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Zalman CNPS9500AT Heat Pipes

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May 17, 2006 10:43:28 AM

Several weeks back there was a post regarding the Zalman heat pipes. The individual wanted to know if the pipes were filled with a liquid and if it was important to mount the cooler in an upright position. I also became curious, especially concerning the mounting position, since my cooler is in a tower and the cooler is not mounted vertically.

I e-mailed Zalman and here is their response (hope this is helpful to others also):

Dear Valued Customer,

We would like to first thank you for your use of our CNPS9500 AT.

For the answers to your questions, please refer to the following:

1) The heat pipes of ZALMAN coolers are indeed filled with coolant. However, we cannot disclose the exact information about the coolant.

2) It is also true that the CNPS9500 AT will function better if it is positioned in an upright position (vertically with the base down) than when it is positioned horizontally. However, the difference in thermal performance resulting from the orientation (vertical/horizontal) of the cooler is minimal, and we believe that it will hardly make a difference even if you lay the tower on its side.

Therefore you do not have to lay down the tower on its side because it will not make great difference in thermal performance by doing so.

Hope this answer your question, and please feel free to ask any further questions.

Best Regards,

Support/ZALMAN
May 21, 2006 11:49:07 AM

most heat pipes now have wicks that allow for circulation regardless of orientation. (That sounds like a policical campaign speech)
May 21, 2006 1:50:41 PM

Hmp, that's actually kinda intersting.
Related resources
May 22, 2006 4:37:53 AM

Quote:
I e-mailed Zalman and here is their response: (snips)

2) It is also true that the CNPS9500 AT will function better if it is positioned in an upright position (vertically with the base down) than when it is positioned horizontally. However, the difference in thermal performance resulting from the orientation (vertical/horizontal) of the cooler is minimal, and we believe that it will hardly make a difference even if you lay the tower on its side.

Therefore you do not have to lay down the tower on its side because it will not make great difference in thermal performance by doing so.


A while back, I was searching the literature on heat pipes and found an article about pipe orientation. The article claimed that orientation was important as the heat flux through the pipe neared the upper limit. Once the pipe is pushed beyond it's limit, it's ability to conduct heat efficiently goes into the crapper. That would be real bad for your CPU.
May 22, 2006 4:49:53 AM

Its good to know that it will work upright or sidways...

I thought that heat was just transferd from the CPU via conduction (the metal itself) and convection (the liquid inside the pipe). And that these two principles of heat transfer do not rely on gravity.

Anybody out there tempted to cut up a zalman heat pipe to see whats inside? ??
May 22, 2006 7:59:57 AM

I asked this question awhile back. I guess this is the 1st time I've seen the answer to this question.

Interesting to know. :D 

I did have a feeling that it used some kind of liquid that would turn to vapor to help transfer heat. So it does make logical sense that it would work best when it sits upwrite.

But seeing they say its minimal difference, kinda defeats the purpose of using fuild in the heat pipes... but owell, nice to know anyways.
May 22, 2006 9:05:06 AM

Quote:
Its good to know that it will work upright or sidways...

I thought that heat was just transferd from the CPU via conduction (the metal itself) and convection (the liquid inside the pipe). And that these two principles of heat transfer do not rely on gravity.

Anybody out there tempted to cut up a zalman heat pipe to see whats inside? ??



I would not recommend it.

The chemical coolant may be very hazardous.
May 22, 2006 12:42:47 PM

Quote:
Anybody out there tempted to cut up a zalman heat pipe to see whats inside? ??


I would not recommend it.

The chemical coolant may be very hazardous.

It could be a hazardous compound, that's true. But if you look at the literature, most heat pipes running in the temperature range of CPUs, GPUs, etc., use water, acetone, ethanol, etc. And, yes, I'm tempted but not enough to trash my HSF, so I just surf the literature for my tech fix.
May 22, 2006 1:08:48 PM

Most heatpipes on HSF assemblies contains a type of ammonia. It works by transfering the heat to the coolest side (the radiator side) and condenses releasing the heat and the fluid goes back through the wick to the heatsink and repeats the cycle.
May 22, 2006 1:32:44 PM

Quote:
Most heatpipes on HSF assemblies contains a type of ammonia. It works by transfering the heat to the coolest side (the radiator side) and condenses releasing the heat and the fluid goes back through the wick to the heatsink and repeats the cycle.


