Adding trim to helicopters?

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Anyone know how to add cyclic trim controls to helicopters, i.e. the default
Bell 206? (I really just want forward (elevator axis) trim. Assigning a
trim wheel on my throttle doesn't have any effect (works ok in fixed wing
craft) as I guess the underlying model doesn't support trim. I'd just like
to trim out the constant forward pressure on the cyclic for long distance
trips.

Thanks,

Si
 
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I don't think there is any such thing as pitch trim on a helicopter.
(boB?) To get roll trim, see
http://simradar.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?do%3Dpost_view_flat%3Bsb%3Dpost_
latest_reply%3Bso%3DASC%3Bpost%3D214942=View+Flat+Mode

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>I don't think there is any such thing as pitch trim on a helicopter.
> (boB?) To get roll trim, see
> http://simradar.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?do%3Dpost_view_flat%3Bsb%3Dpost_
> latest_reply%3Bso%3DASC%3Bpost%3D214942=View+Flat+Mode


I thought so myself, as an aside to this, I tried to get my cousin into
playing flight sims a while back and suggested IL2 Forgotten Battles ... and
we could hook up on line, his reply was that you had to trim all the time in
that simulation and he found that off-putting, I explained you wouldn't need
to trim in a dogfight, but he seems to think you do?

Having wrote that, watched a documentary recently where a WW2 Hurricane
pilot explained he would use rudder trim when attacking bombers from behind
to slew the aircraft (Lateral axis?) perhaps to disguise his intent, maybe
Dudley can clarify?

Cheers.

Colin
 
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"David Wilson-Okamura" <David Wilson-Okamura@forums.simradar.com> wrote in
message news:1122747877.31074@forums.simradar.com...
> I don't think there is any such thing as pitch trim on a helicopter.

I think many have a Force Trim button on the cyclic stick. Unless I
misunderstand, that's what it does.

Si
 
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"Simon Robbins" <simon@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dcgmt3$cam$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> "David Wilson-Okamura" <David Wilson-Okamura@forums.simradar.com> wrote in
> message news:1122747877.31074@forums.simradar.com...
>> I don't think there is any such thing as pitch trim on a helicopter.
>
> I think many have a Force Trim button on the cyclic stick. Unless I
> misunderstand, that's what it does.
>
> Si
>
>

Negative. Force trim is (or at least was in all the UH-1s and AH-1s I used
to fly back 35+ years ago) merely a means to hold the cyclic in a given
position. You place the cyclic where you wanted it, hit the force trim
button, the cyclic stayed where it was (both in pitch and roll axis). But it
really did not MOVE a trim tab like in a fixed wing aircraft. If you wanted
to adjust the force trim, hit the button to turn it OFF, move the cyclic to
a new position, hit the button again to ON.. To be honest, I always found it
to be a real pain --preferred to fly with it in the OFF position.

I THINK--but really don't remember for sure--that the CH-47A/B models also
have/had something very similar. I do not have that many hours in those
birds.

boB can most likely add some more recent info to what I have provided.

Paul
 
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"Paul Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Z_idnbyNEPHleHbfRVn-qQ@sirinet.net...
>
> Negative. Force trim is (or at least was in all the UH-1s and AH-1s I used
> to fly back 35+ years ago) merely a means to hold the cyclic in a given
> position. You place the cyclic where you wanted it, hit the force trim
> button, the cyclic stayed where it was (both in pitch and roll axis). But
it
> really did not MOVE a trim tab like in a fixed wing aircraft. If you
wanted
> to adjust the force trim, hit the button to turn it OFF, move the cyclic
to
> a new position, hit the button again to ON.. To be honest, I always found
it
> to be a real pain --preferred to fly with it in the OFF position.

Actually, that's pretty much what I'm looking for.

Si
 
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Paul Riley wrote:


>
> Negative. Force trim is (or at least was in all the UH-1s and AH-1s I used
> to fly back 35+ years ago) merely a means to hold the cyclic in a given
> position. You place the cyclic where you wanted it, hit the force trim
> button, the cyclic stayed where it was (both in pitch and roll axis). But it
> really did not MOVE a trim tab like in a fixed wing aircraft. If you wanted
> to adjust the force trim, hit the button to turn it OFF, move the cyclic to
> a new position, hit the button again to ON.. To be honest, I always found it
> to be a real pain --preferred to fly with it in the OFF position.
>
> I THINK--but really don't remember for sure--that the CH-47A/B models also
> have/had something very similar. I do not have that many hours in those
> birds.
>
> boB can most likely add some more recent info to what I have provided.
>
> Paul
>
>

