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HP sued for deceiving ink printer users (San Jose Mercury ..

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Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 3:18:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
expiration date.

So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
HP inkjet after February 2001.


However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.

If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
of income...

Thomas
February 23, 2005 7:42:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I believe most of us assume that virtually all the ink in the cartridge
is there to be used. This really bothers me because I only use my HP
printer for final prints, thereby raising the question in my mind if I
am being ripped off. I have looked at my documentation and can find no
evidence of what to expect. Nor does my printer, purchased two years
ago, give me any heads up on remaining ink.

This mess is one reason I like Canon printers with individual
transparent easily refillable cartridges. What you see is what you
get.

There's no secret that inflated ink prices are what drives HP's market
share. Nor is there any secret that were this to change HP would see
its profits and prospects head in the direction not only of its low
margin pc business (and deteriorating server one), but Dell. And guess
what. This will happen.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:47:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:18:00 -0800, ThomasH <henrymot@coco.net> wrote:

>
>A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
>court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
>customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
>The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
>expiration date.
>
>So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
>this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
>HP inkjet after February 2001.
>
>
>However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
>test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
>out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
>For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
>and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
>
>If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
>of income...


I can tell you for a fact that HP is not
alone in using such technology.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 11:10:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
> If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
> of income...
>
> Thomas

If you are talking about trial lawyers, maybe. The lawyers will get paid
millions of dollars. The consumers they are supposedly protecting will get a
coupon for ten bucks off on an HP printer.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 11:18:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
>test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
>out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.

Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
Last time I tried that experiment.

So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
I feel.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 12:08:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

ThomasH wrote:
> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
> The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
> expiration date.
>
> So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
> this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
> HP inkjet after February 2001.
>
>
> However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
> test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
> out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
> For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
> and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
>
> If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
> of income...
>
> Thomas
I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever stopped
printing when the ink ran out. The ones I currently have in use warn
you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those totally
specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the pockets of
major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
February 23, 2005 1:01:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Joseph Meehan wrote:

> I would think the issue is how did the represent what they were selling.
>
> For example if they indicated that it would use all the ink in the
> cartridge, then they have a problem


The basis of the complaint seems to be that they did not disclose the
fact that the cartridges would cease functioning after a specific date,
regardless of how much ink was left in them.

Bob
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 2:27:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Hilton wrote:

>>However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
>>test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
>>out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
>
>
> Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
> sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
> obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
> dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
> in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
> and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
> minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
> Last time I tried that experiment.


Same exact experience over here. I suspect
Epson's design only allows for or expects
about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.

Which is infuriating when you consider the
cost per milliliter of most inks.


> So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
> air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
> CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
> not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
> I feel.


Or stick with the "pro" printers that use
large and stationary carts (which almost
amounts to the same thing.) This was my
main reason for choosing the HP Designjet
as my "desktop" printer.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 3:29:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I'm glad to see that something is being done.

For those that may have missed it being discussed here in
rec.photo.digital I kept the following for future reference of how to
reset expiration dates.

My HP932c [purchased Nov.00] is not affected but my next printer would
be.

Google is your friend:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=HP+resetter&meta=

.... try search strings like "Epson resetter" & "smart chip ink
cartridges" <no quotes> to find more.

Hap

---clip---

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:11:10 GMT, "Christopher Muto"
<muto@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

why? the manufacturer would probably tell you that the dates are to
ensure a good experiance with their product through the use of fresh
cartridges. i would tell you that the dates are so that they can sell
you more cartridges. i think all the majors have implemented some sort
of scheme like this... the cartridges have a chip built into them that
can be reset if it is considered 'expired' or if you wanted to remove
and refill it. search the web for "hp resetter" (or for epson, "epson
reset tool") and you will find several... a manual way of reseting the
cartridge/printer to accept the expired or previously used cartridge
is listed at the link below. there are three methods and only one may
work on your particular model, but try them all with particular
attention to the third method suggested which is the easiest,
cheapest, and simplest, but may not apply to your model printer.
it may be more economical to purchase a non-hp cartridge than the
resetter tool and ink refills for a person that does not print very
often.