Most? Not according to the literature I've read. In the first place, you have to qualify the working heat range of a device and the required heat flux. That will get you into a range of liquids that will work. It is very application-specific but ammonia is by no means a universal heat pipe liquid.
May 22, 2006 2:06:03 PM

Quote:
Most heat pipes on HSF assemblies contains a type of ammonia. It works by transferring the heat to the coolest side (the radiator side) and condenses releasing the heat and the fluid goes back through the wick to the heatsink and repeats the cycle.


Most? Not according to the literature I've read. In the first place, you have to qualify the working heat range of a device and the required heat flux. That will get you into a range of liquids that will work. It is very application-specific but ammonia is by no means a universal heat pipe liquid.


Water, ethanol and mercury are sometimes used in heat pipes.

Mercury is very dangerous and "industrial" ethanol ( aka denatured alcohol ) is also highly flammable and toxic to humans and animals. So it's not the stuff you want to be playing with.

Acetone and other substances that might be used in heat pipes are not exactly safe either, so I wouldn't mess with them.
May 22, 2006 4:05:22 PM

Quote:
Most? Not according to the literature I've read. In the first place, you have to qualify the working heat range of a device and the required heat flux. That will get you into a range of liquids that will work. It is very application-specific but ammonia is by no means a universal heat pipe liquid.



Water, ethanol and mercury are sometimes used in heat pipes.

Mercury is very dangerous and "industrial" ethanol ( aka denatured alcohol ) is also highly flammable and toxic to humans and animals. So it's not the stuff you want to be playing with.

Acetone and other substances that might be used in heat pipes are not exactly safe either, so I wouldn't mess with them.

From what I've read, use of mercury in heat pipes is pretty rare these days and I can't find anyone in the PC cooling industry that will admit to using it. Yes, all alcohols are toxic, ethanol being the least toxic among them, but remember, we're talking very little liquid in a CPU HSF and the contaminants in denatured ethanol are there at pretty low levels. If you were to cut open a HSF that had denatured ethanol in it and got a few drops on your hands, it would not be a toxicity issue whatsoever. I doubt there would be a flammability issue either. It's not like we're talking about having a large amount of liquid in there. Among the substances you list, mercury is by far the greatest health risk in the perspective of this thread (cutting open a HSF heat pipe to see what's inside). I'm a chemist and I personally wouldn't be the least bit afraid to do it, but I'd do it in a safe manner with proper protective gear, in a hood, etc.
May 22, 2006 5:35:33 PM

Quote:
Most? Not according to the literature I've read. In the first place, you have to qualify the working heat range of a device and the required heat flux. That will get you into a range of liquids that will work. It is very application-specific but ammonia is by no means a universal heat pipe liquid.



Water, ethanol and mercury are sometimes used in heat pipes.

Mercury is very dangerous and "industrial" ethanol ( aka denatured alcohol ) is also highly flammable and toxic to humans and animals. So it's not the stuff you want to be playing with.

Acetone and other substances that might be used in heat pipes are not exactly safe either, so I wouldn't mess with them.

From what I've read, use of mercury in heat pipes is pretty rare these days and I can't find anyone in the PC cooling industry that will admit to using it. Yes, all alcohols are toxic, ethanol being the least toxic among them, but remember, we're talking very little liquid in a CPU HSF and the contaminants in denatured ethanol are there at pretty low levels. If you were to cut open a HSF that had denatured ethanol in it and got a few drops on your hands, it would not be a toxicity issue whatsoever. I doubt there would be a flammability issue either. It's not like we're talking about having a large amount of liquid in there. Among the substances you list, mercury is by far the greatest health risk in the perspective of this thread (cutting open a HSF heat pipe to see what's inside). I'm a chemist and I personally wouldn't be the least bit afraid to do it, but I'd do it in a safe manner with proper protective gear, in a hood, etc.


You're right, but it's better to play it safe and not perform any surgery because you don't know what you'll find when you cut up the heat pipe.

Some coolants are flammable so the sparks from your dremel may start a small fire.

The contents may also be under pressure depending on the temperature of the heat pipe and might be released when you cut or break it open.

The contents may not be extremely toxic but they may be toxic enough to cause health problems or even cause serious harm to children or animals in the vicinity of your surgical table.

