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Is FS9's inclinometer poorly modeled?

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August 2, 2005 1:05:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

I don't recall this being discussed very much in this group, but I find the
inclinometer in most FS9 aircraft to be goofy. Trying to keep the ball
centered often seems impossible.

In one aircraft, if I apply enough rudder to center the ball during a turn,
I actually have to apply opposite ailerons to make a standard-rate
coordinated turn. Over the years I've just ignored the gauge and apply what
I think would be reasonable rudder for the turn.

Is this my set up, or is it me, or is this a common problem?


Dallas
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 4:13:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:x8wHe.689$I04.587@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I don't recall this being discussed very much in this group, but I find the
> inclinometer in most FS9 aircraft to be goofy. Trying to keep the ball
> centered often seems impossible.
>
> In one aircraft, if I apply enough rudder to center the ball during a
> turn,
> I actually have to apply opposite ailerons to make a standard-rate
> coordinated turn. Over the years I've just ignored the gauge and apply
> what
> I think would be reasonable rudder for the turn.
>
> Is this my set up, or is it me, or is this a common problem?
>
>
> Dallas
>
Maybe it's a combination of all ;-)
Depending on the A/C you're moving you should never forget that once a
certain power setting is applied you should center the ball in level flight
by means of the rudder trim (if available). Once properly trimmed most A/C
do not need rudder input for a coordinated rate one turn. If you apply
rudder you might indeed have to counteract with opposite aileron input. But
I also must admit that the turn-and-bank coordinator (as it might be called
properly) is somewhat sluggish on some FS A/C. I usually trim the A/C for
zero ball deflection for climb or cruise and disregard it's indication
during turns...... From IRL experience I can tell you that I NEVER used
rudder during normal flight in any A/C. Using rudder inflight is what we
call here "glider pilot's habit" ;-)
Yes, of course during T/O or landing it might be used to counteract some
nasty crosswinds and P-factors and...and....
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 4:13:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Welcome back, Oskar. You were missed.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
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August 2, 2005 8:37:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner"
> From IRL experience I can tell you that I NEVER used
> rudder during normal flight in any A/C.

<Mouth drops open>
I suddenly feel like I know nothing at all about flying. I thought the
whole idea behind the concept of a "coordinated turn" was to use the rudder
to counteract the drag on the high wing during every turn.

What an I missing?

Dallas
August 2, 2005 8:37:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:37:52 GMT, "Dallas"
<Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> brought the following :
>
>"Oskar Wagner"
>> From IRL experience I can tell you that I NEVER used
>> rudder during normal flight in any A/C.
>
>I suddenly feel like I know nothing at all about flying. I thought the whole
>idea behind the concept of a "coordinated turn" was to use the rudder
>to counteract the drag on the high wing during every turn.
>
>What an I missing?
>
>Dallas
>

this ought to be a good one to follow along!! (:-)

-g
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 2:48:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:AMCHe.8231$Uk3.2435@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Oskar Wagner"
>> From IRL experience I can tell you that I NEVER used
>> rudder during normal flight in any A/C.
>
> <Mouth drops open>
> I suddenly feel like I know nothing at all about flying. I thought the
> whole idea behind the concept of a "coordinated turn" was to use the
> rudder
> to counteract the drag on the high wing during every turn.
>
> What an I missing?
>
> Dallas
>
>
No, the "adverse yaw" is usually counteracted by asymmetrical aileron
deflection e.g. the aileron of the inner wing (inside the turn) is deflected
more than his opposite fellow thus also creating more drag. It's a common
trick throughout aviaton nowadays. ;-)
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 5:53:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fkob7emnygvj.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Oskar Wagner <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote:
>
>> No, the "adverse yaw" is usually counteracted by asymmetrical aileron
>> deflection e.g. the aileron of the inner wing (inside the turn) is
>> deflected
>> more than his opposite fellow thus also creating more drag. It's a common
>> trick throughout aviaton nowadays. ;-)
>
> I have never read of this, nor is this taught in flight schools throughout
> the US.
>
>
> --
> Peter

They're called Frise (FREE-SAY) Ailerons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileron

We talked about this type during my flight lessons.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 7:26:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Gregory,

This one could set a new record for The Longest Thread! :-)