http://www.inktec-uk.co.uk/57_58_reset.htm


"Agent Orange" <agentorange@arboral-systems.com> wrote in message
news:ieplk053v0lv0qlm08j97eqatblq2hef2t@4ax.com...
> Q: What is the significance of the date printed on the HP ink PACKAGE?
> SINGAPORE MAY 2003
>
> > Relevant Hewlett Packard ink cartridge dates are:
> > - The date HP manufactured the ink cartridge
> > - The date HP prints on the ink cartridge
> > - The date HP prints on the ink cartridge package consumer cardboard box
> > - The date HP printer cartridges are installed in the printer
> > - The date HP first stops printing (due to false "low ink" messages)
> > - The date HP usually stops printing (due to false "expiration"
messages)
> > - The date HP actually stops printing (due to true expiration messages)
>
> Since we now know full well HP inserts up to three false expiration
> dates before the final (true) expiration date, I ask this question:
>
> Q: What is the MEANING of this date printed on the HP package box?
> SINGAPORE MAY 2003
>
> Note 1: Box-print-date is NOT the date the cardboard box was
> actually printed (as a quick look at packages on the
> store shelves shows most, if not all, to be in the future).
>
> Note 2: Box-print-date also can not be the Cartridge_print_date as
> the date printed on the HP ink cartridge is easily proven
> to be different simply by opening a box.
>
> Given that actual re-fill tests proved (in ascending order):
> a) derived_true_manufacture_date
> = 2001/12/10 (cartridge printed date - 2.5 years)
> b) date_cartridge_was_purchased
> === 2002/01/12 (date cartridge was purchased)
> c) date_cartridge_was_installed
> === 2002/01/14 (date cartridge was placed in service)
> d) date_hp_prints_on_the_ink_box
> = MAY 2003 (What is the significance of this date?)
> e) 1st_false_hp_empty_date
> ~= 2004/05/14 (approx. 800 pages of ink printing)
> f) 2nd_false_hp_expiration_date
> = 2004/06/10 (date actually printed on ink tank)
> g) 3rd_false_hp_expiration_date
> = 2004/07/14 (2.5 years of contiguous printer service)
> h) true_hp_ink_expiration_date
> = 2006/06/10 (cartridge printed date + 2 years)
>
> Q: What is the significance of the date HP prints on the
> outside PACKAGE of the cardboard box containing ink tanks?
> MAY 2003 (What is the significance of this date?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:18:00 -0800, ThomasH <henrymot@coco.net> wrote:

>A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
>court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
>customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
>The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
>expiration date.
>
>So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
>this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
>HP inkjet after February 2001.
>
>
>However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
>test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
>out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
>For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
>and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
>
>If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
>of income...
>
>Thomas
February 23, 2005 4:23:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Ron Hunter wrote:
>
> I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever stopped
> printing when the ink ran out.

The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they are
out. In fact the Designjet 750 will refuse to print if the some of the
nozzels are clogged. It will stop in the middle of a print and tell you
to service the cartridge.

> The ones I currently have in use warn
> you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
> even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those totally
> specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the pockets of
> major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.

This is an issue of cartridges that have time stamps in them and
printers that refuse to use them after they have expired, regardless of
ink content.

I read somewhere that HPs stand is the ink might go bad and they don't
want to risk consumers with bad prints due to expired ink.

Bob
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 4:41:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Ron wrote:
> I believe most of us assume that virtually all the ink in the
> cartridge is there to be used.

However what is your expectation of the number of prints each cartridge
will produce? I believe, that while you may assume it will use all the ink,
what you really are looking at is the number of prints per cartridge.

For all I know it is not practical from an engineering point of view to
totally empty the cartridge. Maybe the delivery will become inconsistent or
maybe they can not measure accurately, so they provide more ink that the
cartridge is designed to deliver to assure a consistent result.

There is nothing the consumer hates more than inconsistent results. If
you get 100 prints on one cartridge and then only get 95 on the next
printing the exact same prints, you are going to be mad. I have often
visited manufacturing facilities. The quality control lines of the better
products often reject products that we would normally consider inferior like
not enough beef in the vegetable soup, but they also reject the cans with
too much beef. Beer lines reject bottles that are under-filled but they
also reject over-filled bottles.