Pure ethanol / ethyl alcohol / grain alcohol is toxic but not quite as toxic as the additives mixed with it to turn it into denatured alcohol / industrial ethanol such as methanol, pyridine, benzene and others.
May 22, 2006 7:52:56 PM

Quote:
You're right, but it's better to play it safe and not perform any surgery because you don't know what you'll find when you cut up the heat pipe.


That's not a very adventurous approach.

Quote:
Some coolants are flammable so the sparks from your dremel may start a small fire.


Dremel? There are ways to avoid sparks when cutting.

Quote:
The contents may also be under pressure depending on the temperature of the heat pipe and might be released when you cut or break it open.


Probably so. So you'd want to be ready for that possibility.

Quote:
The contents may not be extremely toxic but they may be toxic enough to cause health problems or even cause serious harm to children or animals in the vicinity of your surgical table.


Kids aren't allowed around my mod table. And the only animals allowed are those that are expendable. Seriously, this is a trivial risk to avoid.

Quote:
Pure ethanol / ethyl alcohol / grain alcohol is toxic but not quite as toxic as the additives mixed with it to turn it into denatured alcohol / industrial ethanol such as methanol, pyridine, benzene and others.


Sure, I already mentioned that - but look at the levels present and the liquid volume in a single Zalman HSF. Unless you plan to drink the contents of about 1,000 Zalman HSF's, this isn't an issue. I thought we were talking about opening one up to see what's inside, not drinking it.

I'm not advocating cutting up your Zalman HSF. What a waste! But if I needed to, I could absolutely, positively guarantee that I could do it in a safe manner. I've done much more dangerous operations hundreds of times and miraculously managed to escape alive. Safety training and the right tools are the keys.
May 22, 2006 11:54:05 PM

Has anyone tried running the 9500 in both postions? (Upright/Sideways in a tower case)

Only info I'd be interested in, is the room temp, case temp, and CPU temp differences, that the technolgoy in cooling works with gravity playing a role.

Heh, I don't care what is inside of the heat pipe. I'd like to know what the min difference is in running it with the force of gravity working with it vs not working at all.

I'm guessing there prolly won't be any difference, especially if the room temp is at or above 80 F.

After talking with a guy who had a Scythe KATANA (heatpipe with a 70 degree tilt 80+F room temp) who said it didn't have a difference when place sideways or upright, I wonder if there would be more of an effect if the room was cooler then 75F. (68-70F room temp was the range I was thinking of to test).

Other then that, I fail to see how the liquid helps any cooling at all if it can't go back and forth from the base to the top. I just think its just part of a marketing scheme, as well as making the product look kewl. :wink:
May 23, 2006 4:27:49 AM

Quote:
Has anyone tried running the 9500 in both postions? (Upright/Sideways in a tower case)
Quote:


Funny you mention that... I recently bought some components to do just such a test. Rather than use a case, my plan is to use a precise thermocouple-controlled heater and measure how much current the heater draws as a measure of how much heat the HSF can remove. So an easy experiment is to look at HSFs in different orientations. It's one of a few things a I are fiddling with in my spare time to try to develop HSF tests that don't require a functional CPU. One of the hard parts is making sure the inlet air is always at constant temp. The basement laboratory is becoming increasingly cluttered. If I can get this test bench running right, I'll tell y'all about it.
May 23, 2006 4:38:11 AM

Sorry what I mean is Acetone not Ammonia. :oops:  :lol: 
May 23, 2006 4:46:47 AM

Quote:
Sorry what I mean is Acetone not Ammonia. :oops:  :lol: 


OK, that makes sense. I admit, I was wondering what temp range ammonia worked in. I worked with ammonia quite a bit in school - really nasty stuff when it's pure - like knock you on your butt nasty. Acetone smells sweet by comparison.
May 23, 2006 4:59:04 AM

Quote:
Sorry what I mean is Acetone not Ammonia. :oops:  :lol: 


OK, that makes sense. I admit, I was wondering what temp range ammonia worked in. I worked with ammonia quite a bit in school - really nasty stuff when it's pure - like knock you on your butt nasty. Acetone smells sweet by comparison.


Ammonia is toxic and corrosive.

