help me, gonna upgrade...

[invictus25]

hey guys, a few months back, i built my own pc which i thought was gonna be future-proof (at least the mobo).

but after dual g-card technology came out, i realised that my mobo doesnt have 2 x16 slots. bummer!

so anyways, i was just gonna ask about how the ati crossfire works. from wat i know, SLI simply requires 2 nvidia of the same gpu type to work. how about ati crossfire? must i use the same manufacturer and type of g card to work hand in hand? pls lemme know cos im kinda new to all this. and furthermore, i think now my system suck big time (even tho i can still play all high end games like fear).

my current suck-ass system :
amd 3000+ socket 939
msi k8n neo4f mobo
hitachi 80gb drive 7200 rpm
kingston 1x1g ram pc3200 cl3
pioneer dvd ram writer + dvd durner (combo) optical drive
creative audigy 7.1ch sound card
nvidia 6600 256mb ddr2 vram (8pixel pipeline and 128 bit memory interface)
true 400 watt psu

i will be getting a new mobo that is future-proof so that i dont need to change it again when i have enuf $ to get 2 ati card. but, my current priority now is to get another gig of ram and additional 300 gig of hard drive. after that, then i will get the mobo and 2 ati x800 gto. wat do u guys think?

 

[Shawcroft]

Hey, if you've got the cash to burn then SLI/Crossfires a nice option, but a computer doesn't have to have 2 graphics cards to be futureproof.

Where crossfire is concerned you need a normal ATI x8xx card and then a specialised crossfire card as well, but i think you'd be much better off with a single card with higher specs e.g. x1900xt or 7900GT.

Hope that helps

 

[doolittle]

why not just upgrade what you have and make it future proof?

Athlon 64 X2 4200+ $357 shipped
ATI RADEON X1900 XT 512MB (OEM) $458 shipped "made by ati" *nice*
Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-550 ATX12V 550W $90 shipped w/ $15 MIR

will be nicer I think...

 

[Shawcroft]

I definitely second that! tho if funds were a problem, then the CPU could wait a bit, as the x1900xt will make the most difference in games.

plus with the new AMD socket coming out soonish, it might be worth keeping your CPU for the time being (still a pretty good processor)

 

[doolittle]

good point - and with just that GPU upgrade the current 400W just may work without any problems as well 8) with the dual-core and extra memory it is a close shave... that warm, fuzzy feeling starts to fade

 

[Shawcroft]

Yeah, systems are getting a bit demanding of the PSUs, and the x1900xt will prob need a fair amount of power for all that pixel pumping! in fact ATI says 450W minimum with 30A on the 12V rail, so i think that upgrade will be needed, tho a decent PSU will be a good investment if you upgrade to the new AMD socket.

 

[sandmannight]

system aint bad. If I were you I would get a new video card(7900gt) and get a DFI lanparty MoBo and get some DDR500 Ram and OC that 3000+ then your system is back to its glory days

 

[chenBrazil]

with new releases every month for VGA , every year for CPU ... well future is dark... the only future proof rig is a dead rig... j/k ... why your system sucks ? Because your VGA suck ?(then upgrade it to 7900GT and you will notice lot's of diference) . Because you CPU does not have good numbers on 3d Mark ?(then change for a 3700 CPU or if your board support , X2). Maybe your HD is so full of MP3 that your games did not run smoothly...? (so get a new HD for master and put your current as slave to slow a little bit less your system) ... sure there are better rigs... but did your really reach it's limit ? upgrade is a good game... but we will always loose as all the companies already have their plans for the next 6 months and their plans include a lot of marketing effort to convince you that you need to change your rig again...