> This really bothers me because I only
> use my HP printer for final prints, thereby raising the question in
> my mind if I am being ripped off. I have looked at my documentation
> and can find no evidence of what to expect. Nor does my printer,
> purchased two years ago, give me any heads up on remaining ink.
>
> This mess is one reason I like Canon printers with individual
> transparent easily refillable cartridges. What you see is what you
> get.
>
> There's no secret that inflated ink prices are what drives HP's market
> share. Nor is there any secret that were this to change HP would see
> its profits and prospects head in the direction not only of its low
> margin pc business (and deteriorating server one), but Dell. And
> guess what. This will happen.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 6:31:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I have a lexmark z605, which cartridges also cost an arm and a leg,and I
bought refills.It costs only 15 euro and has 2 20 ml syringes, also 4
refills.It has even gloves!It's made in Korea,BTW.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitri?s
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
? "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
> The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
> expiration date.
>
> So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
> this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
> HP inkjet after February 2001.
>
>
> However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
> test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
> out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
> For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
> and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
>
> If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
> of income...
>
> Thomas
February 23, 2005 7:26:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Strange, all the HP printers I've used keep going until the ink runs out and
any warnings of low ink can be ignored.


"ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
> The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
> expiration date.
>
> So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
> this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
> HP inkjet after February 2001.
>
>
> However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
> test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
> out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
> For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
> and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
>
> If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
> of income...
>
> Thomas
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:01:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The mechanism in the HP is somewhat different form the otehrs you
mention. Most permanent or semi-permanent inkjet printers leave some
ink in the cartridge when it reads empty to prevent either head damage
(in the case of the Canon, or air locks and head drying out internally
for the Epson.

However, some HP printers have a expiration date programmed into them,
so the printer simply stops when tat date is reached. It is apparently
shown on the box, and I believe HP will exchange cartridges if you have
new ones that are expired. Their claim is that their inks become
unstable in some manner after a certain date and can clog or damage the
printer in some manner.

Art

ThomasH wrote:

> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
> The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
> expiration date.
>
> So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
> this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
> HP inkjet after February 2001.
>
>
> However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
> test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
> out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
> For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
> and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
>
> If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
> of income...
>
> Thomas
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:27:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

rafeb wrote:
> Bill Hilton wrote:
>
>>> However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
>>> test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
>>> out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
>>
>>
>> Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
>> sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
>> obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran
>> totally dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put
>> a new cart in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the
>> ink in the cart and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen
>> cleaning cycles and 30 minutes of futzing around to finally get the
>> ink back to the head. Last time I tried that experiment.
>
>
> Same exact experience over here. I suspect
> Epson's design only allows for or expects
> about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.
>
> Which is infuriating when you consider the
> cost per milliliter of most inks.

Your cost anyway. I suspect the cost to HP is much much less.

>
>
>> So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid
>> getting air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should
>> switch to the CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet,
>> not whether or not there's some ink left in the tank when the
>> warning light comes on, I feel.
>
>
> Or stick with the "pro" printers that use
> large and stationary carts (which almost
> amounts to the same thing.) This was my
> main reason for choosing the HP Designjet
> as my "desktop" printer.
>
>
> rafe b.
> http://www.terrapinphoto.com

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:29:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.

The HP carts I use have a marked capacity on them - 42 mL. This capacity is
also marked on the packaging.

It would be interesting to know if the system flags then as empty _before_
42mL of ink has been used? If it does then that sure sounds like there is a
case to answer.

If it prints all 42mL before flagging empty then there is no case to answer.
Any ink left in the cart is free.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:37:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.


Reuters had the story here...

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=tec...
February 23, 2005 8:37:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Greg Coulter wrote:

> Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
> with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
> product produced in the last five years.

I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:37:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"bob" <not@not.not> wrote in message news:g85Td.29311$Rl5.18875@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Greg Coulter wrote:
>
> > Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
> > with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
> > product produced in the last five years.
>
> I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
> the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.

Did I mention they don't even make their own printers any more?
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:38:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Greg Coulter wrote:

> "bob" <not@not.not> wrote in message news:g85Td.29311$Rl5.18875@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
>>Greg Coulter wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
>>>with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
>>>product produced in the last five years.
>>
>>I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
>>the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.
>
>
> Did I mention they don't even make their own printers any more?