Acetone is very flammable ( vapor is explosive ) is an irritant as well as a carcinogen and it breaks down many plastics.
May 23, 2006 4:59:11 AM

Yeah, what I mean was Acetone and this has been discussed here about a month ago. It's used becuase of it's properties and able to boil at low temps. I've read some articles about it and how it's applied to HSF assembly and can't seem to find it.
May 23, 2006 5:17:41 AM

Quote:
Ammonia is toxic and corrosive.

Acetone is very flammable ( vapor is explosive ) is an irritant as well as a carcinogen and it breaks down many plastics.


That's all true, but I've known plant operators that washed their hands daily in acetone throughout their 40 year careers. Without dieing of cancer. I've used it a bunch and try to keep it away from skin contact, but I'm not too worried about it. In general, organic solvents are not the best things to bathe in.
May 23, 2006 6:08:02 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone tried running the 9500 in both postions? (Upright/Sideways in a tower case)
Quote:


Funny you mention that... I recently bought some components to do just such a test. Rather than use a case, my plan is to use a precise thermocouple-controlled heater and measure how much current the heater draws as a measure of how much heat the HSF can remove. So an easy experiment is to look at HSFs in different orientations. It's one of a few things a I are fiddling with in my spare time to try to develop HSF tests that don't require a functional CPU. One of the hard parts is making sure the inlet air is always at constant temp. The basement laboratory is becoming increasingly cluttered. If I can get this test bench running right, I'll tell y'all about it.


Run this experiment by me again please Materials Methods etc etc. Please include the literature you have read: scientific journals with references etc etc or even links to web pages with hear say?

My hypothesis is that the HSF is just a pipe that conducts heat and it is solid in nature (Has no liquid in the midle) (may be holow with just air). Seeming nobody has actually cut one of these 9500s up and drained the liquid out.... Nobody can disprove or prove my hoypthesis. Hearsay is hearsay untill I see it with my own eyes.

IF the 9500 works both sideways, upsidedown, upright etc... Wouldnt that just suport my hypothesis... "that there is infact no liquids inside these pipes"?

Or would it sugest that gravity does not play a role in heat transfer as I mentioned earlier?
May 23, 2006 6:32:19 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone tried running the 9500 in both postions? (Upright/Sideways in a tower case)

Funny you mention that... I recently bought some components to do just such a test. Rather than use a case, my plan is to use a precise thermocouple-controlled heater and measure how much current the heater draws as a measure of how much heat the HSF can remove. So an easy experiment is to look at HSFs in different orientations. It's one of a few things a I are fiddling with in my spare time to try to develop HSF tests that don't require a functional CPU. One of the hard parts is making sure the inlet air is always at constant temp. The basement laboratory is becoming increasingly cluttered. If I can get this test bench running right, I'll tell y'all about it.


Run this experiment by me again please Materials Methods etc etc. Please include the literature you have read: scientific journals with references etc etc or even links to web pages with hear say?

My hypothesis is that the HSF is just a pipe that conducts heat and it is solid in nature (Has no liquid in the midle) (may be holow with just air). Seeming nobody has actually cut one of these 9500s up and drained the liquid out.... Nobody can disprove or prove my hoypthesis. Hearsay is hearsay untill I see it with my own eyes.

IF the 9500 works both sideways, upsidedown, upright etc... Wouldnt that just suport my hypothesis... "that there is infact no liquids inside these pipes"?

Or would it sugest that gravity does not play a role in heat transfer as I mentioned earlier?

If I thought you were really serious, I'd share some literature with you. If you doubt that a heap pipe is hollow, all you need to do is take a pair of pliers and partially crush a heat pipe. Then try that with a piece of solid copper rod. I wish I could take you more seriously. The literature on heat pipes is extensive - Google it out.
May 23, 2006 8:29:49 AM

Quote:
My hypothesis is that the HSF is just a pipe that conducts heat and it is solid in nature (Has no liquid in the midle) (may be holow with just air). Seeming nobody has actually cut one of these 9500s up and drained the liquid out.... Nobody can disprove or prove my hoypthesis. Hearsay is hearsay untill I see it with my own eyes.

IF the 9500 works both sideways, upsidedown, upright etc... Wouldnt that just suport my hypothesis... "that there is infact no liquids inside these pipes"?

Or would it sugest that gravity does not play a role in heat transfer as I mentioned earlier?


Errr... read the very 1st post or the guy that started the thread.

