket A cpu's which are nowhere to be found at local shops now. For $135 can, they have a 2600+M, which is apparently a good overclocker and I probably wouldn;t even have to reformat my system or change a thing. It was tempting for an hour, but then i decided that if it ends up being a poor overclocker, then i spent 135 bucks plus shipping on a 2600+ to replace my 2400+ probably overclocked to or close to its speed. So that was vetoed

 

[SidVicious]

Hey no problem Sid, still very good information.

That NCIX site gave me more evil thoughts since they actually carried Socket A cpu's which are nowhere to be found at local shops now. For $135 can, they have a 2600+M, which is apparently a good overclocker and I probably wouldn;t even have to reformat my system or change a thing. It was tempting for an hour, but then i decided that if it ends up being a poor overclocker, then i spent 135 bucks plus shipping on a 2600+ to replace my 2400+ probably overclocked to or close to its speed. So that was vetoed

I went from a Mobile Barton 2500+ which was overclocked to 2.6GHz on water to my current 'rig, the difference in performance is impressive to say the least.

EvE-Online introduced multithreaded optimisations right after I upgraded and the list of games following the same path keep growing. Furthermore, I more than doubled my point output in Folding@Home and multitasking even under an heavy load have never been that snappy.

Looking back, I'm glad I went for a dual core CPU

 

[nannerla]

First I would like to thank all of your for your prompt and educated replies

As for waiting, I could wait until early summer, but pretty much only mid June because by that time i have to start saving for next years tutition and can't with a clear conscience buy new parts But i was unsure about waiting anyway because 1) the recent increase to AMD prices, and 2) please don't flame I have had a love affair with AMD since my fisrt t-brid, but *Current* AM2 benchies don't seem to far ahead of previous generations, and as others have pointed out it is a platform change not a architecture change so I was unsure if it would affect prices of 939 CPU's that much, At least innitially and I am impatient

In regards to the 3800+, the cheapest I can get locally is $359 can, which brings it too temptingly close to the 165

The AsRock did seem good, It allows me to keep my AGP, yet leaves the door open for PCI-E later, there is no SLI, but i can't afford it anyways and it is supposed to be a mid level overclocker, which is good since so am I

Thanks again for you help, especially the revisions, If i am able to scrounge for the 3800+ I will be sure to keep them in mind, actually on paper, now then how do i explain wanting a good revision...but not wanting to overclock since they will not honour my warrenty if thigns gowrong

you can actulay geta riser card to enable sli on the dual sata I ahve the mobo , and run 6 displays to boot


Where did you get this riser card cuz i got that mobo and well was thinking about mabe the end of this year buying a new mobo with sli.