BTX Future?

[1Tanker]

Hope this hasn't been discussed already. It just occured to me, while looking

at a BTX case. Since Intel is basically in the throws of doing a 180, with

Conroe/Merom/Woodcrest, what do you think will become of the BTX

standard...that Intel came up with to deal with their ever increasing thermal

output. Judging by what i've seen on XS forums, the new architecture runs

very cool. BTX seems like overkill now. Any thoughts?


PS. Not wanting this to turn into an Intel vs AMD debate, please.

 

[AshyN]

Major companies like Dell HP and IBM have used BTX design and its proven to be very much sucessful when it comes to heat management. In terms of design too, its easier to handle and install devices compared to ATX.

 

[FITCamaro]

Its a great design just unfortunately never picked up widespread acceptance in the DIY crowd. Dunno why. I think they'll probably keep using it because it means they don't need a dedicated CPU cooling fan.

 

[M_with_one_M]

I have a P4 now and I would really need better cooling.

Even though Conroe don't get as hot as the P4 there is no reason why we wouldn't want better cooling. I for one wouldn't mind getting rid of a few fans if it was possible.

The question is if there are any drawbacks in useing btx; I havn't heard of any.

 

[unbiased4u]

AMD's never going to get into this right? Will they? The closed thing to BTX is an inverted ATX case. Not that the AMD's have cooling problems anyway

I think BTX is totally cool, it might be my next upgrade when I switch to Conroe

 

[techtre2003]

Intel is still backing BTX 100%. I have heard this directly from Intel. If you look, more and more of their SKUs are BTX. Yes Core 2 Duo will be MUCH cooler, but you can never get too cool! A big focus is going to be quiet PCs since they are really pushing the "digital home". No one wants a PC with loud fans running in their living room. Also, BTX makes a small form factor possible using the micro and pico BTX boards.

 

[pengwin]

i dont like BTX, the mobo is weird and the CPU is in th emiddle-iush area of th emobo, my dad got a dell optiplex for his work and it came in BTX form. not a fan

 

[1Tanker]

Intel is still backing BTX 100%. I have heard this directly from Intel. If you look, more and more of their SKUs are BTX. Yes Core 2 Duo will be MUCH cooler, but you can never get too cool! A big focus is going to be quiet PCs since they are really pushing the "digital home". No one wants a PC with loud fans running in their living room. Also, BTX makes a small form factor possible using the micro and pico BTX boards.

Are they going to continue to "Back" BTX, even though they started the

idea. Yes, you can never get too cool, but BTX cases must be more

expensive to design/build, so what's to be gained by the case Mfgrs if it's

not such a "necessity" now? I have to wonder if Intel will just sort of just

stop pushing for this. Even though it doesn't come out of their pockets, it

could still slightly raise the price of Intel systems from OEM's?

 

[306maxi]

Intel is still backing BTX 100%. I have heard this directly from Intel. If you look, more and more of their SKUs are BTX. Yes Core 2 Duo will be MUCH cooler, but you can never get too cool! A big focus is going to be quiet PCs since they are really pushing the "digital home". No one wants a PC with loud fans running in their living room. Also, BTX makes a small form factor possible using the micro and pico BTX boards.

Are they going to continue to "Back" BTX, even though they started the

idea. Yes, you can never get too cool, but BTX cases must be more

expensive to design/build, so what's to be gained by the case Mfgrs if it's

not such a "necessity" now? I have to wonder if Intel will just sort of just

stop pushing for this. Even though it doesn't come out of their pockets, it

could still slightly raise the price of Intel systems from OEM's?

I don't think BTX cases are really more expensive to produce. Most of the cost involved is to do with retooling machines to produce BTX cases when they've been devoted to producing ATX cases for so long.

From what I've seen at work of IBM and HP BTX cases there's nothing wrong with them and they run cooler and quieter than most PC's built on the ATX standard

My next PC will probably be ATX and will have a P180 case but that's because no one has yet built a case that's so cleverly designed and quiet in BTX

 

[techtre2003]

BTX is a new standard and like any new standard it takes time to develop. Yes it is slightly more expensive now to buy a BTX MB and processor but newer technology is always going to be a little more expensive. Intel was actually entertaining the idea of going totally BTX, but decided to take a more gradual approach. This is not something that is going away. The BTX form factor, like I said before, will make way for smaller and smaller PCs in the future. This is what Intel is pushing for.

 

[wun911]

How will BTX keep the CPU cool?