Ummm.. or if your too lazy to do that, let me do a short quote:

Quote:
1) The heat pipes of ZALMAN coolers are indeed filled with coolant. However, we cannot disclose the exact information about the coolant.
May 23, 2006 9:21:07 AM

Aren't most nail varnish removers acetone based?
May 23, 2006 5:28:17 PM

Quote:
Aren't most nail varnish removers acetone based?


Acetone, MEK, not sure what all is used these days. Certainly a mixture. If I get time, I'll do some searching.
May 24, 2006 12:36:57 AM

I know they SAY its full of liquid! YES you can shove quotes in my face all day!

I JUST dont belive it untill some dude (not me) cuts open a 9500 and I get to see liquids oozeing out.... THEN I WILL belive.

Im just thinking it must be quite difficult to solder tubes of coper with liquid splashing around inside the tubes!

AND you guys are sugesting that these liquids are ethanol or acetone are these liquids not highly flamabe? Are soldering ions not hot in the zalman factory?? How do you guys think they fabricate these 9500s?

Ok no more posts from me untill some dude takes a pic of a cut up 9500!
May 24, 2006 1:10:51 AM

Quote:
I know they SAY its full of liquid! YES you can shove quotes in my face all day!

I JUST dont belive it untill some dude (not me) cuts open a 9500 and I get to see liquids oozeing out.... THEN I WILL belive.

Im just thinking it must be quite difficult to solder tubes of coper with liquid splashing around inside the tubes!

AND you guys are sugesting that these liquids are ethanol or acetone are these liquids not highly flamabe? Are soldering ions not hot in the zalman factory?? How do you guys think they fabricate these 9500s?

Ok no more posts from me untill some dude takes a pic of a cut up 9500!


You'd probably require a video, right? Anyone could cut up a 9500 and pour a liquid into the hollow pipe, right? So a still photo could be easily staged. Tell ya what: send me a 9500 and I'll cut it for you.

I have not witnessed nor read how Zalman fabricates their heat pipes. I would not be surprised if they spec them and contract the work. Typically, if you need to work with heat and flammable solvents, you do so in an inert atmosphere, like nitrogen. It depends in part upon the flash point of the solvent. Regarding heating a copper pipe that contains a liquid, one solution is to seal one end first, cool that end in something like liquid nitrogen, add liquid, then seal the other end while the liquid-containing end is still immersed in LN2. This plan has the added bonus of the LN2 being a supply of your inert atmosphere. It's not rocket science, but according to the literature, it is important to have good control of the process.

If you want to really get into this, check out the literature on the internal treatment of the heat pipes. That's the shiznit.
May 24, 2006 1:11:42 AM

Quote:
I know they SAY its full of liquid! YES you can shove quotes in my face all day!

I JUST dont belive it untill some dude (not me) cuts open a 9500 and I get to see liquids oozeing out.... THEN I WILL belive.

Im just thinking it must be quite difficult to solder tubes of coper with liquid splashing around inside the tubes!

AND you guys are sugesting that these liquids are ethanol or acetone are these liquids not highly flamabe? Are soldering ions not hot in the zalman factory?? How do you guys think they fabricate these 9500s?

Ok no more posts from me untill some dude takes a pic of a cut up 9500!




Quote:

A typical heat pipe consists of sealed hollow tube made of a thermoconductive metal such as copper or aluminium. The pipe contains a relatively small quantity of a "working fluid" or coolant (such as water, ethanol or mercury) with the remainder of the pipe being filled with vapour phase of the working fluid, all other gases being excluded.



Yes they really do contain a liquid coolant but it is not under pressure. The heat pipe works by allowing the liquid inside to change states from a liquid to a gas and back to a liquid.

My understanding is, they exclude all other gases from the tube, pretty much seal it by crushing it then solder the tip to complete the seal.

You can prevent normally flammable substances from igniting by controlling temperature, pressure and by removing oxygen from the area as well as ignition sources.
May 24, 2006 1:14:00 AM

Quote:
I know they SAY its full of liquid! YES you can shove quotes in my face all day!

I JUST dont belive it untill some dude (not me) cuts open a 9500 and I get to see liquids oozeing out.... THEN I WILL belive.

Im just thinking it must be quite difficult to solder tubes of coper with liquid splashing around inside the tubes!