===========================================
That about covers it. I did use the force trim a lot flying across the
country, but then I was pretty bored.
============================================

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Simon Robbins wrote:
> Anyone know how to add cyclic trim controls to helicopters, i.e. the
default
> Bell 206? (I really just want forward (elevator axis) trim. Assigning a
> trim wheel on my throttle doesn't have any effect (works ok in fixed wing
> craft) as I guess the underlying model doesn't support trim. I'd
just like
> to trim out the constant forward pressure on the cyclic for long distance
> trips.
>
> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

================================================
The smaller helicopters have a horizontal stabilizer that is fixed.
It's on the tail boom and in the case of the Bell 206, only helps to
keep the fuselage level in higher speed forward flight.

Getting larger, the UH-60 and Apache have adjustable horizontal
stabilizers but I don't know how they work or even if they are
adjustable from the cockpit, I always flew the older swing wings.
Probably the ones Paul wore out some years before. :)

============================================

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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"boB" <akita_77REMOVECAPS@yahoo.Xcom> wrote in message
news:vCTGe.70739$X76.54708@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> ===========================================
> That about covers it. I did use the force trim a lot flying across the
> country, but then I was pretty bored.
> ============================================

Lucky you. I still remember doing ferry flights from Ft Devens MA to (then)
Camp Drum NY and return in the H-13H. Manual correlation throttle on the
collective (some of the birds had Harley stamped on the throttle grip--true
:)) ), no trim, no nav radios, one UHF and one FM radio. Single pilot. One
fuel stop enroute, at either Albany NY or Schenectady NY airport. Flew
IFRR--I Follow Roads/Railroads-- all the way. They always made sure though
that we went in flights of at least two aircraft.

I think I could still fly that route today without a map. It was NEVER
boring, especially when weather would close in over the Berkshire Mountains.
:)) The only good part was that I was raised in that part of the
country--knew it real well.

Paul
 
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Simon Robbins wrote:


>
>>to adjust the force trim, hit the button to turn it OFF, move the cyclic
>
> to
>
>>a new position, hit the button again to ON.. To be honest, I always found
>
> it
>
>>to be a real pain --preferred to fly with it in the OFF position.
>
>
> Actually, that's pretty much what I'm looking for.
>
> Si
>
>

I don't use my Sidewinder FF any more just because I can't take my hand
from it. Having a workable force trim would be great, just not practicable.

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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I've been trying helicopters again in order to explore some of the
urban scenery in Israel. Practice does help, but the springs on my
joystick (a Saitek ST290 -- nothing fancy) are pretty stiff, and after
ten minutes my hand gets pretty tired of banking right all the time.
Anyway, thought I'd see about trying that rotor trim again, since I'd
found the post already... But I didn't feel like fiddling with the
fs9.cfg. Then I remembered: something has changed since the last time I
did this! Namely, I have a registered version of FSUIPC. Had never used
this to map buttons before, but this really is the way to go.
Especially since it will let you map something for a particular
aircraft! Mapped the buttons that I usually use for elevator trim to
"Rotor trim inc" and "Rotor trim dec." There's also a "Rotor trim set,"
but I haven't figured out how to make it work... Anyway, this makes it
MUCH easier to control roll for long periods of time.

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Simon Robbins wrote:
>
> I think many have a Force Trim button on the cyclic stick. Unless I
> misunderstand, that's what it does.
>
> Si
>
>

I just did some simulated test pilot work and found the arrow keys on
the keyboard will trim the A109 and the HH60 very nicely. I did have a
problem, I held the left arrow too long and did a barrel roll before I
could catch it. Took some screenshots. :)

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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David Wilson-Okamura wrote:
> I've been trying helicopters again in order to explore some of the
> urban scenery in Israel. Practice does help, but the springs on my
> joystick (a Saitek ST290 -- nothing fancy) are pretty stiff, and after
> ten minutes my hand gets pretty tired of banking right all the time.
> Anyway, thought I'd see about trying that rotor trim again, since I'd
> found the post already... But I didn't feel like fiddling with the
> fs9.cfg. Then I remembered: something has changed since the last time I
> did this! Namely, I have a registered version of FSUIPC. Had never used
> this to map buttons before, but this really is the way to go.
> Especially since it will let you map something for a particular
> aircraft! Mapped the buttons that I usually use for elevator trim to
> "Rotor trim inc" and "Rotor trim dec." There's also a "Rotor trim set,"
> but I haven't figured out how to make it work... Anyway, this makes it
> MUCH easier to control roll for long periods of time.
>

David, did you try adjusting the trim with the arrow keys? Only this
evening I learned the arrow keys would affect the trim. I would think
you could use them to adjust your flight neutral position. Or maybe
not. Let us know.