Why would that surprise us? Neither do
any of their competitors (Brand C, Brand E
and brand L.)


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 8:49:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> Same exact experience over here. I suspect
> Epson's design only allows for or expects
> about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.

Most of the adverts for HP carts (eg @ Amazon) say things like "30mL useable
ink". Thats a very clear statement of what the cart can deliver.

As you say the issue is not how much ink is left in the cart but how much
you can get out (eg compared to the stated or advertised value). If the
packaging or advert says "30mL useable ink" but shuts off before that amount
has been used then it sounds like there is a case to answer. As long as 30mL
is useable it doesn't matter how much is left in the cart.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:14:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

CWatters wrote:
> "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
> news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
>>A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
>>court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
>>customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
>
>
>
> Reuters had the story here...
>
> http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=tec...
>
>

Gosh, The Inquirer had the story back in 2003, with more technical details:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9220
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:43:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

C J Campbell wrote:
> "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
> news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
>>If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
>>of income...
>>
>>Thomas
>
>
> If you are talking about trial lawyers, maybe. The lawyers will get paid
> millions of dollars. The consumers they are supposedly protecting will get a
> coupon for ten bucks off on an HP printer.
>
>
Quite right. The laws on class action suits REALLY need work.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:45:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Hilton wrote:
>>However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
>>test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
>>out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
>
>
> Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
> sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
> obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
> dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
> in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
> and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
> minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
> Last time I tried that experiment.
>
> So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
> air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
> CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
> not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
> I feel.
>

Another factor some people forget is that if you print a lot of one of
the colors of ink in a cartridge, it may well run out of one color,
rendering it pretty nearly useless, long before the other colors are
out. I have to remind my wife NOT to keep using yellow backgrounds on
all her greeting cards.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:49:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Arthur Entlich wrote:
> The mechanism in the HP is somewhat different form the otehrs you
> mention. Most permanent or semi-permanent inkjet printers leave some
> ink in the cartridge when it reads empty to prevent either head damage
> (in the case of the Canon, or air locks and head drying out internally
> for the Epson.
>
> However, some HP printers have a expiration date programmed into them,
> so the printer simply stops when tat date is reached. It is apparently
> shown on the box, and I believe HP will exchange cartridges if you have
> new ones that are expired. Their claim is that their inks become
> unstable in some manner after a certain date and can clog or damage the
> printer in some manner.
>
> Art

This is evidently not true for the carts I use as I often stock up on
them at Sam's Wholesale Club so that I always have a new one on hand. I
have never run into the problem you refer to. Maybe that is because I
use cheap printers.... Grin.



--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:55:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

bob wrote:
> Greg Coulter wrote:
>
>> Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
>> with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
>> product produced in the last five years.
>
>
> I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
> the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.
I think what we are seeing is a 'disgruntled employee'. I usually take
their ravings for what they cost me to obtain.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:55:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message news:zBaTd.19482$Z53.7866@fe07.lga...
> bob wrote:
> > Greg Coulter wrote:
> >
> >> Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
> >> with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
> >> product produced in the last five years.
> >
> >
> > I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
> > the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.
> I think what we are seeing is a 'disgruntled employee'. I usually take
> their ravings for what they cost me to obtain.

Actually more disgusted than disgruntled, Ron. If you could
find some possible way of taking your head out of your ass
long enough to ask others (preferably HP employees) you'd
know every word of what I said is true.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 10:58:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

bob wrote:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>
>>
>> I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever
>> stopped printing when the ink ran out.
>
>
> The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they are
> out. In fact the Designjet 750 will refuse to print if the some of the
> nozzels are clogged. It will stop in the middle of a print and tell you
> to service the cartridge.
>
> > The ones I currently have in use warn
>
>> you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
>> even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those
>> totally specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the
>> pockets of major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.
>
>
> This is an issue of cartridges that have time stamps in them and
> printers that refuse to use them after they have expired, regardless of
> ink content.
>
> I read somewhere that HPs stand is the ink might go bad and they don't
> want to risk consumers with bad prints due to expired ink.
>
> Bob
>
It seems, rather obviously, to be a scheme to prevent refilling with non
HP inks. It costs the company a lot of money to handle consumer
complaints traceable to such refills. Not to mention that it cuts into
their profits. Both my printers use HP 56 and 57 carts, and neither has
ever stopped printing when the ink runs out, let alone BEFORE it runs out.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 11:40:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

bob wrote:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>
>>
>> I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever
>> stopped printing when the ink ran out.
>
>
> The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they are
> out.