 

[invictus25]

thx so much for the recommendations guys...but i dont have to cash to splash on the x1900...that's freaking expensive...lol...currently, im still pretty happy with my system since i can play every games out there with max res...but i just wanna make sure that if i have the cash, i can upgrade parts of it w/o having to get new mobo...

here is my wishlist for my pc:
1) another gig of kingston ram pc3200
2) another 300 gig of hard drive 7200 rpm
3) new mobo supporting 2 of x16 pci slots
4) ati x800gto
5) another atix800gto
6) new cpu (mayb amd athlon X2)

oh yes, my current mobo supports amd dual core processor. cos it;s socket 939. but my issue is, which is better, should i get a new sli or crossfire mobo? since i prefer ati cards, can i use it on sli mobo? i mean, does sli mobo (meant for nvidia) supports dual ati cards?

lastly, are u guys saying that to make a crossfire system, i need to have (for example) atix800gto and a special crossfire card to be coupled with that x800? cos for sli system right, i simply neet to get 2 cards of the same gpu type. if that;s the case, crossfire system is a little more complicated since we need to get a special crossfire card to be coupled with specific ati g card.

and btw, my current system can generate 89 fps on CS with max settings. but it seems to be operating slower despite me using ad aware and spybot. damn those spywares!!! :twisted:

 

[Shawcroft]

Hey invictus, your wishlist doesn't look bad but i think you could make a better system by keeping your current motherboard and getting a single pci-e graphics card. The cost of a new m/b and two midrange graphics cards (if that, cos the x800gto is a bit antiquated now - perhaps you meant x1800gto) would be more than a single high-spec card.

Also, you will need a new PSU whichever path you choose, so remember to add that to your wishlist to prevent disappointment!

I'm not sure if your aware, but a SLI/Crossfire setup does not give a 100% increase over a single card of the same spec. im not sure what the exact figure is but its a lot less than 100 (maybe 60%?).

therefore the only situation where SLI is really needed is when you can't get much more juice out of a single card i.e. 2x high end cards.

So at the end of the day, your rig would be much better if you used your hard earned cash on a single pci-e card and not two cheaper cards and a new m/b.

If the x1900xt is too much then you could get a 7900GT instead and still get a massive performance increase.

 

[ikjadoon]

I'm not sure if your aware, but a SLI/Crossfire setup does not give a 100% increase over a single card of the same spec. im not sure what the exact figure is but its a lot less than 100 (maybe 60%?).

Agree with everything. Personally, SLi/Crossfire is only good for those who are either:
1)Trying to break the 3DMark '06 Record
2) Or those who play at extremely high resolutions with AA/AF turned up all way. I meanlike 1600X1200 with 16AA/8AF.

Only then will you see a 60% increase. You mentioned about using two ATI cards in an SLi motherboard and vice versa. This IS possible since they are just software things. I've heard people of a nVidia hack which'll let you run the cards. Not worth it, IMHO. The only thing that I would upgrade to your system, if ANY, would be the GPU. Maybe a 7900GT? PSU then might need to upgraded, but probably not.

~Ibrahim~

 

[invictus25]

If the x1900xt is too much then you could get a 7900GT instead and still get a massive performance increase.

thx shawcroft! but u truly over-estimate my purchasing ability...lmao.. in my country (singapore), an 7900gt would cost me about 550 bucks, which should be about us$ 345. and at each buy, i cant afford to spend that much since im still in university. i dont hold a full time job yet so i need to ask my folks for some cash to get it . that's y i wish to upgrade my pc gradually.

and i have 2 options with me now:
1) get a better card x850 xt
OR
2) get one x800gto and upgrade to dual card later on

which is better?

o also, i will definitely get a new psu. 400 watt is just to limited. so in the event that i get all my upgrades done (ram, hard drive, g card, etc) how many watt psu should i get? is 500 watt too much or sufficient?

 

[invictus25]

Agree with everything. Personally, SLi/Crossfire is only good for those who are either:
1)Trying to break the 3DMark '06 Record
2) Or those who play at extremely high resolutions with AA/AF turned up all way. I meanlike 1600X1200 with 16AA/8AF.

Only then will you see a 60% increase. You mentioned about using two ATI cards in an SLi motherboard and vice versa. This IS possible since they are just software things. I've heard people of a nVidia hack which'll let you run the cards. Not worth it, IMHO. The only thing that I would upgrade to your system, if ANY, would be the GPU. Maybe a 7900GT? PSU then might need to upgraded, but probably not.

