Help Upgrading, Whats best for me?

[kilogic]

This is my first post, but I visit Tom's often, mostly browsing the articles.

I have a computer that has evolved over the years and is in decent shape, but now i am torn as to what to upgrade next.

here's my specs:
P4 2.4Ghz 533Mhz FSB Socket 478
Intel D865PERL Mobo (support for p4 w/ ht 800fsb, agp8x, and 400mhz ddr)
Kingston ValuRAM 2x512mb sticks in dual channel (1gb) pc2100
BFG 6800GT agp
Creative Sound Blaster Live (old card not so great)
SATA 250 WD
430 Watt PSU

When I look at it I see that my processor is getting kinda old and my ram is pretty slow. Also my sound card is nothing special but im not sure how much a nice sound card helps performance. I am curious to see if my processor or ram is the bigger bottleneck?

I would really like to keep my motherboard. I fryed my last one by putting the ram in upside down (dont laugh!) and I just got this one in october because my last Intel was extremely stable and so is this and it fits all my specs with a little room to grow.

Is it worth the $250 to get a P4 3.2Ghz HT 800FSB?

Is it worth it to get $100 1Gb (2x512) HyperX 400Mhz?

I would rather not get a new mobo cause I dont have the money to upgrade all 3 items (cpu,mobo,ram) right now. Is getting just the processor going to give me the performance boost I want?

Thank you in advance for any reply.

 

[PCGeek1]

It depends on what you want to do future-wise. If you plan on playing many of the new 3D games and multi-tasking.

I'm all for upgrading, but then there's the slogan "your machine is as fast as your slowest component". Any processor 3.0Ghz or highest is best. Your RAM speed, even after adding the GB will speed up some, but because the Mhz speed is a lot slower than todays DDR's & DDR2's, I'm not too sure if you'll notice a difference between having only 512 & 1GB.

Some next-gen graphic cards are made for AGP's platforms, such as the GF7800CS (or GS) and I believe ATI has the X1900 for AGP's as well, but since you already have a GF6800GT, I wouldn't change that, because you won't notice a huge difference in speed between the 6800 and 7800 cards.

So yes, spending a little over $350 for upgrading is worth it, but like I said, it depends on what you to do future-wise.

 

[SidVicious]

This is my first post, but I visit Tom's often, mostly browsing the articles.

I have a computer that has evolved over the years and is in decent shape, but now i am torn as to what to upgrade next.

here's my specs:
P4 2.4Ghz 533Mhz FSB Socket 478
Intel D865PERL Mobo (support for p4 w/ ht 800fsb, agp8x, and 400mhz ddr)
Kingston ValuRAM 2x512mb sticks in dual channel (1gb) pc2100
BFG 6800GT agp
Creative Sound Blaster Live (old card not so great)
SATA 250 WD
430 Watt PSU

When I look at it I see that my processor is getting kinda old and my ram is pretty slow. Also my sound card is nothing special but im not sure how much a nice sound card helps performance. I am curious to see if my processor or ram is the bigger bottleneck?

I would really like to keep my motherboard. I fryed my last one by putting the ram in upside down (dont laugh!) and I just got this one in october because my last Intel was extremely stable and so is this and it fits all my specs with a little room to grow.

Is it worth the $250 to get a P4 3.2Ghz HT 800FSB?

Is it worth it to get $100 1Gb (2x512) HyperX 400Mhz?

I would rather not get a new mobo cause I dont have the money to upgrade all 3 items (cpu,mobo,ram) right now. Is getting just the processor going to give me the performance boost I want?

Thank you in advance for any reply.

Consider that this 350$ upgrade would give you a noticeable improvement but also means that you reached the end of the road for your system.

How about spending that money toward a platform that you can upgrade as you get more money down the road ?

Asrock 939Dual-SATA2 67$
A64 3200+ 157$

Would be cheaper than getting that 3.2GHz P4, you'll have the option of switching to a PCI-E GPU AND an upgrade path toward Socket AM2 by using a riser card.

Great deal for 224$ IMHO

You can even migrate your current memory to cut down on cost (the lack of bandwidth would hurt performance) or get a matched pair of 512MB PC-3200 modules.