Please list some of the benefits or give links to the benefits of BTX

Will a BTX case beat a lian li pc V 1000?

 

[Crashman]

BTX doesn't necessarily improve cooling, rather, it simply forces companies to put a CPU cooling tunnel from the front to the rear of the case. This can be done in ATX, but it's mandatory for BTX.

Intel didn't need to flip the board around, they simply did that to prevent compatibility. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater they used to call this. Maybe they should have come out with a new ATX case revision instead, mandating the cooling tunnel to comply with "rev x.x", but instead they decided it was time to screw around with the industry.

 

[306maxi]

BTX doesn't necessarily improve cooling, rather, it simply forces companies to put a CPU cooling tunnel from the front to the rear of the case. This can be done in ATX, but it's mandatory for BTX.

Intel didn't need to flip the board around, they simply did that to prevent compatibility. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater they used to call this. Maybe they should have come out with a new ATX case revision instead, mandating the cooling tunnel to comply with "rev x.x", but instead they decided it was time to screw around with the industry.

Not really. The reason why it's been done like this is so that the first thing fresh air does when it gets into the case is cool the CPU. If it didn't have this you'd have to have a longer tunnel or a more powerful CPU fan to provide the same level of cooling and this is the most quiet and efficient way to do it

 

[Crashman]

What I said is 100% correct, you can have a straight tunnel go from the front of the case, over the CPU, and out the back, with ATX. It's been done.

Intel could have simply mandated the tunnel for a new ATX case revision, and produced ATX x.x boards with the same requirement.

 

[306maxi]

Not really. Yes it has been done but it's just a bandaid solution. the truth is ATX doesn't handle modern CPU's and GPU's as well as BTX can

Most cases don't have anywhere on the front of the case for air to be piped straight from you've also got the memory in the way and a lot of things like hard drives depending on the case you have.

Best off to optimise the layout for cooling and give it a different name and make it a brand new standard rather than having people buying stuff and asking why it doesn't work when both the products they're trying to put together are both ATX. For instance if your PSU dies and you want to replace the whole case because a PSU costs more than a case you aren't going to go out and buy a BTX case for an ATX system are you? And if you do the retailer can just tell you to go and take a hike rather easily.

Is it not good sometimes to just start afresh and not be left with any of the problems or liabilities of an old standard?

 

[chuckshissle]

I don't it would matter in future since hardwares is going to be smaller and smaller and produces less heat. So it wouldn't matter what kind of design to implement heat dissipation. Maybe 5 years from now everything would cooled using just a heatsink, it would be dead quite and and less heat and very effecient rig.

But talking about BTX, yes it's a great design. My other PC Gateway 845GM is an Intel BTX and believe it or not it uses only 2 120mm fans. One in front cool the hd and the giant cpu heatsink while the other exhaust the heat at the back. It's sports a Pentium D 820 which runs hot buy the way, but with it, it's fairly cool and very quite as well. It has 350watts psu but I got a soundcard and 7800GT on it and runs very stable with no problem. So I'm very impressed with the BTX design, but one thing is that it is very limited to upgrades.

 

[Crashman]

No, I'm being totally real here. "Most Cases" doesn't apply to this, since a new case revision would mean all the "ATX x.x" cases would have the tunnel.

What this would mean is thus: You wouldn't be locked in. You could use the ATX x.x board with an old case and old-style cooler, or you could use the ATX x.x board with a new case and a new style cooler. Also, you could use an ATX x.x case with an old board and and old style cooler, or you could use the ATX x.x case with the new board and either type of cooler.

Cross-compatibility. It means the only part being restricted would be the new cooler, everything would be compatible with everything.

You seem stuck in a track laid by Intel, let me open your mind to a world of possibilities.

 

[306maxi]

You seem stuck in a track laid by Intel, let me open your mind to a world of possibilities.

Sounds like marketing speak to me

Ok I'm more than willing to listen It's just that from the BTX systems I've seen at work they just look better than the ATX systems I've seen with windtunnels. Some HP workstations and low end servers have a sort of windtunnel that works well but is rather noisy even at low speed.

 

[1Tanker]

It's just that from the BTX systems I've seen at work they just look better than the ATX systems I've seen with windtunnels. Some HP workstations and low end servers have a sort of windtunnel that works well but is rather noisy even at low speed.[/quote]

I don't think too many people would disagree that BTX is a good setup.