~Ibrahim~

thx for the suggestion... but im not like trying to break the 3d mark record...lol...but it'd be nice to know that ur system can survive any games out there (at least for a few years). im quite an extreme gamers but im not very particular about the aa or af thingy (or any other setting for that matter). cos i usually just leave the other settings to default, except for resolution. i like to have maxxed resolution. and that would be 1024x768 since im using an 15inch lcd.

that is y im just gonna get ati x800 series card. but when i have enough cash, i will get another one to make it dual. so my intention is to make a dual performance from a mediocre card. wat do u think?

 

[ikjadoon]

Well, in all honesty, I still have to say go with one faster GPU then two slightly slower. If you REALLY want two GPUs, don't spend $$$$ yet, wait for the DX10 cards. THOSE will let you keep playing for a few years..

~Ibrahim~

 

[doolittle]

that is y im just gonna get ati x800 series card. but when i have enough cash, i will get another one to make it dual. so my intention is to make a dual performance from a mediocre card. wat do u think?

Moore's law will both work against you and work with you. It works against your SLI/crossfire upgrade because of the exponential increase in transistor tech will render getting a second older card a poor value for your dollar. But that is not a bad thing, because the next generation of gpu's are both cheaper and more powerful and will have (in most cases) more advanced graphics capability that the previous generations had, so it works for you in that respect.

 

[invictus25]

Moore's law will both work against you and work with you. It works against your SLI/crossfire upgrade because of the exponential increase in transistor tech will render getting a second older card a poor value for your dollar. But that is not a bad thing, because the next generation of gpu's are both cheaper and more powerful and will have (in most cases) more advanced graphics capability that the previous generations had, so it works for you in that respect.

i know wat moore's law is but how does it apply here. im not really sure about the transistor thingy. so anyways, u guys have influence my decision a great deal. initially i was quite intent on getting a new mobo to support dual ati x800 card. but after reading your replies, i am stuck in a total 50-50 dillema as to what i should do.

option 1:
should i upgrade my pc gradually (change my current 6600 to ati x800, then buy a new mobo to support dual g card then lastly buy another ati x800)?
adv:
i can get to enjoy my upgrade to x800 sooner and then move on to dual x800 (after another few months of savings).

option 2
should i just hold off and not do any upgrade for a longer period of time and ultimately get a better g card? (my budget will be about 250 USD, i know it;s not much and definitely not enough for x1900, so dont laugh at me... mayb the g card would be x850 xt or x1600 xt...which is better?)
adv
performance will be better (as compared to dual x800) (am i right?)
disadv
i will have to wait longer for the upgrade (need to save $) and have to make do with my 6600.


come on guys. give me your final advise... im really totally confused... in the mean time, i will just get my 1 more gig of ram and 300g of hard drive first. will settle with the graphic thingy after i make a decision based on your suggestions... i dont think that im gonna upgrade my cpu anytime soon. i think it is still good enough for me...

 

[Shawcroft]

OK, if you absolutely cannot save up a bigger amount (even the 300 USD or so for a 7900GT) then why not do this:

1) Buy a single card in your price range now e.g. x850xt
2) Enjoy vastly improved gaming for a year or so
3) Then get another single card thats at the top of your budget then (possibly something a lot better like 7900GT! )

That way you won't waste your money on a second antiquated card that'll not do much for you and lack a lot of features

So, anyway, my plead to someone of your budget is:
DON'T GET SLI/CROSSFIRE AS ONE GOOD CARD IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN 2 MEDIOCRE CARDS

p.s. Don't get a cheap PSU (go for an Antec or something) as you will really pay if you try and run a decent graphics card off a poorer quality power supply. (maybe go for a 500W+ Antec for futureproofing)

Hope all this helps and happy shopping!