 

[smedlin]

Increasing the ram can go a long way to improving a system.

 

[SidVicious]

Increasing the ram can go a long way to improving a system.

It would'nt do him any good, his current CPU runs on a 133MHz FSB (quad pumped to 533MHz) so unless he overclock, the memory bandwidth from anything better than PC-2100 would just go to waste.

Likewise, adding more memory to his current system is trivial, even if the mismatched memory modules do get along, having 2GB of RAM won't help, his current 2.4GHz CPU is the bottleneck.

 

[samir_nayanajaad]

ok if the system can do what you need it to do right now keep it as is.

I say save your money, wait a few months for the new intel and amd stuff to come out and figure out whose on top, so another month or 2 after they are avalaible. then buy a whole new system and parts out your old one however, like reuse case, psu, whatever you can reuse to save money.

The big reason I say this is because a new os is also on the horizon and it can open up a whole new path of upgrades to you also.

 

[SidVicious]

The big reason I say this is because a new os is also on the horizon and it can open up a whole new path of upgrades to you also.

Which is the very reason why I suggested a motherboard with such an upgrade path !

That way, he can enjoy a better system now for a relatively low price AND have the option of doing a simple upgrade by using the Socket AM2 riser card.

 

[smedlin]

a simple upgrade by using the Socket AM2 riser card.

What exactly is that? The riser card...

 

[Anoobis]

Sid's on the right track, if the OP WANTS to upgrade NOW. The only thing I would change is the processor. At $170.00 the Opty 144 is a nice deal for such an overclockable CPU. He should be able to see a nice OC even with stock cooling and you get the warm and fuzzy of a 1 MB L2 cache. All for only $13.00 more.

 

[SidVicious]

a simple upgrade by using the Socket AM2 riser card.

What exactly is that? The riser card...

As you can see, it is a special expension card with an AM2 socket and 4 DDR2 slot along with voltage regulation circuits.

You simply plug the riser into the 939Dual-SATA2 special expension slot.

Anoobis, thanks for pointing out the single core Optie, I completely forgot about those !

The 13$ difference is very tempting, do you know if that price includes the heatsink ?

 

[kilogic]

Thank you all for your quick response and helpful answers. I am sure now the cpu should be my focus. And that was interesting that i wouldn't notice any difference in speed on 400mhz ddr. Is that true? I gues the 533fsb doesnt carry on to ram?

Anyway I looked into the mobo thing (i know its probably my better option, i guess im just in denial about throwing out a very recent purchase). I have never heard of ASRock. I would feel more comfortable switching to AMD on an ASUS or MSI or something I'm a little more familiar with. But nobody else seems to have an agp & pci-e option. It's not much less than my 3.2 P4 option and I dont think im going to pci-e anytime soon, but I like that option!

The reason I use Intel is because my cousin had alot of heat issues with his athlon 2500+ and now he is doing alright with a 64 bit 3000+. It took him a few motherboards a heatsink and a some case fans before he upgraded the cpu and now he is stable. Are the 64-bits not as bad on heat? what about the dual cores? My 2.4 runs 35C idle and 45C max on load with stock fan only oc'ed to 2.5ghz (the limit on my intel board).

Would it be better for me to get that processor (A64 3200) on a nice asus board with agp or just stick to my board with a 3.2 p4? they will both have the same limit of vid card and ram but the processor can be upgraded to dual core and have higher fsb.

an upgrade path toward Socket AM2 by using a riser card.

Also I'm not sure what this means. It says that card is compatible with Athlon X2 so whats this riser card? is it wierd to install?

 

[Anoobis]

The 13$ difference is very tempting, do you know if that price includes the heatsink ?

According to Newegg it does. I've heard the Opty's are shipping with decent heatpipe setups these days. Be nice if it did, I just ordered the 144 and I'm curious to see how it OC with the stock HSF before I buy aftermarket (the Scythe Ninja 1000P will dishonor heat!!)

 

[kilogic]

i dont know about that expansion card it seems like a sweet idea since i get dual core and ddr2 while enjoying regular stuff now, but how does everything fit heatsink and that and how much is the card.

