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FS9 747 - Landing with APP and NAV

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August 1, 2005 11:06:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

It makes me so mad :( 
I try to use the NAV and APP but it just won't work right, I must be
missing something. Does anyone like to fly the 747 that came with FS9? I
like it that it's a big bird but it just behaves squirrely when I try to
land in the fog (is that it? fog?). I take off from KORD O' Hare and land at
KSTL St. Louis for a brief flight. I missed my appproach once due to that
APP wouldn't kick in, so I had to declare missed approach so I do the dance
of re-situating my aircraft to give it another go and it still acts batty.
It lines up ok but decent is, like, it wants to retain the altitude I came
in on. Wierd!

2992
August 1, 2005 12:20:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"2992" <nope@no_one.com> wrote in message
news:wfoHe.8474$Zt.1486@okepread05...
> It makes me so mad :( 
> I try to use the NAV and APP but it just won't work right, I must be
> missing something. Does anyone like to fly the 747 that came with FS9? I
> like it that it's a big bird but it just behaves squirrely when I try to
> land in the fog (is that it? fog?). I take off from KORD O' Hare and land
> at KSTL St. Louis for a brief flight. I missed my appproach once due to
> that APP wouldn't kick in, so I had to declare missed approach so I do the
> dance of re-situating my aircraft to give it another go and it still acts
> batty. It lines up ok but decent is, like, it wants to retain the altitude
> I came in on. Wierd!
>
> 2992

Not sure of the distance of the flight, but suggest you ensure you are not
too heavy with fuel..this can cause bad approaches.

When you intercept the ILS do so at an altitude below the GS .This will
ensure that the GS locks and you start down on the GS. For example, you have
the ILS freq active and approaching the runway from a 30 degree angle (best
max angle for intercept) at say 3000 feet. With both the LOC and the GS
active on your NAV1, engage the APP. It will intercept and then descend on
the GS. If the GS portion is not active and the APP is on, lots of times it
will not engage and descend.

Of course all this is done with the AP master switch on, in NAV mode not
GPS.

Hope this helps. Of course mucho practice :-)

good luck
Bill
August 1, 2005 12:20:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Not sure of the distance of the flight, but suggest you ensure you are not
> too heavy with fuel..this can cause bad approaches.

I have 58,000 lbs of fuel left. I was afraid of running out, but I'm still
getting used to the bird....


> When you intercept the ILS do so at an altitude below the GS .This will
> ensure that the GS locks and you start down on the GS. For example, you
> have the ILS freq active and approaching the runway from a 30 degree angle
> (best max angle for intercept) at say 3000 feet. With both the LOC and the
> GS active on your NAV1, engage the APP. It will intercept and then descend
> on the GS. If the GS portion is not active and the APP is on, lots of
> times it will not engage and descend.

That might be my problem. ATC usually has me 2,000 above the runway, if
that. I believe the altitude of KSTL is like 560 or 660 so that leaves about
1900 or 1800 feet to play with. Not much at all!

> Of course all this is done with the AP master switch on, in NAV mode not
> GPS.

yup



> Hope this helps. Of course mucho practice :-)
>
> good luck
> Bill
>
Related resources
August 1, 2005 1:16:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"2992" <nope@no_one.com> wrote in message
news:RMoHe.8537$Zt.4305@okepread05...
>
>> Not sure of the distance of the flight, but suggest you ensure you are
>> not
>> too heavy with fuel..this can cause bad approaches.
>
> I have 58,000 lbs of fuel left. I was afraid of running out, but I'm still
> getting used to the bird....
>
>
>> When you intercept the ILS do so at an altitude below the GS .This will
>> ensure that the GS locks and you start down on the GS. For example, you
>> have the ILS freq active and approaching the runway from a 30 degree
>> angle (best max angle for intercept) at say 3000 feet. With both the LOC
>> and the GS active on your NAV1, engage the APP. It will intercept and
>> then descend on the GS. If the GS portion is not active and the APP is
>> on, lots of times it will not engage and descend.
>
> That might be my problem. ATC usually has me 2,000 above the runway, if
> that. I believe the altitude of KSTL is like 560 or 660 so that leaves
> about 1900 or 1800 feet to play with. Not much at all!
>
>> Of course all this is done with the AP master switch on, in NAV mode not
>> GPS.
>
> yup
>
>
>
>> Hope this helps. Of course mucho practice :-)
>>
>> good luck
>> Bill
>>
>
2000 feet is ok. Its not the altitude as much as when you turn on the APP.
If you turn on the APP hold prior to the GS activating you will not capture
the GS for descent. The ILS has two functions, runway alignment or the LOC
and the GS for altitude. If you turn on the APP when only the LOC portion is
active it will not intercept the GS portion when it comes on. I hope I am
not confusing you too much. :-) Its the same proc. for all the jets.