 

[invictus25]

okay, i was just doing some research on the possible g card that i will buy if i go with option 2.

powercolor x850xt 256 mb ddr3 vivo (price $399 singapore dollar, about USD250)

OR

powercolor x1800gto 256mb ddr3 (price $459 singapore dollars, about USD287)

it appears to me that x1800gto is not as good as x1800xt and other x1800 series...http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1800/x1800gto.html so my question is, is x1800gto better than x850xt?

there u go. after deciding on the g card if i go with option 2, u guys can have a better understanding...so do help decide by giving me constructive comments as to which options to go for.

 

[Shawcroft]

Ok, now you know where you're going, can i throw another spanner in the works?

For that price range i would suggest getting the 7600GT, as thats what i was going to get for a while before i got a x1800xt that was on offer. tbh i regret getting that a bit, as it doesnt half run hot and the 7600GT seems a very good option.

See what other people think first tho, as i obviously havent tried a 7600GT but i know it gives a lot of bang for the buck

If you want to stick with ATI however, then i would say the x1800gto is the better option, as it seems that the x850xt is a previous chip being throttled for every last MHz, so the x1800gto would prob have more potential if you decided to overclock it a bit in the future (plus it has the later features that the x8xx series didnt have which do make a fair difference visually)

 

[jumpmaster]

You should get another gig of the same ram so that you can use dual chanell which will increase your systems performance as it seems your only using one stick right now.

 

[invictus25]

For that price range i would suggest getting the 7600GT, as thats what i was going to get for a while before i got a x1800xt that was on offer. tbh i regret getting that a bit, as it doesnt half run hot and the 7600GT seems a very good option.

seems like u are a big fan os nvidia...i, on the other hand, am a big fan os ati...lol...
anyways, i did some research and it appears to me that the price for 7600gt is even cheaper than x850xt (at least it is in singapore). so i was wondering if 7600gt is comparable to x850xt or x1800gto. because down here, a leadtek px7600gt 256mb ddr3 (dvi x2) cost $329 (singapore dollars...which is about 205USD. as compared to the x850xt and x1800gto, the price difference is quite significant. so is it really comparable (in terms of performance) to the ati x850 or even x1800gto series?

You should get another gig of the same ram so that you can use dual chanell which will increase your systems performance as it seems your only using one stick right now.

i was wondering wat u meant by dual channel? of course, i will be getting the same type and brand of ram. and btw, yes im using 1 stick of 1gig ram. so after buying the same type of ram, where should i put it? 1-0-1-0 or 1-1-0-0 to implement the dual channel thingy that u talk about?

lastly, i do not want to spend too much on psu. is it necessary to get a branded psu. and wat is the least watts that i should get in order to accomodate my upgrades (additional 1 g ram, additional 300g harddrive, and x1800gto)? is 450 or 480 watts ok? or mayb even my 400 watts is enough?

 

[Shawcroft]

seems like u are a big fan os nvidia...i, on the other hand, am a big fan os ati...lol...

Lol, funny you should say that, cos the last 3 cards i've bought have been ATI! (9600xt, 9800pro, x1800xt) its just that although the first 2 were in the nadir of nvidia history (i.e. the fx series!), nvidia and ati are pretty much on par nowadays. therefore i just go for the best value card in my price range and don't pay much attention to the make. if anything i would probably have preferred a 7900gt to my x1800xt, but at the time it was about £40 dearer.

Anyway, the 7600GT is on par with the x1800gto at stock settings, with the x850xt being faster in older games but lacking the new features of the lastest cards. i would recommend the 7600GT, but the x1800gto is just as good and i think a better overclocker too. i would recommend staying in the latest range of cards, so maybe forget about the x850xt

As far as power supplies are concerned, the important thing with graphics cards seems to be a decent ampage, with a lot of cards stating a required number of amps on the 12V rail. it's not all about the wattage, so avoid the cheaper PSUs if you want to run a good graphics card. besides "600W" power supplies from cheap brands often don't actually give that much and should be rated a lot lower. the 600W number would have been taken as the sum of many different currents independently, which is not how the computer uses the power supply!

that probably didnt make much sense but basically DO NOT skimp on the PSU, but instead go for a good quality Antec (not sure what other makes are good) and you will not look back!