I dont mind if the cpu doesnt come with a heatsink so long as the mobo has nice oc options. Im thinking of getting the VapoChill Micro.

 

[Anoobis]

ASrock is ASUS, only their "value" brand but don't let it fool you. The Dual board has gotten excellent reviews. It is also the ONLY true AGP/PCI-E compatible board for S939. Do not consider ANY others if you go this route.

The A64s run much cooler than most of their Intel counterparts for the time being.

Depending on which Asus board you're looking at, the ASrock will be just as good, if not better.

The riser card is used to support DDR2 memory and the upcoming socket 940 AM2 processors from AMD. There's a slot on the board the riser card drops into.

 

[kilogic]

will i be able to fit something like the micro or just a nice heatsink on the card? it seems too different. Also is it practical to have inside of a case? And if it costs 50-100 for the expansion i might as well get a dual core board right? i cant seem to find it on the net so sorry for asking price.

 

[samir_nayanajaad]

The only reason that I dont like the riser card idea is

1) most likely bc your going through an expansion slot it will be a bottleneck. the current htt speed is 1ghz, what is that riser card slot gonna have? most likely less but I dont know 100%. Correct me if Im wrong on that but it makes seems to be a logical assumption and if it is true I would rather not have that bottleneck in the future I already have a 200mhz htt bus speed cpu.

2) although I do prefer AMD over Intel, if the intel is better than the amd I will get the intel. This riser card sticks you with amd as your future upgrade no matter what. I dont like to limmit my choices whenever possible

I dont want to start a flame fest over that last one, so please dont take it as a way to start one, just stating the possibility that intel may beat amd.

As for the riser card, It is a good viable upgrade path if you have to have a better pc now, thats why I said if the pc you have now is good for what you do just wait. If you do need more umph now a riser card is a good choice.

 

[SidVicious]

Thank you all for your quick response and helpful answers.

You're welcome !

I am sure now the cpu should be my focus. And that was interesting that i wouldn't notice any difference in speed on 400mhz ddr. Is that true? I gues the 533fsb doesnt carry on to ram?

To clear any misunderstanding about memory and FSB clockspeed VS effective operating frequency, PC-3200, which is also known as 400DDR (Dual Data Rate, transfers data on the rising and falling edges of the clockwave) operate on a 200MHz clock, likewise, PC-2100, AKA 266DDR operate on a 133MHz clock. Same goes for the P4 FSB which is quad pumped (four transfers per clockwave). Therefore a 533 FSB P4 matches the bandwidth of dual channel PC-2100 and a 800 FSB P4 goes along with dual channel PC-3200.

That's why I mentionned that the bandwidth dual channel PC-3200 provides would be lost onto a 533 FSB CPU, unless you overclock it. Most motherboards will allow the memory and CPU to run asynchronously but various overheads and increased latencies somewhat mitigate the gains.

Anyway I looked into the mobo thing (i know its probably my better option, i guess im just in denial about throwing out a very recent purchase). I have never heard of ASRock. I would feel more comfortable switching to AMD on an ASUS or MSI or something I'm a little more familiar with. But nobody else seems to have an agp & pci-e option. It's not much less than my 3.2 P4 option and I dont think im going to pci-e anytime soon, but I like that option!

Asrock is Asus "budget" line, the reliability of this platform is more than adequate.

The reason I use Intel is because my cousin had alot of heat issues with his athlon 2500+ and now he is doing alright with a 64 bit 3000+. It took him a few motherboards a heatsink and a some case fans before he upgraded the cpu and now he is stable. Are the 64-bits not as bad on heat? what about the dual cores? My 2.4 runs 35C idle and 45C max on load with stock fan only oc'ed to 2.5ghz (the limit on my intel board).

A64 CPUs, including dual cores, run colder than comparable P4s.

Would it be better for me to get that processor (A64 3200) on a nice asus board with agp or just stick to my board with a 3.2 p4? they will both have the same limit of vid card and ram but the processor can be upgraded to dual core and have higher fsb.