Had it been introduced, instead of ATX, it would have been the better

standard. "But", that's not how things transpired, and nobody likes it

when one company flexes a little muscle, to change things to their way

of thinking(especially when we have no say, and it generally entails

more monetary outlay).

 

[306maxi]

It may seem like Intel flexing it's muscles and to a certain extent it was. But there have been cases (no pun intended) in the past where change has been forced upon people for the good of people and people have in the end liked it

As I said before my next PC will probably be in an ATX case unless someone makes a BTX case as lovely and sexy as the P180

 

[Crashman]

There's where you're losing your mind, er, failing to access the situation: Full-Sized BTX boards resemble ATX boards, flipped over. If BTX wind tunnels are better than ATX wind tunnels, it's simply because the ATX wind tunnels were using an inferior design.

You see, Intel could have incorporated the SAME wind tunnel into ATX, and called it ATX version "whatever". Such a design would have the following features:

1.) the same fanless CPU cooler now being used in BTX could have been applied to a new ATX standard instead.
2.) An old board would fit into the new ATX case, but require the use of an old-style cooler.
3.) A new board would fit into the old ATX case, but require an old-style cooler
4.) A new board would fit into the new style case, and could use either the new or old style cooler.

So you see, Intel could have revised the ATX case to use the same wind tunnel as found in the BTX case, and there would be enough cross-compatibility to make older parts and newer parts work together. Bonus, building a system with all newer parts would have the same cooling features you like so much in BTX.

 

[techtre2003]

Why is it so bad that Intel is trying to go to a new, better standard? We went from AT to ATX. We went from AGP to PCI-E. Change is good. No one is forcing you to switch right now to BTX. That is why Intel is making a Gradual change. Maybe years down the road when you have upgraded everything already and decide to do a new build everything will be BTX but who cares? Yes it is a change, yes it seems inconvienient to some people at the begining, but yes it is a better design.

 

[FITCamaro]

I'd upgrade to BTX in my next rig if I could but the problem is there aren't many AMD BTX motherboards. Its all Intel stuff for the most part. Puts a nice huge, quiet 120mm fan right in front of the CPU heatsink to avoid needing a dedicated fan for it. Only problem with that is then where do the hard drives go and still have a fan blowing over them.

This is why I'm getting a Lian Li V1100B Plus II case which is a reversed ATX design.

 

[Crashman]

Either you don't understand anything or you're stupid. That's like saying a 19.1" wheel is better than a 19" wheel and changing all the tire sizes, it just doesn't make sense.

They didn't need to make the parts incompatible in order to implement their new cooling method. They did make the parts incompatible for no engineering reason whatsoever. It's all marketing, zero engineering behind the decision.

No more making excuses, I won't accept your excuses. Change is never inherently good, there has to be a reason for it. And it wasn't necessary to make the parts incompatible simply to add a cooling feature.

I don't know why anyone would make excuses like you have. It's completely illogical. It's as bad as MS saying "We're saving the computer industry by making an OS that has so much overhead, people will be forced to upgrade". All spin.

 

[sojrner]

there is more here than "no engineering reason whatsoever". BTX is not just about cooling w/ a tunnel. The traces within the pcb of the mobo are shortened and re-routed to achieve better latency and less interference. (especially for onboard sound) Shorter/less traces eventually equates to a cheaper/easier to manufacture mobo. theoretically if the standard was widely adopted then it would be cheaper to buy then ATX all else being equal. Of course I really doubt prices would ever come down once the consumer base was comfortable w/ paying $x.

I am actually in agreement w/ you on change, and also agree that it is probably more for marketing reasons than anything that it is incompatable. btx could just as easily be compatable w/ atx, even w/ shorter traces and other things. But what's a girl to do gidge?

One thing about the tunnel on atx is the layout of the ram sticks. Ram on btx is parallell w/ the tunnel, while atx is perpendicular. It is small, but it does hamper airflow on an atx tunnel. Many "reverse" atx cases have the tunnel, and it is good for sure... just btx is prb better.

Having said all that, and knowing that Dell has always had proprietary "atx looking" boards so a switch to btx for them was a no-brainer, AMD stated a while back that they had no reasons to push for btx. This of course makes it a total AMD vs Intel thing, and so I personally think that it may evolve into totally different form factors based on companies. ATI and Nv already are making you buy their whole platform to lock you into upgrades w/ them only, It would not surprise me to see AMD and Intel do the same w/ entire systems! lol :roll:

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