My deskjet 930c will continue to print with an empty cartridge, as did
my previous dekjet. Print is a bit faint though:-)

Tony M
February 23, 2005 11:40:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Tony M wrote:
> bob wrote:
>
>> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever
>>> stopped printing when the ink ran out.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they
>> are out.
>
>
> My deskjet 930c will continue to print with an empty cartridge, as did
> my previous dekjet. Print is a bit faint though:-)
>
> Tony M

My bad on the deskjets. I was confusing the behavior for missing
cartridges with empty ones! It's been many years since we actually used
our small fleet of 1200c printers.

The designjet is new to us though, and it does work as I described. I've
taken to weighing the cartridges to determine how much ink is in them.
It works pretty well. Weigh them full and empty, and then you can tell
how much ink each print uses (and thus estimate cost). It makes a lot
more sense when you understand that this is a 36" printer making E sized
prints... It also helps to know if a cartridge is empty or clogged. I
very consistently get 45g of ink out of them.

Bob
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 23, 2005 11:40:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Tony M wrote:
> bob wrote:
>
>> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever
>>> stopped printing when the ink ran out.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they
>> are out.
>
>
> My deskjet 930c will continue to print with an empty cartridge, as did
> my previous dekjet. Print is a bit faint though:-)
>
> Tony M
Yes, like some cash register receipts I have seen, right? Grin.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 12:25:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

ThomasH <henrymot@coco.net> wrote:

> A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
> The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
> expiration date.

In a similar case against Epson, filed by a Dutch consumer organization
last year, the consumer org was forced to rectify its complaints because
Epson convinced the court that the residual ink in the cartridges was
necessary to keep the nozzle holes free from clogging.

Ton
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 4:23:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Greg Coulter wrote:
> "Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message news:zBaTd.19482$Z53.7866@fe07.lga...
>
>>bob wrote:
>>
>>>Greg Coulter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
>>>>with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
>>>>product produced in the last five years.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
>>>the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.
>>
>>I think what we are seeing is a 'disgruntled employee'. I usually take
>>their ravings for what they cost me to obtain.
>
>
> Actually more disgusted than disgruntled, Ron. If you could
> find some possible way of taking your head out of your ass
> long enough to ask others (preferably HP employees) you'd
> know every word of what I said is true.
>
>
Perhaps it is, on the other hand, we have ONLY one data point by which
to make a decision on the issue. I would prefer more information, and
from more people. Some employees of very fine companies feel the same
as you do.

--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 4:50:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message news:421D951F.30064875@comcast.net...
> Greg Coulter wrote:
> >
> [...]
> >
> > Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
> > with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
> > product produced in the last five years. Carly Fiorina was hired to
> > gut the company, and that's precisely what she did. Their business
>
> :-) Apparently nobody really likes or values her and
> all voice joy and satisfaction now that she is gone...
>
> I doubt however that her agenda was to 'gut the company',
> she did however destroyed the famous HP culture.

That's exactly what I meant by "gut". And to be more accurate,
Carly laid off 40% of HP's workforce (20,000 employees with
an average length of service of 20 years), sent most of these jobs
overseas "in order to keep the company profitable", and then
proceeded to take over $15 million in bonuses for herself.

But obviously one person cannot gut a company the size of HP.
All of Carly's actions were done with the blessings of HP's
board of directors -- which is why I said to not expect any real
changes in the company even though she's no longer there.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 7:15:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Greg Coulter" <nospam@privacy.net> wrote in message news:384rusF5k5fnuU1@individual.net...
> "Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message news:zBaTd.19482$Z53.7866@fe07.lga...
> > I think what we are seeing is a 'disgruntled employee'. I usually take
> > their ravings for what they cost me to obtain.
>
> Actually more disgusted than disgruntled, Ron. If you could
> find some possible way of taking your head out of your ass
> long enough to ask others (preferably HP employees) you'd
> know every word of what I said is true.