Also I'm not sure what this means. It says that card is compatible with Athlon X2 so whats this riser card? is it wierd to install?

As I explained above, the Asrock 939Dual-SATA2 is as reliable as any Asus board would be since it is manufactured and designed by the same company.

This motherboard is a full fledged Socket 939 platform, it will support all S939 CPUs including the latest dual core CPUs such as the FX-60 and Opteron 180.

The riser card is installed just like any other card, it will allow you to upgrade to a Socket AM2 CPU (AMD's next socket, due to be relased late spring) and DDR2 memory.

 

[Anoobis]

Unfortunately, I don't believe the riser has been released yet for public purchase. AM2 hasn't been released yet and I doubt they'd be selling the riser until after it has been released.

So I cannot answer your questions regarding what heatsinks will fit and what it will cost.

However,

And if it costs 50-100 for the expansion i might as well get a dual core board right?

, since the Asrock board mentioned is a socket 939, it will also support any S939 processor, including the dual cores.

 

[kilogic]

Oh so i wouldn't need the expansion unless i wanted that specific processor type? all the current dual core amds are supported? That sounds sweet so i could keep this board right now with only upgrading my cpu, then get dual core when im ready and ddr2 when im ready? That sounds pretty good.

To clear any misunderstanding about memory and FSB clockspeed VS effective operating frequency, PC-3200, which is also known as 400DDR (Dual Data Rate, transfers data on the rising and falling edges of the clockwave) operate on a 200MHz clock, likewise, PC-2100, AKA 266DDR operate on a 133MHz clock. Same goes for the P4 FSB which is quad pumped (four transfers per clockwave). Therefore a 533 FSB P4 matches the bandwidth of dual channel PC-2100 and a 800 FSB P4 goes along with dual channel PC-3200.

So a general rule would be to half the cpu fsb and thats what ram would work optimally with it? And if I get the athlon 64 3200+ with 1000Mhz fsb I could keep that processor and upgrade to ddr2 500Mhz correct?

Does anyone know if I could use the expansion card only for ddr2 and keep my cpu?

Edit: Or maybe not:

A high-bandwidth, low-latency integrated DDR memory controller
Supports PC3200, PC2700, PC2100 or PC1600 DDR SDRAM
Unbuffered DIMMs
72-bit DDR SDRAM memory (64-bit interface + 8-bit ECC)
Up to 6.4 GB/s memory bandwidth
ECC protection enables increased system reliability

HyperTransport™ technology for high speed I/O communication

One 16-bit link up to 2000MHz
Up to 8 GB/s HyperTransport™ I/O bandwidth
Up to 14.4 GB/s total delivered processor-to-system bandwidth
Large high performance on-chip cache
64KB Level 1 instruction cache
64KB Level 1 data cache
Up to 1MB Level 2 cache

AMD Athlon™ 64 Details

Processor: AMD Athlon™ 64
Model: 3200+
P/N (PIB): ADA3200BPBOX
Stepping: E3
Frequency: 2000Mhz
HT Speed: 2000
Voltage: Variable
Max Temp: 65°C
Thermal Power: 67W
L1 Cache: 128KB
L2 Cache: 512KB
CMOS Technology: 90nm SOI
Socket: Socket 939

I dont exactly know what the fsb is on it cause its like smoke and mirrors with the hyper-transport (whatever that is). And it list pc 3200 as the highest it'll allow.

 

[SidVicious]

The only reason that I dont like the riser card idea is

1) most likely bc your going through an expansion slot it will be a bottleneck. the current htt speed is 1ghz, what is that riser card slot gonna have? most likely less but I dont know 100%. Correct me if Im wrong on that but it makes seems to be a logical assumption and if it is true I would rather not have that bottleneck in the future I already have a 200mhz htt bus speed cpu.

Since the DDR2 memory is sitting right next to the AM2 CPU (both are on the riser PCB), the CPU will have direct and unrestricted access to the memory, just like it would if it was on a motherboad. Additionally, risers and secondary PCB are quite a common sight in high end server hardware and don't cause any bottleneck. Considering how ULI managed to design a chipset that offers full fledged AGP and PCI-Express support, I thrust that they found a way to implement a bottleneckless interface to link the riser to the rest of the motherboard.