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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___| reply |__________________________________________________________

David, did you try adjusting the trim with the arrow keys? Only this
evening I learned the arrow keys would affect the trim. I would think
you could use them to adjust your flight neutral position. Or maybe
not. Let us know.

_____________________________________________________________________


No luck so far in the default Robinson. Doesn't mean someone else
shouldn't try. Am wondering too if this doesn't have something to do
with ActiveCamera. Are these just the regular ol' arrow keys, or are
they shifted in some way? Sure would be nice to have pitch trim...

One thing I've noticed with the rotor trim: it resets to neutral when
you switch views. I can live with that, though. It is SO much less
tiring to fly now. I'm still struggling with the hover and land, but
all of a sudden helicopters are fun now instead of painful... TrackIR
is helpful too...

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David Wilson-Okamura wrote:

> No luck so far in the default Robinson. Doesn't mean someone else
> shouldn't try. Am wondering too if this doesn't have something to do
> with ActiveCamera. Are these just the regular ol' arrow keys, or are
> they shifted in some way? Sure would be nice to have pitch trim...
>

Yes, the regular arrow keys, only 4 of them together. I tried them in
the HH60 and the A 109 and I would try the R22 but the mangy puppy now
has me slipping back into my downloading self.

> One thing I've noticed with the rotor trim: it resets to neutral when
> you switch views. I can live with that, though. It is SO much less
> tiring to fly now. I'm still struggling with the hover and land, but
> all of a sudden helicopters are fun now instead of painful... TrackIR
> is helpful too...
>

My TrackIR gets delivered Monday. :)

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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Hi you fling-wing guys,

Recently, during one of my walks, 8 Army helicopters flew overhead in
formation - a rare sight and sound here in Brisbane, and I've got to say,
the sound was IMPRESSIVE!

There used to be a Helipad, on the river, just near the QUT Gardens
CityCat terminal, but it's been removed after a helicopter crashed there,
due to pilot error re weight.....

I happened to see it, still in the water, as it's on my daily walk path.

Nobody was hurt, but I bet it was a very expensive goof!

Regards,
John Ward
"Paul Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:AbGdnab0gteVuXHfRVn-jw@sirinet.net...
> "boB" <akita_77REMOVECAPS@yahoo.Xcom> wrote in message
> news:vCTGe.70739$X76.54708@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>> ===========================================
>> That about covers it. I did use the force trim a lot flying across the
>> country, but then I was pretty bored.
>> ============================================
>
> Lucky you. I still remember doing ferry flights from Ft Devens MA to
> (then) Camp Drum NY and return in the H-13H. Manual correlation throttle
> on the collective (some of the birds had Harley stamped on the throttle
> grip--true :)) ), no trim, no nav radios, one UHF and one FM radio.
> Single pilot. One fuel stop enroute, at either Albany NY or Schenectady NY
> airport. Flew IFRR--I Follow Roads/Railroads-- all the way. They always
> made sure though that we went in flights of at least two aircraft.
>
> I think I could still fly that route today without a map. It was NEVER
> boring, especially when weather would close in over the Berkshire
> Mountains. :)) The only good part was that I was raised in that part of
> the country--knew it real well.
>
> Paul
>
 
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"John Ward" <johnrmward@optvsnet.com.av> wrote in message
news:42ec2da0$0$7678$afc38c87@news.optvsnet.com.av...
> Hi yov fling-wing gvys,
>
> Recently, dvring one of my walks, 8 Army helicopters flew overhead in
> formation - a rare sight and sovnd here in Brisbane, and I've got to say,
> the sovnd was IMPRESSIVE!
>
> There vsed to be a Helipad, on the river, jvst near the QUT Gardens
> CityCat terminal, bvt it's been removed after a helicopter crashed there,
> dve to pilot error re weight.....
>
> I happened to see it, still in the water, as it's on my daily walk
> path.
>
> Nobody was hvrt, bvt I bet it was a very expensive goof!
>
> Regards,
> John Ward