I don't doubt it. HPQ's stock price rose 15% within minutes
of the announcing of Carly's departure.

Dave
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 7:15:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David W. wrote:
> "Greg Coulter" <nospam@privacy.net> wrote in message news:384rusF5k5fnuU1@individual.net...
>
>>"Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message news:zBaTd.19482$Z53.7866@fe07.lga...
>>
>>>I think what we are seeing is a 'disgruntled employee'. I usually take
>>>their ravings for what they cost me to obtain.
>>
>>Actually more disgusted than disgruntled, Ron. If you could
>>find some possible way of taking your head out of your ass
>>long enough to ask others (preferably HP employees) you'd
>>know every word of what I said is true.
>
>
> I don't doubt it. HPQ's stock price rose 15% within minutes
> of the announcing of Carly's departure.
>
> Dave

Carly's reign of terror was obvious for quite some time. At the
2002 shareholder's meeting, Walter Hewlett was given a standing
ovation, and Carly was booed. 'Course, the attendees were mainly
individual investors, not the big institutions that got bought off
with lucrative investment banking deals, and outright bribes.
Two million paid to Deutsche Bank for "market intelligence" comes
to mind:

http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2003-100.htm

Think of it. Martha's in the slammer, and Carly's walking around
scott free with a few hundred million in shareholder's money. Now
the CFO that had his hands really dirty in that deal is the acting
CEO. Golly gee, wonder if he's going to fire himself?

Back to the inkjet cartridges, can someone explain why the region coded
cartridges have almost escaped notice? Seems like a heck of a bigger
deal, at least to the Europeans, than a silly little time bomb that goes
off after 30 months:

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB11059323803162...
February 24, 2005 11:43:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <Ee6dnWjjI5A-U4DfRVn-pg@comcast.com>, kinsell@poboxyz.com says...
> Yeah, it is a pain. I guess in Britain, players that ignore the
> regionalization are quite common.
>
> Didn't you just love that HP exec claiming that it wasn't being done
> to make more money? Wouldn't want to have Europeans smuggling gray market
> goods into their countries, would we?
>
> Found an old article that's somewhat related. Can anyone comment on
> whether this law actually took effect? Doesn't seem like it:
>
>
>


There is absolutely NO POINT in an expiration date that cripples a cartridge
that includes the print-head.

The stupid thing will either PRINT, if the ink is still liquid, or NOT PRINT,
if the ink has dried up.

There is only one logical reason for the printer to stop on a given date, and
THAT is so HP can sell you another cartridge.

On some of HPs printers, the print-head and ink cartridge are seperate, so
what did they (HP) do??? they built an expiry date into BOTH the ink and the
head. (I think it was the 2000C where I first saw this.) No reason for this
other than to sell print heads...

HP deserves all the bad press that this lawsuit will generate.. Do I agree
with the basic philosophy behind the lawsuit? No, its stupid in the extreme
to be bringing suit about something as silly as this. Much bigger advantages
are gained by simply purchasing a printer from a company that dosen't screw
you to the wall for ink. Vote with your WALLET not your Lawyer..

Do I own any HP printers??? Yes (though I NEVER use it for photos) I have a
nice little 3 in 1 that I use for a copier, its not even hooked to a
computer. It doesn't generate the Ozone that comes out of a regular copier,
and I only copy a few documents every month.
--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 12:16:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David Kinsell" <kinsell@poboxyz.com> wrote in message
news:49GdncmDFqaxpYDfRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
> CWatters wrote:
> > "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
> > news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
> >
> >>A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
> >>court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
> >>customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
> >
> >
> >
> > Reuters had the story here...
> >
> >
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=tec...
> >
> >
>
> Gosh, The Inquirer had the story back in 2003, with more technical
details:

Did he also file against HP?
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 1:31:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Greg Coulter wrote:
> "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message news:421D951F.30064875@comcast.net...
>
>>Greg Coulter wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
>>>with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
>>>product produced in the last five years. Carly Fiorina was hired to
>>>gut the company, and that's precisely what she did. Their business
>>
>>:-) Apparently nobody really likes or values her and
>>all voice joy and satisfaction now that she is gone...
>>
>>I doubt however that her agenda was to 'gut the company',
>>she did however destroyed the famous HP culture.
>
>
> That's exactly what I meant by "gut". And to be more accurate,
> Carly laid off 40% of HP's workforce (20,000 employees with
> an average length of service of 20 years), sent most of these jobs
> overseas "in order to keep the company profitable", and then
> proceeded to take over $15 million in bonuses for herself.
>
> But obviously one person cannot gut a company the size of HP.
> All of Carly's actions were done with the blessings of HP's
> board of directors -- which is why I said to not expect any real
> changes in the company even though she's no longer there.
>
>
Unfortunately, what you have observed is the norm in large businesses,
NOT something rare. The company I last worked for had to pay the old
CEO who bankrupted the company, 7 million dollars to get rid of him. I
got 4 weeks pay after 17 years, and waited 17 months for it!

At least HP is still in business, which is more than I can say for
EITHER of the companies I worked for, one for 18.5 years, and the other
for 17 years. You have nothing to complain about.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 2:11:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:45:45 -0600, Ron Hunter
<rphunter@charter.net> wrote:

>Another factor some people forget is that if you print a lot of one of
>the colors of ink in a cartridge, it may well run out of one color,
>rendering it pretty nearly useless, long before the other colors are
>out. I have to remind my wife NOT to keep using yellow backgrounds on
>all her greeting cards.

Ron,

that's a good reason to have a printer with separate ink tanks
for the four or more colors.

I reported on my new Canon PIXMA iP3000 recently, which has four
separate ink tanks, and I can now say that the printer still
works perfectly. Recommended.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 2:11:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Hans-Georg Michna wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:45:45 -0600, Ron Hunter
> <rphunter@charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Another factor some people forget is that if you print a lot of one of
>>the colors of ink in a cartridge, it may well run out of one color,
>>rendering it pretty nearly useless, long before the other colors are
>>out. I have to remind my wife NOT to keep using yellow backgrounds on
>>all her greeting cards.
>
>
> Ron,
>
> that's a good reason to have a printer with separate ink tanks
> for the four or more colors.
>
> I reported on my new Canon PIXMA iP3000 recently, which has four
> separate ink tanks, and I can now say that the printer still
> works perfectly. Recommended.
>
> Hans-Georg
>
Yes, there is an advantage to having separate tanks. There are also
some disadvantages, such as cost, air in the lines, ink drying out, and
size of the printer. For the amount of printing I do, maybe 5 pages a
month, the cartridges aren't a problem.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 2:11:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:26:32 -0000, "SteveB"
<sbrads@nildramDOTcoDOTuk> wrote:

>Strange, all the HP printers I've used keep going until the ink runs out and
>any warnings of low ink can be ignored.

Steve,

I think that's pretty bad. My printer is used by other people
who are not at the printer to check print quality. They have to
rely on the low ink warning and the low ink stop feature of the
printer, which, in my case (Canon PIXMA iP3000) works perfectly
well. The printer halts before the ink runs out totally, and
somebody can walk up to it and replace the ink tank. The warning
is nicely displayed on the remote source computer.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 2:11:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Hans-Georg Michna wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:26:32 -0000, "SteveB"
> <sbrads@nildramDOTcoDOTuk> wrote:
>
>
>>Strange, all the HP printers I've used keep going until the ink runs out and
>>any warnings of low ink can be ignored.
>
>
> Steve,
>
> I think that's pretty bad. My printer is used by other people
> who are not at the printer to check print quality. They have to
> rely on the low ink warning and the low ink stop feature of the
> printer, which, in my case (Canon PIXMA iP3000) works perfectly
> well. The printer halts before the ink runs out totally, and
> somebody can walk up to it and replace the ink tank. The warning
> is nicely displayed on the remote source computer.
>
> Hans-Georg
>
My printer cost $125. How much did yours cost? Might have something to
do with the features....



--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 3:45:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Again, the issue is the expiry date on the cartridges. If you continue
to try to use a cartridge that has expired by date, it will not work and
you are deprived of the ink stil in it. In fact, as I understand it,
you could install a full OEM cartridge and find it would not work at all
because it was beyond the date "stamped" into it.