2) although I do prefer AMD over Intel, if the intel is better than the amd I will get the intel. This riser card sticks you with amd as your future upgrade no matter what. I dont like to limmit my choices whenever possible

The flaw in your argument is that he will have to ditch his current (or upgraded) system anyway in order to get a Conroe platform.

For the sake of simplicity, we will assume that he proceed with an upgrade (of course, he could keep is current computer unchanged and play the waiting game):

The Asrock mobo and A64 3200+ cost 224$, the 3.2GHz S478 P4 is within the same range at 250$, even if you add 100$ for 2x512MB of PC-3200, the price tag ends up being resoneable 350$ which provide a decent mid-range system.

4 months down the road, suppose that Conroe WTFPWN anything AMD has to offer, if Tony do decide to go for a Conroe, he'll have to build himself a brand new computer regardless of which option he chose.

The only difference is that the Asrock mobo offers an upgrade path to AM2+DDR2 and PCI-E.

I dont want to start a flame fest over that last one, so please dont take it as a way to start one, just stating the possibility that intel may beat amd.

As you can see, I'm not in a flamethrowing mood and I don't intend to get involved in a Conroe flamewar.

 

[samir_nayanajaad]

I dont think Im getting across what Im trying to say.

Ok problem one of a bottleneck is out of the way, I had no idea if it would be one or not just thought it might slow down rate between say your cpu/ram and your vid card maybe, but anyway.

as for my second problem you compleatly agreed with me (as I read what you wrote anyway). If he goes with a s939 now and say a 3800 he is good to go for a while, then if he wants the AM2 he can go w/ the riser card.

that makes sence and is a good Idea, but your betting that the AM2 platform will be better than the conroe, which it very well could be and I hope will be.

what Im trying to say is why bet on what cpu will be better? just wait a few months and know for certiain what one is better then spend your money.

I guess I like to play the waiting game (as you put it) thats all. the way I see it is his current rig isnt worth upgradeing any more so he needs a whole new rig entirely. And if I were in his shoes I would wait it out just so I could buy exactly what I want. His current rig sounds like it could hold out for a while longer. But that entirely depends on what he needs that pc for. If he just needs a internet and email pc its fine but if he wants to crank out 60 fps in Oblivion he needs to upgrade now to what you suggested or better.

what you use a pc for compleatly determains what you need in it, so maybe I just need to know what kilogic uses his pc for mostly.

 

[sojrner]

If you want to wait that is fine, but if you dont then sid's asrock option is better as he could go w/ am2 if it is the way to go... if he gets any p4 mobo right now I would bet various parts of my anatomy that NO p4 board will support conroe... that is just based on intel's past track record with current boards supporting new stuff. They just simply have never done it.

Thinking that way, and if you are going to upgrade now... the asrock is the better option.

that is not based on intel vs amd... just which one has more options. If conroe comes out better (which it may) then regardless of which way he goes here he would need a new platform.

JMO

 

[SidVicious]

Oh so i wouldn't need the expansion unless i wanted that specific processor type? all the current dual core amds are supported? That sounds sweet so i could keep this board right now with only upgrading my cpu, then get dual core when im ready and ddr2 when im ready? That sounds pretty good.

The only limitation is that you have to upgrade to AM2 and DDR2 at the same time, of course, such an upgrade will require the AM2 riser card.

According to some 939Dual-SATA2 reviews, the riser itself should be relatively cheap (30'ish ?) and released along with Socket AM2 CPUs.

So a general rule would be to half the cpu fsb and thats what ram would work optimally with it? And if I get the athlon 64 3200+ with 1000Mhz fsb I could keep that processor and upgrade to ddr2 500Mhz correct?

As I explained above, it is impossible to use DDR2 memory with a Socket 939 CPU. I'll clear a few things up about HyperTransport.

The HyperTransport bus share some similarities with the traditionnal FSB but works completely differently.