Bill
August 1, 2005 1:50:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

My little suggestion is to have the HDG button depressed, not the NAV. I'm
not entirely sure of the difference, but I think there is one. When the
localizer is intercepted, the HDG button goes out and the aircraft begins
its turn towards the airport. When it intercepts the GS, the ALT button
goes out and the aircraft descends.

There are times when one, the other or both doesn't happen, and I declare a
missed approach. I then wipe off the monitor after spitting.

Arthur

"William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
news:ZepHe.2140$hp.350@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

>>>
>>
> 2000 feet is ok. Its not the altitude as much as when you turn on the APP.
> If you turn on the APP hold prior to the GS activating you will not
> capture the GS for descent. The ILS has two functions, runway alignment or
> the LOC and the GS for altitude. If you turn on the APP when only the LOC
> portion is active it will not intercept the GS portion when it comes on. I
> hope I am not confusing you too much. :-) Its the same proc. for all the
> jets.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
August 1, 2005 2:31:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Yes I agree both the HDG and ALT buttons are to be on prior to engaging the
APP. The NAV reference for me was to ensure the NAV mode is used and not the
GPS mode

Thanks

Bill


"Arthur" <alspectorz@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:BOudnYBMofd3tXPfRVn-pg@rogers.com...
> My little suggestion is to have the HDG button depressed, not the NAV.
> I'm not entirely sure of the difference, but I think there is one. When
> the localizer is intercepted, the HDG button goes out and the aircraft
> begins its turn towards the airport. When it intercepts the GS, the ALT
> button goes out and the aircraft descends.
>
> There are times when one, the other or both doesn't happen, and I declare
> a missed approach. I then wipe off the monitor after spitting.
>
> Arthur
>
> "William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
> news:ZepHe.2140$hp.350@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
>>>>
>>>
>> 2000 feet is ok. Its not the altitude as much as when you turn on the
>> APP. If you turn on the APP hold prior to the GS activating you will not
>> capture the GS for descent. The ILS has two functions, runway alignment
>> or the LOC and the GS for altitude. If you turn on the APP when only the
>> LOC portion is active it will not intercept the GS portion when it comes
>> on. I hope I am not confusing you too much. :-) Its the same proc. for
>> all the jets.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 5:20:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> It lines up ok but decent is, like, it wants to retain the altitude I came
> in on. Wierd!

did you turn off alt hold? or does it do that automaticaly? I know it sounds
silly to ask that.

I, myself have never really used APP for landing, i prefer doing it manualy.
When i do, it follows the line perfectly untill the very end, at which point
it often goes totaly offline and crashes to the side of the runway....

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
August 1, 2005 5:20:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Adam Webb" <adam@ajmysecondname.eclipse.co.uk> wrote in message
news:huidnfARGtkSjnPfRVnyhA@eclipse.net.uk...
>> It lines up ok but decent is, like, it wants to retain the altitude I
>> came in on. Wierd!
>
> did you turn off alt hold? or does it do that automaticaly? I know it
> sounds silly to ask that.

it comes off automatically, but the nose was, like, tiltling upwards. I
don't know how to explain that.....

> I, myself have never really used APP for landing, i prefer doing it
> manualy. When i do, it follows the line perfectly untill the very end, at
> which point it often goes totaly offline and crashes to the side of the
> runway....
>

I think I'm going to switch to the 737, it's a little more forgiving. ;) 


> From Overlag - Adam Webb
>
August 1, 2005 8:01:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

wow, GREAT tips! thx :) 

I'll get back to that bird sometime, just got the 737NG and it's LOVELY as
you know........
I'm getting into VATsim and will be using the 737NG for that mainly I think.
I'm not sure if I'm going to buy the 747-400 from PDMG, it's still a 747.
MD11, oh yeah, I like the midsize heavies.