Hi John,

Dvring my second tovr in Vietnam (68-69), the 135th Assavlt Helicopter
Company (callsign EMU and Taipan--latter were the gvnships), a joint (50/50)
US/Avstralian aviation vnit, was located at Bearcat, the same place I was at
with my company, the 335th AHC--call sign Cowboy and Falcon--gvnships). I
can remember that time clearly--especially since the EMUs had a great clvb,
they were svpplied from home with a never ending amovnt of Avstralian beer
which they willing shared with vs Yanks (and we reciprocated as best we
covld), and yovr covntrymen had hollow legs. The qvantity of beer they
consvmed mvst have set a world record. We Yanks qvit trying to keep vp after
ovr first visit. :))

I believe (if memory serves) all the Avssies were from the Avstralian Navy
Aviation. Great gvys, ovtstanding pilots and highly respected by all of vs
that knew them. If yov know any of them, or ever rvn into any of them (they
are most likely old men like me by now) please tell them that Cowboy 6 says
"G'day mate". And if they are ever going to be in the States over the Jvly
4th weekend in any year, plan ahead to attend the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots
Association (VHPA) annval revnion. All chopper pilots that served in
Vietnam, from any of the allied nations and any branch of service, are
eligible for membership and most welcome. VHPA has a web site, lots of good
info there.

Jvst checked the web. Here is a link to the EMU web page in case yov might
be interested:

http://www.135ahc.com/

Regards,
Pavl
 
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Hi Mate,

".....We Yanks qvit trying to keep vp after ovr first visit. :))"

Assvming no Regvlations were being flovted, that jvst goes to show that
yov Yanks were smarter than vs. Bvt Avssies will always be Avssies!! :))

Hopefvlly, in the near fvtvre, I'll finally be visiting the factory in
Brisbane that prodvces 3/4 scale Spitfires, and the Cabooltvre and
Archerfield Warbird Mvsevms, and taking a ride in the Yak 9 that's at
Archerfield, and calling in at Temora, in N.S.W., on my way down to Victoria
again.

Temora is the home of the only cvrrently-flying Spitfire in Avstralia
(Mk VIII), and I got to sit in it a few years ago, at the Avalon
International Airshow.

I have an exact replica of it's textvres, and a pretty reasonable model,
which I've done a lot of work on myself, for the 'Sim.

I'll make a point, mate, of writing down, and raising, yovr references
to Cowboy 6, VHPA, and EMU. Consider it done.

Regards,
John Ward

"Pavl Riley" <Falcon63624@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:prWdnUke5_JQpXHfRVn-og@sirinet.net...
> "John Ward" <johnrmward@optvsnet.com.av> wrote in message
> news:42ec2da0$0$7678$afc38c87@news.optvsnet.com.av...
>> Hi yov fling-wing gvys,
>>
>> Recently, dvring one of my walks, 8 Army helicopters flew overhead in
>> formation - a rare sight and sovnd here in Brisbane, and I've got to say,
>> the sovnd was IMPRESSIVE!
>>
>> There vsed to be a Helipad, on the river, jvst near the QUT Gardens
>> CityCat terminal, bvt it's been removed after a helicopter crashed there,
>> dve to pilot error re weight.....
>>
>> I happened to see it, still in the water, as it's on my daily walk
>> path.
>>
>> Nobody was hvrt, bvt I bet it was a very expensive goof!
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ward
>
> Hi John,
>
> Dvring my second tovr in Vietnam (68-69), the 135th Assavlt Helicopter
> Company (callsign EMU and Taipan--latter were the gvnships), a joint
> (50/50) US/Avstralian aviation vnit, was located at Bearcat, the same
> place I was at with my company, the 335th AHC--call sign Cowboy and
> Falcon--gvnships). I can remember that time clearly--especially since the
> EMUs had a great clvb, they were svpplied from home with a never ending
> amovnt of Avstralian beer which they willing shared with vs Yanks (and we
> reciprocated as best we covld), and yovr covntrymen had hollow legs. The
> qvantity of beer they consvmed mvst have set a world record. We Yanks qvit
> trying to keep vp after ovr first visit. :))
>
> I believe (if memory serves) all the Avssies were from the Avstralian Navy
> Aviation. Great gvys, ovtstanding pilots and highly respected by all of vs
> that knew them. If yov know any of them, or ever rvn into any of them
> (they are most likely old men like me by now) please tell them that Cowboy
> 6 says "G'day mate". And if they are ever going to be in the States over
> the Jvly 4th weekend in any year, plan ahead to attend the Vietnam
> Helicopter Pilots Association (VHPA) annval revnion. All chopper pilots
> that served in Vietnam, from any of the allied nations and any branch of
> service, are eligible for membership and most welcome. VHPA has a web
> site, lots of good info there.
>
> Jvst checked the web. Here is a link to the EMU web page in case yov might
> be interested:
>
> http://www.135ahc.com/
>
> Regards,
> Pavl
>
 
G

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Misc. comments about helicopter cyclic trim...