The stock specs for HT in a S939 CPU are based on a 200MHz clock over 5 "lanes" which are sometime described as the HT multiplier, this yield the overall 1GHz spec.

A good way to understand how HT work is with this overclocking example :

Let's say you want to overclock your 3200+ to 2.4GHz, you would have to set the clock to 240MHz along with the stock 10x CPU multiplier.

To maintain stability, you would have to drop the HT multiplier to 4x (so it stays within specs).

If your memory just won't overclock, you can keep it within specs by introducing a ratio between the CPU clock and the memory clock. So in order to keep PC-3200 within specs, you would have to set the memory controller to a 5:6 ratio (166MHz : 200MHz).

In that case, the CPU on die memory controller would run the memory at CPU/12, resulting in 200MHz clock for the memory.

Does anyone know if I could use the expansion card only for ddr2 and keep my cpu?

No, the AM2 CPU will only use the DDR2 memory sitting right next to it on the riser, likewise, a S939 CPU sitting on the motherboard will not use the DDR2 found on the riser. Furthermore, you can't run both CPUs at the same time.

 

[SidVicious]

I dont think Im getting across what Im trying to say.

Ok problem one of a bottleneck is out of the way, I had no idea if it would be one or not just thought it might slow down rate between say your cpu/ram and your vid card maybe, but anyway.

as for my second problem you compleatly agreed with me (as I read what you wrote anyway). If he goes with a s939 now and say a 3800 he is good to go for a while, then if he wants the AM2 he can go w/ the riser card.

that makes sence and is a good Idea, but your betting that the AM2 platform will be better than the conroe, which it very well could be and I hope will be.

what Im trying to say is why bet on what cpu will be better? just wait a few months and know for certiain what one is better then spend your money.

I guess I like to play the waiting game (as you put it) thats all. the way I see it is his current rig isnt worth upgradeing any more so he needs a whole new rig entirely. And if I were in his shoes I would wait it out just so I could buy exactly what I want. His current rig sounds like it could hold out for a while longer. But that entirely depends on what he needs that pc for. If he just needs a internet and email pc its fine but if he wants to crank out 60 fps in Oblivion he needs to upgrade now to what you suggested or better.

what you use a pc for compleatly determains what you need in it, so maybe I just need to know what kilogic uses his pc for mostly.

All I wanted to demonstrate in the last reply I adressed to you is that it all boils down to "do spend 350$ now and enjoy your new 'rig while you wait and see" VS "don't spend 350$ now and enjoy your old 'rig while you wait and see".

From my point of view, 350$ is a very reasoneable price to pay, especially if that 2.4GHz P4 is getting in the way of his enjoyement.

 

[kilogic]

i apreciate all of your input, but im really not that interested in am2 or conroe. I dont mean to be offensive or negate your suggestions. I do think its cool that i have an option to upgrade to the next platform, but i dont think that waiting a few months is that big a deal for me.

I am using my pc for gaming. Right now i am playing alot of call of duty 2 and counter strike source. I can run cod2 flawlessly in 1280 4xAA 16xAF in DirectX 7, but get the ever so sweet looking cod2 in directX9 and i get an inconsistent 30fps in 1024 w/o AA or AF.

I would like to run these nice directx9 games in 1280 at a consistent 60fps. If my cpu is a bottleneck and getting a 3.2 range cpu will help me get to this goal then thats what i want. I know eventually I will go for a pci-e ddr2 board but might not make those upgrades for another 2 years or so, who knows.

I like my Intel board because its reliable as hell. Never a crash or hang or anything glitchy just plain stable. However I am realizing now that between a cheaper Athlon 64 3200+ and a P4 3.2 the 3200+ beats it on all tests. And for the price of the P4 3.2 I could have a A64 3800+. I wish I haden't been turned off on AMD because of my cousins Athlon XP experience.

The ASRock seems to be a sweet option, but I'm still shaky because the reviews are mixed (mostly good, but some installation trickyness and a couple bad apples). And I have a nice very new board. I guess I have some time to take in all my options but I'm kinda shaky to max out my board on old technology I wish I had the money to upgrade everything but my stuff Is decent I dont want to just throw it out you know.