Regards,
John Ward
"Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gcvte1tv1pe43p1ujdhkttoahi6op6b8mu@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:37:52 GMT, "Dallas"
> <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> brought the following :
>>
>>"Oskar Wagner"
>>> From IRL experience I can tell you that I NEVER used
>>> rudder during normal flight in any A/C.
>>
>>I suddenly feel like I know nothing at all about flying. I thought the
>>whole
>>idea behind the concept of a "coordinated turn" was to use the rudder
>>to counteract the drag on the high wing during every turn.
>>
>>What an I missing?
>>
>>Dallas
>>
>
> this ought to be a good one to follow along!! (:-)
>
> -g
>
August 2, 2005 7:26:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:26:20 +1000, "John Ward"
<johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> brought the following to our attention:

>Hi Gregory,
>
> This one could set a new record for The Longest Thread! :-)
>
>Regards,
>John Ward

hmm we'll see.. the recent `T-word' FS thread was right up there...


>"Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> wrote in message
>
>> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:37:52 GMT, "Dallas"
>> <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> brought the following :
>>>
>>>"Oskar Wagner"
>>>> From IRL experience I can tell you that I NEVER used
>>>> rudder during normal flight in any A/C.
>>>
>>>I suddenly feel like I know nothing at all about flying. I thought the
>>>whole
>>>idea behind the concept of a "coordinated turn" was to use the rudder
>>>to counteract the drag on the high wing during every turn.
>>>
>>>What an I missing?
>>>
>>>Dallas
>>>
>>
>> this ought to be a good one to follow along!! (:-)
>>
>> -g
>>
>
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 9:24:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:fkob7emnygvj.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Oskar Wagner <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote:
>
>> No, the "adverse yaw" is usually counteracted by asymmetrical aileron
>> deflection e.g. the aileron of the inner wing (inside the turn) is
>> deflected
>> more than his opposite fellow thus also creating more drag. It's a common
>> trick throughout aviaton nowadays. ;-)
>
> I have never read of this, nor is this taught in flight schools throughout
> the US.
>
>
> --
> Peter
>
Hmmm, just have a quick look at the aileron deflection on a RL Cessna 152 or
172 and you will see what I mean ;-) And btw, I did my first 2000 hrs flying
time on small iron.....lol Never mind :-)
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
August 2, 2005 9:24:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Beech45Whiskey wrote:
> Oskar Wagner <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote:
> Are you stating that there is no need for the pilot's use of rudder in a
> C152/172 or aircraft of similar design due to the fact that the opposite
> aileron will counteract the adverse yaw during a banking turn?
>

I too have an interest in this, as I have recently been reading the
FAA's airplane flying handbook to help me to do things a bit more
properly in the sim and improve my virtual flying. I don't fly at all
IRL. Section 3 of this handbook (p3-7 onwards) deals with co-ordinated
turns and talks about using the rudder to offset any yaw effects caused
by the other controls. This handbook is linked to from...

http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulator/fs2004_f...

....and section 3 is in part 2.

I'm obviously not trying to contradict either Oskar or Peter or any
other real pilots, I'd just be interested to know one way or the other.

Cheers,

Craig
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:13:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:kkgg2vlmzkt9$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Oskar Wagner <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, just have a quick look at the aileron deflection on a RL Cessna 152
>> or
>> 172 and you will see what I mean ;-)
>
> Hey, Oskar, I did not mean for my previous comment to appear rude. As
> someone who is heavily involved in general aviation, I meant that is a
> short fact that this is not what is being taught in the flight schools
> around the US.
>
> I am generally interested in your statement and I certainly respect your
> experience and knowledge, but let me make sure I am properly interpreting
> it.
>
> Are you stating that there is no need for the pilot's use of rudder in a
> C152/172 or aircraft of similar design due to the fact that the opposite
> aileron will counteract the adverse yaw during a banking turn?
>
>> And btw, I did my first 2000 hrs flying
>> time on small iron.....lol Never mind :-)
>
> I believe it. How many thousands of hours and years ago was that?
>
> --
> Peter
>