AND you guys are sugesting that these liquids are ethanol or acetone are these liquids not highly flamabe? Are soldering ions not hot in the zalman factory?? How do you guys think they fabricate these 9500s?

Ok no more posts from me untill some dude takes a pic of a cut up 9500!


You'd probably require a video, right? Anyone could cut up a 9500 and pour a liquid into the hollow pipe, right? So a still photo could be easily staged. Tell ya what: send me a 9500 and I'll cut it for you.

I have not witnessed nor read how Zalman fabricates their heat pipes. I would not be surprised if they spec them and contract the work. Typically, if you need to work with heat and flammable solvents, you do so in an inert atmosphere, like nitrogen. It depends in part upon the flash point of the solvent. Regarding heating a copper pipe that contains a liquid, one solution is to seal one end first, cool that end in something like liquid nitrogen, add liquid, then seal the other end while the liquid-containing end is still immersed in LN2. This plan has the added bonus of the LN2 being a supply of your inert atmosphere. It's not rocket science, but according to the literature, it is important to have good control of the process.

If you want to really get into this, check out the literature on the internal treatment of the heat pipes. That's the shiznit.


:trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy:

You beat me by a few seconds kind sir! :-D
May 24, 2006 3:01:12 AM

Quote:
My understanding is, they exclude all other gases from the tube, pretty much seal it by crushing it then solder the tip to complete the seal.


I think that's true for small, less expensive heat pipes. I've seen some of the pipes used on satellites that border on artwork - the metal finish work that is. No simple crush and solder jobs there. And just think - our tax dollars paid for them!
May 24, 2006 3:31:33 AM

Quote:
My understanding is, they exclude all other gases from the tube, pretty much seal it by crushing it then solder the tip to complete the seal.


I think that's true for small, less expensive heat pipes. I've seen some of the pipes used on satellites that border on artwork - the metal finish work that is. No simple crush and solder jobs there. And just think - our tax dollars paid for them!


Aye, I was referring to mass produced heat pipes for consumer applications.

Other applications sometimes require specialized manufacturing.

If you need to cool the components of a KH-17 then you will obviously need specialized heat pipes like the kind you described.
May 24, 2006 5:39:00 AM

Quote:
I know they SAY its full of liquid! YES you can shove quotes in my face all day!

I JUST dont belive it untill some dude (not me) cuts open a 9500 and I get to see liquids oozeing out.... THEN I WILL belive.

Im just thinking it must be quite difficult to solder tubes of coper with liquid splashing around inside the tubes!

AND you guys are sugesting that these liquids are ethanol or acetone are these liquids not highly flamabe? Are soldering ions not hot in the zalman factory?? How do you guys think they fabricate these 9500s?

Ok no more posts from me untill some dude takes a pic of a cut up 9500!


So that will be the only proof you need?

How sad...

And it has to be oozing out of it? :roll:

More then likely, you may not even see hardly any fluid when you cut up a heatpipe. It is a very small amount in the heatpipes according to the articles I read.

Do you understand how the heatpipes actually work?

If no one explained it to you, here someting from AMD...

Quote:
Convection: Heat Pipes
Heat pipes, which are small, sealed, and curved copper tubes, offer perhaps the most effective way to increase the thermal performance of a conventional heatsink at a reasonable price.

They are self-contained, phase-change cooling devices that take advantage of changes in heat to convert a liquid – called the “working liquid” – into vapor and then back again. When a liquid changes phase to a vapor, the vapor absorbs heat, is transported away from the heat source, and then releases heat when it condenses back into liquid. The heat released is dissipated and the cycle repeats.

The easiest way to explain heat pipes is to break them into three sections, the evaporator section, the adiabatic section, and the condenser section:

* In the evaporator section, the working fluid is heated to its boiling point and converted into a vapor that travels along the adiabatic section and on to the condenser section
* Because the vapor holds almost all the heat while moving from one end of the pipe to another, the adiabatic section is named for a process in which little heat is gained or lost
* In the condenser section the vapor is condensed back into liquid form, the heatsink dissipates the released latent heat, and the capillary wicking surface returns the working fluid back to the evaporator section

The AMD Athlon™ 64 FX processor employs a futuristic four-heat-pipe design that increases the effectiveness of the heatsink without creating more noise and without significantly adding to its overall size or weight. In particular, this design allows enthusiasts to play extreme games without overtaxing the system.
May 24, 2006 10:37:47 PM

I did find that link before I posted, but decided not to link it from Wikipedia, but it still is good info. Thought I'd quote info from AMD's HSF with heatpipes...