Art

CWatters wrote:

> "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
> news:421C3C38.C2EA68CB@comcast.net...
>
>>A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
>>court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
>>customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
>
>
> The HP carts I use have a marked capacity on them - 42 mL. This capacity is
> also marked on the packaging.
>
> It would be interesting to know if the system flags then as empty _before_
> 42mL of ink has been used? If it does then that sure sounds like there is a
> case to answer.
>
> If it prints all 42mL before flagging empty then there is no case to answer.
> Any ink left in the cart is free.
>
>
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 3:45:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Again, the issue is the expiry date on the cartridges. If you continue
> to try to use a cartridge that has expired by date, it will not work and
> you are deprived of the ink stil in it. In fact, as I understand it,
> you could install a full OEM cartridge and find it would not work at all
> because it was beyond the date "stamped" into it.
>
> Art
>

This is the first I have heard of such a scheme. I can think, off-hand,
of several ways around the problem, and would use one of them if such a
problem came up. I would also let the company know of my displeasure,
loudly. However, I have yet to encounter any such thing on any of the
HP printers I have owned (5).



--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 3:45:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Arthur Entlich" <artistic@telus.net> wrote in message
news:D %jTd.4635$38.4455@clgrps12...
> Again, the issue is the expiry date on the cartridges. If you continue to
> try to use a cartridge that has expired by date, it will not work and you are
> deprived of the ink stil in it. In fact, as I understand it, you could
> install a full OEM cartridge and find it would not work at all because it was
> beyond the date "stamped" into it.

But this is not a problem for this user, as he is using a #45 cartridge. The
#45 cartridge does not have any expiration date readable by the printer or the
computer. No DeskJet, Photosmart, or PSC all-in-one printers have any built in
expiration.

The printers that enforce a 4.5 year expiration date are those that have
separate ink and printhead designs.

- Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 9:46:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:34:21 -0600, Ron Hunter
<rphunter@charter.net> wrote:

>Yes, there is an advantage to having separate tanks. There are also
>some disadvantages, such as cost, air in the lines, ink drying out, and
>size of the printer. For the amount of printing I do, maybe 5 pages a
>month, the cartridges aren't a problem.

Ron,

oh, sure. But cost should be the advantage.

Air in the lines has never been a problem in any of the Canon
printers I owned. They seem to have solved that problem. I have
also never seen any dry ink, even if I don't use the printer for
weeks.

By the way, I should have mentioned that for higher quality
photo printing one should consider the higher quality photo
printers in the Canon PIXMA line. Mine is the four inks iP3000,
but the iP4000 already has additional photo ink.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 24, 2005 10:08:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Arthur Entlich" <artistic@telus.net> wrote in message
news:D %jTd.4635$38.4455@clgrps12...
> Again, the issue is the expiry date on the cartridges. If you continue
> to try to use a cartridge that has expired by date, it will not work

Haven't HP said they will replace any that expire before they run out of
ink? I thought I read that somewhere?. Presumably if it's half full when the
date expires you get a nice new full one.
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 25, 2005 3:08:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I no longer have HP's printer, but back many years ago, refilling ink
is a very comment practise.

If the printer refuse to print while the catridge has plenty of fresh
ink (assume refilled), just because the time stamp is expired, I don't
think this is compliant to HP's internal handbook "The proper business
conduct". (To be precise, the Pre-CF version).

bob wrote:

> This is an issue of cartridges that have time stamps in them and
> printers that refuse to use them after they have expired, regardless
of
> ink content.
>
> I read somewhere that HPs stand is the ink might go bad and they
don't
> want to risk consumers with bad prints due to expired ink.
>
> Bob
Anonymous
a b α HP
February 25, 2005 5:09:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Kibo informs me that "Greg Coulter" <nospam@privacy.net> stated that:

>"bob" <not@not.not> wrote in message news:g85Td.29311$Rl5.18875@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>> Greg Coulter wrote:
>>
>> > Regardless of the merit of this lawsuit, as an HP insider I can tell you
>> > with certainty one should stay at least 10 feet away from _any_ HP
>> > product produced in the last five years.
>>
>> I'm rather impressed by the 4650 Color Laserjet. At least so far. And
>> the Laserjet 1000 seems to be great, too.
>
>Did I mention they don't even make their own printers any more?

Dunno about the more recent models, but the original HP LaserJets were
Canons, with HP ROMs & an HP badge on the front.

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