 

[doolittle]

Given the choice between 7600gt and x1800 I would probably pick the nvidia since it is a good performer for the dollar - so I guess I am an nvidia fanboy as well.

For the dual channel, just use the same color DIMMs for your memory pair and it should enable dual-channel.

 

[ForzaItalia4]

okay, i was just doing some research on the possible g card that i will buy if i go with option 2.

powercolor x850xt 256 mb ddr3 vivo (price $399 singapore dollar, about USD250)

OR

powercolor x1800gto 256mb ddr3 (price $459 singapore dollars, about USD287)

it appears to me that x1800gto is not as good as x1800xt and other x1800 series...http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx1800/x1800gto.html so my question is, is x1800gto better than x850xt?

there u go. after deciding on the g card if i go with option 2, u guys can have a better understanding...so do help decide by giving me constructive comments as to which options to go for.

Alright, listen to me.

the x850 is a great card, pretty cheap too. it has 16 pipes and 520/1080 with a 256-bit interface. It supports shader model 2.0.

the leadtek 7600gt is a great card, pretty cheap too. it has 12 pipes and 560/1400 mhz with a 128-bit interface. it supports shader model 3.0.

the x1800gto is a great, also around $200 US. it has 12 pipes and 500/1000 mhz with a 256-bit interface. supposedly, 4 pipes are unlockable and this card is an overclocking beast. it supports shader odel 3.0.

the 7900gt and x1800xt are both superior cards, with higher clocks and pipelines, so if you can play your games right now to your liking, do that, especially if all you have is a 15 inch monitor. If you really feel the need to upgrade, my advice is get the x1800gto and overclock it.

if you were to get one of these better cards, you could play on your native resolution and turn up your settings for better graphic.

 

[invictus25]

As far as power supplies are concerned, the important thing with graphics cards seems to be a decent ampage, with a lot of cards stating a required number of amps on the 12V rail. it's not all about the wattage, so avoid the cheaper PSUs if you want to run a good graphics card. besides "600W" power supplies from cheap brands often don't actually give that much and should be rated a lot lower. the 600W number would have been taken as the sum of many different currents independently, which is not how the computer uses the power supply!

ok got it, i will make sure to get a decent psu. but from wat i researched, antec psu are kinda expensive. lol...gotta save up even for a stupid psu...dang it... here are my choices for psu... antec 2.0 true power 480 watts ($158 or USD98) OR cooler master 450 watts ($115 or USD72)...does have ever heard of cooler master?

For the dual channel, just use the same color DIMMs for your memory pair and it should enable dual-channel.

ok i get it...that means i should arrange it as 1-0-1-0...thx mate!

the x850 is a great card, pretty cheap too. it has 16 pipes and 520/1080 with a 256-bit interface. It supports shader model 2.0.

the leadtek 7600gt is a great card, pretty cheap too. it has 12 pipes and 560/1400 mhz with a 128-bit interface. it supports shader model 3.0.

the x1800gto is a great, also around $200 US. it has 12 pipes and 500/1000 mhz with a 256-bit interface. supposedly, 4 pipes are unlockable and this card is an overclocking beast. it supports shader odel 3.0.

according to wat u say, it appears like the specs of x1800gto are not as good as x850xt... x1800gto and 7600gt has only 12 pipelines. of course, the shader are better than x850xt. but for x1800gto, the core speed and memory speed are much less than x850xt. looking at the specs for the 3 cards, seems like 7600 gt has the best specs(except for its memory interface of 128 bit). and comparing the 3 cards prices, in singapore, 7600 gt are the cheapest.

- powercolor x850xt 256 mb ddr3 vivo (price $399 singapore dollar, about USD250)
-powercolor x1800gto 256mb ddr3 (price $459 singapore dollars, about USD287)
-leadtek 7600 gt 256 mb ddr3 (price $329 singapore dollars, about USD205)

so which one should i get cos im gonna stay with this card for a long time until i have some more money to upgrade.