Heh.. I guess my thought is still stuck on:

Quote:
I get to see liquids oozeing out..


Just food for thought for anyone...

If you ever cooked with a frying pan, this would give you a great idea on how the amount of liquid is used to compare it to heatpipes.

When you get a frying pan very hot, and just sprinkle water on it, the droplets immediately boils and turns to vapor.

If you drop a pot of water on a frying pan, it will cool it off, but takes alot longer to boil and totally vaporate. Instead, this totally kills the "working liquid" efficiency of how the vapor carries the heat.

The vapor is what carries the high amount of heat from HS, which would travel faster. If you remove the liquid, it should transfer heat slower. I hope this thought shows the reason why I say you will see a very small or no liquid in a heat pipe.

And that is the very reason why I was asking back and now if the postions of the HS vs gravity effects it.

However, I don't think it would impact it that much (after reading some articles), and with newer processors running less wattage, the heat would be easier to deal with.
May 24, 2006 11:24:11 PM

All you need to do is Request a "MSDS" sheet for the product. Just say you need to dispose of a couple, and want to do it correctly. They are Required By Law to supply it to you. I will list what inside, but not specifics related to trade secrets.
May 25, 2006 5:05:31 AM

Quote:
All you need to do is Request a "MSDS" sheet for the product. Just say you need to dispose of a couple, and want to do it correctly. They are Required By Law to supply it to you. I will list what inside, but not specifics related to trade secrets.


Great plan! I'd be interested to see the results of that request. They might tell you to return them.

BTW, "MSDS" stands for "materials safety data sheet" so please don't double up on "sheet". That's like another pet peeve of mine: "degrees Kelvin".
May 25, 2006 7:51:54 AM

Quote:
All you need to do is Request a "MSDS" sheet for the product. Just say you need to dispose of a couple, and want to do it correctly. They are Required By Law to supply it to you. I will list what inside, but not specifics related to trade secrets.


Great plan! I'd be interested to see the results of that request. They might tell you to return them.

BTW, "MSDS" stands for "materials safety data sheet" so please don't double up on "sheet". That's like another pet peeve of mine: "degrees Kelvin".


They may or may not choose to provide the MSDS.

It is currently 287 Kelvin :-D
May 25, 2006 4:17:40 PM

US Law mandates that they provide it on request. It part of EPA requirments. I worked in a R&D lab for 22yrs, I used MSDS sheets all the time. I was level 4 HasMat trained. Did you know Super Glues solvent is Nitro Methane. So if you glue your fingers together just soak them in nitro, it will release.
May 25, 2006 4:43:35 PM

Quote:
US Law mandates that they provide it on request. It part of EPA requirments. I worked in a R&D lab for 22yrs, I used MSDS sheets all the time. I was level 4 HasMat trained. Did you know Super Glues solvent is Nitro Methane. So if you glue your fingers together just soak them in nitro, it will release.



It does indeed :-D

Some foreign companies don't give a rat's a$$ however.

Technically they are required to make the MSDS available but some may choose not to do so. They might hand it over if you threaten to call the EPA.

Nitromethane is a solvent but it's also explosive under the right conditions.
May 25, 2006 6:53:20 PM

Quote:
US Law mandates that they provide it on request. It part of EPA requirments. I worked in a R&D lab for 22yrs, I used MSDS sheets all the time. I was level 4 HasMat trained. Did you know Super Glues solvent is Nitro Methane. So if you glue your fingers together just soak them in nitro, it will release.



It does indeed :-D

Some foreign companies don't give a rat's a$$ however.

Technically they are required to make the MSDS available but some may choose not to do so. They might hand it over if you threaten to call the EPA.

Nitromethane is a solvent but it's also explosive under the right conditions.

Bingo on all counts. I've seen some creative MSDSs from time to time. For example, calling a chemical by a trade name rather than it's known and proper name to protect trade secret. Sometimes the key is found in the patent literature but smart folks have cloaking devices. Sure you want to wash your hands with nitro?
May 25, 2006 7:14:00 PM

Quote:
US Law mandates that they provide it on request. It part of EPA requirments. I worked in a R&D lab for 22yrs, I used MSDS sheets all the time. I was level 4 HasMat trained. Did you know Super Glues solvent is Nitro Methane. So if you glue your fingers together just soak them in nitro, it will release.