2992

"William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
news:o lqHe.2552$hp.692@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Yes I agree both the HDG and ALT buttons are to be on prior to engaging
> the APP. The NAV reference for me was to ensure the NAV mode is used and
> not the GPS mode
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill
>
>
> "Arthur" <alspectorz@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:BOudnYBMofd3tXPfRVn-pg@rogers.com...
>> My little suggestion is to have the HDG button depressed, not the NAV.
>> I'm not entirely sure of the difference, but I think there is one. When
>> the localizer is intercepted, the HDG button goes out and the aircraft
>> begins its turn towards the airport. When it intercepts the GS, the ALT
>> button goes out and the aircraft descends.
>>
>> There are times when one, the other or both doesn't happen, and I declare
>> a missed approach. I then wipe off the monitor after spitting.
>>
>> Arthur
>>
>> "William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
>> news:ZepHe.2140$hp.350@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> 2000 feet is ok. Its not the altitude as much as when you turn on the
>>> APP. If you turn on the APP hold prior to the GS activating you will not
>>> capture the GS for descent. The ILS has two functions, runway alignment
>>> or the LOC and the GS for altitude. If you turn on the APP when only the
>>> LOC portion is active it will not intercept the GS portion when it comes
>>> on. I hope I am not confusing you too much. :-) Its the same proc. for
>>> all the jets.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
August 2, 2005 11:08:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Just thought I would cover the basics. Did you happen to have the ILS
frequency set for the other end of the rwy? That would explain why you can
intercept the LOC and not the glideslope.

Bryan

"2992" <nope@no_one.com> wrote in message
news:wfoHe.8474$Zt.1486@okepread05...
> It makes me so mad :( 
> I try to use the NAV and APP but it just won't work right, I must be
> missing something. Does anyone like to fly the 747 that came with FS9? I
> like it that it's a big bird but it just behaves squirrely when I try to
> land in the fog (is that it? fog?). I take off from KORD O' Hare and land
> at KSTL St. Louis for a brief flight. I missed my appproach once due to
> that APP wouldn't kick in, so I had to declare missed approach so I do the
> dance of re-situating my aircraft to give it another go and it still acts
> batty. It lines up ok but decent is, like, it wants to retain the altitude
> I came in on. Wierd!
>
> 2992
>
August 2, 2005 11:59:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

The more I read ur post the more I think SPEED is your problem.

Remeber that you have to correlate your Vref with the weight of the
a/c. You'r looking at 130kias with flaps 30 if you weigh 450,000lbs,
and 181kias with flaps 30 if you weigh 880,000lbs. For weights in
between you have to extrapolate because FS doesn't give us a chart -
and the info they give is VERY basic at best.

According to your weight your Vref is about 130kias...I would fly 160
to the MM then bring it down to about 140 and see how the nose behaves.

Keep in mind that your seat is waaaaay up high and if you look at your
VASI lights for guidance you should see 3white 1red - otherwise your
main gear will land on the grass behind you.

I honestly think its a speed issue.

Damian
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 10:33:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"2992" <nope@no_one.com> wrote in message
news:wfoHe.8474$Zt.1486@okepread05...
> It makes me so mad :( 
> I try to use the NAV and APP but it just won't work right, I must be
> missing something. Does anyone like to fly the 747 that came with FS9? I
> like it that it's a big bird but it just behaves squirrely when I try to
> land in the fog (is that it? fog?). I take off from KORD O' Hare and land
> at KSTL St. Louis for a brief flight. I missed my appproach once due to
> that APP wouldn't kick in, so I had to declare missed approach so I do the
> dance of re-situating my aircraft to give it another go and it still acts
> batty. It lines up ok but decent is, like, it wants to retain the altitude
> I came in on. Wierd!
>
> 2992

Bringing the Queen in to land is a finely orchestrated sequence of events ,
and omission of one or several parts of that sequence can lead to a missed
approach ( at best) or a crash ( more likely).

First , as mentioned previously , dont have too much fuel on board. Look to
land with about 10-15% fuel in tanks.