Well, who said that it's going to be a neverending thread? ;-) I feel no
rudeness in your comments, don't worry and I know exactly what the whole
thing is about and I understand the discussions about applying rudder in
coordinated turns. The thing is of course that no A/C (especially not prop
A/C) will ever fly completely "symmetrical" so to speak. You will even
notice that turning left or right will not have the same amount of
corrections needed due to torque and P-factor. For big iron of course no one
would ever touch the rudder as yawdampers do their utmost to make a clean
turn. In small A/C however there are a few goodies to compensate for most of
the adverse influences during a turn. Such as:

- differential aileron deflection to compensate adverse yaw during lead-in
and lead-out of a turn
- wing dihedral to compensate (self erecting force) for increased lift of
the outer wing

Now if you're going to have the ball completely and accurately centered
(sorry, I would call that nitpicking.... ;-)) you can of course play around
with rudder. Just don't forget to look outside (or to the other instuments
if flying IFR) ....
Maybe we have different instruction schemes here in Europe than in the US
but I must honestly say that we never cared too much about excatly centered
balls during a turn for the benefit of more important things in aviation.
Don't get me wrong, I'm talking about a millimeter or two standoff, not a
whole ball diameter of course. And I also must admit that I haven't found
any of the small A/C that would not do an almost zero standoff turn without
applying rudder when smoothly flown. I usually even encouraged students to
take their feet off the pedals during level flight (as I always did myself
too...).

To answer your question about my flight time and date(s): Last instruction
flight dates from 1998 (ok, IFR instruction in a C421) and total hours flown
something in excess of 16'000 hrs.
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
August 3, 2005 3:08:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey"
> The Bonanza, as you know, has interlinked controls so that proper rudder
> (from the ruddervators) is automatically applied during a turn.

I didn't know that. Can you override the interlink with the pedals?

Dallas
August 3, 2005 3:38:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner"
> Now if you're going to have the ball completely and accurately centered
> (sorry, I would call that nitpicking.... ;-))

Good... I gave up trying to "center" the ball in FS.

I admit to having trouble in real life too.. flying in the back seat of a
Citabria I couldn't see any instruments. In turns, my "instructor" kept
saying "Can't you feel it?". Well, no... I couldn't feel it in the seat
of my pants at all, so I did what I do in the sim, approximate the rudder
deflection. I'm still embarrassed I couldn't "feel it".

Dallas
August 3, 2005 6:25:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:


>
> Good... I gave up trying to "center" the ball in FS.
>
> I admit to having trouble in real life too.. flying in the back seat of a
> Citabria I couldn't see any instruments. In turns, my "instructor" kept
> saying "Can't you feel it?". Well, no... I couldn't feel it in the seat
> of my pants at all
>
> Dallas
>
>

You should not be embarrassed at all. The "feel" comes from many hours
of "feeling" how the control inputs affect the aircraft as felt through
the "seat" of our pants. Your instructor should never fail to realize
that this takes time and cannot be rushed. From rote to understanding to
application takes time. The instructor is there to guide you along,
not to blurt out "can't you feel it".

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 1:42:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s3x3uzgxdlpa$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Jay Beckman <jnsbeckman@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> They're called Frise (FREE-SAY) Ailerons.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileron
>>
>> We talked about this type during my flight lessons.
>
> Thanks. What aircraft are equipped with these type of ailerons?
>
> --
> Peter

Peter...

Here's one example:

http://www.inflightusa.com/tech/o.tech_10.html

Third paragraph mentions them.

Jay
August 4, 2005 1:41:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey"
> Frise ailerons accomplish this differential profile drag by maintaining a
> smooth contour between the upper surfaces of the wing and aileron, causing
> very little drag,

I've wondered why you must have both ailerons deflect. What if you just had
larger ailerons that only deflected upwards. To bank left, the left aileron
deflects upward and the right does nothing.

I guess that's close to the 'slot lip' spoiler system they came up with for
the Caravan.

Dallas
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 1:41:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:CSaIe.210$Wi6.2@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Beech45Whiskey"
>> Frise ailerons accomplish this differential profile drag by maintaining a
>> smooth contour between the upper surfaces of the wing and aileron,
>> causing
>> very little drag,
>
> I've wondered why you must have both ailerons deflect. What if you just
> had
> larger ailerons that only deflected upwards. To bank left, the left
> aileron
> deflects upward and the right does nothing.
>
> I guess that's close to the 'slot lip' spoiler system they came up with
> for
> the Caravan.
>
> Dallas

Exactly how spoilers work for roll control.

Jay
!