It does indeed :-D

Some foreign companies don't give a rat's a$$ however.

Technically they are required to make the MSDS available but some may choose not to do so. They might hand it over if you threaten to call the EPA.

Nitromethane is a solvent but it's also explosive under the right conditions.

Bingo on all counts. I've seen some creative MSDSs from time to time. For example, calling a chemical by a trade name rather than it's known and proper name to protect trade secret. Sometimes the key is found in the patent literature but smart folks have cloaking devices. Sure you want to wash your hands with nitro?


:-D

Not me.
May 26, 2006 1:00:40 AM

Quote:
Sure you want to wash your hands with nitro?


errr.. just don't clap? :oops: 
May 26, 2006 7:11:51 AM

Quote:
Sure you want to wash your hands with nitro?


errr.. just don't clap? :oops: 



I would advise against handling it.

Besides, you shouldn't be able to get it period.
May 26, 2006 1:40:34 PM

Ohhh I see now Its a tiny tiny amout of liquid that I might not be able to see "oozing out"! Of course! Opps it evaporated so fast i just didnt quite manage see it!

One more question? Do you think that Zalman use LN2 to pump out those 9500s? Do you know how hard and how dangerous it is to work with LN2! Do you know how hard it is to maintin oxygen levels in a room full of LN2? You should look up the MSDS of the LN2 while you look up the MSDS of the 9500s.

Hrmz MSDS for 9500, shall we look under "z" for zalman or "h" for heat pipes?

Ok I admint what wikpedia says is true a heat pipe can be constructed and yes it can conduct heat very well and yes it has its applications.

Wikpedia also says that heat pipe technology is an expensive way to goand I quote. "This method is expensive and usually used when space is tight (as in small form-factor PC's), or absolute quiet is needed (computers used in audio production studios during live recording).

Do you think zalman would make these liquid filled heat pipes on the 9500s and sell them for only 60 bucks?? Wouldnt it be cheaper for zalman to make the 9500s with solid bits of copper? Do you ever think Zalman are just "marketing" a product and just using jargon and hype to sell?

Im still waiting for my cross section of a 9500 its been over a week now looking foward to some REAL results. And yes a picture will surfice for my means however, video would be better. :) 
May 26, 2006 2:45:06 PM

ok, i just have to chime in here. a couple of points for you.

1. Most obvious point. Why would they email the OP SAYING that they are filled with liquid and then not tell them what it is filled with because it is a trade secret? If in fact they are solid copper, hy not just say that they are solid copper?

2. Why would they change their design from the older 7700 series with the solid copper base to these solid copper "pipes"?

3. Liquid Nitrogen is not that hard to work with (use it at work). You just have to be careful. and BTW I wouldnt want to be in a room that is filled with liquid nitorgen.

4. All major Heatsink manufactures are making heatsinks with heatpipes. AMD ships their factory heatsinks with heatpipes now. are they all lying to us?

5. Go spend the $60 yourself, cut it open, and find out. Prove us all wrong.

I am not trying to be rude in this post at all. Just stating a few things to think about.

Cheers!

p.s. i myself have a 9500
May 26, 2006 3:31:14 PM

Quote:
Sure you want to wash your hands with nitro?


errr.. just don't clap? :oops: 



I would advise against handling it.

Besides, you shouldn't be able to get it period.

I haf my vays...
May 26, 2006 4:25:41 PM

Quote:
Sure you want to wash your hands with nitro?


errr.. just don't clap? :oops: 



I would advise against handling it.

Besides, you shouldn't be able to get it period.

I haf my vays...


I'm sure :-D

:lol: 

Are you former SAC? Don't tell me if I do not have a need to know.
May 26, 2006 4:37:56 PM

Quote:
Are you former SAC? Don't tell me if I do not have a need to know.


I still have my sac, if you must know (checking undies).

Or did you mean sac of sht?
May 26, 2006 5:10:04 PM

Quote:
Are you former SAC? Don't tell me if I do not have a need to know.


I still have my sac, if you must know (checking undies).

Or did you mean sac of sht?


Negative, negative.

As far as I am concerned there is only one SAC.

Of course SAC no longer exists.
!