To acquire the glideslope , make sure your NAV 1 radio is set to the ILS
freq for your desired runway , and your NAV 2 radio to the VOR for the
Airport you intend to land at . Setting the ADF to the NDB freq will display
your distance from that Navaid ( and hence the airport). On your panel you
will notice on the right hand side , a series of white marks , and a Magenta
triangle. This is your Glideslope Reference. If the marker is in the middle
of the white marks , you are exactly on the Glideslope ( typically 3
degrees ) . If the Magenta marker is ABOVE the middle , the Glideslope is
BELOW you , ie you are too high. If it is BELOW the middle mark , the
glideslope is ABOVE you, you are too low.

Preset your desired altitude , when you have acquired the glideslope , the
aircraft will descend at the correct rate , until you reach that altitude. A
good rule of thumb is to turn the Autopilot OFF when you are a) Visual with
the runway , or b) 600 feet altitude . ( Unless your aircraft is equipped
with autoland !)

Set the Autothrottle a little above your desired landing speed , this will
give you a bit of reserve to keep away from a stall. Landing speed should
not be below 133 KIAS , this would be for a short field landing , typically
at a major international airport , landing speed should be about 140- 145
KIAS.

Try to keep your rate of descent to no more than about 700 FPM , with the
attitude of your aircraft about 3 - 5 degrees " Nose Up."

The more flaps you have extended , the slower you can fly , so FULL FLAPS
for EVERY landing.

You MUST be BELOW the glideslope for the Autopilot to acquire it . A check
of the Panel should show 1) FlightDirector ON , 2) AutoThrottle ON ,
3)Autopilot COMMAND , 4) NAV selected ( not GPS ) . When you acquire the
glideslope ( indicated by the white markings , Magenta triangle ) select APP
, and the aircraft should turn to a heading that will line you up with the
runway , at the same time descending at the correct rate to touch down just
after the " Piano Keys".

A few other things , Autobrakes set to 2 or 3 , Speed brakes ARMED .

Finally , practice it a lot , and it will all come together !!

Safe landings ,

Ross
August 4, 2005 10:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

QVA08 wrote:

> Bringing the Queen in to land is a finely orchestrated sequence of events ,
>
> Finally , practice it a lot , and it will all come together !!
>
> Safe landings ,
>
> Ross
>
>
>

Ross, the aircraft I fly each have some of what you listed, none have
all, but I'm saving this message. :)  Now I know what auto-throttles do.

Thanks


--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 10:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:33:09 +1000, "QVA08" <dontbesp@mmingme.com>
wrote:


>
>To acquire the glideslope , make sure your NAV 1 radio is set to the ILS
>freq for your desired runway , and your NAV 2 radio to the VOR for the
>Airport you intend to land at . Setting the ADF to the NDB freq will display
>your distance from that Navaid ( and hence the airport). On your panel you
>will notice on the right hand side , a series of white marks , and a Magenta
>triangle. This is your Glideslope Reference. If the marker is in the middle
>of the white marks , you are exactly on the Glideslope ( typically 3
>degrees ) . If the Magenta marker is ABOVE the middle , the Glideslope is
>BELOW you , ie you are too high. If it is BELOW the middle mark , the
>glideslope is ABOVE you, you are too low.
>
>Preset your desired altitude , when you have acquired the glideslope , the
>aircraft will descend at the correct rate , until you reach that altitude. A
>good rule of thumb is to turn the Autopilot OFF when you are a) Visual with
>the runway , or b) 600 feet altitude . ( Unless your aircraft is equipped
>with autoland !)

A good rule of thumb is to be about 2400 AGL of the airport of
intended landing before you intercept the localizer/glideslope. So,
check the elevation of the airport, and add 2400 feet to determine
your approach altitude. If you are lower you have less time to
stabilize your approach. If you are above you may fly thru the LOC/GS
before you have it locked.
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 11:05:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"boB" <akita_77REMOVECAPS@yahoo.Xcom> wrote in message
news:mzkIe.90828$0f.35949@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> QVA08 wrote:
>
>> Bringing the Queen in to land is a finely orchestrated sequence of events
>> ,
>>
>> Finally , practice it a lot , and it will all come together !!
>>
>> Safe landings ,
>>
>> Ross
>>
>>
>>
>
> Ross, the aircraft I fly each have some of what you listed, none have all,
> but I'm saving this message. :)  Now I know what auto-throttles do.
>
> Thanks

No worries Bob , that is by no means a comprehensive tutorial , more of a
quick guide , might take some of the curse out of landing the Big One !!

Ross
!