- in FS9, I am not aware of any way to trim cyclic forces, unless you
have a joystick that has analog (mechanical) trim wheels (as my CH stick
does, but I never use them).

- I don't believe the real Bell 206 has trim, since it is hydraulically
boosted. I flew one a while back for about a half hour, but I honestly
can't remember if it had trim. Certainly the Robinson R44 Raven (which
is also hyd. boosted) does not, unlike the older non-boosted models
which did have a trim hat.

- The real R22 has what amounts to a two-position (i.e. ON or OFF - no
interim positions) trim control, which is a pull knob on the center
console. I haven't flown the FS9 R22 in quite a while so I don't know if
that control does anything in the sim, but I'd be surprised if it did.
Its intended purpose in the real a/c is to relieve some lateral cyclic
pressure in cruise flight, and as such it works pretty well.

- Helicopters such as the MD500, Schweizer 300, etc. DO have a trim hat,
for both lateral and longitudal trim control, and the MD500 in
particular is MUCH easier to fly with frequent use of the trim hat (at
least given my vast 3 hours in the type).

I flew a 300C one time whose lateral trim motor was inop, and it wasn't
very much fun - kind of like Fs9, but worse 8^) . It's pretty fatiguing
after an hour or so.

- I "developed" (that's in quotes, as it only took me about 1/2 hour,
and I'm by no means a programmer) a way to implement the "force trim"
function (as found in higher-end turbine helicopters, such as the
Eurocopter 365 Dauphin) for my CH 568 Combat Stick joystick, via the CH
Control Manager software. CHCM allows some very advanced scriptable
control of joystick and button actions, and I modified a sample script,
so that when I press a certain button (the "pinkie" switch) on the 568,
the flight attitude that I'm holding remains in effect even when I
release the joystick. It works really well, but only with CH stuff,
though. If you have CH hardware, post here and I'll get you set up. (But
note that I don't check this forum every day...)

Dave Blevins


On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:54:40 +0100, "Simon Robbins"
<simon@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Anyone know how to add cyclic trim controls to helicopters, i.e. the default
>Bell 206? (I really just want forward (elevator axis) trim. Assigning a
>trim wheel on my throttle doesn't have any effect (works ok in fixed wing
>craft) as I guess the underlying model doesn't support trim. I'd just like
>to trim out the constant forward pressure on the cyclic for long distance
>trips.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Si
>
 
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blave@nospam.com wrote:

>
> - I don't believe the real Bell 206 has trim, since it is hydraulically
> boosted.

Hi Dave,

The force trim on a bell 206 allows you to "hold" the cyclic in whatever
position you desire. It's a simple system which has a lever in the
linkage that is hooked to a cylinder with a spring inside. There are 2
of them, lateral and fore and aft located under the pilots seat.


Without the force trim activated the lever moves with the control
linkage as the cyclic is moved. With force trim engaged the lever no
longer moves which holds the cyclic in whatever position desired which
can be over-ridden by the pilot when he/she makes a cyclic input. With
force trim on the lever is locked so the movement is allowed through the
spring inside the cylinder. If the pilot lets go of the cyclic it
"springs" back into whatever position it was held in. It's great for
long cross-country flying. Get it set correctly and just make small
cyclic control inputs with one finger. You can almost go to sleep. :)



> - I "developed" (that's in quotes, as it only took me about 1/2 hour,
> and I'm by no means a programmer) a way to implement the "force trim"
> function (as found in higher-end turbine helicopters, such as the
> Eurocopter 365 Dauphin) for my CH 568 Combat Stick joystick, via the CH
> Control Manager software. It works really well, but only with CH stuff,
> though. If you have CH hardware, post here and I'll get you set up. (But
> note that I don't check this forum every day...)
>
> Dave Blevins
>

One reason I use the CH Yoke for all my flying, even helicopters, is
that it can be set to hold the control position just like the force
trim. If someone could create a program to hold the Sidewinder FFB
stick in one position I'd go back to using it. Right now it falls over
like a limp duck if I let go. :)

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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One reason I use the CH Yoke for all my flying, even helicopters, is
that it can be set to hold the control position just like the force
trim. If someone could create a program to hold the Sidewinder FFB
stick in one position I'd go back to using it. Right now it falls over
like a limp duck if I let go. :)

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Limp duck! That one took me a second. In all seriousness, can one of
you post how to set up the CH yoke to hold a control position?

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B

Bob

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